Squeezing down the cam arm is necessary to give slack fast for the climber to pull up rope to clip. What the Petzl video calls the "classic" method squeezes with all the fingers wrapped around to the top, with the thumb under to make a full grip. That was shown in the first set of photos. In the second set, the belayer did keep the brake rope in his fingers, as advised. Two fingers under is not much to release, and there has to be something to squeeze against. The video shows just the thumb pressing down the arm, but pressing against what support? While practicing, pulling up the climber rope will locate and stabilize the device in the carabiner, to be pushing down with the thumb; but in use, that doesn't work for me. I found that the index finger can hook under the lip on the brake side. That works well when I'm practicing the motion; but during a climb, the device is flopping around and I can't aim that well. Today, belaying a Trad lead, I was gripping any way that happened.

I thought that seeing a clip about to happen, I could hold the brake hand low to push up slack for the climber hand to pull without locking, but it locked anyway. Sigh. This is hard for me. Trad is much more complicated to watch and provide for than Sport. Also much slower, so more tiring from looking up so long. Trad is also a lot more fun to second, having to reverse the placements, but again a lot more tiring, holding a stance to peer into a crack to figure how to get a tiny cam out without jamming it worse and maybe losing it.

A very wiggly learning curve, for me.

.

Hey if all that is true, then I stand humbled and corrected. However I would still argue that there is no such thing as a pro climber. To me, the pursuit of the essence of climbing is seriously degraded when done for money and fame. To me, climbing is about the opposite of makign a living. Guides are making a living by guiding, not climbing. There IS a difference, however subtle you may think that difference is.

Of course these are all my opinions, and opinions are like assholes...everyone has one.

Sorry I couldn't identify Steph Davis. I am ashamed and humiliated, and I shall have to flog myself for not recognizing a "pro" climber immediately.

Hey if all that is true, then I stand humbled and corrected. However I would still argue that there is no such thing as a pro climber. To me, the pursuit of the essence of climbing is seriously degraded when done for money and fame. To me, climbing is about the opposite of makign a living. Guides are making a living by guiding, not climbing. There IS a difference, however subtle you may think that difference is.

Of course these are all my opinions, and opinions are like assholes...everyone has one.

Sorry I couldn't identify Steph Davis. I am ashamed and humiliated, and I shall have to flog myself for not recognizing a "pro" climber immediately.

Sorry if that didn't answer your question the way you'd like.

What it boils down to is that there are certainly many situations in which using a gri-gri versus a standard tube device could mean the difference between whether or not a top piece fails, and other cases in which it would make no difference.

GO

Many climbers before you have been able to get the technique. It does take practice. However if you cannot master it, lead belaying with the gri-gri may not be for you. Better to stick with a device you can operate perfectly every single time.

GO

Hey if all that is true, then I stand humbled and corrected. However I would still argue that there is no such thing as a pro climber. To me, the pursuit of the essence of climbing is seriously degraded when done for money and fame. To me, climbing is about the opposite of makign a living. Guides are making a living by guiding, not climbing. There IS a difference, however subtle you may think that difference is.

Of course these are all my opinions, and opinions are like assholes...everyone has one.

Sorry I couldn't identify Steph Davis. I am ashamed and humiliated, and I shall have to flog myself for not recognizing a "pro" climber immediately.

I am not out climbing, I'm out guiding,..... Of course climbing is involved...
RR

That is the most ridiculous bit of semantic nit-picking BS I've heard in a long time - perhaps ever. "Pursuit of the essence..."? WTF? Dude, they're making all their income by climbing. I can't think of a clearer definition of professional climber. Climbing for the sake of money and fame is well over 100 years old. And guiding isn't climbing? I'd think most guides would disagree with you. Have the painkillers for your ankle clouded your rational thinking ability?

The biggest names in traditional athletes may make the majority of their $$$ through endorsements and personal appearances - but they still make a lot just playing their game. So I'll go back to Rob's point - name me a climber who is getting paid for just climbing - not for climbing with Evolve shoes. Not for climbing with BD gear. Not for playing step and fetchit at a trade show when master calls...

Your example fails your own test. The biggest names in traditional sports aren't making money "just playing the game" - they're making money by playing for the Rangers or the Jets or the Giants. Playing for a sports franchise is basically the same as a pro climber being sponsored and paid by a gear manufacturer.

Nope. Can't compare to team sports. Use an individual sport which is what climbing is. Tennis, golf, boxing. Now even there I'll admit that the athletes still are constrained by certain expectations of the tour they are on etc. The problem is that the rewards in all those cases are based on competition results. Most people would say that pure climbing is not about competition. But no one is gong to get paid for just climbing in a vacuum. They are going to have to do something of worth to some sponsor to get paid. The closest yo could come wold be to be a trustafarian with a rich daddy.

Did you really just bring up golf? Tiger Woods makes the majority of his money through endorsements and hasn't won a thing in years. He certainly isn't living on his earnings

yes redlude, but the point thayt Eric is making is that Tiger can play golf, and earn money if he wins the competition. The whole argument that a football player is getting paid to play FOR a team is silly I think. They are getting paid to play the game. Is there a climber out there that earns a salary for just climbing?

Thanks for backing me up Eric! I was beginning to feel like a dunce. I'm used to it, but I still don't like it!

This probably deserves it's own thread so that this thread can go back to the original topic...those stupid and heavy grigris.

So let's take the sports end of this out of it. One could argue that Clim bing isnt even a sport. What does it mean to be a professional? To be paid for a service or activity? A plumber performs a service and someone pays him. A bank teller processes bak transactions and gets paid for the actions.

So if I were a professional climber some person or company would pay me to walk up to any random crag, flake out a rope, and climb a 2 pitch 5.10. This is what I mean by being a professional climber.

Would Black Diamond pay some rock Star to go to the cliff five days a week and do the same route over and over again, like a worker in a factory?

I guess part of the quibbling is about about whether being a "pro" means you earn your living from it vs. get some compensation - free t-shirt - woo-hoo from it. To earn your living it petty much needs to be a recognized "profession: for you to be a :pro: - although genius is often about inventing new professions. But I think it is far fetched to think that just climbing is going to be a profession.

What is the value of someone just flaking their (non branded) rope, lacing up their (non branded) shoes and just climbing? All your examples are about providing a real tangible service.

TC will come down from the latest Dawn Wall endeavor with tons of photos with his sponsors gear in them, make continuous blog entries thanking his sponsors and so on. Working his butt off with non climbing endeavors.

But if you want to define a "pro" as someone who gets some compensation of any form - then yeah there are some who are pro climbers with no obligations.

Again - don't get hung up on guiding as an argument. Being a good successful guide has very little to do with climbing. The average graduate from a state teacher's college will be a better guide then the average world cup climbing competitor.

Don't mean to interrupt things, but this is back on topic.

Here are some answers to questions posed in this thread.

I have found only one website that tested forces generated by Grigri versus those generated by an ATC. It's Geir Hundal’s site

http://www.geir.com/mythbuster.html

The Grigri generates more force. Visit the site for details, but here’s Geir’s bottom line:

“The small difference between the lower end of the gear's strength range and the forces we measured make it clear that there is a narrow margin between what the [traditional] gear can sustain and the forces that will be placed on if a fall occurs. Using a GriGri for a belay significantly narrows this margin because of its design. For this reason, a device which allows the rope to slip more easily through the device (such as an ATC) is a safer choice for traditional climbing.”

A year and a half ago Petzl had this on their website.

“Belay device for 10 to 11 mm (9.7 mm is acceptable) CE (EN 892)
and/or UIAA certified dynamic single ropes (core + sheath).
The GRIGRI is designed for indoor wall climbing or for rock climbing
on well-protected routes where anchors meet the EN/UIAA standard
(25 kN). It can be used to belay and lower a leader or a second.
It should not be used for mountaineering or adventure climbing’

I can no longer find that warning on their website. A Google search led to Petzl’s German website showing that this missing quote was still there. Curious.

However, even more curious is what Petzl is now saying:

http://www.petzl.com/...ice-assisted-braking

“Wed, 09/03/2011 - 17:39 — community_manager
Hello Nicholas,
Yes both tools Grigri 1 and Grigri 2 can be used for belaying in trad climbing with a single rope. We remind you that the major factors which reduce impact force on anchors are : the performance of your rope, the motion of the belayer, the friction of the rope in the gear and on the rock. the movement of the rope through the belay device is a minor factor. Never attach a grigri directly to an anchor to belay a leader.
Thank you for your interest “

The answer lacks quantification and ignores the effects on marginal placements and high forces that can be generated in falls near the anchor in multi-pitch climbing. I’ll be asking Petzl how they reconcile their current recommendations with their earlier warnings.

I’m not persuaded by the fact that top-rated climbers use the Grigri on routes with marginal gear or on multi-pitch climbs. I’m more interested in saving my own ass so that I do not use the Grigri in these circumstances.

Gratias et valete bene!
RobertusPunctumPacificus

Marginal placements by definition are more likely to pull when hit with any impact force. They answered the question, is the gri gri a safe belay device for gear protected climbing, yes it is. Marginal gear near the belay is like to pull with an ATC too.

I think you strongly overstate your case.

Last weekend I was belaying my wife as she led up a route in Indian Creek a day after it rained. I knew the route was going to be very hard for her, particularly the first 30 feet of it. I also knew that I outweigh her by a lot, and with the rope running straight, there would be no friction from the rock or gear.

For that lead on that day, I am 100% certain that my choosing a device that slips at a lower load added a meaningful level of safety to my belay. I really couldn't care less if you Guangzou, and every professional climber on Earth belays with a gri-gri all the time. I've read deeply enough to understand the forces involved, the failure modes, and the consequences. And beyond a doubt in my mind, there is a fall my wife could have taken that day that might have led to very severe consequences had I been belaying with a gri-gri, and no consequences with the device I was using.

You can chant your mantra "a gri-gri is safe, a gri-gri is safe" all you want, if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy. But when I have another person's life in my hands, and I know there is a better and safer choice, no fuckin' way.

Cheers,

GO