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gochubug
Dec 17, 2006, 10:45 PM
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sky7high wrote: Of course they can all be useful; eventually, I'll get all three, but the question here is what should I buy first
musicman1586 wrote: Get hexes, learn to use passive pro well, don't become dependent on cams.
Then look back to see which one I gave the most space to in my post and you'll get my opinion. Tricams take a little more practice, but IMO it is time well-spent. The same is true for hexes.
If you get addicted to active cams, you'll always try to find a way to place one of them and you won't spend the time to learn how to get good hex or tricam placements.
So get some (smaller sizes are the most useful) tricams and a few larger hexes and learn to place them before you start buying and relying on cams. 
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musicman1586
Dec 17, 2006, 11:14 PM
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gochubug wrote: sky7high wrote: Of course they can all be useful; eventually, I'll get all three, but the question here is what should I buy firstmusicman1586 wrote: Get hexes, learn to use passive pro well, don't become dependent on cams. Then look back to see which one I gave the most space to in my post and you'll get my opinion. Tricams take a little more practice, but IMO it is time well-spent. The same is true for hexes. If you get addicted to active cams, you'll always try to find a way to place one of them and you won't spend the time to learn how to get good hex or tricam placements. So get some (smaller sizes are the most useful) tricams and a few larger hexes and learn to place them before you start buying and relying on cams.
A good point is brought up here that is worth expanding upon. If you only get good at placing nuts and cams, you'll miss lots of other spots to place pro, which could be a big deal, I can easily think of a few examples off the top of my head. First, you limit your options of where to place pro, possibly looking at long run outs and what not. Second, you might not have a good cam or nut placement at a certain spot, so your stuck there fiddling with a cam trying to get it into the crack to make a halfway decent placement, when instead just a couple inches down there might be a perfect spot for a tricam, but you don't have any and/or don't feel confident in placing them in a timely fashion, so instead you get pumped out and fall cause you couldn't work the cam in there. Just some more points to bring up to think about. Regardless of what you decide about the hex vs. cam, atleast pick up the smallest (pink) tricam, it's only like 20 or so, and I, like many others, have always found a place for it.
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gochubug
Dec 17, 2006, 11:22 PM
Post #28 of 87
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That pink tricam is the single most-used piece on my rack!
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ajkclay
Dec 17, 2006, 11:29 PM
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jt512 wrote: Cams are so much easier to place and more versatile than hexes, that few experienced climbers carry them anymore, except for alpine climbing where a minimal rack is needed. For run-of-the-mill trad climbing the only reason to buy hexes is because you can't afford a second set of cams. Once you can, your hexes will just collect dust in your garage. Jay
Agreed... about three months ago my entire rack was stolen from my car... all that is except for the hexes - they were safe and sound back at my house working on their dust collection.
Go cams, in my (often flawed) opinion recommeding a need to learn how to use hexes because they are the pre-cursors to cams is similar to saying one should know how to ride a horse before learning to drive a car. - Not having a go at anyone here, just my 2c 
Peace
Adam
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wanlessrm
Dec 18, 2006, 12:59 AM
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I think you should have said one needs to learn how to start the car before driving it.
We all use cams here were just saying spend 200 bucks on 4 cams and sit at home collecting dust yourself or spend 200 bucks on nuts, hexs, and tri cams and be climbing tomorrow.
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meesier42
Dec 18, 2006, 1:14 AM
Post #32 of 87
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Passive all the way.
If you are learning to lead then stick with your buddies gear until you are comfortable leading. Then you know what you like and what works in your area and the rock that you climb.
Personnally, my buddies forced me to start with passive (gave 1-2 cams, when he knew I would need it). I learned alot about how to find good placecments and sizing gear. Now 6 years later, I still primarily use passive (2 racks nuts, 1 hexes, 2x 0.5-2 tricams) even though I have a bunch of cams. Cams are just too heavy to bother with a bunch of them.
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sky7high
Dec 18, 2006, 5:54 AM
Post #33 of 87
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Allright
After a lot of thought, I'm probably buying a set of tricams 0.5-2 first and perhaps a few larger hexes if I can afford them. I'll worry about cams and my second set of nuts later...
And I have discovered something. I am past the point of no return for gear-whoredom
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billcoe_
Dec 18, 2006, 6:25 AM
Post #34 of 87
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sky7high wrote: gochubug wrote: I have, and use, all three. Of course they can all be useful; eventually, I'll get all three, but the question here is what should I buy first Thanks
As was suggested about differing areas: get what people climbing in your area who (ideally) know your abilities recommend.
If you are planing on getting a rack and heading out to figure all this out: buy life insurance first.
I have both and use wired stoppers on most climbs I do to this day, the larger hexes still have an occasional place on my rack as well.
If I was in JT or the gunks, I'd do Tri-cams, but at Smith somewhat but especially on the straight in basalt cracks around here tri-cams suck and cams like Aliens and Metolius ultralights rule.
Good luck:
Bill
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trenchdigger
Dec 18, 2006, 5:16 PM
Post #35 of 87
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sky7high wrote: Allright After a lot of thought, I'm probably buying a set of tricams 0.5-2 first and perhaps a few larger hexes if I can afford them. I'll worry about cams and my second set of nuts later... And I have discovered something. I am past the point of no return for gear-whoredom
Cool. For reference, I find hexes equivalent to BD size 7, 8, and 9 the most frequently placed. #10 follows closely. but #11 hardly ever touches the rock.
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brent_e
Dec 18, 2006, 6:08 PM
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kmc wrote: I have a set of hexes. They sit in my closet everytime I go climbing. Eventually, even if you get hexes now, you will get cams. When you do, you will probably not want to carry a set of cams and a set of hexes, so you will leave those behing too. Whenever friends looking to build up a rack ask me what to get, or should I get the cheaper cams instead of these cams that I really want I always tell them the same thing. Place many different types, see what you like. Then, buy that. If you buy other cams first b/c they are cheaper, you would have been much better off just buying the other ones to begin with. I would say that same logic applies to hexes as well. And if you do decide to buy cams, it may be wise to save up and buy them all at once. You can usually save a little green when you do it that way. Good luck. ~Kevin
I agree with buying what you want first off. You will invariably buy it later. I bought rock empire cams first off and while they were ok they weren't AS good.
re: hexes. I use them all the time in the rock where I climb (limestone).
Brent
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alexmac
Dec 18, 2006, 6:14 PM
Post #37 of 87
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sky7high wrote: gochubug wrote: I have, and use, all three. Of course they can all be useful; eventually, I'll get all three, but the question here is what should I buy first Thanks
Tricams, the pink and red ones.
Hexs, five differnet ones (yes some people buy them then get cams and they sit on your shelf , others love them).
Passive nuits.
Then cams.
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deschamps1000
Dec 18, 2006, 7:43 PM
Post #38 of 87
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You will regret buying a set of hexes after a few months. Do NOT buy any. How often do you see hexes when walking around a crag? How often do you see cams?
Actually, if you want to buy 3 bigger hexes for cheap, pm me.
Definitely buy cams first. You may then want to consider tricams at some point.
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scrapedape
Dec 18, 2006, 8:58 PM
Post #39 of 87
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sky7high wrote: Allright After a lot of thought, I'm probably buying a set of tricams 0.5-2 first and perhaps a few larger hexes if I can afford them. I'll worry about cams and my second set of nuts later... And I have discovered something. I am past the point of no return for gear-whoredom
Good choice. I have those four tricams (including doubles of 0.5 and 1.0) and place them all frequently. In fact, I have led a few pitches in the past year where I reached the end with only one of the six left on my rack!
I agree with trenchdigger about hex sizing. I have Metolius hexes 6-9 and probably place 7-9 most frequently. I also have a #9 WC Rockcentric, and would recommend those as the premier hex on the market. They do everything a traditional or curve hex does, and more. Sizes 6-9 are probably the most useful.
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brutusofwyde
Dec 18, 2006, 10:31 PM
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sky7high wrote: Allright After a lot of thought, I'm probably buying a set of tricams 0.5-2 first and perhaps a few larger hexes if I can afford them. I'll worry about cams and my second set of nuts later...
Just a bit of advice from someone joining this thread late: I find the #5 and #6 tricams very useful in parallel and slightly flared cracks in anything but the smoothest polished rock. They will protect you where hexes are essentially useless and your other option is cams. I would choose those pieces over hexes if your budget can't afford cams in that range immediately.
for tricams in the pink, red and brown sizes, learn how to stiffen the sling with wire -- makes cleaning far easier and you won't be losing as many of them in the rock.
Brutus
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jt512
Dec 19, 2006, 9:03 AM
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alexmac wrote: Hexs, five differnet ones (yes some people buy them then get cams and they sit on your shelf , others love them).
The expert n00b speaks again.
Alex, I do not know a single experienced (and by experience I mean skillful) climber who carries hexes on his trad rack. It should be obvious why, but since it apparently isn't to you, go try leading a difficult route with hexes. This isn't the '70s. There's a reason why cams were invented.
Jay
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alexmac
Dec 19, 2006, 1:32 PM
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jt512 wrote: alexmac wrote: Hexs, five differnet ones (yes some people buy them then get cams and they sit on your shelf , others love them). The expert n00b speaks again. Alex, I do not know a single experienced (and by experience I mean skillful) climber who carries hexes on his trad rack. It should be obvious why, but since it apparently isn't to you, go try leading a difficult route with hexes. This isn't the '70s. There's a reason why cams were invented.
Wow, again with the negative, For anyone else, other than JT, I know of many climbers who use Hex's, they don't have a full rack of them but like tri-cams they have 2 to 5 Hexs.
JT frankly and honestly your rack is yours, others don't make the same choices.
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scrapedape
Dec 19, 2006, 2:57 PM
Post #43 of 87
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jt512 wrote: I do not know a single experienced (and by experience I mean skillful) climber who carries hexes on his trad rack.
If I had no rack and was faced with the choice between spending 60 bucks on one cam or 4 hexes, I would buy the hexes. But then again, I mainly climb at Seneca.
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jt512
Dec 19, 2006, 5:54 PM
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scrapedape wrote: jt512 wrote: I do not know a single experienced (and by experience I mean skillful) climber who carries hexes on his trad rack. Well, you also don't live near Seneca Rocks. There are places at Seneca where the right hex will provide vastly better protection than any cam. It's nice to have them on hand for those situations. Additionally, they're good to have for building gear anchors on ledges, where the fussing around is not such an issue. If I had no rack and was faced with the choice between spending 60 bucks on one cam or 4 hexes, I would buy the hexes. But then again, I mainly climb at Seneca.
I've never climbed at Seneca, but I've climbed a bunch of other places, and really can't imagine a route on which I'd prefer to have hexes over cams. Do people climbing mid-5.10 and harder routes at Seneca really prefer to place hexes over cams (and I'm not counting the old-school hardmen who have been placing hexes for 30 years)? Even if the placements were technically better for hexes, I would think that that would be trumped by the relative ease of placing cams. On a strenuous route, you don't want to have to fiddle around finessing a hex into place when you could "just slam in" a cam.
Jay
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caughtinside
Dec 19, 2006, 6:03 PM
Post #45 of 87
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Oh come now Jay. Clearly, hexes are a great choice and belong on the rack of any climber who has no interest in climbing harder than say, 5.7.
I hear hexes clanking around all the time at Lover's Leap. usually on the rack of a climber who's like 3rd in line to climb that classic 5.4, knapsack crack. aka, my first lead.
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br
Dec 19, 2006, 6:51 PM
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NOTHING SAYS GOOFBALL LIKE A FULL SET OF HEXS
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musicman1586
Dec 19, 2006, 8:46 PM
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jt512 wrote: scrapedape wrote: jt512 wrote: I do not know a single experienced (and by experience I mean skillful) climber who carries hexes on his trad rack. Well, you also don't live near Seneca Rocks. There are places at Seneca where the right hex will provide vastly better protection than any cam. It's nice to have them on hand for those situations. Additionally, they're good to have for building gear anchors on ledges, where the fussing around is not such an issue. If I had no rack and was faced with the choice between spending 60 bucks on one cam or 4 hexes, I would buy the hexes. But then again, I mainly climb at Seneca. I've never climbed at Seneca, but I've climbed a bunch of other places, and really can't imagine a route on which I'd prefer to have hexes over cams. Do people climbing mid-5.10 and harder routes at Seneca really prefer to place hexes over cams (and I'm not counting the old-school hardmen who have been placing hexes for 30 years)? Even if the placements were technically better for hexes, I would think that that would be trumped by the relative ease of placing cams. On a strenuous route, you don't want to have to fiddle around finessing a hex into place when you could "just slam in" a cam. Jay
http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/ishmael/index.html
Can't find the Rock and Ice article about it, but in that article Pat said that the key to protecting the crux was a small hex, so how's that for top level climbing? Lots of people still do use hexes, even those that are climbing hard, and just because you have a personal preference against them doesn't mean that they are obsolete,
(This post was edited by musicman1586 on Dec 19, 2006, 8:48 PM)
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alexmac
Dec 19, 2006, 9:23 PM
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musicman1586 wrote: Can't find the Rock and Ice article about it, but in that article Pat said that the key to protecting the crux was a small hex, so how's that for top level climbing? Lots of people still do use hexes, even those that are climbing hard, and just because you have a personal preference against them doesn't mean that they are obsolete,
Oh I agree, I don't generally bring HEX's along unless there is a specific route that I wish to use them on. Example: Some spots of limestone I climb have perfect spots to top out on and wrapping trees is banded and no bolts or chains. The Hex's fit like a warm hug in the spots.
Again, its a personal preference hard routes or not.
I just think for someone's starting rack, they should get hex's as they are cheaper, learn to place them and them maybe let them collect dust.
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scrapedape
Dec 19, 2006, 10:51 PM
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jt512 wrote: I've never climbed at Seneca, but I've climbed a bunch of other places, and really can't imagine a route on which I'd prefer to have hexes over cams. Do people climbing mid-5.10 and harder routes at Seneca really prefer to place hexes over cams (and I'm not counting the old-school hardmen who have been placing hexes for 30 years)? Even if the placements were technically better for hexes, I would think that that would be trumped by the relative ease of placing cams. On a strenuous route, you don't want to have to fiddle around finessing a hex into place when you could "just slam in" a cam. Jay sky7high wrote: Thanks a lot for your responses Someone asked about the type of cracks. There's smooth vertical parallel cracks and also some rough cracks that are a little bit inclined. The width ranges from large fingers to chimeneys. The thing is, I want to start leading easy single-pitch routes with my own gear as soon as I can, since my mentor is not always there. I have practiced placing pro for quite a while now, and I feel confident placing nuts and cams. My reasons for wanting cams: They are much more versatile Easier to place-don't get too tired if on a lousy stance I have more experience placing them My reasons for wanting hexes/tricams: I could get a lot more, which means I can have enough for climbing soon I want to get better at placing passive pro With more gear, I can protect more types of cracks
I also know that a lot of people will never lead 5.10 at Seneca, or even 5.9.
I also know that the OP was looking for gear that would enable him to get out and start leading *easy* routes very soon. In my opinion, 60 or 80 bucks for some hexes is not a bad investment if it means that you can start climbing on your own rack now rather than in 6 months, especially since those hexes could be a key part of your rack for a couple of years - even if you eventually outgrow them.
I also understand that Seneca is a bit unique in the rock quality and features, and that many people would say that hexes are more useful there than at some other crags. Which brings us back to the question of where the OP is climbing. Hexes may not be so useful in "smooth vertical parallel cracks," but they may well be handy in "rough cracks that area little bit inclined." Also, the smooth vertical parallel cracks may not be the easiest routes at the crag, i.e. the routes the OP plans to start leading.
I am definitely not trying to start a flame war with you Jay, or with anyone else, nor am I trying to start a pissing contest, nor am I trying to act like I know more than I do. But, as someone who is closer to the "new leader" level like the OP seems to be (and by "closer to" I mean "squarely in"), I think I offer a different perspective, one that may get forgotten by climbers who have been in the sport for many years. I can say that the $65 I invested in a half set of hexes (get 'em on sale!) has payed huge dividends. If I had to make the choice again, I would once again buy the hexes rather than, say, one #2 Camalot. I now have half a dozen cams on my rack, but I still place at least one hex on nearly every pitch - including routes up to 5.8. But even if I never used them again, it would still have been money well spent.
(This post was edited by scrapedape on Dec 19, 2006, 10:52 PM)
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jt512
Dec 20, 2006, 12:52 AM
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musicman1856 wrote: ...Pat said that the key to protecting the crux was a small hex, so how's that for top level climbing? Lots of people still do use hexes, even those that are climbing hard, and just because you have a personal preference against them doesn't mean that they are obsolete,
zzzzzzz...
Okay so there is some 5.13d testpiece in N. Carolina that has a single small hex placement. I rather doubt that Pat Goodman went up that route with a full set of hexes on his rack because he has a "personal preference" for them over cams. "Lots of people" do not use hexes; that is, if by "lots of people" you are excluding the hoards of 5.8 gumbies.
Why do you think the article even mentions the hex placement? Because it is so unusual to place a hex on a route that hard, that the placement itself is part of the story.
For better of worse, I'm getting close to letting you n00bs circulate your misinformation among yourselves from now on. It seems that many of you don't know when to stop posting and start reading. Too bad, because you could actually learn something.
Uninformed posts, like yours, which overwhelm any useful content on this site, are precisely why few expert climbers have the patience to post here. The result is that the site is little more than a playground for gumbies to spread misinformation, -- often dangerous misinformation -- among themselves.
Jay
Edited to correct quote attribution.
(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 20, 2006, 6:28 PM)
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