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scrapedape
Dec 20, 2006, 3:19 PM
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jt512 wrote: scrapedape wrote: ...Pat said that the key to protecting the crux was a small hex, so how's that for top level climbing? Lots of people still do use hexes, even those that are climbing hard, and just because you have a personal preference against them doesn't mean that they are obsolete, zzzzzzz...
^^^^ I didn't write that. Did you mean to flame me, or the guy who did write it?
Were my comments uninformed? Is dangerous misinformation when I say that at my local crag there are plenty of routes that protect well with hexes, especially for the newer leader? Or was that a more general comment, about dangerous misinformation?
Funny, I thought my comments were framed with all appropriate caveats and limitations. If not, I would appreciate you pointing out what specifically I have posted that is dangerous or uninformed.
BTW:West Pole, 5.7
CCK, 5.7
I know plenty of people who have been climbing for years and may never lead anything harder than these routes. Surely there is more to being a gumby than YDS rating? If some joker in my local gym can climb 5.11, does that make him any less of a gumby when you hand him a rack?
But again, the bottom line is this: I do not presume to assert that if someone buys hexes, he will be able to use them at his local crag, or that he will still be using them five years from now. All I said is that they were a worthwhile investment for me, and one that I would make again, if I were given the choice.
(This post was edited by scrapedape on Dec 20, 2006, 3:25 PM)
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dbrayack
Dec 20, 2006, 3:32 PM
Post #52 of 87
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Cams = plug and chug and keep going,
Hex / Tri-Cam sit there, dicking with a maginal placement pumping yourself out.
Get some cams, they last forever and are well worth it.
-Danno
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caughtinside
Dec 20, 2006, 6:38 PM
Post #53 of 87
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Fascinating!
It is really amazing to see some posters advocating purchasing hexes even when you know(!!) that they will be collecting dust in 6 months.
I am not sure how that is a good investment.
if money is really the limiting factor, why would you buy something that you know you are not going to use in a couple months?
If you really want to buy some hexes, at least get a whole set for like 20 bucks on ebay, from someone else who made the mistake people are urging you to make here.
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dbrayack
Dec 20, 2006, 6:44 PM
Post #54 of 87
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A buddy of mine gave me a set of old choinard hexes....you know...i've been meaning to start trying and learning to place them.
I bet they're really good if you know how to use them?
Perhaps I'll try leaving the cams on the ground and leading on all Hexes.
I found leading "easy" stuff on all nuts helped me a lot with my nut placement.
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dbrayack
Dec 20, 2006, 6:46 PM
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I don't know if anyone else addressed this (im too lazy/busy to read), but the Pink (smallest) tri-cam is actually a really good piece. Perfect for horizontals.
Luckily, I bought mine back when they were super cheap (half the price they are now).
-Danno
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jt512
Dec 20, 2006, 6:50 PM
Post #56 of 87
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scrapedape wrote: jt512 wrote: scrapedape wrote: ...Pat said that the key to protecting the crux was a small hex, so how's that for top level climbing? Lots of people still do use hexes, even those that are climbing hard, and just because you have a personal preference against them doesn't mean that they are obsolete, zzzzzzz... ^^^^ I didn't write that. Did you mean to flame me, or the guy who did write it?
musicman1856 wrote it. I screwed up the quote attribution. I was responding to him.
In reply to: Is dangerous misinformation when I say that at my local crag there are plenty of routes that protect well with hexes, especially for the newer leader?
There are plenty of routes at plenty of crags that protect well with hexes. The problem though is that harder routes tend to be better suited for cams, making hexes, at best, cheap beginner gear. Since most climbers will eventually climb hard enough that they'll need two sets of cams, then if the beginner climber can afford it, he might as well just buy two sets of cams from the start, rather than wasting money on a set of hexes that he'll never use after his first year of climbing.
In reply to: Or was that a more general comment, about dangerous misinformation?
It was a more general comment.
In reply to: I know plenty of people who have been climbing for years and may never lead anything harder than these routes [5.7]. Surely there is more to being a gumby than YDS rating?
I would tend to call anyone who has been climbing "for years," and can't climb harder than most climbers can their first day out, a gumby.
In reply to: All I said is that they were a worthwhile investment for me, and one that I would make again, if I were given the choice.
Well, they were a transition purchase for me. My first rack consisted of a set of nuts, a set of larger hexes, and a few cams. At the time, that was all I could afford. That sufficed for setting up TR anchors for a couple months at Stoney Point, a local bouldering/TR area. But as soon as I started leading, I immediately began adding cams to my rack. I have never placed a hex on a route harder than 5.7, and I started leading 5.8 trad my second or third day out. It quickly became clear that I needed a second set of cams. I got lucky and bought a full set of used Camalots and assorted stuff from a retiring climber for $300. Thus, my hexes sat in my garage within months of their purchase, and within weeks of my first lead. That cams have wider utility than hexes is undeniable; so much so, that they are practically unnecessary. So, if a climber can afford to start right out with cams, he might as well do so.
Jay
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scrapedape
Dec 20, 2006, 7:33 PM
Post #57 of 87
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jt512 wrote: I would tend to call anyone who has been climbing "for years," and can't climb harder than most climbers can their first day out, a gumby.
Maybe this is a regional thing. I've climbed very little on the West Coast, but 5.7 at Seneca or the Gunks is not something that most climbers can do on their first day out. It would be too pumpy and/or require too much footwork for the the typical first-timer. Either the grades are softer where you are, or the men and women are harder - from day one. On top of that, I was speaking about leading specifically, not following.
caughtinside wrote: Fascinating! It is really amazing to see some posters advocating purchasing hexes even when you know(!!) that they will be collecting dust in 6 months. I am not sure how that is a good investment. if money is really the limiting factor, why would you buy something that you know you are not going to use in a couple months? If you really want to buy some hexes, at least get a whole set for like 20 bucks on ebay, from someone else who made the mistake people are urging you to make here.
Why is it so amazing? I explained my reasoning pretty clearly, or so I thought.
Let me try again: it makes sense to me to purchase hexes if it means the difference between climbing tomorrow, and waiting 6-12+ months. Or, in my case, 18+ months.
Should I have just stayed home and spanked the monkey all that time instead?
But, you make a good point about eBay.
(This post was edited by scrapedape on Dec 20, 2006, 7:36 PM)
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caughtinside
Dec 20, 2006, 7:39 PM
Post #58 of 87
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well, it seems like there's a middle ground between having to buy hexes to climb and sitting around spanking the monkey all the time.
but I am biased. I have never bought hexes, never really used hexes.
it just seems like for lots of climbers, you could scrape together a couple hundred bucks, or borrow gear, etc.
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dbrayack
Dec 20, 2006, 8:10 PM
Post #59 of 87
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scrapedape wrote: Let me try again: it makes sense to me to purchase hexes if it means the difference between climbing tomorrow, and waiting 6-12+ months. Or, in my case, 18+ months. Should I have just stayed home and spanked the monkey all that time instead? But, you make a good point about eBay.
Consider a full set of nuts, and a couple cams, generally in the size you'll use. its not like you out and buy a set of cams; Drop a 100 bucks, buy a set of nuts and a number #1 BD
in a month, but a #2 BD. In another couple months, buy a #0.75 BD and #0.5 BD etc. (Don't necessarily follow my schema, I just presented the NRG spectrum. Figure out what size is most common in you're area that you cannot protect with nuts, start there and spread like the plague.)
Yah, you can place nuts and you'll be solid on them, but its nice to start supplimenting with cams, especially when you're cruxing or want a good solid first piece for directional.
Forget hexes, go for some nuts!
-Danno
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stymingersfink
Dec 23, 2006, 3:35 AM
Post #60 of 87
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was going over the rock-rack the other day.
I was suprised to find that I have more passive pro than active, but not by much.
60+ nuts, 56 cams
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moose_droppings
Dec 23, 2006, 5:12 AM
Post #61 of 87
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60+ nuts, 56 cams
Thats not a rack, thats an anchor.
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112
Dec 23, 2006, 7:58 AM
Post #62 of 87
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sky7high wrote: I'm buying a new rack, but I don't know if I should get one (maybe even two) cam or use the money to buy hexes and/or tricams Could any of you guys help me out?
As a 'Trad' climber its almost a right of passage to buy the pink and red tricams and the #7, #8, and #9 hexes. They are not that expensive, and then you could decide for yourself if you like them or not. I personally like them, but I know of no one who has or climbs on a complete set of tricams or hexes.
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hawkeye69
Dec 24, 2006, 8:11 AM
Post #63 of 87
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jt512 wrote: I would tend to call anyone who has been climbing "for years," and can't climb harder than most climbers can their first day out, a gumby. I have never placed a hex on a route harder than 5.7
i would tend to call anyone who has not led 5.10 with all passive pro a noob gumby...
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alexmac
Dec 24, 2006, 1:34 PM
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112 wrote: sky7high wrote: I'm buying a new rack, but I don't know if I should get one (maybe even two) cam or use the money to buy hexes and/or tricams Could any of you guys help me out? As a 'Trad' climber its almost a right of passage to buy the pink and red tricams and the #7, #8, and #9 hexes. They are not that expensive, and then you could decide for yourself if you like them or not. I personally like them, but I know of no one who has or climbs on a complete set of tricams or hexes.
It really must be a regional thing, as most in our region tend to buy exactly that. It sums to one cam for costs.
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cracklover
Dec 24, 2006, 3:40 PM
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This cams versus hexes debate is so completely stupid, I wasn't going to get involved. But then Jay trolled:
jt512 wrote: alexmac wrote: Hexs, five differnet ones (yes some people buy them then get cams and they sit on your shelf , others love them). The expert n00b speaks again. Alex, I do not know a single experienced (and by experience I mean skillful) climber who carries hexes on his trad rack. It should be obvious why, but since it apparently isn't to you, go try leading a difficult route with hexes. This isn't the '70s. There's a reason why cams were invented. Jay
So in response: I carry hexes. And I know others who do, too. Not all the time, but when appropriate. Speaking for myself, I've been climbing nine years, have onsighted hard 5.11 trad. Do I qualify as "skillful", Jay?
There's no point explaining *why* I carry them when I do, because everyone's clearly made up their mind already. But Jay, just because gumbies and noobs do it, doesn't mean it's wrong.
Hey, Merry X-mas everyone. Hope you all get booze or climbing gear or both!
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Dec 24, 2006, 5:04 PM)
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deschamps1000
Dec 24, 2006, 4:42 PM
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Jay and others with similar comments-
Calling somebody a "gumby" because of the grades they climb is obviously absurd. I have a friend that only leads 5.7/5.8 at Seneca and has climbed many big walls in the valley.
I climbed with Fred Beckey last year and he barely made it up the 40-foot long 5.8 I lead. Gumby? Have you been climbing longer than Fred?
Eric
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dan2see
Dec 24, 2006, 5:28 PM
Post #67 of 87
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112 wrote: As a 'Trad' climber its almost a right of passage to buy the pink and red tricams and the #7, #8, and #9 hexes. They are not that expensive, and then you could decide for yourself if you like them or not. I personally like them, but I know of no one who has or climbs on a complete set of tricams or hexes.
Well I'm a novice trad guy, and my goal for 2007 is to have fun on "every route on Kid Goat" which is maybe 40 routes, from 5.4 to 5.10, mostly 5.7, mostly 5 pitches. It's partially bolted, some pitches not bolted at all.
But I don't like placing cams, and I don't like cleaning them. They feel "squishy" to me. The security they offer feels "magic".
On easier limestone, a hexcentric placement is solid, or it is not. That's a psychological advantage: I know where it is. If it works, then "I did it". If it shakes out, then "I did it".
My climbing buddy Andrew uses his cams, for speed. He laughs at my dis-trust for these gadgets.
The advantage I need more than all the gadgets in the world, is "experience". I need time on the rocks, and the sun and the wind. Which is all I ever wanted, anyway!
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alexmac
Dec 26, 2006, 5:53 AM
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dan2see wrote: 112 wrote: As a 'Trad' climber its almost a right of passage to buy the pink and red tricams and the #7, #8, and #9 hexes. They are not that expensive, and then you could decide for yourself if you like them or not. I personally like them, but I know of no one who has or climbs on a complete set of tricams or hexes. Well I'm a novice trad guy, and my goal for 2007 is to have fun on "every route on Kid Goat" which is maybe 40 routes, from 5.4 to 5.10, mostly 5.7, mostly 5 pitches. It's partially bolted, some pitches not bolted at all. But I don't like placing cams, and I don't like cleaning them. They feel "squishy" to me. The security they offer feels "magic". On easier limestone, a hexcentric placement is solid, or it is not. That's a psychological advantage: I know where it is. If it works, then "I did it". If it shakes out, then "I did it". My climbing buddy Andrew uses his cams, for speed. He laughs at my dis-trust for these gadgets. The advantage I need more than all the gadgets in the world, is "experience". I need time on the rocks, and the sun and the wind. Which is all I ever wanted, anyway!
I love hexs in limestone for that very reason of solid and quick placement; I don't carry them all the time but I do love to bring them out for a climb.
Cam's practice more, don't be fearful of them.
I really like your comment In reply to: my goal for 2007 is to have fun on "every route on Kid Goat"
As I said before gear is all personal preference and we should not judge.
Glad your enjoying Dan, I will be out Calgary way in July (mmm month of nothign but climbing).
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ckirkwood9
Dec 26, 2006, 6:06 AM
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i didn't read the entire thread.... and maybe i should before i post this... but at the risk of getting flamed for laziness...
am i the ONLY one who actually read the question... he's asking hexes or TRIcams.... not hexes of CAMS (tcus, fcus, ect)
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jt512
Dec 26, 2006, 6:14 AM
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deschamps1000 wrote: I climbed with Fred Beckey last year...
Did he still have MoabBeth in tail?
Jay
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jt512
Dec 26, 2006, 6:19 AM
Post #71 of 87
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cracklover wrote: This cams versus hexes debate is so completely stupid, I wasn't going to get involved. But then Jay trolled: jt512 wrote: alexmac wrote: Hexs, five differnet ones (yes some people buy them then get cams and they sit on your shelf , others love them). The expert n00b speaks again. Alex, I do not know a single experienced (and by experience I mean skillful) climber who carries hexes on his trad rack. It should be obvious why, but since it apparently isn't to you, go try leading a difficult route with hexes. This isn't the '70s. There's a reason why cams were invented. Jay So in response: I carry hexes. And I know others who do, too. Not all the time, but when appropriate. Speaking for myself, I've been climbing nine years, have onsighted hard 5.11 trad. Do I qualify as "skillful", Jay? There's no point explaining *why*...
Yeah, there is. Why? I don't know a single climber who carries hexes. Not a one. None. Nada. A5+ sponsored expedition-to-Banff guys: no hexes. Maybe you should reconsider.
Jay
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areyoumydude
Dec 26, 2006, 6:36 AM
Post #72 of 87
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jt512 wrote: Uninformed posts, like yours, which overwhelm any useful content on this site, are precisely why few expert climbers have the patience to post here. Jay
Well thank god you still have patience. I sure don't.
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moose_droppings
Dec 26, 2006, 7:16 PM
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jt512 wrote: Yeah, there is. Why? I don't know a single climber who carries hexes. Not a one. None. Nada. A5+ sponsored expedition-to-Banff guys: no hexes. Maybe you should reconsider. Jay
In reply to: Walt Shipley swears by a set of hexes on every wall.
What a dumb debate. Hexes are personal and regional.
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jt512
Dec 26, 2006, 9:28 PM
Post #74 of 87
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moose_droppings wrote: jt512 wrote: Yeah, there is. Why? I don't know a single climber who carries hexes. Not a one. None. Nada. A5+ sponsored expedition-to-Banff guys: no hexes. Maybe you should reconsider. Jay In reply to: Walt Shipley swears by a set of hexes on every wall. Thats a quote right out of John Middendorf's book. Now you can say you've heard of a well known climber that uses them. What a dumb debate. Hexes are personal and regional.
We weren't talking about aid climbing.
Jay
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bdplayer
Dec 26, 2006, 10:41 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: 60+ nuts, 56 cams Thats not a rack, thats an anchor.
For a Yugo....
Here's my two cents on ye olde discussion:
Skyhigh, it sounds like you made your decision, but here's another thing to toss in the mix (after everything else said already). Hexes are great for practicing your anchor placement skills. Drop down the difficulty level a notch, and take some hexes and/or nuts to the crag, leaving the cams at home. You'll find that you get a lot more comfortable finding and slotting cams that way. It's not as fast, not as fun, but sort of rewarding, in an old school kind of way.
Ultimately, it comes down to you, what you WANT to do, and you making the decision to flip off the rest of the worlds opinion and have some fun on the rock.
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