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reno
Aug 6, 2004, 12:56 AM
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In reply to: I am having trouble understanding the reasons why you would need to back up your belay. Take the knot tying example. So now instead of focusing on the climber you are belaying and proper belay technique, you are now fumbling around tying and untying knots? It seems to me that the KISS principle is very much true for a good belay. Focus on your climber, your belay IS the backup. What other situations would you need to back up a belay??
Jeff:
As Curt mentioned, it *IS* statistically rare that one would need such actions. And if you notice, I didn't say "Do this every time you climb." That's unrealistic. The original question was "How would you do it?" [if it was needed.] Hence, my post.
I failed, it seems, in expressing myself clearly. The knots I suggest tying would be loose, and easy to untie one-handed. I do this often when belaying a top-rope... tie a knot behind the belay device. When lowering, I easily untie them with my left hand. Takes about a second, perhaps two. If your leader is moving so fast that you don't have a second or two when she/he is looking for the next move, then I'd postulate she/he won't fall, and therefore the whole discussion is a moot point. But if your leader is anything like the people I have climbed with, they'll make a move or two, pause to look upward at the next sequence, move again, pause, etc.
But let's take a look at a real-life situation: Touching the Void. Simon was lowering Joe, and started to loose his footing. *IF* he had a knot backup of his lowering system, he *might* have had the option of letting the lower system lock off, then trying to stick an axe, regain his footing, more adequately secure himself, etc. And a belay system and lowering system are very much akin in mechanics, only reversed (sure, there's more to it, but the basics are the same... control of the rope through a friction-creating device.)
I'm not (repeat NOT) saying this would have changed anything. But it *IS* a good mental/hypothetical exercise, and that's the concept of this thread... "Hypothetically speaking, what would you do for XYZ situation...?"
All said and done, it's better to discuss such issues in a forum like this than fumble about, trying to improvise when it's needed.
Thus, my post.
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tenn_dawg
Aug 6, 2004, 12:58 AM
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In reply to: Depends on what you use to make the prussik out of. A prussik doesn't melt if it catches a rappel fall does it?
Catching a rappel fall is considerably different from catching someone at the end of a lead fall, wouldn't you agree? The prussik would only have to catch a rap fall at a very slow speed. Even then, it's not anywhere near 100% effective.
Catching someone at the end of a whipper with a loose prussik that would have to come tight after the belay failed? Nope, not going to happen. At least not reliably.
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jt512
Aug 6, 2004, 1:03 AM
Post #28 of 50
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In reply to: You're looking at it from the point of it's stupid to plan the redundancy, and based on you seeing what's coming up, wormly. The point of the whole topic is back-up, in the case that you DON'T see it coming. Which is how you should always plan things...for the worst possible scenario. Because if you don't, one day maybe the person you're climbing with will have a diabetic attack, (as unlikely as it seems), and you might be caught screwing the pooch because you didn't have any redundant saves. I don't think you're wrong, really...I just think you're not looking at everything in the right sense. Michael
And it's not just diabetes, Wormly. Your partner could suddenly be struck by any number of previously undiagnosed diseases, at any moment, without any warning whatsoever. Diabetes, epilepsy, narcolepsy, schizophrenia, cerebral hemorrhage, sudden cardiac death. This list goes on and on. Do you really think it's safe to ignore this risk?
-Jay
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zozo
Aug 6, 2004, 1:08 AM
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OK Jay,
The diabetic thing might be a stretch, but what if a plane carrying a load of grand pianos loses one out the back and strikes your belayer on the head. Striking a nice c# on the way down?!?!
What if................
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fadeux
Aug 6, 2004, 1:14 AM
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ok, have two belayers, at least 20 feet apart. furthest belayer makes sure its ok, then feeds rope to belayer #2, then #2 feeds it to you. Also, the rope will need to go through a biner at an anchor point at belayer #2, in case #2 gets hit with the piano. Also, if you have more than 2 friends, have someone else top rope you. Actually, while were at it, just stay home and play tekken.
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jt512
Aug 6, 2004, 1:27 AM
Post #31 of 50
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In reply to: ok, have two belayers, at least 20 feet apart.
I'd go with three belayers, 5 feet apart. The belayer furthest from the climber puts a knot in the rope, and passes it to the second belayer, who then unties the knot after the third belayer ties a new one. With this system, the first belayer never has to fiddle with any knots, and you always have a backup knot no more than 10 feet from the belay device. However, this system can still be defeated if one of the belayers comes down with a previously undiagnosed sudden-onset highly contagious disease that is quickly fatal, such as Ebola Zaire.
-Jay
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fadeux
Aug 6, 2004, 1:36 AM
Post #32 of 50
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In reply to: In reply to: ok, have two belayers, at least 20 feet apart. I'd go with three belayers, 5 feet apart. The belayer furthest from the climber puts a knot in the rope, and passes it to the second belayer, who then unties the knot after the third belayer ties a new one. With this system, the first belayer never has to fiddle with any knots, and you always have a backup knot no more than 10 feet from the belay device. However, this system can still be defeated if one of the belayers comes down with a previously undiagnosed sudden-onset highly contagious disease that is quickly fatal, such as Ebola Zaire. -Jay
Come on, 3 belayers? Now you're just being silly...
oh, on a serious note, if my belayer were killed, i probably wouldn't have the mental composure to find my way safely down, i'd honestly probably just panic, and either fall, or stay up there and scream.
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jt512
Aug 6, 2004, 1:38 AM
Post #33 of 50
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ok, have two belayers, at least 20 feet apart. I'd go with three belayers, 5 feet apart. The belayer furthest from the climber puts a knot in the rope, and passes it to the second belayer, who then unties the knot after the third belayer ties a new one. With this system, the first belayer never has to fiddle with any knots, and you always have a backup knot no more than 10 feet from the belay device. However, this system can still be defeated if one of the belayers comes down with a previously undiagnosed sudden-onset highly contagious disease that is quickly fatal, such as Ebola Zaire. -Jay Come on, 3 belayers? Now you're just being silly...
I don't know about "silly," but consdering that the entire belay team could still be wiped out by the right disease, maybe not worth the effort.
-Jay
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fadeux
Aug 6, 2004, 1:41 AM
Post #34 of 50
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yeah, better just stick with gamecube...
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wormly81
Aug 6, 2004, 1:44 AM
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Jay wrote the following
In reply to: Diabetes, epilepsy, narcolepsy, schizophrenia, cerebral hemorrhage, sudden cardiac death. This list goes on and on. Do you really think it's safe to ignore this risk?
Now that you mention it Jay, I think my usual climbing team is very prone to threats from schizophrenia and other mental illness, but then again maybe that is the reason we are hanging off this cliff in the first place.
Jeff
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fletussanguine
Aug 6, 2004, 5:49 AM
Post #36 of 50
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Lol. Wow, I didn't realize what an dumbass my post made me look like until I saw it in quotes. The diabetes thing...yeah. Anyway, I personally wouldn't worry about the back up belay, because hell...worring about that kinda stuff takes most of the fun out of climbing. I was just trying to prove the point that if the guy want a back up belay, it's not stupid, because a backup couldn't ever really hurt you, and if it makes him more comfortable...it's not a bad thing.
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swede
Aug 6, 2004, 11:33 AM
Post #37 of 50
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I have putting some thought into this for three reasons:
1) I do sometimes climb with a guy with serious diabetes.
2) I often take people who hasn´t seen a rope to try climbing and it´s to boring to only belay, so.....
3) Many relatively new climbers tend to not understand the forces involved in catching a (even short) lead fall - which mean that they are thrown off balance and might end up crashing into the rock.
My imperfect solution, which I want more experienced climbers to critic, is to combine the ATC with a body belay. That is:
1) Belay as you normally do with your ATC.
2) Put the rope coming from the ATC around your back and let it run through the belaying carabiner.
I do not know if the braking force is enough, since since testing this belay method probably will hurt a lot.
The backside of the method (supposing it works) is that my left hand often will have to feed the rope through the carabiner and that I therefore can´t feel what the climber is doing as good as normal. It also takes some attention off the climber of course.
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wormly81
Aug 6, 2004, 8:07 PM
Post #38 of 50
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If you climb with a partner who has diabetes then you should be making sure he/she is fine BEFORE climbing. They should alert you immediately if they are not feeling well. Backing up a belay is not a viable answer for those concerns.
When teaching someone to belay its not fair to give them a more complicated system to learn just because you are not comfortable with their belay. If you arent comfortable that they know how to belay properly then they shouldn't be belaying. Take your time to teach them how to belay properly; a second person backing them up is usually par for the course. DO NOT PUT YOUR LIFE ON THE LINE WITH SOME HALFASSED SYSTEM TO BACK UP AN INCOMPETENT BELAYER!
The reason I have been so active in this discussion is because I see this information being used improperly by inexperienced climbers. There is no good to be found in discussing improper belay techniques.
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drector
Aug 6, 2004, 8:25 PM
Post #39 of 50
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Belay with a grigri? The device is the backup.
I don't but it solves the dead belayer issue.
Dave
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gds
Aug 6, 2004, 8:38 PM
Post #40 of 50
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Curt gave the right answer! It isn't worth worrying about.
If you're really worried about this stuff you're better off not climbing.
There are a million "what ifs" and if you take the time to "solve" all of them you'll never have any time to climb.
I'll say that with an experienced, competent belayer I have never worrid about this at all. Too much important stuff upon which to focus.
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dgkula
Aug 9, 2004, 8:58 PM
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Ok folks. Keep in mind, I'm not a guide or a pro.
If I were leading (trad) and something unfortunately rendered my belayer unconscious or otherwise incapable of belaying, I would build and anchor, tie a figure eight on a bight in the lead rope close to my tie-in, clip into the anchor with a sling girth hitched to my belay loop, clip the fig 8 on bight to the anchor, untie from the lead rope, get on rap, unclip the sling and rap down to the belayer, cleaning the gear as I went.
Hopefully this would maximize the amount of rope I would have available to deal with whatever rescue situation I had on my hands (i.e. I would cut the rope at the bottom of the rap to free it with the anchor if necessary).
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norushnomore
Aug 10, 2004, 9:57 AM
Post #42 of 50
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I did have belayer pass out on me.
My belayer took a very nasty lead fall and hit a ledge. After building a quick station, bringing me up, she was in shock and some pain but otherwise looked fine.
We decided to finish our climb (were 4 pitches off the ground and half a pitch from the top). I started climbing, about 20 feet up after calling to watch me and not getting a confirmation I found that she was out hanging off the station by her tie-in.
I would say that the chances are quite high that your belayer might black out. A guy I know almost passed out climbing east buttress of el cap few weeks ago while belaying as well.
Well in my case, TRE saved the day. I pulled hard on the rope so it locked in. I already had a cam at the waist level so I simply lowered onto it keeping the load on the rope and keeping it locked. Long story short I lowered back to my belayer after building a quick station.
Couple slaps and a bit of shaking and she was back. We rappelled down eventually: I lowered her down full rope length to a large ledge and then to the ground. As we found out later she had a fractured heel and apparently placing a weight onto it while belaying produced a pain shock that made her lose consciousness.
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far_east_climber
Aug 10, 2004, 1:38 PM
Post #43 of 50
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I guess you could do some daisy chain knots on the free end so if your belaying failed, the knot may suck up against your device. When the knot does come along your way, you would simply just have to give a light tug and you could carry on belaying. I don't think it's necessary though. Are you backing up yourself in your belaying (because you think you aren't skilled enough?) or are you wanting to back up the actual device/belay biner? Eitherway, do what makes you feel comfortable or your partner.
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dgkula
Aug 10, 2004, 2:23 PM
Post #44 of 50
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If I was leading either sport or trad I would not want knots in the free end of the rope, downstream from the belay device. Imagine trying a desparate clip or trying to pull through a crux, only to hear "Hey, wait a minute, I need to untie one of these knots."
Maybe a better solution is a GriGri if you are really concerned about the control of the belay end of the rope.
Just MHO.
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dutyje
Aug 10, 2004, 2:48 PM
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I like replying to dumb topics instead of working.
If you want a backup for an inattentive belayer:
Have your belayer loop the slack around his neck. If he's not paying attention, he'll be hung :)
If you're worried about an unconscious partner, try this:
Once your partner is sound asleep, clip to your last piece of pro. Rig your ATC, unclip from the pro, lower yourself to the belay, and wake up said partner.
If you're worried about your partner being hit by debris from your fall, make him wear a helmet. I actually always require my belayer to wear a helmet. It makes me feel more comfortable. Also, try not to rip the rock to pieces while you're climbing, it makes the route harder for the next climber.
If you're worried about missile strikes or chemical attacks while you're in the middle of a climb, don't oppress people or discriminate against them for their race, religion, or culture. Make it abundantly clear that you are an advocate of world peace, and that you maintain politically and religiously neutral stances on any sensitive issues. This will minimize your chances of becoming a target when you're trying to send that 5.12.
If you're worried about a natural disaster, be sure to check out your local climbing gym or one of the subpar climbing video games available on-line. Try not to boulder in trailer parks, as these are almost always hit by tornadoes. Make sure your gym is not in a flood zone, and check the weather forecast for any potentially frightening storms that might distract both you and your belayer simultaneously. If you're climbing in California, move, because earthquakes will surely present a problem.
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j_ung
Aug 10, 2004, 2:49 PM
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The belay is the back up and there is no substitute for competency. Regarding the unconcious belayer in the example above, it was competency that saved the day, not some ill-conceived back up.
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jt512
Aug 10, 2004, 7:22 PM
Post #47 of 50
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In reply to: If you want a backup for an inattentive belayer: Have your belayer loop the slack around his neck. If he's not paying attention, he'll be hung :)
Best of Rockclimbing.com nomination.
-Jay
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j_ung
Aug 10, 2004, 7:31 PM
Post #48 of 50
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In reply to: I like replying to dumb topics instead of working. If you want a backup for an inattentive belayer: Have your belayer loop the slack around his neck. If he's not paying attention, he'll be hung :) If you're worried about an unconscious partner, try this: Once your partner is sound asleep, clip to your last piece of pro. Rig your ATC, unclip from the pro, lower yourself to the belay, and wake up said partner. If you're worried about your partner being hit by debris from your fall, make him wear a helmet. I actually always require my belayer to wear a helmet. It makes me feel more comfortable. Also, try not to rip the rock to pieces while you're climbing, it makes the route harder for the next climber. If you're worried about missile strikes or chemical attacks while you're in the middle of a climb, don't oppress people or discriminate against them for their race, religion, or culture. Make it abundantly clear that you are an advocate of world peace, and that you maintain politically and religiously neutral stances on any sensitive issues. This will minimize your chances of becoming a target when you're trying to send that 5.12. If you're worried about a natural disaster, be sure to check out your local climbing gym or one of the subpar climbing video games available on-line. Try not to boulder in trailer parks, as these are almost always hit by tornadoes. Make sure your gym is not in a flood zone, and check the weather forecast for any potentially frightening storms that might distract both you and your belayer simultaneously. If you're climbing in California, move, because earthquakes will surely present a problem.
S2
It would have been higher, but it was obviously unintentional.
:P
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shorty
Aug 10, 2004, 8:46 PM
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OK, let's go high tech. Have the leader wear a full-body air bag suit, similar in concept to the ones used for Mars Rover landings. So if the belayer breaks wind, becomes asphyxiated from the stench, and bites the rope in half from rigor mortis, the leader can:
- jump away from the rock face
- pull the ripcord to inflate the air bags
- bounce down the route in amusement park ride style
Oh, you say, what if the one or more of the air bags don't inflate? Simple -- just wear a second suit and carry a cylinder of compressed air for backup. Only one downside: this ensemble would reduce even Tommy Caldwell to climbing 5.2. Well, maybe 5.2+.
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deleted
Deleted
Aug 10, 2004, 11:58 PM
Post #50 of 50
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shorty --
please don't tell anyone i'm asking this, but ...
when you're climbing, you mean i'm supposed to [i:3c93e54a7a]hold the rope[/i:3c93e54a7a]!!??
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