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marc801
Nov 18, 2011, 5:24 PM
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rangerrob wrote: So if I were a professional climber some person or company would pay me to walk up to any random crag, flake out a rope, and climb a 2 pitch 5.10. This is what I mean by being a professional climber.
From Miriam-Webster:
professional:
a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer>
b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier>
c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>
profession:
a : a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive academic preparation
b : a principal calling, vocation, or employment
c : the whole body of persons engaged in a calling
You and olderic can argue your position all you like, but you're wrong. If you were to actually ask any of the big names we're talking about, you'd find that they self-describe as being "professional climbers".
http://www.proclimbers.com/index.php
http://www.climbing.com/...am_-_perspective271/
http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._no_limits__858.html
http://www.brandiproffitt.com/
http://matadornetwork.com/...ng-to-join-olympics/
http://sonnietrotter.com/
And yes, Patagonia pays its professional climbers to climb:
http://www.patagonia.com/...onia.go?assetid=2897
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cracklover
Nov 18, 2011, 5:33 PM
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shockabuku wrote: cracklover wrote: guangzhou wrote: Marginal placements by definition are more likely to pull when hit with any impact force. They answered the question, is the gri gri a safe belay device for gear protected climbing, yes it is. Marginal gear near the belay is like to pull with an ATC too. I think you strongly overstate your case. Last weekend I was belaying my wife as she led up a route in Indian Creek a day after it rained. I knew the route was going to be very hard for her, particularly the first 30 feet of it. I also knew that I outweigh her by a lot, and with the rope running straight, there would be no friction from the rock or gear. For that lead on that day, I am 100% certain that my choosing a device that slips at a lower load added a meaningful level of safety to my belay. I really couldn't care less if you Guangzou, and every professional climber on Earth belays with a gri-gri all the time. I've read deeply enough to understand the forces involved, the failure modes, and the consequences. And beyond a doubt in my mind, there is a fall my wife could have taken that day that might have led to very severe consequences had I been belaying with a gri-gri, and no consequences with the device I was using. You can chant your mantra "a gri-gri is safe, a gri-gri is safe" all you want, if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy. But when I have another person's life in my hands, and I know there is a better and safer choice, no fuckin' way. Cheers, GO Wow, virtual fisticuffs over a subject that apparently no one has meaningful, concrete information on.
Who says no-one has meaningful information? All the stuff I said in my first post about the various factors comes from decent studies I've read.
Because I actually have seen those results, it's not hard to put the pieces together. Sure, there are plenty of cases where it won't make a difference. But to talk about it like it's a settled issue in which it's just declared "safe", when in fact it could make the difference between severe injury and not, is plenty enough to get me a little uppity. lol
GO
(edited to quote the post I was responding to for clarity)
(This post was edited by cracklover on Nov 18, 2011, 5:39 PM)
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olderic
Nov 18, 2011, 6:50 PM
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But did she send? I hope so.
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olderic
Nov 18, 2011, 7:05 PM
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Which actually says:
Our ambassadors are more than just athletes; they are field testers for our gear and storytellers for our tribe. Patagonia ambassadors work closely with the design department to test, refine and validate our products in the harshest and most remote locations on the planet. And when unique, adventurous tales arise from that testing, we will share them with you through our catalogs and Web site.
Sounds to me like they are product testers. And story tellers. But I guess the key is "self described" - gotcha. Better watch out for how Joe Kinder self describes....
I think the comparison to sports breaks down in too many ways. Most sports where there are "pro" involve a much more extensive formal competition environment. Along with typically a lot of spectators. Pure climbing usually doesn't go there although there are exceptions - early ascents of the Nose or the Eiger for example.
But I have thought of a couple of situations where people do get paid for just doing their thing and they might be analogous.
1. The person who gets paid to just think - high priced think tanks, The old Bell Labs fellows for example.
2. Artists that get some support to just create with no constraints - more common in "gongshow"'s socialist European examples.
Petty rare though - not a viable career path for most.
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redlude97
Nov 18, 2011, 7:23 PM
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olderic wrote: Which actually says: Our ambassadors are more than just athletes; they are field testers for our gear and storytellers for our tribe. Patagonia ambassadors work closely with the design department to test, refine and validate our products in the harshest and most remote locations on the planet. And when unique, adventurous tales arise from that testing, we will share them with you through our catalogs and Web site. Sounds to me like they are product testers. And story tellers. But I guess the key is "self described" - gotcha. Better watch out for how Joe Kinder self describes.... I think the comparison to sports breaks down in too many ways. Most sports where there are "pro" involve a much more extensive formal competition environment. Along with typically a lot of spectators. Pure climbing usually doesn't go there although there are exceptions - early ascents of the Nose or the Eiger for example. But I have thought of a couple of situations where people do get paid for just doing their thing and they might be analogous. 1. The person who gets paid to just think - high priced think tanks, The old Bell Labs fellows for example. 2. Artists that get some support to just create with no constraints - more common in "gongshow"'s socialist European examples. Petty rare though - not a viable career path for most.
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dynosore
Nov 18, 2011, 7:52 PM
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guangzhou wrote: rangerrob wrote: Fair enough dude. I'm just saying that I don't like people belaying me on lead with a grigri. Just not the right tool I think. Why opt for the heavy, expensive tool when can get the same or better result with a les expensive, lighter option? Just my opinion, not fact It's just a tool. If the person who's using it is proficient, you won't be able totell the difference between a Gri Gri, ATC, or Guide (Whatever) device when you are leading. Used properly, they will all feed out slack and will all catch you properly.
True, but if your belayer isn't proficient, or messes up, or you knock a rock down on them, there is a world of difference. The difference between "hey are you paying attention" and "heeeeeyyyy whump". In no way am I excusing or advocating bab belaying. But I've read too many stories of how "experienced" "competent" belayers ended up with rope burnt hands and decked leaders.
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olderic
Nov 18, 2011, 8:58 PM
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cracklover wrote: olderic wrote: But did she send? I hope so. Nope, hung all over it, I'm afraid. No actual falls. Just really kicked her butt - couldn't figure out the pods. GO
It can't be that she hates cracks can it (not that I would blame her) - but that just wouldn't seem right. Unless opposites DO attract.
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rangerrob
Nov 18, 2011, 8:59 PM
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Marc I have climbed and made money, (albeit a paltry sum) by giving a slideshow. Can I now "self describe" myself as a pro climber? I can self describe myself as good looking too, doesn't necessarily make it so.
This is a ridiculous argument until we come up with an agreed upon definition of what a pro anything actually means. Wikipedia offers this:
A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialised set of tasks and orchestrate them for a fee. One who is payed for a service or receives a fee for their work or effort. Traditional examples of professionals included doctors, lawyers, and clergy but is now more widely used to include estate agents, surveyors , environmental scientists, forensic scientists, educators and many more. The term is also used in sport to differentiate amateur players from those paid for their work. Hence professional footballer or professional golfer. Someone who is able to procure their knowledge and capabilty of a particular subject or area of experience.
In some cultures, the term is used as shorthand to describe a particular social stratum of well educated, mostly salaried workers, who enjoy considerable work autonomy, a comfortable salary, and are commonly engaged in creative and intellectually challenging work. Less technically, it may also refer to a person having impressive competence in a particular activity.
Because of the personal and confidential nature of many professional services and thus the necessity to place a great deal of trust in them, most professionals are subject to strict codes of conduct enshrining rigorous ethical and moral obligations.
I would argue that the term professional should not be applied to any sports related activities. It should be reserved for "professions" Attaching the term to sports really undermines the word I think. It taints the activity. I have never thought a person should be paid for playing a game or recreational activity, including climbing. If some company wants to give an athlete money for wearing or using their product, then that's fine...it still doesn't make them a professional, exceot maybe a professional endorser
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marc801
Nov 18, 2011, 9:05 PM
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dynosore wrote: In no way am I excusing or advocating bab belaying. But I've read too many stories of how "experienced" "competent" belayers ended up with rope burnt hands and decked leaders.
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dynosore
Nov 18, 2011, 9:56 PM
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marc801 wrote: dynosore wrote: In no way am I excusing or advocating bab belaying. But I've read too many stories of how "experienced" "competent" belayers ended up with rope burnt hands and decked leaders. Curiously, bitd, before gri-gri's and climbing gyms, if there was a decking incident once in 5 years, it was a lot. Now we have discussion threads asking how many times you have decked. In the Gunks, we'd go consecutive seasons without any major accidents, let alone someone dropping someone.
It's the blind leading the blind. I only started climbing about nine years ago, and the difference in attitudes in that short time is shocking. The first generation of people who learned to climb solely in a gym now are considered experts by many noobs. Scary stuff!
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marc801
Nov 19, 2011, 12:02 AM
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rangerrob wrote: Marc I have climbed and made money, (albeit a paltry sum) by giving a slideshow. Can I now "self describe" myself as a pro climber?
rangerrob wrote: This is a ridiculous argument until we come up with an agreed upon definition of what a pro anything actually means.
rangerrob wrote: Wikipedia offers this: A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialised set of tasks and orchestrate them for a fee. One who is payed for a service or receives a fee for their work or effort. Traditional examples of professionals included doctors, lawyers, and clergy but is now more widely used to include estate agents, surveyors , environmental scientists, forensic scientists, educators and many more. The term is also used in sport to differentiate amateur players from those paid for their work. Hence professional footballer or professional golfer. Someone who is able to procure their knowledge and capability of a particular subject or area of experience. In some cultures, the term is used as shorthand to describe a particular social stratum of well educated, mostly salaried workers, who enjoy considerable work autonomy, a comfortable salary, and are commonly engaged in creative and intellectually challenging work. Less technically, it may also refer to a person having impressive competence in a particular activity. Because of the personal and confidential nature of many professional services and thus the necessity to place a great deal of trust in them, most professionals are subject to strict codes of conduct enshrining rigorous ethical and moral obligations.
rangerrob wrote: I would argue that the term professional should not be applied to any sports related activities.
rangerrob wrote: It should be reserved for "professions" Attaching the term to sports really undermines the word I think. It taints the activity. I have never thought a person should be paid for playing a game or recreational activity, including climbing.
The true ridiculous argument is this quaint notion of yours about tainting the sport and its supposed purity that must have been delivered by angels.
rangerrob wrote: If some company wants to give an athlete money for wearing or using their product, then that's fine...it still doesn't make them a professional...
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guangzhou
Nov 19, 2011, 12:37 AM
Post #88 of 118
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cracklover wrote: guangzhou wrote: Marginal placements by definition are more likely to pull when hit with any impact force. They answered the question, is the gri gri a safe belay device for gear protected climbing, yes it is. Marginal gear near the belay is like to pull with an ATC too. I think you strongly overstate your case. Last weekend I was belaying my wife as she led up a route in Indian Creek a day after it rained. I knew the route was going to be very hard for her, particularly the first 30 feet of it. I also knew that I outweigh her by a lot, and with the rope running straight, there would be no friction from the rock or gear. For that lead on that day, I am 100% certain that my choosing a device that slips at a lower load added a meaningful level of safety to my belay. I really couldn't care less if you Guangzou, and every professional climber on Earth belays with a gri-gri all the time. I've read deeply enough to understand the forces involved, the failure modes, and the consequences. And beyond a doubt in my mind, there is a fall my wife could have taken that day that might have led to very severe consequences had I been belaying with a gri-gri, and no consequences with the device I was using. You can chant your mantra "a gri-gri is safe, a gri-gri is safe" all you want, if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy. But when I have another person's life in my hands, and I know there is a better and safer choice, no fuckin' way. Cheers, GO
Overstating, not really. Marginal is marginal. I also added that the gri gri isn't the best tool for all situations. In the case you describe, a gri could still provide a dynamic belay by simply having the belayer walk into the fall.
I rarely see people actually give dynamic belays where they let the rope slip through. I know it happens, but rarely from what I see.
As for the rock being wet making it soft, I think that would play a bigger roll on safety. Like all things climbing, a calculated risk that was evaluated.
In climbing, I can't think of too many, rules that are 100% all the time. (Never let go of the break hand being a 100% rule)
Maybe she'll send next time.
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rangerrob
Nov 19, 2011, 2:29 AM
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Whatever Marc. I disagree with you, and you can call me quixotic and all sorts of other things, but my opinion is just that. I'm not diminishing these climbers accomplishments. I just don't think the term professional is appropriate to use to describe a climber.
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guangzhou
Nov 19, 2011, 2:59 AM
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rangerrob wrote: Whatever Marc. I disagree with you, and you can call me quixotic and all sorts of other things, but my opinion is just that. I'm not diminishing these climbers accomplishments. I just don't think the term professional is appropriate to use to describe a climber.
Again, you have an opinion based on emotion versus facts. Under every definition of professional that has been presented here, people have given examples of climbers that meet the criteria.
This morning on the news, they were talking about profession basketball players. A sport I don't know much about, but they were looking at the top salaries of the players. All of them more then doubled their salaries with endorsement. Even now, they are on strike and still making millions of dollars in Endorsement revenue because they are professional athletes.
Again, your opinion is wrong, even the examples you give have clearly shown it to be wrong.
Professional climbers get paid because of their climbing skills. They are paid retainers, salaries, and endorsements because of what they accomplish while climbing. They can sell books they write and do motivational talk tours because of what they have experience while climbing. A climber who can earn a living via slideshows about his climbing accomplishment has definitely reach professional climber status. Guides and top climbers are both earn money by climbing.
A professional photographer makes money selling pretty photos, a professional climber earn money through his climbing skills. Climbing hard or guiding are both example of climbing skills. One requires an athletic effort, the other is more technical and teaching.
It's time to move on for me. I have a climbing gym and guide service to run.
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rangerrob
Nov 21, 2011, 4:09 PM
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Gonzo, facts are either correct or incorrect. You either agree or disagree with an opinions. Opinions arent wrong or right, they just are. You can say that my opinion is based in incorrect facts, but you cant say my opinion is wrong. That's just silly. That's like saying my religion is wrong.
Fact: coffe has caffeine in it
Opinion: coffee tastes terrible
Fact: Tommy Caldwell makes $XX dollars from his climbing activities
Opinion: I don't think Tommy Caldwell is a professional.
see the difference Gonzo?
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dr_feelgood
Nov 21, 2011, 5:46 PM
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rangerrob wrote: Gonzo, facts are either correct or incorrect. You either agree or disagree with an opinions. Opinions arent wrong or right, they just are. You can say that my opinion is based in incorrect facts, but you cant say my opinion is wrong. That's just silly. That's like saying my religion is wrong. Fact: coffe has caffeine in it Opinion: coffee tastes terrible Fact: Tommy Caldwell makes $XX dollars from his climbing activities Opinion: I don't think Tommy Caldwell is a professional. see the difference Gonzo?
Fact: You are a carbon based life form.
Opinion: You have a room temperature IQ.
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shockabuku
Nov 21, 2011, 5:51 PM
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dr_feelgood wrote: rangerrob wrote: Gonzo, facts are either correct or incorrect. You either agree or disagree with an opinions. Opinions arent wrong or right, they just are. You can say that my opinion is based in incorrect facts, but you cant say my opinion is wrong. That's just silly. That's like saying my religion is wrong. Fact: coffe has caffeine in it Opinion: coffee tastes terrible Fact: Tommy Caldwell makes $XX dollars from his climbing activities Opinion: I don't think Tommy Caldwell is a professional. see the difference Gonzo? Opinion: You have a room temperature IQ.
Do you know that to be true? Or is that an assumption?
Oh wait - I guess I have to define assumptions now.
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rangerrob
Nov 21, 2011, 7:42 PM
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If we're assuming room temperature is 72F then I'm doing pretty well on this site!! HA!
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marc801
Nov 21, 2011, 8:38 PM
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rangerrob wrote: Gonzo, facts are either correct or incorrect. You either agree or disagree with an opinions. Opinions arent wrong or right, they just are. You can say that my opinion is based in incorrect facts, but you cant say my opinion is wrong. That's just silly. That's like saying my religion is wrong. Fact: coffe has caffeine in it Opinion: coffee tastes terrible Fact: Tommy Caldwell makes $XX dollars from his climbing activities Opinion: I don't think Tommy Caldwell is a professional. see the difference Gonzo?
First off, facts are facts - there is no such thing as an incorrect fact. A fact, by definition, is correct and true.
Yes, we can agree or disagree with opinions, but also, an opinion can be incorrect - if it is arrived at by faulty logic, misunderstanding or misapplication of facts, or by ignoring facts entirely.
Most of us disagree with your opinion that Tommy Caldwell is not a professional climber. We disagree with it because it is a wrong opinion. It's wrong because it ignores the fact that the definition of professional includes and encompasses Tommy's endeavors as a climber.
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guangzhou
Nov 22, 2011, 1:00 AM
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rangerrob wrote: Gonzo, facts are either correct or incorrect. You either agree or disagree with an opinions. Opinions arent wrong or right, they just are. You can say that my opinion is based in incorrect facts, but you cant say my opinion is wrong. That's just silly. That's like saying my religion is wrong.
Thanks for clarifying my understanding of from from opinion. The whole world has just become much more clear.
In the case of opinions, they are indeed opinions that are wrong or right. Irregardless, opinions are something that you should be able to defend with personal experiences or facts in this case.
You stated they is no such things as professional climber then set criteria for what a professional is. Several users used you definition to prove that climbers were indeed professional by your definition.
A few more words were exchange and the term was redefined, same thing happened again. Now you are defending your opinion by saying it's my opinion, so it can't be wrong.
In reply to: Fact: coffe has caffeine in it Opinion: coffee tastes terrible Fact: Tommy Caldwell makes $XX dollars from his climbing activities Opinion: I don't think Tommy Caldwell is a professional. see the difference Gonzo?
Not really, by your definition, a professional is someone who make their money by doing the task. So, you just proved yourself wrong with the example above.
Room temperature being 72, I'm guessing your IQ is more like your climbing shoe size.
Opinions are something that one needs to be able to defend not just state.
I find all religions to be opinions anyways.
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olderic
Nov 22, 2011, 3:26 AM
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It seems that we have a difference of opinion then. In Rob's and my opinion (actually I shouldn't be assuming any thing for Rob) it doesn't count if you are making all your $$$ from endorsements and none just doing the fundamental thing. Yet all your examples - all the links describing them - come up with 0 examples of someone getting paid to climb. All the $$ come from endorsements, being reps, being ambassadors. You have been repeatedly challenged to come up with an example of someone getting paid simply or climbing and you have not been able to give one. Your definition of "professional" is more lax. It's your opinion of what the definition should be. It is not based on any facts.
So I guess you "win" by your definition and we "win" by ours. Although I still think the fact the some was a pro because they said so was hilarious and incredibly moronic even given rc.com standards.
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marc801
Nov 22, 2011, 3:58 AM
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olderic wrote: It seems that we have a difference of opinion then. In Rob's and my opinion (actually I shouldn't be assuming any thing for Rob) it doesn't count if you are making all your $$$ from endorsements and none just doing the fundamental thing. Yet all your examples - all the links describing them - come up with 0 examples of someone getting paid to climb. All the $$ come from endorsements, being reps, being ambassadors. You have been repeatedly challenged to come up with an example of someone getting paid simply or climbing and you have not been able to give one. Your definition of "professional" is more lax. It's your opinion of what the definition should be. It is not based on any facts. So I guess you "win" by your definition and we "win" by ours. Although I still think the fact the some was a pro because they said so was hilarious and incredibly moronic even given rc.com standards.
What is it that you don't get about the fact that we've pointed out that people like Caldwell, Sharma, and Honnold are indeed getting paid to just climb?
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guangzhou
Nov 22, 2011, 4:27 AM
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olderic wrote: It seems that we have a difference of opinion then. In Rob's and my opinion (actually I shouldn't be assuming any thing for Rob) it doesn't count if you are making all your $$$ from endorsements and none just doing the fundamental thing. Yet all your examples - all the links describing them - come up with 0 examples of someone getting paid to climb. All the $$ come from endorsements, being reps, being ambassadors. You have been repeatedly challenged to come up with an example of someone getting paid simply or climbing and you have not been able to give one. Your definition of "professional" is more lax. It's your opinion of what the definition should be. It is not based on any facts. So I guess you "win" by your definition and we "win" by ours. Although I still think the fact the some was a pro because they said so was hilarious and incredibly moronic even given rc.com standards.
Can you give me a professional in any field that meets the criteria you describe? I doubt it, but let's see what you come up with.
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areyoumydude
Nov 22, 2011, 5:01 AM
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