The sport climbing devolution has been steadily devolving ever since towards just the gridbolting Fracture and you have no problem with. At least in the early 80's there was some 'sport' in sport climbing. The obvious and steady trend, however, has been towards more bolts and 'safer' climbs. The result is both an illusion of safety with respect to operating around crags and attracts hordes of folks uninterested in anything but their own entertainment. It further simply commodifies rock as just another consumable.
Are there interesting and envelope-pushing events happening in sport climbing? Sure, but as a percentage of total gym and sport climbers it's happening only in an incredibly small and shrinking number of climbers on a percentage basis - the vast majority of gym and sport climbers simply want safe entertainment.
Old climbers who are reading this should realize that there was thing commonly referred to as the "sport climbing revolution" that took place like two decades ago.
Jay
I'm glad it did.
Say J, if say some 'majority' of climbers votes to retro Bachar Yerian, are you seriously OK with that?
DMT
I've stated no opinion on retro-bolting, but to me, it's pretty straightforward: trad routes should be left in their original condition, unless the FAist consents to the change. On the other hand, a dangerously bolted sport route is a contradiction, and should be fixed, regardless of what the FAist thinks.
Jay
Thanks. I suspect you represent the vast majority of climbers with this sentiment. That's pretty much how I see it as well.
the vast majority of gym and sport climbers simply want safe entertainment.
Utter nonsense. Entertainment is passive. Most sport climbers want to enjoy movement on rock without taking undue risk, which is precisely what sport climbing was intended for.
thankfully and hopefully these old timers are a dying breed.
religious adherence to dogma is idiotic
So is blindly casting aside the lessons of the past. Just because an idea isn't new doesn't mean it has no merit. And as far as your hope that the Old Timer's ethic is dying out, I hate to disappoint but there are quite a few new climbers that cheerfully embrace "oldschool" ethics, and that after serious consideration of the relative merits, not out of some "blind adherence".
the vast majority of gym and sport climbers simply want safe entertainment.
Utter nonsense. Entertainment is passive. Most sport climbers want to enjoy movement on rock without taking undue risk, which is precisely what sport climbing was intended for.
Risk-free movement on rock is entertainment - not sport - and comes at an exorbitant price in terms of crowding, access, and damage to rock.
the vast majority of gym and sport climbers simply want safe entertainment.
Utter nonsense. Entertainment is passive. Most sport climbers want to enjoy movement on rock without taking undue risk, which is precisely what sport climbing was intended for.
Risk-free movement on rock is entertainment..
Bullshit. You're the portrait of the Bitter Old Trad.
I mean, the suggestion that democracy is a good way to handle conflict really should be pretty uncontroversial.
Sure there's no controversy...democracy sucks as a way of handling conflict. If 9 people say no bolts and the 10th guy bolts anyway all you have is the sort of war we've been talking about. "Democracy" only works if people voluntarily adhere to the majority rule...and that ain't the most likely outcome if someone doesn't want to lose. From taxes to the draft, the reality of "democracy" is that it generally favours the powerful; and that ain't really democracy...is it.
Anywaaay... Current ethics tend toward respecting the FA. Anything else, is going to be a prelude to anarchy, not democracy.
I mean, the suggestion that democracy is a good way to handle conflict really should be pretty uncontroversial.
Sure there's no controversy...democracy sucks as a way of handling conflict. If 9 people say no bolts and the 10th guy bolts anyway all you have is the sort of war we've been talking about. "Democracy" only works if people voluntarily adhere to the majority rule...and that ain't the most likely outcome if someone doesn't want to lose. From taxes to the draft, the reality of "democracy" is that it generally favours the powerful; and that ain't really democracy...is it.
Anywaaay... Current ethics tend toward respecting the FA. Anything else, is going to be a prelude to anarchy, not democracy.
It only works if you have a way to enforce it. Otherwise it's called Anarchy.
We are talking ethics here. Now I'm no fan of ballzy routes but under no circumstance, other that expressed permission by the FA climber, would I ever consider retro bolting a route. All I did was find my own routes and put them up in a manner that I saw fit. I'd be pissed as hell to see someone fucking with them. There is room for all types of climbs from crap your pants to ubersafe sport.
Who am I or you to dictate the vision of another climber.
If a bolt is crap them by all means change it, but don't change the flavor.
Bullshit. You're the portrait of the Bitter Old Trad.
Nope, after 33 years I'm still putting up reasonably hard, fairly sketch, groundup, onsight trad routes and am simply protecting my turf and reminding folks there is way, way more to climbing than simply clipping bolts.
Bullshit. You're the portrait of the Bitter Old Trad.
Nope, after 33 years I'm still putting up reasonably hard, fairly sketch, groundup, onsight trad routes and am simply protecting my turf and reminding folks there is way, way more to climbing than simply clipping bolts.
So you are admittedly, then, merely acting out of self-interest, rather than for the ethical reasons, like how the rock has value in its pristine state, that you pretend to espouse.
What you don't seem to get is that spouting "ethics" that the very people you are trying to influence think are embarrassingly archaic defeats the purpose you are trying to achieve.
Who am I or you to dictate the vision of another climber.
Exactly. All we got here is a bunch of big egos on either side finger painting with their own dook and calling the other guy's painting a piece of shit. It's almost exactly that silly.
(This post was edited by zeke_sf on Jun 1, 2007, 1:15 AM)
Old climbers who are reading this should realize that there was thing commonly referred to as the "sport climbing revolution" that took place like two decades ago.
Jay
I'm glad it did.
Say J, if say some 'majority' of climbers votes to retro Bachar Yerian, are you seriously OK with that?
We've already discussed this line of "reasoning". (We'll call it the Sistine Chapel Argument, since it is worth naming bad arguments to avoid repeating them.)
Assuming for the sake of argument that I am also "not OK" with the BY being retro'd (while in reality I couldn't care less either way; it's not relevant to my sport): under the scenario you are discussing, what would you recommend I do? What would you do? What does not being "OK" with it entail, other than disagreeing with (and perhaps arguing against) the community's actions? Are you advocating violence? Or a road trip simply to chop bolts at a crag I don't even visit? In what way can you differentiate your position from mine on this issue?
(This post was edited by fracture on Jun 1, 2007, 4:47 PM)
the vast majority of gym and sport climbers simply want safe entertainment.
Utter nonsense. Entertainment is passive.
Wtf? Since when? (My dictionaries say nothing of the sort.)
Of course sport climbing is entertainment. It's a sport!
I'm using a definition along the lines of this one from Am. Her.: "Something that amuses, pleases, or diverts, especially a performance or show."
I would never refer to climbing as "entertainment." In fact, I am using the word in the same sense that Joseph is using it sarcastically: something that's safe, easy, passive. He would never call "his kind" of climbing "entertainment," unless he is willing to call it "unsafe entertainment," which I doubt he is willing to do.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 1, 2007, 4:54 PM)
I don't think you will get a huge fight there jay, but what about fracture's proposal to add more dogging bolts for pure convenience?
This is not originally my idea. (And dogging bolts aren't a very new concept at all.)
In reply to:
I don't think that is real cool. At that point, all climbing routes become the same.
Only if you are completely uninterested in movement.
I'm aware that dogging bolts are not a new idea. But retro dogging bolts is a new one for me. Probably has to do with the areas we climb at.
And I got a snicker as to your little zinger about complete lack of interest in movement. Good one. No, we cannot all be so singlemindedly focused on the ballet climbing that you so relish.
here is something to think about. I actually enjoy several different kinds of climbing. I really enjoy climbing in many different areas, and exposing myself to new climbing areas, which have their own nuances and character.
It is interesting that you push so hard for democracy on bolting issues. Maybe it's just because I'm here (where the climbing is sweet) and you're there (where the climbing is ???, but likely less than totally sweet) but I have a feeling more people would like to see variety.
i don't think being a 5.13 ballet climber will really put you in the majority. Know what I mean?
Anywaaay... Current ethics tend toward respecting the FA. Anything else, is going to be a prelude to anarchy, not democracy.
Actually, anarchy is the traditional system (due to low levels of conflict in the first place). It usually works pretty damn well, for climbing, and I very much advocate it as a preferable default.
However, at some areas, either due to (sometimes unfounded) land-manager fears about accidents or volatile conflicts between disparate local climbing user sub-groups, there has been a need for something else. In these cases, I think a representative system of government is extremely reasonable (do you have an alternative suggestion we could discuss?). Yes, to a degree it can only operate with popular consent (and perhaps consent is the main thing I am arguing for in this thread), but when the land-manager is the government, there can also be real legal force behind it---rock climbing simply doesn't take place in a political vacuum.
I don't think you will get a huge fight there jay, but what about fracture's proposal to add more dogging bolts for pure convenience?
This is not originally my idea. (And dogging bolts aren't a very new concept at all.)
In reply to:
I don't think that is real cool. At that point, all climbing routes become the same.
Only if you are completely uninterested in movement.
I'm aware that dogging bolts are not a new idea. But retro dogging bolts is a new one for me. Probably has to do with the areas we climb at.
And I got a snicker as to your little zinger about complete lack of interest in movement. Good one. No, we cannot all be so singlemindedly focused on the ballet climbing that you so relish.
here is something to think about. I actually enjoy several different kinds of climbing. I really enjoy climbing in many different areas, and exposing myself to new climbing areas, which have their own nuances and character.
It is interesting that you push so hard for democracy on bolting issues. Maybe it's just because I'm here (where the climbing is sweet) and you're there (where the climbing is ???, but likely less than totally sweet) but I have a feeling more people would like to see variety.
i don't think being a 5.13 ballet climber will really put you in the majority. Know what I mean?
I agree with this.... retro'ing in "dogging" bolts is definitely a "new" idea to me.... and a completely lame one at that.
I also agree with the statement about the quality of climbing in his area. Basically...it sucks... I am from a climbing area where it is, as you said, sweet. The idea of just retro'ing into some of the great sport routes on Mt. Lemmon sounds insane...
There are a bunch of routes up there that I haven't done because I don't have the confidence or the skill to comlete the route without taking a potentially dangerous whipper. It never crossed my mind to rape the route and add bolts where I needed them to make me feel safe, and to avoid that rough whipper.... WTF? I will get those routes someday....when I am good enough to get through that section without falling...or confident enough with my skill level to attempt it....or just plain old don't give a shit about getting busted up...
regardless, retro-bolting into a route makes it a completly different route and it shouldn't even have the same name after that. iThis is just BS.
(This post was edited by azrockclimber on Jun 1, 2007, 5:26 PM)
Wtf? Since when? (My dictionaries say nothing of the sort.)
Of course sport climbing is entertainment. It's a sport!
I'm using a definition along the lines of this one from Am. Her.: "Something that amuses, pleases, or diverts, especially a performance or show."
Yes. Works for me. (Where's "passive"?)
(The definition I found is slightly more accurate, in my opinion, and lists "sport" as a synonym, but I don't find yours particularly wrong.)
In reply to:
I would never refer to climbing as "entertainment."
Wow.
Well, for one thing, I don't know whether to actually believe you. (People are potentially fallible if asked to describe their own idiolect.)
But more interestingly, if you really don't think sport climbing is entertainment (as any sport is), I think we probably have very different reasons for doing what we do. (Which would surprise me, based on previous discussions.)
(Though I'll note again, in order to avoid misunderstanding, that I don't think that the reasons people climb should be relevant in the context of determining how to optimally manage public land.)
In reply to:
In fact, I am using the word in the same sense that Joseph is using it sarcastically: something that's safe, easy, passive. He would never call "his kind" of climbing "entertainment," unless he is willing to call it "unsafe entertainment," which I doubt he is willing to do.
Joseph's quips about "entertainment" are completely devoid of content, from where I'm sitting.
And regarding safety: many (most?) forms of entertainment are not 100% safe. Many people gamble for entertainment, for example. Or jump out of airplanes. Or eat peyote. Or ride a unicycle at high speed. Or hangdog on cams.
(This post was edited by fracture on Jun 1, 2007, 5:43 PM)
you said, and I quote... " Is this thread really at this level"
Almost. (For anyone wondering: there was a quip lamenting the all-too-common decent into a (usually unscientific) discussion about what words mean, but I deleted it to be more polite. Don't ask me why.)
19 /
16%
