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areyoumydude
Nov 12, 2011, 5:52 PM
Post #26 of 118
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rangerrob wrote: I'm not doing anythign wrong. i don't use one. However, there is no disputing the fact that grigris do not let near the amount of rope slide through the device as a plate or tube. The only dynamics in a grirgi belay are the movement of the belayer. Aid climbing is a different scenario. I don't mind my belayer using a grigri when I am on a 2 or 3 hour lead
Do you really think a little slip through your belay device makes a difference?
It's fine if you don't like using them, but if you're trying to say it's safer to use a tube/plate than a grigri do to static loads and harder falls than yer doing it wrong.
Most of my falls have been caught using a grigri and they were as soft as the belayer made it. I've also had hard falls caught with an ATC by some traddie that didn't know how to give a dynamic belay.
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chilli
Nov 12, 2011, 9:28 PM
Post #27 of 118
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JimTitt wrote: ...As Bearbreeder says, thatīs RC.com and the internet in general. Those that have some crusading message post about how Grigris are the work of Satan. Those who actually use them no interest in whether anyone else does so just donīt post but the sheer number of people out there with one tells a different story...
@ Rmsyll2:
I'm going to follow up a bit on what Jim and bearbreeder (I gotta wonder how that SN came about by the way) were saying. I'm one of those people who loves the GG2. I've had a sterling 10.1mm rope for a long time and I've had the GG2 since last winter. I've never had any problems yarding slack through and I'm not bothered by the way it lowers. I honestly don't understand the complaints, since I haven't experienced those problems (though YMMV).
FYI: I have always used the thumb pinch with both the old and new GriGri (as depicted in the video) and have not had any problems. Pinch the cam, let the rope slide through your brakehand, and then release the cam --> no problem. The only thing I tend to do differently is that I pinch with my index finger under the whole GriGri rather than just the lip. I'm not saying that people aren't entitled to their own opinions [except the guy below ;)]. I just figured I'd offer the other side of the coin.
By the way, I do NOT like (and never have liked) the method you photographed in your post about the "very experienced climbers leading a 5.11 Sport route." Pinching a thumb on the cam is easy, quick, and safer, IMO. "Safer" because all you have to do is maintain your brake hand on the rope and slide it away from your GriGri (thus releasing your thumb pinch) if the leader blows the clip and suddenly falls. It's one VERY simple movement that never involves releasing the brake strand.
Remember: when terrain allows, as soon as you and the leader are in a good position to do so (i.e. they're at a height where they won't land on your head), the single most effective means of quickly moving slack in/out of the system is stepping toward/away from the rock. This greatly reduces how much you have to feed through your belay device for the clip.
areyoumydude wrote: ...Most of my falls have been caught using a grigri and they were as soft as the belayer made it. I've also had hard falls caught with an ATC by some traddie that didn't know how to give a dynamic belay.
areyoumydude wrote: Do you really think a little slip through your belay device makes a difference? It's fine if you don't like using them, but if you're trying to say it's safer to use a tube/plate than a grigri [due] to static loads and harder falls then yer doing it wrong.
There was someone who actually measured slippage through tube devices vs. GriGris that concluded slippage to be quite negligible in either (unless otherwise puposefully modified by the belayer, of course).
(This post was edited by chilli on Nov 12, 2011, 9:49 PM)
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Rmsyll2
Nov 14, 2011, 5:37 AM
Post #28 of 118
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Another lead belay today, but I was mostly photoing the climber so did not get many of the belayer. He was using the second method of gripping the cam arm for slack to clip: the brake hand thumb over the top, but only two fingers under. He did not keep his climber hand high, that I noticed, and did the pinch to slide at the device. His feed motions seemed to be very short, as recommended.
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shockabuku
Nov 14, 2011, 2:40 PM
Post #29 of 118
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Rmsyll2 wrote: Another lead belay today, but I was mostly photoing the climber so did not get many of the belayer. He was using the second method of gripping the cam arm for slack to clip: the brake hand thumb over the top, but only two fingers under. He did not keep his climber hand high, that I noticed, and did the pinch to slide at the device. His feed motions seemed to be very short, as recommended.
They recommend you don't pinch under the body of the Grigri (as shown in your pictures) because then you may have a tendency to grip the thing and hold the cam open. If you do it right, you don't need to grip it anyway, the tension in pulling slack keeps the body of the Grigri tight against your brake hand thumb. While there is a learning curve to it, I think it is worth the extra hour (or less) of practice to learn to do it the "right" way.
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rangerrob
Nov 15, 2011, 3:40 AM
Post #30 of 118
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Fair enough dude. I'm just saying that I don't like people belaying me on lead with a grigri. Just not the right tool I think. Why opt for the heavy, expensive tool when can get the same or better result with a les expensive, lighter option? Just my opinion, not fact
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areyoumydude
Nov 15, 2011, 6:31 AM
Post #31 of 118
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Well if you ever make it out my way I'll be more than happy to give you a catch with your choice of belay device.
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guangzhou
Nov 15, 2011, 7:40 AM
Post #32 of 118
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rangerrob wrote: Fair enough dude. I'm just saying that I don't like people belaying me on lead with a grigri. Just not the right tool I think. Why opt for the heavy, expensive tool when can get the same or better result with a les expensive, lighter option? Just my opinion, not fact
It's just a tool. If the person who's using it is proficient, you won't be able totell the difference between a Gri Gri, ATC, or Guide (Whatever) device when you are leading.
Used properly, they will all feed out slack and will all catch you properly.
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rossross
Nov 15, 2011, 4:17 PM
Post #33 of 118
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rangerrob wrote: Fair enough dude. I'm just saying that I don't like people belaying me on lead with a grigri. Just not the right tool I think. Why opt for the heavy, expensive tool when can get the same or better result with a les expensive, lighter option? Just my opinion, not fact
There is a reason just about every "pro" climber uses a grigri, and its not the fact that they get it for free.
Its the only way to fly if you ask me.
(unless on bad gear)
(This post was edited by rossross on Nov 15, 2011, 4:18 PM)
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cracklover
Nov 15, 2011, 6:35 PM
Post #34 of 118
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This: 
Is no good. Squeezing the device like that is a bad idea.
GO
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SylviaSmile
Nov 15, 2011, 6:57 PM
Post #35 of 118
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rossross wrote: rangerrob wrote: Fair enough dude. I'm just saying that I don't like people belaying me on lead with a grigri. Just not the right tool I think. Why opt for the heavy, expensive tool when can get the same or better result with a les expensive, lighter option? Just my opinion, not fact There is a reason just about every "pro" climber uses a grigri, and its not the fact that they get it for free. Its the only way to fly if you ask me. (unless on bad gear)
What is the reason? If I never learn how to use a grigri, will I be somehow deficient in my climbing skillset? Honestly wondering, because I currently just have a BD ATC-guide device, which I have been using for everything, including the gym.
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fresh
Nov 15, 2011, 9:38 PM
Post #36 of 118
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rangerrob wrote: I'm not doing anythign wrong. i don't use one. However, there is no disputing the fact that grigris do not let near the amount of rope slide through the device as a plate or tube. The only dynamics in a grirgi belay are the movement of the belayer. Aid climbing is a different scenario. I don't mind my belayer using a grigri when I am on a 2 or 3 hour lead
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rangerrob
Nov 15, 2011, 9:45 PM
Post #37 of 118
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Umm..Ross? What exactly is a pro climber? Is that anything like a pro basketball player? How about a pro football player? Do pro climbers get multi year contracts for hundreds of thousands of dollars? There is no such thing as a pro climber. The best that a climber can do is get their gear for free, and possibly get their trips paid for. Name one climber who is getting paid a salary for climbing stuff on their own?
I don't know of many top level climbers who are hauling up a grigris on big alpine routes. Colin Haley? Ueli Steck? Freddie Wilkinson? Rolando? Has anyone seen these guys on a big face with a grigri? I'd love to see the pictures. Hell I would doubt the Giri Giri boys even use one...and if anyone would it would be them!!
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Rmsyll2
Nov 15, 2011, 11:55 PM
Post #39 of 118
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Squeezing down the cam arm is necessary to give slack fast for the climber to pull up rope to clip. What the Petzl video calls the "classic" method squeezes with all the fingers wrapped around to the top, with the thumb under to make a full grip. That was shown in the first set of photos. In the second set, the belayer did keep the brake rope in his fingers, as advised. Two fingers under is not much to release, and there has to be something to squeeze against. The video shows just the thumb pressing down the arm, but pressing against what support? While practicing, pulling up the climber rope will locate and stabilize the device in the carabiner, to be pushing down with the thumb; but in use, that doesn't work for me. I found that the index finger can hook under the lip on the brake side. That works well when I'm practicing the motion; but during a climb, the device is flopping around and I can't aim that well. Today, belaying a Trad lead, I was gripping any way that happened.
I thought that seeing a clip about to happen, I could hold the brake hand low to push up slack for the climber hand to pull without locking, but it locked anyway. Sigh. This is hard for me. Trad is much more complicated to watch and provide for than Sport. Also much slower, so more tiring from looking up so long. Trad is also a lot more fun to second, having to reverse the placements, but again a lot more tiring, holding a stance to peer into a crack to figure how to get a tiny cam out without jamming it worse and maybe losing it.
A very wiggly learning curve, for me.
.
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rangerrob
Nov 16, 2011, 1:42 AM
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I admit I don't know who the woman is, but Alex Honnold receives a salary to climb? From who?
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guangzhou
Nov 16, 2011, 2:31 AM
Post #41 of 118
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rangerrob wrote: Umm..Ross? What exactly is a pro climber? Is that anything like a pro basketball player? How about a pro football player? Do pro climbers get multi year contracts for hundreds of thousands of dollars? There is no such thing as a pro climber. The best that a climber can do is get their gear for free, and possibly get their trips paid for. Name one climber who is getting paid a salary for climbing stuff on their own?
Patagonia pays salaries to it's pro climbers, so does the North Face. The german brother's freeing routes on El-cap get money from Audi. Petzl also has salaries for it's top performing sponsored athletes. I think BD does too, but not 100% sure.
Many of Europes tops climbers do indeed recieve very nice compensation from their sponsors.
I think the American climbing industry is also headed toward sponsorship payment not just gear. I bet TW gets paid something more than gear these days.
Also check out Sharma, definitely more than free gear there.
In reply to: I don't know of many top level climbers who are hauling up a grigris on big alpine routes. Colin Haley? Ueli Steck? Freddie Wilkinson? Rolando? Has anyone seen these guys on a big face with a grigri? I'd love to see the pictures. Hell I would doubt the Giri Giri boys even use one...and if anyone would it would be them!!
The Gri Gri has been spotted many time on the big face of Patagonia, does that count?
(This post was edited by guangzhou on Nov 16, 2011, 2:33 AM)
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shockabuku
Nov 16, 2011, 3:04 AM
Post #42 of 118
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Rmsyll2 wrote: Squeezing down the cam arm is necessary to give slack fast for the climber to pull up rope to clip. What the Petzl video calls the "classic" method squeezes with all the fingers wrapped around to the top, with the thumb under to make a full grip. That was shown in the first set of photos. In the second set, the belayer did keep the brake rope in his fingers, as advised. Two fingers under is not much to release, and there has to be something to squeeze against. The video shows just the thumb pressing down the arm, but pressing against what support? While practicing, pulling up the climber rope will locate and stabilize the device in the carabiner, to be pushing down with the thumb; but in use, that doesn't work for me. I found that the index finger can hook under the lip on the brake side. That works well when I'm practicing the motion; but during a climb, the device is flopping around and I can't aim that well. Today, belaying a Trad lead, I was gripping any way that happened. ...
Your statement (bolded above) is incorrect. You don't need to squeeze the device. I said it above, I'll try to be more clear now; when your non-brake hand pulls slack on the rope from the climber's side of the Grigri it should cause the Grigri to pull tight against your belay loop and no longer flop around. That tension lifts the Grigri up and allows you to apply your thumb to the hinge of the handle to slightly depress the cam and release it enough to pull rope through.
If you think this doesn't work then my writing is not clear enough or you're not doing it correctly. It is not the easiest thing to learn and if you don't coordinate it correctly the device will lock up.
You absolutely don't need to squeeze the body of the Grigri from both sides to pull slack.
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shockabuku
Nov 16, 2011, 3:23 AM
Post #43 of 118
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rangerrob wrote: There is no such thing as a pro climber.
I would say that guides are pro climbers.
They may not make 6+ figure salaries - in a decade - but I think by and large they meet most other criteria for professional athletes.
I often think of climbing coaches and route setters as pro climbers in the older sense of club golf and tennis pros.
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jt512
Nov 16, 2011, 3:41 AM
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rangerrob wrote: Umm..Ross? What exactly is a pro climber?
Someone who makes his living from climbing.
In reply to: Do pro climbers get multi year contracts for hundreds of thousands of dollars?
I understand from mutual acquaintances that Chris Sharma is pulling in $200K a year, primarily from product endorsements.
In reply to: There is no such thing as a pro climber. The best that a climber can do is get their gear for free, and possibly get their trips paid for.
What's that rock rated that you've been living under?
Jay
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SylviaSmile
Nov 16, 2011, 1:30 PM
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rangerrob wrote: I admit I don't know who the woman is, but Alex Honnold receives a salary to climb? From who?
Steph Davis!
(This post was edited by SylviaSmile on Nov 16, 2011, 1:31 PM)
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fresh
Nov 16, 2011, 2:00 PM
Post #46 of 118
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so does anyone know how much more force will be put on the top piece when the belayer is using a grigri vs when they are using an ATC? I tried searching but all I got was a bunch of petty arguments.
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lena_chita
Moderator
Nov 16, 2011, 3:26 PM
Post #47 of 118
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SylviaSmile wrote: rossross wrote: rangerrob wrote: Fair enough dude. I'm just saying that I don't like people belaying me on lead with a grigri. Just not the right tool I think. Why opt for the heavy, expensive tool when can get the same or better result with a les expensive, lighter option? Just my opinion, not fact There is a reason just about every "pro" climber uses a grigri, and its not the fact that they get it for free. Its the only way to fly if you ask me. (unless on bad gear) What is the reason? If I never learn how to use a grigri, will I be somehow deficient in my climbing skillset? Honestly wondering, because I currently just have a BD ATC-guide device, which I have been using for everything, including the gym.
Well, ANY TIME you pass up a chance to learn/practice something, you are, by definition, choosing to be/stay deficient in that skill.
But if there is a device that a lot of climbers use, and you have an opportunity to learn how to use it, wouldn't it make sense to learn how to use it, even if you choose not to use it on a regular basis? Just in case... Just so you can tell if a new partner you are about to trust your life to is using it correctly? Just so you can use it if your ATC is not available and the only option is your friends gri-gri?
I wouldn't say that never using a gri-gri will make you "deficient" as a climber. Obviously, there were plenty of great climbers whose entire climbing career unfolded before gri-gri's were ever out there.
But on a flip side, how many of those climbers of old who never used a gri-gri would have passed up an opportunity to use one if it HAD been available to them?
Some people are passionate about only one particular device. Some people are mostly climbing in the situation where a gri-gri won't work (can't do a 2-rope belay with a gri-gri, after all). But it always comes back to this: there is a reason why a majority of climbers with many years of climbing under their belt choose to use a gri-gri or other locking-assist devices in many situations, even though they are proficient with a tube-style device (or Munter hitch, or hip belay, for that matter). And that reason is simple: they tried it, and they liked it.
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shockabuku
Nov 16, 2011, 3:41 PM
Post #48 of 118
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fresh wrote: so does anyone know how much more force will be put on the top piece when the belayer is using a grigri vs when they are using an ATC? I tried searching but all I got was a bunch of petty arguments.
Petzl used to have a fall force calculator but they seem to have gotten rid of it. There are some others around but some are clearly not correct (i.e. http://www.myoan.net/...t/climbforcecal.html, which doesn't even calculate the correct number for fall factor).
This one (http://www.livephysics.com/...-falling-object.html) might be able to give you an idea how much difference limited slip in an ATC vs. essentially no slip in a Grigri makes if 1. it actually has decent mechanics built into it and 2. you know how to do it. It's not going to give you a relevant numerical answer however.
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rossross
Nov 16, 2011, 3:59 PM
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rangerrob wrote: Umm..Ross? What exactly is a pro climber? Is that anything like a pro basketball player? How about a pro football player? Do pro climbers get multi year contracts for hundreds of thousands of dollars? There is no such thing as a pro climber. The best that a climber can do is get their gear for free, and possibly get their trips paid for. Name one climber who is getting paid a salary for climbing stuff on their own? I don't know of many top level climbers who are hauling up a grigris on big alpine routes. Colin Haley? Ueli Steck? Freddie Wilkinson? Rolando? Has anyone seen these guys on a big face with a grigri? I'd love to see the pictures. Hell I would doubt the Giri Giri boys even use one...and if anyone would it would be them!!
*face palm* glad to see people have responded to this before I got a chance.
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cracklover
Nov 16, 2011, 5:14 PM
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fresh wrote: so does anyone know how much more force will be put on the top piece when the belayer is using a grigri vs when they are using an ATC? I tried searching but all I got was a bunch of petty arguments.
I think I've seen testing, but can't find a working link right now.
The reality, though, is that it will vary tremendously depending upon the particulars of the situation.
The simple variables are these:
1 - In a typical fall, a gri-gri will not slip enough to appreciably lower the maximum force.
2 - Most friction devices will multiply the amount of force you can put on the rope by 5 - 8 times.
Already in #2, just based on the friction multiplier (type of device, high-friction or low friction mode, etc), you can see the huge variability involved.
But there's way more than that. Here are some of the additional components that factor into #2:
- You can put much less force on a skinny rope than a fat one before it starts slipping through your hands. So that 8 x multiplier could be 8 x 30lbs for a skinny, versus 8 x 60 for a fatty.
- A big strong guy may be able to hold two to three times the force of a smaller person.
- Leather gloves slightly lower the point at which the rope starts sliding (lowering the force) but radically increase your chances of maintaining control of a fall in which a lot of rope will slide.
Just based on the above, there are falls in which the gri-gri and the friction device could put the same force on the top piece, or the gri-gri could put way more force on it.
Then there are issues having nothing to do with #2. For example:
- Based on the rope's path around rock obstacles and through intermediate pieces of gear, the amount of force the belayer feels can be reduced to very low numbers. This is what the climber feels as rope drag. So the same fall might generate enough to cause the rope to start slipping through a friction device (lowering the force) or not to slip at all, just based on running over a roof.
- The belayer getting lifted by a hard fall may reduce the force felt by the top piece considerably. In some cases it might lower the force to below the point that would make a difference between a friction device and a gri-gri.
Sorry if that didn't answer your question the way you'd like.
What it boils down to is that there are certainly many situations in which using a gri-gri versus a standard tube device could mean the difference between whether or not a top piece fails, and other cases in which it would make no difference.
GO
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