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thespider
Jun 21, 2006, 12:49 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Things where? At hunters? Or on this site? I think it's a great idea to make a guidebook if there isn't one already. We've already established that it's public land, so I don't see where the problem lies. If nobody wrote guidebooks, because were afraid the areas would see more climbers, they'd be right about that. And they'd also be assholes. I mean no offense by this, but you clearly sound like you are not that familiar with this particular issue, or the areas and it's users past history regarding topics like this.
Mackavus, who showed you hunters? Did they tell you the history? Did they put you in charge of the history and protection of the area? Are you one of the "locals" who took it over in the 90's and changed all the names that the first ascenders and developers created during the 50's and 60's? Is seems to me that you don't understand the issue. There is plenty of public land there. There is plenty of parking. There are a few people that trespass and they will be dealt with by the police, not you. If you do not publish a guide, then there is no way to find hunters rocks without someone telling them how to trespass. We do not have to trespass to visit the area, we do not have to trespass to climb. That is what the issue is. There are a select few who want to keep the area to themselves because they are trespassing. There is so many crags that two groups of climbers could start at either end, work their way in, and not see each other for a week! Not to mention, they are all on PUBLIC land. Once a guide is published, the truth will be shown. Sorry for killing your private climbing spot, maybe you will just have to build your own wall in your backyard, then you don't have to walk up the hill.
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thespider
Jun 21, 2006, 12:55 AM
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In reply to: the spider is anal..... i bet rob would tell you about a fews route if you asked him nicely.... although he's already got the guide written...
I would love to see the guide, I would love to see his routes. Where are they? Can I get the guide in Applachian Outdoors? Online? Email? I want to see the guide, but I would also want to post those things here. I don't want to take away from his business, so I would create my own reviews, directions, etc. but I would love to know the original names or the crags. Does he know? Can anyone tell me for sure?
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jason1
Jun 21, 2006, 1:07 AM
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did you even look for hunters on the route data base
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mackavus
Jun 21, 2006, 2:16 AM
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In reply to: I may be an idiot...
You are most certainly an idiot. I will explain why.
In reply to: Mackavus, who showed you hunters? Did they tell you the history? Did they put you in charge of the history and protection of the area? Are you one of the "locals" who took it over in the 90's and changed all the names that the first ascenders and developers created during the 50's and 60's? Is seems to me that you don't understand the issue. There is plenty of public land there... blah, blah, blah... I'm a douchebag...
Ok first of all, don't even start your shit and begin to attack me. You have no frame of reference here. If you would READ other users posts, and actually ABSORB some information, you might learn a thing or two. This entire stab that you just made at me is being laughed at by anyone familiar with this issue (regardless of their stance) and my involvement with it. Way to make yourself look like an idiot there, A+.
Now, to explain my point, do you think that you are the first person to fight this fight? I can certainly tell you that your not. It might be beneficial to do a little research next time before you are going to go on a crusade to liberate all things public, in order to have as much information as possible.
I was exactly in your shoes 2 years ago, trying to convince people of my view that the directions to Hunter's Rock should be advertised. If you would have looked at the threads listed on the RC.com page for Hunter's, you would have seen my thread. It also would have been good if you would have noticed that "Mackavus" (which is me by the way in case your truly cant read) is the one who is responsible for editing the Hunter's page and adding most of the information you just threw at me (people changing prob. names, etc.). I stopped fighting my fight for several reasons, none of which I am going to list here as you need to learn them on your own it seems. Do not take that statement to mean I am trying to keep Hunter's private and secret. I simply have ceased to participate in this war. Here's a question though: Who put YOU in charge of liberation of the area? Actually, don't answer that. I just realized that if the great God of the sandstone moonrock himself appointed you Grand Liberator General, I don't care.
I made the comment that I did because war is exactly what you are entering into. You must understand that many of the "locals" are not Internet forum users and despise the very thought of exploiting Hunter's. While most of it is public, several people feel that it should be treated entirely as a secret and will go to some pretty serious lengths to keep this ethic. While I am not saying they are right or wrong, I am saying they are adamant. Take that as you will, I do not mean to imply anything by it.
Now, as I said, I am just a spectator here. Leave me out of this. I moved to CO anyway and don't give a flying monkey's ass about that place. The climbing is frickin' great sure, but there is just way too much drama associated with it.
As a final word I will give you an opinion: This fight is not worth it. I actually can't even believe I am on the Internet typing away about this again. It's silly really. Just give up trying to spread the good word of sandstone around, and just climb there like you normally would.
Peace. :righton:
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roclimb
Jun 21, 2006, 2:44 AM
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to the spider,
The only true guidebook for Hunters I have hidden in a secret spot known only by a select few. This secret book known as the sangreal climbing documents is protected by the knights Templar, Priory of Scion, The Free Masons, and a group of perpetually stoned college students at a hunting and fishing fraternity called tau phi delta.
The priory keystone is hidden under the skull fraternity house. However to obtain this you must first find the Cryptex that can be obtained by saying the proper password at Mario and Luegies--you must first order the chicken pesto however. Then take a dump over at Babes diner and the next clue is written in a bathroom stall that will lead you to the next clue under a package of stickie buns at Ye Ole College Diner and a coffee cup at Agapi. The final step, you must find Joe Paternos old whale print pants by rummaging through his Attic--just knock on the door and tell him you want to discuss what REALLY happened at the 1987 Rutgers game and he will let you right in.
Good luck.
~Rob :D :D :D :D
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jason1
Jun 21, 2006, 3:59 AM
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rob.... to much di vinci code..... honestly....
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fixednut
Jun 21, 2006, 5:57 AM
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Don't anybody listen to any of these people.
There is no such thing as "Hunter's". It's a myth - like Shangri-La. I know..I've spent my whole life searching for it and all I ever found was a pile of gravel and an angry man named Earl.
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thespider
Jun 21, 2006, 12:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I may be an idiot... You are most certainly an idiot. I will explain why. In reply to: Mackavus, who showed you hunters? Did they tell you the history? Did they put you in charge of the history and protection of the area? Are you one of the "locals" who took it over in the 90's and changed all the names that the first ascenders and developers created during the 50's and 60's? Is seems to me that you don't understand the issue. There is plenty of public land there... blah, blah, blah... I'm a douchebag... As a final word I will give you an opinion: This fight is not worth it. I actually can't even believe I am on the Internet typing away about this again. It's silly really. Just give up trying to spread the good word of sandstone around, and just climb there like you normally would. Peace. :righton:
Mack, I will climb with you any day, but I will not give up the fight. I'm sorry for years past people have, but I can't. I don't give two shits about the "locals" and they can come and find me, I will tell them to their face. I appreciate the arguments and point of views you have given, and good luck in CO.
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thespider
Jun 21, 2006, 12:57 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I may be an idiot... You are most certainly an idiot. I will explain why. In reply to: Mackavus, who showed you hunters? Did they tell you the history? Did they put you in charge of the history and protection of the area? Are you one of the "locals" who took it over in the 90's and changed all the names that the first ascenders and developers created during the 50's and 60's? Is seems to me that you don't understand the issue. There is plenty of public land there... blah, blah, blah... I'm a douchebag... As a final word I will give you an opinion: This fight is not worth it. I actually can't even believe I am on the Internet typing away about this again. It's silly really. Just give up trying to spread the good word of sandstone around, and just climb there like you normally would. Peace. :righton:
Mack, I will climb with you any day, but I will not give up the fight. I'm sorry for years past people have, but I can't. I don't give two shits about the "locals" and they can come and find me, I will tell them to their face. I appreciate the arguments and point of views you have given, and good luck in CO.
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thespider
Jun 21, 2006, 1:14 PM
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Honestly you people have lost your marbles. Were talking about Hunters and surrounding area rock climbing. Not the Holy Grail, or the Garden of Eden, or sacred burial grounds. There is no need to get permission from the locals to visit it. There is no need to worry about trespassing. There is no need to deny its existence. Who cares if people go there? I want people to go there. I want so many people that I have to get a ticket to climb a crag. I WANT TO WAIT IN LINE! I want to interact and learn from other climbers. I want to see others in action. I don't want to climb alone.
If you all would like me to learn from this site, pick up terminology and ethics, then let me tell you what I have discovered. This is purely from this topic.
Climbers are a lot of things. They are fast reckless drivers. They are moderators of areas. They are heavy drinkers. They litter and deface rocks. They trespass and try to hide the fact that they do. They are arrogant and selfish. If this is what climbing is about, then I don't want to be a climber. It disgusts me to hear what you people are saying. I wonder how the original creators would feel about this topic. Pity we can't ask, we may all be surprised.
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jrathfon
Jun 21, 2006, 3:03 PM
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In reply to: I want so many people that I have to get a ticket to climb a crag. I WANT TO WAIT IN LINE!
Go to the GUNKS! $15 a day.
In reply to: Not to mention, they are all on PUBLIC land.
I seem to remember PMing you the topo with the property line. Like you said, the main area is in private land. The forest service survey (white paint) marks are indeed slightly downhill from incredarete!
Again, I said this on the first or second page. I'm glad you want to single-handedly destroy access to an area, to fuel your own personal god-given sandstone liberator rights.
And I don't think all climbers do said actions. Just climbers are people, and people are idiots (self included), so people (and thus climbers) will do stupid things.
I found the pants, but I'm stuck on the 3rd clue. I learned the secret hand-shake, but I think I have to go through initiation to climb at Hunter's. I guess I am a super greedy a-hole, anti-socialist, though I don't want to keep Hunter's to myself. I did build a wall, but its too lonely.
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jrathfon
Jun 21, 2006, 3:23 PM
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Oh and, here's some topos:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/listArea.php?AreaID=10165
Cleverly disguised in the routes section under another name. All the public land info you could ever want!!
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thespider
Jun 21, 2006, 3:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I want so many people that I have to get a ticket to climb a crag. I WANT TO WAIT IN LINE! Go to the GUNKS! $15 a day. In reply to: Not to mention, they are all on PUBLIC land. I seem to remember PMing you the topo with the property line. Like you said, the main area is in private land. The forest service survey (white paint) marks are indeed slightly downhill from incredarete! Again, I said this on the first or second page. I'm glad you want to single-handedly destroy access to an area, to fuel your own personal god-given sandstone liberator rights. And I don't think all climbers do said actions. Just climbers are people, and people are idiots (self included), so people (and thus climbers) will do stupid things. I found the pants, but I'm stuck on the 3rd clue. I learned the secret hand-shake, but I think I have to go through initiation to climb at Hunter's. I guess I am a super greedy a-hole, anti-socialist, though I don't want to keep Hunter's to myself. I did build a wall, but its too lonely.
Why does everyone feel the need to trespass to climb? Are you all so lazy that you can't walk to the rest of the climbing rocks? Do you have to climb in the "private" area? I am not destroying access to anything public. If the property line does go through hunters, then the access is already restricted. The only thing left to do is show everyone that you can climb without trespassing. If thats what you want to do, help me. Otherwise I think that everyone only wants to keep the private area to themselves and are too lazy to find another crag in public land. I will not stop you from trespassing and climbing in the "private" land. I feel that we should be able to climb there, but thats not going to be fixed anytime soon. So until we can, I will climb in the public area and I encourage everyone to do the same.
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thespider
Jun 21, 2006, 3:34 PM
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In reply to: Oh and, here's some topos: http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/listArea.php?AreaID=10165 Cleverly disguised in the routes section under another name. All the public land info you could ever want!!
Thats what I'm saying, its there to use, I have seen it, I have climbed it. Why, if the directions are posted, is it such an issue? It has been posted for at least a week and there have been no increase in climbers and no word about trespassing. That just proves that you can publish directions without pissing off the "locals". As you can see from the cleverly drawn maps that the rocks are over abundant and in need of identification. So as I start to focus my attention on the public crags, I invite you all to do the same.
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chronicle
Jun 21, 2006, 7:36 PM
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Spider,
You want to start a war, write a guidebook to the area, discuss ethics, etc. but today you started this other thread http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/115050 which discredits everything you have said in this thread.
In reply to: What did you guys buy first? Did you want to buy something else first? What would you suggest to a first time climber on buying gear?
As a new climber, my advice is to tread lightly, learn as much as you can, climb at different areas. But don't start wars, post directions to controversial areas, etc.
In reply to: So always start with shoes and a chalk bag? What if you just want to do rappelling? Do you really need chalk and shoes? I would rather buy gloves at that point. I guess I want to know what to buy first to transcend bouldering and top roping with a little belaying.
This just shows how new you are to this sport.
When I started climbing, I had the same eagerness that you have. Open this local area, write a guidebook, etc. But pissing on local ethics, in not a good way to start into any sport. I encourage you to climb as much as you can, with many different people, in as many different areas as you can. After you have more experience in the sport, you will see how your point-of-view changes and how much local ethics mean to everybody. If you want people to take you seriously, then you are going to need some more experience under your belt.
So keep climbing and climb hard.
Peace
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thespider
Jun 21, 2006, 8:23 PM
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In reply to: Spider, You want to start a war, write a guidebook to the area, discuss ethics, etc. but today you started this other thread http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/115050 which discredits everything you have said in this thread. In reply to: What did you guys buy first? Did you want to buy something else first? What would you suggest to a first time climber on buying gear? As a new climber, my advice is to tread lightly, learn as much as you can, climb at different areas. But don't start wars, post directions to controversial areas, etc. In reply to: So always start with shoes and a chalk bag? What if you just want to do rappelling? Do you really need chalk and shoes? I would rather buy gloves at that point. I guess I want to know what to buy first to transcend bouldering and top roping with a little belaying. This just shows how new you are to this sport. When I started climbing, I had the same eagerness that you have. Open this local area, write a guidebook, etc. But pissing on local ethics, in not a good way to start into any sport. I encourage you to climb as much as you can, with many different people, in as many different areas as you can. After you have more experience in the sport, you will see how your point-of-view changes and how much local ethics mean to everybody. If you want people to take you seriously, then you are going to need some more experience under your belt. So keep climbing and climb hard. Peace
Thanks for the reply and different point of view chronicle. I am new to the sport of climbing. I don't know terminology or understand the ethics of climbers. I don't believe that posting directions to a public space is an issue of just climbers. If you have read this thread in its entirety, you may have noticed that the area is used for more than just climbing, as I've stated earlier. It's a place for hikers, backpackers, botanists, bird watchers, etc. It is more about the selfishness of climbers trying to keep this site to themselves.
My post, that you pulled from a different topic was from the point of view of someone who has none of these items. I have purchased most of the items, but I wanted a second opinion of the order to buy things in. I wanted to know because I can then say that a group of experienced climbers suggested blah blah. Plus the experience of talking about it helps.
As for my point of view changing over hunters, I doubt. As I progress in climbing, I may decide to trespass more, but that does not mean I will think that it is right to determine who can or can't. I understand that the world works that way. There are cliques that you must enter before you are accepted as a trusted person. For example, Gangs. You have to prove yourself worthy to enter a gang, usually by committing a crime. Once that is done, you repeat the process with the next person that wants to be in the gang. Climbers that know about hunters are in the same position. In order to climb you have to be shown by a "gang member" and trespass. You then repeat the process with someone you know, on and on. Eventually so many people know only about trespassing, that the land becomes riddled with drunken idiots and the land owner has a hissy fit. This has happened, everyone in this topic can agree on that.
What is different about me? I will not propagate trespassing idiots. I will show my friends the true Hunters, also known as Rocky Ridge Natural Area. The area that is in majority, out of public lands. An area that is so underdeveloped because trespassing to the illegal area is all anyone knows.
So Yes, I do spit and piss on the local ethics. I think it's bullshit. I will side with the land owner any day and say that people should not be climbing where it is illegal. Thats the law, sorry if you don't like it, but you can move outside the US to sweden if you can't. Sweden has no private land, you are allowed to climb, hike, camp, bike anywhere. Of course this means you can't "own" land and the government can take it back anytime you want. Fortunately we live in the US, where you can own land. If it was me, I would allow people to climb on my private land. It's not me, so we have to respect the owners wishes. Well, as we have seen in the past, the local climbers do not respect the owners wishes. In fact, I think that locals are so worried about being caught trespassing, that the introduction of anyone new to the area could throw off their secret expeditions.
I want to clarify "locals" too. From what I know, most of the "locals" are not from huntington area, or even McAlveys Fort. They are from State College, better known as Penn State! These punks come here in their 20's and think that they are some sort of gift to the area. They climb in the area and then when schooling is done, they leave. In fact, most of the people arguing to keep it secret no longer live in the area. Please, by all means let me know if I'm wrong, anybody.
I feel sorry that you changed your ethics once you started climbing more. Can I ask what you would have done before you started climbing? Why did you give up opening the local area or writing a guide book? Did you become disheartened by the lack of support from your peers? Was it the locals ragging on you that put you off? What changed that made you change? Maybe the rest of these climbers can bottle it and give it to me! HA HA.
Anyway, I certainly respect what your saying, even if I don't agree with it. Once again I appreciate the point of view. I want to do what I feel is right, sometimes you have to break it all down before you can build it up.
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chronicle
Jun 21, 2006, 9:21 PM
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Just for the record, I've followed the post from the beginning, so I've seen everything that is said.
I found Hunters by looking at the PA Gazateer. It really was that easy. I knew the general location and was able to find it no problem. I also knew where the boundary was and only climbed on the public land. I own land and don't like when people trespass on my property, so I would be a hypocrite if I trespassed on another person's property. I don't disagree that directions should be posted. I actually dislike the fact that there are so many areas in the RDB that don't have directions. However, I'm staying away from that debate.
When I spoke about your point of view changing over time, it's not just your point of view about Hunters, but rather your point of view about climbing all together. As you climb in different areas and with more people, you will realize how strong local ethics are in every area. From my experience, when a person travels to another crag, he/she has no problem upholding the local ethics set forth. As a climber matures (matures in the sport, not in life) and climbs in different areas, I think that his/her mindset changes from thinking that:
"The locals are elitists that do things only to serve themselves"
TO
"The locals do these things to protect the resource and secure it for future generations."
I think that you also get the mindset that if you are going to follow local ethics at other crags, then why not your personal crag. So my ethics didn't change, but my mindset did.
The local area that I used to climb at was on public land. I was so excited to find it my first year of climbing. I spent weeks cleaning the routes, making sure it was on public land, etc. However there were some issues. Parking was limited to a parking lot down the road and people had to walk along the road to access the rock. The parking lot was set up for boaters. So the more people I told about the area, the more the parking got filled up. Boaters complained that they had no place to park. People were parking along the road. People were not walking along the road responsibly. In the end, I decided not to post directions for the public because there was a chance that things would only get worse.
The key word is CHANCE. I was completely within my rights to advertise this place to the world. But I didn't want to take the chance that things would get worse and eventually it would be closed to climbing.
The outcome: The initial fascination wore off for a lot of the people, traffic slowed down. The parking situation was no longer a situation, and motorists weren't complaining about people walking on the road. The area is still open to climbing, still on public land, but you won't find any directions or even route descriptions online. If someone else posted directions, I wouldn't be angry, I wouldn't get into a fight about it, but I would try to explain why it might not be a good idea. Really I think that's what is going on here.
As for why I didn't write a guidebook to the different areas I wanted to is simply that I realized I was not qualified to write the guidebook. As a new climber my instincts were, "How hard could this be?" After an initial try I came to the conclusion that in order not to piss everyone off, I would have to invest a lot of time just to get the history, make sure the route names are accurate, etc. Also I know that Rob (roclimb) has a guidebook in the workings, and didn't want to step on his toes. (Still waiting on that guidebook by the way :wink: )
You seem really passionate about climbing and access. That's is great. There are a lot of areas across the US that need passionate, hard working people to help out. That might be a more worthwhile battle to get involved with.
I hope that nothing I said is taken as being hostile or discouraging, because it wasn't meant to be.
Peace
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neuroshock
Jun 21, 2006, 9:22 PM
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In reply to: I want to do what I feel is right, sometimes you have to break it all down before you can build it up.
What you feel is right is completely subjective. The problem at hand is whether what you feel is right is close to what everyone thinks is right.
From this thread, and the other one about gear for a first time climber, I've gotten the sense that you are not an experienced climber. If you were experienced, you wouldn't need anyone else's opinion on what gear to get. If you were experienced, you wouldn't have written, In reply to: I have no issue with that I have posted, I'm not going to research it. If you have seen my posts, you would know I'm new at the terminology, style, and ethics of rock climbing. What I need is the explanation of the wrongs I have done, not just a blatant insult.
Other climbers, some who have climbed at Hunters in the past, some that have climbed elsewhere, and some with more experience than yourself have voiced that they oppose your proposed line of action. Do you believe that your individual beliefs should trump the beliefs of those people in the greater community? Do you believe that you're taking action for the community's good, regardless of whether the community wants you to?
You say you won't research basic terminology in an activity where you may be stirring up a hornet's nest. You say you want explanations. You would demand surveys done. It has become my impression that you tend to put the onus on others instead in investing some time and thoughfulness to figure out the current situation, first.
My comments before about keeping an area low-key due to risk of increased exposure are valid.With increased exposure more people may/will come. If the increase in numbers result in effects that run contrary to the mission of the public land, or increased impact of those existing effects, rules may change. As an extreme example, see Dean Potter's recent ascent of Delicate Arch. Though it was performed in a legally white area (ethically grey area) the NPS has reacted by expliticly forbidding that activity in the future.
If you think there's no risk of negative effects by having increased traffic to a public space, you're wrong.
And as far as what you feel is right, though it's another extreme example and it's apples and oranges, remember that Hitler thought he was right and was acting in the best interests of humanity.
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feanor007
Jun 21, 2006, 9:49 PM
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thespirder:
In reply to: I don't give two shits about the "locals" and they can come and find me, I will tell them to their face.
not good way to make friends and progress as a climber
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the_iceman
Jun 21, 2006, 11:38 PM
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I'm sure I'll be flamed for this but...
Everything I've read pretty much confirms to me, that the "Locals" are against the area being made public, because they don't want people to know that they're trespassing on private land. In that case, I'd say thespirder is absolutely right about "not giving two shits" about them. If it leads to these trespassers being caught and ejected from the private lands, I say that's a positive thing.
I don't see how "local ethics" should be considered binding, when they're obviously, and truly unethical. So what if you cause people who are breaking the law to be caught and stopped? "Ohhh, because they're locals, and it's how they do business around here..."
Yeah, the county commissioner in the county I grew up in, raped a 15 year old girl, and everybody tried to keep it quiet. My father owned the local news-paper, and was the only one with the balls to speak up. He received multiple threats, had his property vandalized, etc. He was obliged to carry a handgun for a little while, but make waves he did.
Despite the "locals" and their Little Dixie "ethics", the word got out, the man was charged, and respect for my father in the area grew exponentially. Because as it turned out, the real majority of locals, DID give a shit. And their "ethics" differed greatly from the small minority who would have hushed him.
Bottom line is this. Sometimes you gotta make waves. Some people might not like it, but but that's usually ones who are doing something wrong.
No, I'm not comparing trespassers to rapists. That's just an example of how there's always going to be somebody trying to keep secrets, (generally to protect themselves, and their illegal activities) who are willing to wage war on anybody who's not going to look the other way.
It's sad that so many are unwilling to go the distance, and (this is just my outside opinion) to justify it to themselves, encourage others to give up as well.
I don't know if the crackdown, on trespassing (trespassing, is illegal!, and unethical) is directly what thespirder is going for, but it will be one of the ripple effects. To which I say "good on him!" Once again, lets keep private lands private, and public lands public!
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thespider
Jun 22, 2006, 1:44 PM
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In reply to: Just for the record, I've followed the post from the beginning, so I've seen everything that is said. When I spoke about your point of view changing over time, it's not just your point of view about Hunters, but rather your point of view about climbing all together. As you climb in different areas and with more people, you will realize how strong local ethics are in every area. From my experience, when a person travels to another crag, he/she has no problem upholding the local ethics set forth. As a climber matures (matures in the sport, not in life) and climbs in different areas, I think that his/her mindset changes from thinking that: "The locals are elitists that do things only to serve themselves" TO "The locals do these things to protect the resource and secure it for future generations."
I do understand protection of an area. I think that most local ethics are right. However, I think that the small group of "locals" from my area are not actually the voice of the actual locals. This is just my opinion and I could be wrong. I also do not speak for the locals, just my point of view. But from my point of view, the locals that are on this site (mostly) do not want to loose access to a climbing spot that is illegal. I think that access is already an issue when your trespassing. If you were not trespassing it would not be illegal and there would be no problem. If only we lived in that world. But we don't, and we need to come up with a solution to a area that ethically should not have visitors. My solution is the rest of the Rocky Ridge area. The other 999 bouldering problems that dwarf the actual private area. I don't know if anyone has walked the ridge line? If they have they would know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, give it a shot and then come talk to me about climbing access.
I do feel that the area should be preserved for future generations, but I disagree that not telling anyone is the best way to do it. For those who don't know, the link trail goes right next to the three sisters section. In fact it has signs to it right on the trail for three sisters. From what I have heard, the natural area is only in three sisters area. What does this mean? Well, recently the new link trail guide came out. It definitely has the trail pass right next the three sisters area. Why is this significant? In order to produce a new link trail guide, the bureau had to of done a impact study of the area. If they thought that the impact would be greater than the natural areas ability to thrive, they would have moved the trail. Thats fact. It just upsets me that people actually think that what they do in their daily life actually has an effect on the earth. Are we so pious that we can control what happens in the world or another? We can't change evolution, it will happen. So trying to keep people out of an area that is public is absurd. It is nothing that should be hide. If a backpacker on the link trail passed three sisters and said, hey that would be a great place to climb! They tell a few friends and they tell a few friends. does that mean that DCNR will shut down the link trail because people discovered a place to climb? Even if traffic becomes heavier, the road dead ends and leads to nothing but a private drive. There is no other traffic there. Your either climbing, hiking the link trail, watching birds, checking plants, of just hiking for the day. The parking areas are abundant. I believe that there are at least three areas to park at least 3 cars. There is also a group camping spot right across the road from the rocky ridge area. That area could accommodate a whole parking lot of cars if needed. In short, I understand the effect on the area, I think that the effect is smaller than anyone imagines.
In reply to: I think that you also get the mindset that if you are going to follow local ethics at other crags, then why not your personal crag. So my ethics didn't change, but my mindset did. The local area that I used to climb at was on public land. I was so excited to find it my first year of climbing. I spent weeks cleaning the routes, making sure it was on public land, etc. However there were some issues. Parking was limited to a parking lot down the road and people had to walk along the road to access the rock. The parking lot was set up for boaters. So the more people I told about the area, the more the parking got filled up. Boaters complained that they had no place to park. People were parking along the road. People were not walking along the road responsibly. In the end, I decided not to post directions for the public because there was a chance that things would only get worse. The key word is CHANCE. I was completely within my rights to advertise this place to the world. But I didn't want to take the chance that things would get worse and eventually it would be closed to climbing.
I think your talking rights versus responsibility. You had the right to post directions, but you also had the responsibility to protect the area from a large influx of people. You had the right to tell people where it was, but you also had the responsibility to tell them the issues of the area (parking, boats, trailers). We have the right to say what we want, but we also have a responsibility to think about what our actions will do. I have the right to post directions, but the responsibility to make sure that it will not negatively affect the community. My opinion is that it will not affect the community in any negative way, well except for the locals who will still want to trespass and may get caught. But in my opinion ignoring the locals and posting directions is what I think is best for the community.
In reply to: The outcome: The initial fascination wore off for a lot of the people, traffic slowed down. The parking situation was no longer a situation, and motorists weren't complaining about people walking on the road. The area is still open to climbing, still on public land, but you won't find any directions or even route descriptions online. If someone else posted directions, I wouldn't be angry, I wouldn't get into a fight about it, but I would try to explain why it might not be a good idea. Really I think that's what is going on here. As for why I didn't write a guidebook to the different areas I wanted to is simply that I realized I was not qualified to write the guidebook. As a new climber my instincts were, "How hard could this be?" After an initial try I came to the conclusion that in order not to piss everyone off, I would have to invest a lot of time just to get the history, make sure the route names are accurate, etc. Also I know that Rob (roclimb) has a guidebook in the workings, and didn't want to step on his toes. (Still waiting on that guidebook by the way :wink: )
Of course your right. After an initial look at the creation of a guide book, I know I am not qualified to so it. However I think that a collaborative effort by local climbers and dharmatreez's drawings could create a beautiful guide to the area. Nothing fancy, but a few pages that describes the local area, it's issues, and it's rewards. If we try to educate people on the private/public issue, then more people can choose to go to the public areas. If we only tell people it's illegal to go than even more people will want to go. for example, how much fun was it to drink before you were 21? How about after you turned 21? I don't understand why, but something that is illegal is much more exciting that something that is not. Just human nature I guess. Maybe the locals don't want to climb in the public areas because it is not as exciting? Who knows.
In reply to: You seem really passionate about climbing and access. That's is great. There are a lot of areas across the US that need passionate, hard working people to help out. That might be a more worthwhile battle to get involved with. I hope that nothing I said is taken as being hostile or discouraging, because it wasn't meant to be. Peace
Nothing you have said has offended or discouraged me. I take pride in the fact that we can have a debate that does not have to end up in slander. Thank you for being a human being with me. Saying that, I will apologize to everyone for my first post. Although it did strike a lot of controversy and discussion, it was in bad taste and obnoxious. Peace.
If we as climbers choose not to trespass in the private area, and there are still problems with the area (drunks, trash, etc), then we can say, "It's not climbers!" It's the other idiots there, but we climbers are being respectful and only climbing in the public areas. That is the right and responsibility of the climbing community.
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thespider
Jun 22, 2006, 2:05 PM
Post #98 of 130
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In reply to: thespirder: In reply to: I don't give two s--- about the "locals" and they can come and find me, I will tell them to their face. not good way to make friends and progress as a climber
If the locals ethics are truly ethical I would agree. I think that the locals I have heard from are truly unethical. I do wish to change that and believe that I have the power to. Of course I could be wrong, but I have dug my own grave and I may never know.
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jason1
Jun 22, 2006, 5:21 PM
Post #99 of 130
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ethics are lot like forrestery... takes time to see if your theorys play out the way you think they will.
to say all the locals that boulder fequently in the area are unethical is a gross over generalization... and probally a sign you should think abit about your position....
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jrathfon
Jun 22, 2006, 7:47 PM
Post #100 of 130
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Registered: Jun 5, 2006
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I definetly don't think the people in Jackson's Corner like to be called unethical.
I also don't think I like being called unethical, especially since my "opinions" have been grossly misrepresented by other commentators. I am not an anti-socialist, trespassing climber, in a secret society bent on keeping my private climbing spot open. I am someone who said don't piss off the neighbors, because the adjacent land-owner can affect access to the public land whether you like it or not. It has happened all over the country. There are signs up everywhere saying don't do this or that in public parks. So I was merely advocating a low-profile, instead of charging on like a bull to forcefully open the public land.
And woohoo if you don't think its right, or American, its life. Like my daddy always said, "life ain't fair".
Hush hush, wink wink.
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