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Are Noobs Killing Our Sport?
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dingus


May 14, 2007, 7:30 PM
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Re: [mizmai] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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mizmai wrote:
Dingus is right in saying that 20 years from now, most newbies will probably have moved onto something else, but who cares....those people will continue to have respect for the mental and physical toughness that the sport requires.

And you wanna know the fuck all truth of it? Those that see it through? They'll see THEIR SPORT layed out on the bloody alter of youth. In their good turn they'll watch their sport die too. And they'll remember the old curmudgeon what warned em.... they'll remember....

The king is dead
long live the King!

DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on May 14, 2007, 7:30 PM)


jt512


May 14, 2007, 9:18 PM
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Re: [Power_Tie] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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Power_Tie wrote:
Many of these so called climbers have very poor attitudes. I'll wager this dingus character is one of those skinny gym punks that I commonly see at the rock climbing gym.

Wow, did you just hit the nail on the head! Dingus is a 16-year-old gym climber with 6% body fat who warms up on V7. How did you know?

Jay


billcoe_


May 14, 2007, 9:44 PM
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob?

DMT

Are you suggesting that because there are MORE climbers than ever, that climbing is dying?

Perhaps a discussion on changes eh?

BTW, lil kids in gyms can outclimb (moves and strength) many of the old folks now who've been doing it for 20 years. Makes you wonder what standards will eventually hit.


timstich


May 14, 2007, 9:51 PM
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Re: [jt512] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Power_Tie wrote:
Many of these so called climbers have very poor attitudes. I'll wager this dingus character is one of those skinny gym punks that I commonly see at the rock climbing gym.

Wow, did you just hit the nail on the head! Dingus is a 16-year-old gym climber with 6% body fat who warms up on V7. How did you know?

Jay

I wager 5000 Quatloos that Dingus is untrainable, 8000 Quatloos that all Noobs are untrainable and will have to be destroyed.


the_leech


May 14, 2007, 9:56 PM
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Re: [mizmai] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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mizmai wrote:
I totally agree with you, I've found all the people I've come across have been really supportive. But this thread is making me think otherwise...

We don't need whiney, pansy-ass people like you in our sport. Please, take up kayaking or something.

What are you, Canadian? A woman? Hell, probably both...


curt


May 14, 2007, 10:03 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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billcoe_ wrote:
..BTW, lil kids in gyms can outclimb (moves and strength) many of the old folks now who've been doing it for 20 years. Makes you wonder what standards will eventually hit...

Many perhaps, but not all. Wink

Curt


mizmai


May 14, 2007, 10:54 PM
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Re: [the_leech] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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Don't knock the Canadians Wink There are some kick ass climbers up here!

I know you like to stir the shit, but in the end you are nothing but a blood sucking parasite.

What else are you? American? Alone with no real friends or life? Haven't gotten any lately?

Maybe you and Dingus should get together and relieve some pent up stress.

Your sport eh? If it is 'your' sport, then I am embarrassed to call myself a climber.


theeirhsloach13


May 14, 2007, 11:44 PM
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Re: [jgloporto] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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if hot co-eds ia what u want come up to the small state of RI i have seen a good number of hot co-eds who can climb quite well


healyje


May 15, 2007, 12:36 AM
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
In 20 years MOST of you will have moved on to marriage, jobs, mortgages and the daily grind.

About one in 20 of you will still be climbing, as fervent then as you are now, maybe more so. You? You're tribal mate, you've earned your keep.

Dingus, your math is likely wildly off. I'd guess more like somewhere between 20 days and 20 months 50% of noobs will have moved on and 2 years will probably tap out another 20-30%. Of those left, I suspect the numbers at 20 years will be more like one in 2000. Out of the total number of teens/twenty somethings who try climbing in 2007, only an incredibly small percentage will be still climbing in 2027 and the number still climbing at 2037 way smaller still. And all along the curve 85% of those survivors will be wholly bolt-supported, sport-only climbers. The number of trad leaders starts small and stays that way.


jt512


May 15, 2007, 2:08 AM
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Re: [healyje] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
dingus wrote:
In 20 years MOST of you will have moved on to marriage, jobs, mortgages and the daily grind.

About one in 20 of you will still be climbing, as fervent then as you are now, maybe more so. You? You're tribal mate, you've earned your keep.

Dingus, your math is likely wildly off. I'd guess more like somewhere between 20 days and 20 months 50% of noobs will have moved on and 2 years will probably tap out another 20-30%. Of those left, I suspect the numbers at 20 years will be more like one in 2000. Out of the total number of teens/twenty somethings who try climbing in 2007, only an incredibly small percentage will be still climbing in 2027 and the number still climbing at 2037 way smaller still. And all along the curve 85% of those survivors will be wholly bolt-supported, sport-only climbers. The number of trad leaders starts small and stays that way.

Confucius say, "99% statistics just made up."

Jay


healyje


May 15, 2007, 1:15 PM
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Re: [jt512] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Confucius say, "99% statistics just made up."

Jay, take your best shot at it then given "made up" is the best anyone is going to do. The point is that take any year's new climbers and draw a curve of their annual attrition rate over the next thirty years. However you draw it, to be credible it would have to show a very steep initial curve and then steady declines after that. Plot a trad curve under that one and one can reasonably figure it never gets too large and sinks a far faster rate than the curve of the total population of annual survivors.


mturner


May 15, 2007, 1:59 PM
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Re: [healyje] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Confucius say, "99% statistics just made up."

Jay, take your best shot at it then given "made up" is the best anyone is going to do. The point is that take any year's new climbers and draw a curve of their annual attrition rate over the next thirty years. However you draw it, to be credible it would have to show a very steep initial curve and then steady declines after that. Plot a trad curve under that one and one can reasonably figure it never gets too large and sinks a far faster rate than the curve of the total population of annual survivors.

Narly, that just blew my mind! Crazy


ChemBabe68


May 15, 2007, 2:15 PM
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Re: [jgloporto] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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Quit it, guys, I'm getting hot. If someone says they flashed, I'm gonna get bothered too.

And while I appreciate your sense of ownership, this is a sport, not a secret society.


jgloporto


May 15, 2007, 2:31 PM
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Re: [ChemBabe68] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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ChemBabe68 wrote:
Quit it, guys, I'm getting hot. If someone says they flashed, I'm gonna get bothered too.

And while I appreciate your sense of ownership, this is a sport, not a secret society.

:gulp:

You're not by any chance a hot co-ed n00b are you? Has anyone ever taught you the munter mule overhand?



And P.S., no secrets here and it's barely a sport. For me, climbing is just an excuse to drink excessively. I'd play golf but there aren't a lot of hawt co-eds playing golf and I look terrible in plaid.


(This post was edited by jgloporto on May 15, 2007, 2:33 PM)


kriso9tails


May 15, 2007, 2:33 PM
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ChemBabe68 wrote:
Quit it, guys, I'm getting hot. If someone says they flashed, I'm gonna get bothered too.

And while I appreciate your sense of ownership, this is a sport, not a secret society.

If it's not a secret society, then why did I have to get naked, blind-folded and hit with a paddle while I did laps on a long traverse wearing wrist and ankle weights at my initiation ceremony?

I bet you're feeling pretty silly right now.


crewdude


May 15, 2007, 2:38 PM
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It is kinda funny that some people think they own the sport somehow... as if they're the best climbers in the world or something, just because they're better than some newbs that have only been climbing for less than a month...

Climbing is hardcore but no more hardcore than lots of other sports, it requires skill, finesse, and strength... Last time I checked you don't have to be a cocky asshole to be in good shape and to learn good technique... maybe thats just me...


bobruef


May 15, 2007, 2:49 PM
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Re: [healyje] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
...and the number still climbing at 2037 way smaller still. And all along the curve 85% of those survivors will be wholly bolt-supported, sport-only climbers. The number of trad leaders starts small and stays that way.

unbridled optimism... I like it.


ChemBabe68


May 16, 2007, 3:14 AM
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I'm right there with you. And I am going to suggest something even more radical...you don't have to climb a 5.11 to be a "climber" and really really love the sport. (Not to say I don't totally respect and admire people that do climb at that level.)


ChemBabe68


May 16, 2007, 3:44 AM
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Re: [billcoe_] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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Here is a thought on change: the more people that climb, the more wild places they will be aware of. The more folks are aware, the more they are going to want to preserve those places. That means more people willing to divert money and votes to policy that protects the environment. Yeah, that sounds like it will kill the sport, all right... Unless you prefer gyms.


dingus


May 16, 2007, 8:12 AM
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The more new people that climb chdembabe the faster they will kill the sport. They'll also trample those wild places you cherish but that's a different topic.

A noob opens a mag today, sees the sport of climbing for the first time. Wow! Says he, I want to do THAT!

So he enters the cycle.

By the time be *becomes* that climber he envisioned he will have killed the sport to get there. HIS sport in turn will eventually be killed by noobs as well.

It has always been this way. Noob inferiority complexes notwithstanding, to become the king the king must die.

This you need to know.

DMT


crewdude


May 16, 2007, 8:46 AM
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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The whole point is that you teach the newbs and show understanding instead of not helping so that they don't do that... If you just make fun of them and don't help them then obviously they're not going to know what to do.... duh....

and that 5.11 thing got me thinking, dingus, if you're such a great climber why are u worried about newbs trampling ur climbing routes and places when they can't even climb at that level? It's prolly already overrun on the 5.6 and 5.7 routes, and those newbs will all quit climbing before they're as good as you are, so why do you care?


kriso9tails


May 16, 2007, 9:32 AM
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dingus wrote:
The more new people that climb chdembabe the faster they will kill the sport. They'll also trample those wild places you cherish but that's a different topic.

A noob opens a mag today, sees the sport of climbing for the first time. Wow! Says he, I want to do THAT!

So he enters the cycle.

By the time be *becomes* that climber he envisioned he will have killed the sport to get there. HIS sport in turn will eventually be killed by noobs as well.

It has always been this way. Noob inferiority complexes notwithstanding, to become the king the king must die.

This you need to know.

DMT

It's fairly true. The sport has been redifined to some extent since I started about a decade and a half ago and will continue to be redefined over and over throughout the course of my life.

I've climbed and talked with a fair number of people that have been climbing for thirty to forty years and while some ride the chages of the new wave(s), others get held down by the weight of dying traditions and drown in the tsunami of new-commers.

Though the latter group may not see things that way, I've heard too many misty-eyed 'Back in the day...'s often followed by a bitter, yet generally mistaken sense of entitlement that comes with being 'there' first.

Mistaken or not though, it's a very understandable and human feeling. New climbers invariably change, at the very least, the dynamics of a given area and in doing so are taking away from those that had been climbing there for years and wanted things to stay the same. At the same time those new climbers are, for better or worse, adding new things to the mix and keeping the sport interesting (and I'll stand by that despite the fact that many changes in the sport are initiated by well established climbers).

There will always be old-timers for whom newbs will kill the sport, but without said newbs the sport dies anyway; the important thing to remember is that things will all be fine so long as one thing in the sport remains constant, and that thing is... making fun of the French.


(This post was edited by kriso9tails on May 16, 2007, 9:32 AM)


Partner oldsalt


May 16, 2007, 5:21 PM
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Re: [kriso9tails] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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kriso9tails wrote:
There will always be old-timers for whom newbs will kill the sport, but without said newbs the sport dies anyway; the important thing to remember is that things will all be fine so long as one thing in the sport remains constant, and that thing is... making fun of the French.

French .. fries, kisses, retreats, how can anyone make fun of a people who brought these to a high art form?


marcuder


May 25, 2007, 10:20 AM
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Re: [oldsalt] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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Iím not usually given to posting strong opinions on RC but this whole debate is pissing me off:

First off, oh manÖ I have so much fun reading RC.COM in the morning for all the hypocrisy and hubris that gets dumped on it everyday. On one side you have people who ask a lot of questions - some good, some inane or annoying, and on the other we have those who prey and troll on the first group. Anyway, no wonder nobody every posts anything of substance anymore; every thread degenerates into a chorus of voices telling "n00bs to STFU" and n00bs crying and wailing in righteous indignation.

First of all n00bs, for better or worse keep he sport going. I agree that there is waaaaaaay too many repetitive questions about "what do I do with a rope" or "can I use a shoelace for an anchor" - the answers are all there if people just would take time to do a search. Ask in the forum if you're really stuck...

On the other hand - and I can't decide which one is worse - are people who once were n00bs themselves, achieved some proficiency with tools and skills of the trade, and feel themselves entitled to put everyone else down. If you're so eager to protect the sport then educate and teach the ethic of climbing. Standing high'n mighty and pissing down on everybody else just alienates the first group and doesn't bring about any positive change in the community.

And I guess that's the point I'm trying to get at. If this were a true community then there would be no n00bs with stupid questions because the assholes who normally would flame them would take part in inculcating positive values and ethics. Instead what we get is this group of self-important jerks who shit on everybody else who they feel is beneath them. What it really is just a whole lot of masturbation. Oh, and what is thing about climbing being "our" sport? I didn't know it belonged to anyone. Who gave it to us - did Moses come down from the mountain and handed someone the deed to climbing? I must have missed the memo...

Anyway, when I first started climbing I was truly lucky to run into a true veteran of the sport who took me in and cared enough to keep me from killing myself until I learned how to do things properly for myself... and who, most-importantly reinforced the true ethics of climbing.

So who's really killing 'the sport'... really?


scuclimber


May 25, 2007, 10:43 AM
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marcuder wrote:
Iím not usually given to posting strong opinions on RC but this whole debate is pissing me off:

First off, oh manÖ I have so much fun reading RC.COM in the morning for all the hypocrisy and hubris that gets dumped on it everyday. On one side you have people who ask a lot of questions - some good, some inane or annoying, and on the other we have those who prey and troll on the first group. Anyway, no wonder nobody every posts anything of substance anymore; every thread degenerates into a chorus of voices telling "n00bs to STFU" and n00bs crying and wailing in righteous indignation.

First of all n00bs, for better or worse keep he sport going. I agree that there is waaaaaaay too many repetitive questions about "what do I do with a rope" or "can I use a shoelace for an anchor" - the answers are all there if people just would take time to do a search. Ask in the forum if you're really stuck...

On the other hand - and I can't decide which one is worse - are people who once were n00bs themselves, achieved some proficiency with tools and skills of the trade, and feel themselves entitled to put everyone else down. If you're so eager to protect the sport then educate and teach the ethic of climbing. Standing high'n mighty and pissing down on everybody else just alienates the first group and doesn't bring about any positive change in the community.

And I guess that's the point I'm trying to get at. If this were a true community then there would be no n00bs with stupid questions because the assholes who normally would flame them would take part in inculcating positive values and ethics. Instead what we get is this group of self-important jerks who shit on everybody else who they feel is beneath them. What it really is just a whole lot of masturbation. Oh, and what is thing about climbing being "our" sport? I didn't know it belonged to anyone. Who gave it to us - did Moses come down from the mountain and handed someone the deed to climbing? I must have missed the memo...

Anyway, when I first started climbing I was truly lucky to run into a true veteran of the sport who took me in and cared enough to keep me from killing myself until I learned how to do things properly for myself... and who, most-importantly reinforced the true ethics of climbing.

So who's really killing 'the sport'... really?

Wow, this shit just keeps getting better and better. I check out for a week or two and it's on the eighth page. Nobody post for a minute, I'm gonan go get some popcorn.

Edit: 200th reply and page nine, biatches!


(This post was edited by scuclimber on May 25, 2007, 10:44 AM)

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