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theangryenchilada
Jun 30, 2004, 5:44 AM
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In reply to: duude. have you seen my fingers? HA!
seen them? ive gently caressed them!
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 30, 2004, 5:48 AM
Post #102 of 140
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In reply to: In reply to: The only people who feel a need to call a pinkpoint a red point are the ones looking for finacial gain or an ego boost. I will stick with the original definitions. ESAD, tard. go back to your alpine routes and stop talking about things you dont understand. dont you have bushes to sling on your 4th class epics?
You are probably just like the typical 5.14 sporto with an attitude and no balls. I see them all the time, they are the ones that show up at a gimme 12c and do roshambo to see who gets to put the draws in. One guy loses and of course he has to put the draws in, "what a bummer."
These guys ended up sitting there and waiting for someone else to put the draws in so that they could both try to “onsight” it.
As far as I am concerned that is weak and I will continue to do their route in my approach shoes just to spite them.
Friggin pansies that are so insecure that they could not deal with calling their sends pinkpoints.
And then they couldn't even leave it at that, now they are trying to redefine fixed gear to include quickdraws. Laughable.
It use to be that sport climbers like this did not like Mount Charleston. Times change, I guess.
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curt
Jun 30, 2004, 6:01 AM
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In reply to: ....balding old fart nutbag gift-wrapper.....
Flattery will get you everywhere. And, you obviously have a way with words. :D
Curt
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ikefromla
Jun 30, 2004, 6:30 AM
Post #104 of 140
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In reply to: It use to be that sport climbers like this did not like Mount Charleston. Times change, I guess. |
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 30, 2004, 7:09 AM
Post #105 of 140
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Don't flatter yourself, My comments were not directed at you in particular.
If you pre-dated the change in terminology, you would probably feel different about it.
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ikefromla
Jun 30, 2004, 7:45 AM
Post #106 of 140
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In reply to: Don't flatter yourself, My comments were not directed at you in particular. If you pre-dated the change in terminology, you would probably feel different about it. |
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 30, 2004, 8:10 AM
Post #107 of 140
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At the Hood I am happy enough to clip pre-placed draws. ie the multi year project, ten years ago.
My point is that your not always climbing at your limit and placing draws can be good training and motivation, especially if it matters to you.
I will go back there eventually, probably next summer. Hopefully see you then, I will most likely be parked on the groove.
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dredsovrn
Jun 30, 2004, 12:39 PM
Post #108 of 140
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My buddy and I left a few draws in the most difficult section of a .12b at the end of the night. Came back the next day and someone had taken them. Won't do that again.
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theangryenchilada
Jun 30, 2004, 5:21 PM
Post #109 of 140
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In reply to: You are probably just like the typical 5.14 sporto with an attitude and no balls. I see them all the time, they are the ones that show up at a gimme 12c and do roshambo to see who gets to put the draws in. One guy loses and of course he has to put the draws in, "what a bummer." Friggin pansies that are so insecure that they could not deal with calling their sends pinkpoints.
of course! why do i have to be mr. pink. cant i be mr black?
just curious, but do you even know the history of the term redpoint? go do some research on kurt albert and where the term came from and then we'll see if you continue in your ignorant rhetoric.
im sure that you are a nice guy, a good climber, and have some interesting stories that i would love to hear. why dont you tell us some of those and stop this semantics argument. i know im just as guilty and im going to try to swear that this is my last post on this dreaded topic.
BTW, have you called sharma yet to tell him hes a "friggin pansey?" or the huber brothers? or lynn hill? or john long?
by your logic, you should...
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 30, 2004, 5:59 PM
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All the people you mention are super strong and motivated. I would imagine none of them would deny that there is a difference in difficulty between a pinkpoint and a redpoint. People change the definitions, and some people seem to claim that changes reality?
Do you really think that the strongest climbers are the ones who decided to call a pinkpoint a redpoint? I wouldn’t think so based on the ones that I have met. I think it was changed on the basis of what looks good on the front page of a magazine.
You notice how on el cap now, they are calling trad gear pinkpoints, redpoints?
From reading on the origins of a rotpunk, the only definition that I can come to is that it means no hanging on intermediate anchors. I don’t see what that has much to do with how the word redpoint was used in the states.
This is just another example of grade inflation. Which is better? to get stronger or to redefine things in order to make you appear stronger?
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 30, 2004, 6:00 PM
Post #111 of 140
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All the people you mention are super strong and motivated. I would imagine none of them would deny that there is a difference in difficulty between a pinkpoint and a redpoint. People change the definitions, and some people seem to claim that changes reality?
Do you really think that the strongest climbers are the ones who decided to call a pinkpoint a redpoint? I wouldn’t think so based on the ones that I have met. I think it was changed on the basis of what looks good on the front page of a magazine.
You notice how on el cap now, they are calling trad gear pinkpoints, redpoints?
From reading on the origins of a rotpunk, the only definition that I can come to is that it means no hanging on intermediate anchors. I don’t see what that has much to do with how the word redpoint was used in the states.
This is just another example of grade inflation. Which is better? to get stronger or to redefine things in order to make you appear stronger?
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jt512
Jun 30, 2004, 7:07 PM
Post #112 of 140
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In reply to: I would imagine none of them would deny that there is a difference in difficulty between a pinkpoint and a redpoint.
No experienced climber would deny that redpointing is harder when you have to put up the draws.
In reply to: People change the definitions, and some people seem to claim that changes reality? Do you really think that the strongest climbers are the ones who decided to call a pinkpoint a redpoint? I wouldn’t think so based on the ones that I have met. I think it was changed on the basis of what looks good on the front page of a magazine.
I doubt that anybody changed the definition. I suspect that the definition evolved to conform to what sport climbers actually do and actually value. No one strips their draws off a route after every redpoint attempt. If you make three attempts on a route in a day, at most one of those attempts is going to be a clip-up. Therefore, most successful leads will be with the draws already in place, and most sport climbers consider making the distinction between getting the redpoint on the clip-up ascent and getting it on a subsequent ascent trivial. No one is denying that there is a difference in difficulty; only that few people care anymore. Sport climbing has evolved to value sending the route on lead (which also answers Curt's troll), whether the draws are up or not.
-Jay
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kalcario
Jun 30, 2004, 7:30 PM
Post #113 of 140
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Spring loaded cams and sticky rubber make climbing easier too. So does doing a route in the shade on a warm day. So does training. So do pre hung draws. None of those factors affect the actual difficulty of the route, though, just how easy it is for you to do it.
You could go up there in rollerskates, in the blazing sun, 20 lbs. overweight, carrying the draws...and the grade would still be the same. There's all kinds of things you can do to make the route harder for you to climb. I could call b.s. on every ascent of Astroman since the 70's, since they all used SLC's, which believe me is a much bigger advantage over passive pro than prehung draws on sport routes are.
By your logic you can't claim a redpoint if you carried the draws but skipped a few clips, because (according to you) clipping the draws on is such an integral part of the difficulty of the route that not clipping them lowers the grade.
If I was going to kvetch about rating things subjectively, chalk-up holds and tick marks would be at the top of my list, polished holds (especially on limestone) would be second and morphology (reachiness) would be third. Pre-hung draws pale in comparison to those 3.
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therealdeal
Jun 30, 2004, 8:09 PM
Post #114 of 140
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As usual you can tell who the climbers are, and who the wannabes are...
If you are newer to the sport just kick back and take it all in, and you will eventually learn how it works.
I think I know the route in question...
Its the warm up for the cliff, and its kind of a drag to clean, so please see it as a publc service, enjoy the route, and leave the draws be...and if you take them , then you are a thief and a bad person and you suck.
Its all very simple.
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caughtinside
Jun 30, 2004, 8:14 PM
Post #115 of 140
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Well, after reading all 8 pages of this, I'm glad the issue is settled. :P
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therealdeal
Jun 30, 2004, 8:34 PM
Post #116 of 140
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you actually read all 8 pages?
you've got a stronger stomach than I do!
However, this has been dredged up so many times in different threads that I think I know it by heart....
BTW, the route in question is at a popular area yes, but at a crag that is pretty far out of the way by sporto standards...'cause about the only good argument I can think of for not leaving draws is if they are at a publicly popular area and it could bring undue attention, and therefore access issues, to the climbing venue.
God! only two more hours and I can get out of here and go climbing...
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ikefromla
Jun 30, 2004, 8:41 PM
Post #117 of 140
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Jay, I think I've said this before, but you are officially my hero.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 30, 2004, 8:43 PM
Post #118 of 140
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Walking up to a route and clipping it up on-sight is a style that holds value to me. It's as simple as that.
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ikefromla
Jun 30, 2004, 8:49 PM
Post #119 of 140
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In reply to: Walking up to a route and clipping it up on-sight is a style that holds value to me. It's as simple as that. |
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fredrogers
Jun 30, 2004, 8:57 PM
Post #120 of 140
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In reply to: Walking up to a route and clipping it up on-sight is a style that holds value to me. It's as simple as that.
But Alpnclmbr1, didn't you say that you left draws up on a Mt. Charleston route for 2 years? You sure do talk the talk.
Look, I understand your ideas somewhat. You like the challenge of clipping the bolts as you go. I agree that it's definitely harder and I give much props to the climber who onsights a 13c while hanging the draws.
But is it going to kill you to occasionally do a route with pre-hung draws? Will you feel that cheated? There's lots of sport climbs out there that have draws on them right now as we type...but c'mon...98% of all sport routes do NOT have draws hanging on them at this moment.
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cgailey
Jun 30, 2004, 8:59 PM
Post #121 of 140
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In reply to: In reply to: Walking up to a route and clipping it up on-sight is a style that holds value to me. It's as simple as that. I can't think of many people that would argue with you on that point. But I'll accept my place as a pink polka-dot lycra wearing sporto weenie pansy anyway. :roll:
Ooh...more lycra...I'm getting excited :D
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ikefromla
Jun 30, 2004, 9:03 PM
Post #122 of 140
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In reply to: 98% of all sport routes do NOT have draws hanging on them at this moment. |
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 30, 2004, 9:10 PM
Post #123 of 140
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In reply to: But is it going to kill you to occasionally do a route with pre-hung draws? Will you feel that cheated? There's lots of sport climbs out there that have draws on them right now as we type...but c'mon...98% of all sport routes do NOT have draws hanging on them at this moment.
The two styles are not incompatable.
If I want to do a route without draws, I can find one just about anywhere without any problem.
My hardest grading wise routes all tend to have perma draws on them and I am fine with that.
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therealdeal
Jun 30, 2004, 9:15 PM
Post #124 of 140
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valid point though for sure, about onsighting hanging the draws....feels good....but I know that I'm generally way psyched to see the draws hanging on something.
My hardest onsight I'm pretty sure had draws hanging already, but noone was telling me where to go , so I'm taking it as the OS, not a flash...
maybe I've just totally given in to the Dark Side...
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fredrogers
Jun 30, 2004, 9:21 PM
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Alpnclmbr1, I think I misread some of your posts. For some reason I got it in my head that you were advocating that draws should never be left on routes. So I flamed you a bit. My bad.
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