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dmckj
Feb 26, 2005, 7:01 PM
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Ed,
One more thing.
Devo has been whining to me about residuals in a PM.
I suppose in fairness for the Timbertop thing he deserves a cut.
I'll pass him a 5% share if Dangle does same and you do 2%.
BTW, not to pressure you, but I've been getting some serious offers from headhunters for another up-and-coming thread.....
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flamer
Feb 26, 2005, 8:22 PM
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In reply to: flamer's playing it safe keeping any post with the word "backside" very short. Hey flamer, you didn't really think I was saying that YOU were cheap did you? (Recall Boy has a different way of dealing with a check .PM for it.) Sorry about the abbreviated post but it was too tempting and seems to have vapor locked BS.
HUH???
Ron you keep sounding like a goof......
josh
P.S.
Sorry to disrupt the slam fest to give out a useful suggestion....
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dangle
Feb 26, 2005, 8:38 PM
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In reply to: And now gentle readers, it is time for a new show.... Dave's Daily Dangle Deconstruction Brought to you by Rawl...maker of fine anchor fasteners, and by Dandy Dean's Kosher Klimbing shop in Springdale Utah........... It becomes too close to Euro-climbing. If such a route is promoted by someone as a '50 Classic' in a public forum this is sending a message, a POTENT message, to younger wall climbers that these types of routes are the apex of Zion climbing. I vehemently disagree. Has anyone counted the actual number of bolts on that route? Off the top of my head I would put it at comfortably over 80, this on a route that is barely 1000 feet tall. This 'anything goes' attitude, actively fostered today in large part by climbing gyms and sport climbing, is like weeds you can't get rid of. All of you aspiring Zion climbers: please don't succumb to this mentality. It degrades the sport. As for my routes being 'precious', thanks ........... I am not like Dangle: It is not my canyon, nor are they 'my' routes to own or control. Deconstruction/translation continued: Ron...I think Mohammed Ali said this more succintly 'I AM THE GREATEST'. Certainly, more powerful, direct, and less self-aggrandizing. Again, this is Dangle at his finest. Textbook. Let's analyze this.... Has anyone ever heard me suggest I ever did a first wall ascent solo? Is there any written or promoted claim anywhere that I was the first to lead every pitch on Monkeyfinger? Fact is, I never have put up a wall solo. I started soloing what is now the Swiss-American in December of some year (long before it was climbed) but came down because, frankly, it was dark and lonely and depressing. Started rope soloing the route 'Hello Mary Lou' on the Angelino Wall (not the 'Apex' wall) and got halfway up. Problem there was that it was all outstanding free climbing and I had no way to free climb it on solo lead -- I felt I was degrading the route aiding it (I was). So I rounded up Bob Yoho and we freed all but the first and part of one of the upper pitches. OUTSTANDING route that never gets done. As to Lovelace and Silmaril, I never tried to rope solo those other than for the fact that my valiant partners in both cases wanted 'days off' to recover. I didn't. But the implications are that I am nefariously 'unaware' (recurring conspiracy theme) and thus intentionally misleading, that I have tried and consistently failed at solo first ascents, and that I have been self-promotional. The reader should note that my ONLY reason for stating that I had put up more walls than Dangle was simply to point out the most obvious reason for his vendetta against myself in particular. He just can't STAND that simple fact and, worst of all, that he'll never catch up to me (insert shameless and goading gloating with snickering soundtrack here). Also, another gem, in a single paragraph Dangle mis-applies names. You see, Dangle discovered every line and climb in Zion back in Jurassic times when the sands were being deposited. So he applies his own name 'Fang Wall' to 'Lovelace' (a wall and route he has never climbed) and 'Apex Wall' to another climb and wall he hasn't climbed. Clever, huh? Really, I don't mind much, but it is important for thread readers to be aware of his style in these matters and the blatant hipocrisy attendant in one who portrays himself as the defender of Zion Truth and Accuracy. But the Hoover Vacuum of Logic award goes to......... ..........Sounds dark and sinister and black-helicopters-in-the-nightish, doesn't it? Translated loosely....this means something like 'I am an above-it-all sort of guy who was unwillingly forced to expose an historical conspiracy in the making that I at least partially got the protagonists to admit. None of this was my fault.' I am not sure what thread Dangle was reading, but it certainly wasn't this one. You know, one reason I gave up pot smoking when I was 17 was I began to realize it was making me paranoid. HAH!!!....there is that damned canyon shaking laugh again....could it mean.?....is that white dust I see slowly filtering in from the heavens?....is it really time for....possibly..... Drinkin Beer Are Ya??
The kosher joke isn't.
It was 50 FAVORITE climbs. If Dave didn't like it why did he repeat it? Did he smell another dog?
I've done Prodigal more than ten times and have moved beyond attempting to maintain my routes. But if Jones makes good on his threat to remove fixed gear a lot of other climbers will be disappointed.
I never said that Dave had claimed a solo FA. I just wondered, with all his great deeds and some known attempts, HOW MANY?
I still maintain that Middendorf's unwillingness to grant that his history would be less ambiguous if it read,"in the late '70s and early '80s" RESPECTIVELY, and far more importantly that the Terrier's UNWILLINGNESS to DENY '70s climbs dovetails in there rather neatly.
Dave's making light of real and documented hate crimes, indeed the suggestion of Dean being kosher, betrays his own hateful nature (OK. OK. I know. It was obvious already.)
C'mon Jones. How about a story that makes us happy to be climbers?
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dangle
Feb 26, 2005, 8:49 PM
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Josh,
perhaps you didn't catch Dave's misinterpretation of my earlier question. (I wasn't suggesting anyone was cheap among the people at the meal you mentioned.)
The abbreviated post I refered to was the chopped down version of your post. For someone that feels about Mormons the way you do I figured you'd understand.
You do don't you? Backside? Kindnesses???
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dmckj
Feb 27, 2005, 12:48 AM
Post #430 of 667
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In reply to: But if Jones makes good on his threat to remove fixed gear a lot of other climbers will be disappointed.
Huh??? The only route I erased was the 100% artificial Climb Against Nature. I'm not into removing fixed gear. Have never, and would never, make such a 'threat'. More crowd manipulation I fear....
BTW, I have ZERO qualms about people doing and enjoying Prodigal Son. It is a fun way to spend the day. In bits and pieces it is 'the' natural line for that part of the face. I further, if you can believe it, admire the diligence in putting it up in its current state. I do have problem with putting up any more of its kind with so many bolts. I also have a HUGE problem with folks considering it a Zion 'classic' owing to its overbolted nature. Touchstone would have been far more deserving of being honored as a classic 'favorite' route, and one I would wholeheartedly agree with. For example, I think Touchstone is better than Moonlight, Spaceshot, Prodigal. (The gentle thread readers might be interested to know that I put Spaceshot on my 'B' list of FA's. From my perspective, better routes include.....Lovelace, Shune's, The Vigil, Golden Years. But that's just my view.)
In reply to: I never said that Dave had claimed a solo FA. I just wondered, with all his great deeds and some known attempts, HOW MANY?
ZERO. NONE. I am an unmitigated failure in my two serious, but half-hearted, attempts of solo first ascents. Every night I look at the photo of Dangle posted above my bed and I sigh deeply and think.......'some day I'll get up a solo first ascent just like him'. But maybe not! Dangle is the undisputed King of the solo first ascents. (Actually, a largely unnoted historical figure is the maniacally driven Jim Beyer. To my knowledge, Jim did a heck of a lot more first ascents than Fischer, AND he did solo ascents. But then I wouldn't accuse Ron trying to subvert that...or....?)
In reply to: I still maintain that Middendorf's ....... history would be less ambiguous if it read,"in the late '70s and early '80s" RESPECTIVELY
Hey...I am completely and utterly O.K. with that, if this makes you happier. Again, I don't much care. There, was that so hard? Actually, if that DOES make you happy, let's strike up a band!!! I'll even go as far as to post all of the chronological dates of my FA's on this very thread ONCE I get back into the country!!
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flamer
Feb 27, 2005, 12:54 AM
Post #431 of 667
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In reply to: Josh, perhaps you didn't catch Dave's misinterpretation of my earlier question. (I wasn't suggesting anyone was cheap among the people at the meal you mentioned.) The abbreviated post I refered to was the chopped down version of your post. For someone that feels about Mormons the way you do I figured you'd understand. You do don't you? Backside? Kindnesses???
Ok got it....
josh
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grayhghost
Feb 27, 2005, 1:34 AM
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I like it more when Dave can weave in personal
attacks within a story rather than Ron just spewing
the hate he can't handle himself. Keep up the story
telling, and if you have to sling mud, do it within a
good F.A. tale. Now get back in the ring and knock
eachother out.
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dangle
Feb 27, 2005, 1:54 AM
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The Terrier needs to take it up with Kim. Didn't she call it a favorite.
I don't know of any solo FAs by Scott but before cams he often ran it out enough to make a belayer ornamental. He more than anyone deserves distinction for the boldness of his approach to Zion climbing in the late '70s. I'm glad that Jones is willing to grant that he was part of the "second wave" that built upon routes like Moonlight and Touchstone as well as the emergence of camming technology in order to further realize Zion's potential.
I am flattered that he has my picture above his bed and am only mildly perturbed as to its function. He never said anything on Earth Orbit Ledge.
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chairmanmeow
Feb 27, 2005, 5:54 PM
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In reply to: Chouinard had only barely mass marketed the original pile jacket and not yet degraded himself into Patagucchi...
My choice would have been Pradagonia, but Patagucci works too.
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brianinslc
Feb 27, 2005, 8:38 PM
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In reply to: The Terrier needs to take it up with Kim. Didn't she call it a favorite.
Curious about that, too. Maybe, for balance, the book needed a couple Zion routes to go along with the dignitaries chosen for inclusion. I heard tell that a few folk didn't want to be included. Any idear who?
The pictures of Kim's solo of Lunar X are pretty neat. Almost surprised she didn't pick that. Although, maybe, to avoid routes like were in the original Fifty Classics (unobtainium!), maybe one that appealed more to the masses and was more "doable" and/or more popular was what the author went for. Or, was a special climb for Kim.
Hard to believe that CF went for Sunlight Buttress as his favorite in the US. Wow. But, pretty neat too.
In reply to: I don't know of any solo FAs by Scott but before cams he often ran it out enough to make a belayer ornamental. He more than anyone deserves distinction for the boldness of his approach to Zion climbing in the late '70s.
Curious about the Eagle Crags. Didn't Scott do a bunch of routes out there? Any chance of hearing some of that history?
Thanks,
Brian in SLC
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rockprodigy
Feb 28, 2005, 3:25 AM
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About the 50 favorites debacle. I heard third-hand from the editor, Mark Kroese, that Johnny was "going" to choose Moonlight, so everyone else stayed away from it, then, at the last minute, he changed his mind.
Weak excuse if you ask me. I kinda think Kroese should have taken more responsibility with the route selection, rather than leaving it up to nearly 50 insecure egos. Talk about "unobtanium"...you can add "unclassic" as well.
"Wilford coulior" on "Point Blanchard"...yeah, definite classic.
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golsen
Mar 1, 2005, 9:01 AM
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Hi all,
quite the thread. I don’t know if some of this belongs here but since I know some of you on here from many years ago I have a couple Zions stories to tell. No history making, probably not even any history substantiation but what the hell...Furthermore, my notes below are simply on here as the facts as I remember them and I do not have any axes to grind with any of you. Quite the contrary, I appreciated Ron's significant efforts on Cerberus and his partners on Spaceshot as well as Jeff Lowe's so that I could learn to climb big walls in a beautiful environment. I apologize for the lengthy thread.
From my perspective in the early 80's Zion was a backwater place, perfect to go climb a wall that not many people had climbed. Don’t get me wrong, backwater is good and certainly the walls of Zion were and still are awesome. It was 1981 or so when I went to try Cerberus as my first wall. I don’t remember how we met Ron but once we started the first pitch he came up and talked to us. It was cool and he seemed to be eager to have someone try his routes. For me at that time, Cerberus was very challenging. Ron watched me climb for 4 hours until I got to the belay. He got a little fiesty, and probably rightly so when I reached for the hammer to hit a nut that didnt want to set right. Needless to say we bailed. I realized 4 hours per pitch would have taken us forever and I needed to refine my aid skills on my home Granite prior to taking it to the Navaho. Ron was alright with all of this and my friend Chris P ended up getting his number. At that time I wasnt qualified (and maybe still not) to determine the merits of constructive scarring. What was obvious, was that the route had required a lot of work to complete and it seemed like Ron was eager to share his work with other climbers. In those days there just were very few climbers going to Zion.
Chris and I went back in about 1985 and completed the route. I was happy to spend 30 minutes on a pitch that had taken me 4 hours before. I am sure that the route is different now than it was then. Awesome route Ron! Back then I tossed my bag off of every Zion wall I did (not always with success). Before everyone getting on me about being hazardous let me remind you that there just were not any other climbers in Zion.
I think it was only a couple years after that when Chris and I climbed with Ron in Snow Canyon. I can only say that I was deeply disturbed about some of the stuff that was going on there. There was a beautiful face that had been drilled. I guessed that it would have went at 5.11. In an attempt to fix these holes, some obviously inexperienced kids had put what looked like plaster in the holes. Not a pretty sight against the desert varnish.
If the drilling wasn’t disturbing enough, riding with Ron in his Bronco filled with assault weapons was a little strange. I have to hand it to you Ron, you were and apparently still are original (take that as a compliment). In a world filled with people trying to do the right thing Ron was doing his own thing (ie: constructive scarring). I guess that is how you can either alienate people or expand the boundaries or sometimes both.
In 1984 Chris, Jim and I went to do Space Shot. It went well and we did place a few pitons. Some were placed because for young climbers who learned according to Royal Robbins Rockcraft, it seemed downright difficult to find a place where one could practice the art of piton craft. Not only that, there were definitely places where I wanted them. It wasn’t another several years before that climb was done clean. I think that was the fourth ascent, (anyway that is what I read in the climbing mags) of the route. I was at the bivvy ledge and there was an offending rock in the way, about as big as I could pick up. Not being the brightest guy around I tossed it off. It was kind of dark at that point and right after I tossed it a car came around the corner. I was like oh shit, now I have done it. The car stopped and searchlights came on. Oh great, a rangers car, even better. I realized that if that rock had hit the road I could have killed someone. The searchlight scanned the wall and after a while it took off. The next morning there was no sign of rocks on the road and no rangers, so I thought I was probably safe in terms of getting in trouble with Mr. Ranger.
In 1985 Guy Toombes and I tried the Lowe Route on the N. Face of Angels Landing. The info I had gave a rating of 5.7 A2. We were climbing it too slowly and bailed. I think Conrad climbed it twice before Guy and I made it back the following year. It took us three days on what I think was the 5th ascent. Needless to say when I met Jeff at a slideshow I asked him about the sandbag rating and he laughed and said it was a big pile of sand anyway. Guy thought the route was harder then the Nose. For me, it still remains a great adventure on a fairly untouched route. I can’t believe Jeff did the first ascent of the route as a teenager. Very impressive.
Climbing in Zion’s in the 80’s was an adventure. In all the times I climbed there I never saw another party on a wall. The only time I ran into other climbers was when Conrad and Drew did the FA of Electra and brought Sport Climbing to Zion. Those new fresh all American images of Conrad in the mags and advertisements are way different than the ghetto blasting, smoking sport climber I had fun with those couple days in Zion’s. I can’t imagine a better place to learn to wall climb, more user friendly, yes, but certainly not more beautiful and wild than those days were. Many of you who have posted here were responsible for the rich history and it would appear that some of it isn’t the cleanest laundry. But I also think it is fair to say that all of us that climbed there had more in common than we had differences. When we are dead and gone the walls of Zion will still be baking in the sun jutting into the sky and all of this spray won’t matter much. Maybe then some climbing historian will sift through various sources and put history down and we wont even be there call bullshit. I hope future generations will continue to find their own adventures on that rock.
Gary
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golsen
Mar 1, 2005, 11:13 AM
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In reply to: 5.11 granite slab climbers storm Zion It was a hot spring day in Zion. Les Ellison was on the sharp end, carefully nailing his way up a thin blade crack. It was 1980, and this was to be the first ascent of Magic Carpet Ride – IV 5.9 A3+, a steep route up-canyon from Touchstone. Suddenly, PING! PING! Whoosh. Clank! He had just taken a short plunge. As Les gathered his wits, wiping the sweat off of his forehead, he heard shrieks of laughter drift up from below. It was Dangle, floating down the Virgin River in his rubber raft. He was naked, shouting up all kinds of taunts to Les up baking on the wall…he was splashing in the cool water, generally giving his friend a hard time. At the time, Les and I were working on a guidebook to Little Cottonwood Canyon, in Utah. Most of the quality granite climbing was slab stuff. Several years later, two of our friends who had climbed a lot of hard granite face and slab routes announced to me one day that they were going to Zion to climb Cerberus (now called Touchstone). Knowing these guys quite well, I was taken back. “You haven’t done any aid have you?” They replied, ”No, but it’s supposed to be easy aid.” Hmm, my mind reeled. Here I had done LOTS of pitches of aid on short crags for practice, paid my dues…before attempting my first wall, and these guys were just going to run up Cerberus! Somehow, I happened to be in Zion at the same time these friends of mine were going to storm Zion. It was now morning and I was all beat to hell after a typical wall thrashing. We were enjoying a post-climb relaxation day. We were curious to see our friends on Cerberus. In fact, you rarely saw another climber on a wall in those days. When you did, they were usually quite worthy…most had spent time on the big stone. Dangle, for example, had done the second solo ascent of the Shield. Tourists weren’t familiar with climbers like they now are, and likely thought, “What are these poor wretches doing here??” As Warren Harding said, “They thought we were poorly dressed fisherman”. Stopping by, we noticed they were about 20 feet up the first pitch. They weren’t moving. After a while, we left to take a short hike and scope new routes. “Wow this place has lots of cracks!” Four hours later these climbers were only a little higher. The other was now leading. Dangle was present with his patented bull horn, shouting up instructions: “You need to place the nut BEFORE you clip your aider to it!... Use a #4 stopper there…You need to step higher…it’s only A1.” Ignoring Dangle, contemplating the exposure, I heard one of them say, “This nut just sank an inch! Whoa! Oh no, the one below me just fell out! WATCH ME!” Near the end of the day, they finally made it to the top of the first pitch. Dangle was still there…"DO YOU NEED A RESCUE? DO YOU KNOW HOW TO GET DOWN??” Being safely on the ground, I was enjoying the harassment. The next day, with their tails between their legs, they abandoned the climb. Although thoroughly schooled, my friends would later go on to climb big walls…though granite only.
Damn Brian! I would not have signed on here with my real name had I read this before hand! Nor would I have left my account. But I am pretty good at laughing at myself so....yes that was me. much better than my story I may add.
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dmckj
Mar 1, 2005, 3:33 PM
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(personally, I think writing about one's first ascents is a form of great immodesty -- attribute that to my New England background -- but as folks keep clamoring for 'stories', what the heck)
First, a little philosophy.....
Coming from the Valley scene of the mid-late 70's I arrived in Zion as pretty much a convert to doing things in 'good style'. I can recall sitting in Yosemite Lodge during bad weather and hearing Andy Embick ranting about what bad form it was to fix lines on El Cap. So Steve Chardon and I subsequently did the Shield, hauling from the ground up all the way. That was just for the immature desire to say 'so there!, I did it your way'. I recall hauling the Free Blast was a real pain. I remember sleeping on Black Ledge (or whatever) and waking up in the middle of the night to feel a mouse chewing on my 'original' Chouinard pile jacket. I thought it was a dream until I swung my hand by my head and connected with a furry body. He must have gone the full distance down the cliff, and I had a permanent quarter-sized hole in my pile, a fond memory of a climb.
Anyway, arriving to Zion these stylistic considerations just didn't make sense. On Cerberus we fixed two pitches and then 'went for it'. On Moonlight, Josh and I fixed the first 3 pitches (these are 'old' pitches folks) with two ropes, then Josh opted out of climbing with Ron and Ron finished the route with me.
Keep in mind, I arrived into Zion with maybe two sets of Friends (1-3), no half sizes (these bought from Ray himself), and a total aversion to nailing unless it was knife blades or RURPS. On Ron's and my first climb together, Moonlight, I was TOTALLY freaked when he started NAILING the perfect cracks. I am positive I gave him verbal shit about it, saying something like...'Ron, what the hell are you doing up there?'. I am just as positive I made some remark like 'Use the Friends for god's sake!'. He didn't much care, but obviously wasn't used to having someone chew HIM out (it was always the obverse). Cleaning those pitches with plus-or-minus inch-sized perfect cracks with pins sticking out of them just made we want to cry.
With only two sets of Friends, and no half-sizes STILL (you see I thought it extravagant at the time to pay $15 a piece for a camming device) we did Spaceshot. I led most (all?) of the approach pitches and was the guy who lead off through what is the 'crux' of the climb. I recall putting in a few pins on this pitch but, as much as possible, did it all clean. I simply thought nailing was a form of admitting defeat except where absolutely required.
It was Ron's turn to lead one of the headwall pitches on Spaceshot. Out came the hammer and pins. I was APOPLECTIC, tried to contain myself, but finally yelled up "WHAT are you DOING?? USE THE FRIENDS!!" Unusual for Ron, the reply came down that he basically didn't know how to use them (fair enough), but SHIT what a crime to be nailing on cracks. I am fuzzy on what happened next, but I think I may have convinced Ron to cut his pitch short and let me lead the rest of the headwall. Simply put, we didn't have enough of the right gear (exluding pitons) to do long pitches. Two sets of Friends and no half-sizes, and I can recall long strethes where a #2 was just too small, and a #3 was just too big. No 2.5's. The technique I used to get up (that I first used on Shune's Buttress, a similar scenario) was to take ALL my cams with me all the time, and only pause at absolutely bomber nut/hex placements. Typcally there would be 20-50 feet between really good pieces. Technically 'A1', but with little of the appropriate gear and an unwillingness to place any pins it was realistically a lot harder and more dangerous than that. On Earth Orbit Ledge I am sure I lectured Ron long and hard about his 'obligation' to go out and buy cams. To his credit, he went out and bought a truckload immediately thereafter. Readers can verify this account in his old article (the Wheatberry article) on the first ascent. (I might add, from Ron's point of view it was incredible to him that I didn't have my exact pin sizes down to an art, which means I would always 'bracket' what I would send up to him on a tag line, earning me a verbal abuse barrage, to which I would respond 'stop complaining, you got what you needed!'.
Anyway, I digress. The point was stylistic 'concerns' which, being a New Hampshire inspired climber type, I didn't have much use for anyway. As noted the 'pure' style of a continuous push just didn't make much sense in Zion. The climbs were just short enough that a strong push after fixing ropes was a HELL of a lot more logical than hauling up bivy gear. (Not to mention the patented Layton Kor philosophy of rappeling to drink beer every night.) So for almost ALL of the mostly to completely free routes I tried to just 'go for it', with several notable exceptions.
That 'go for it' attitude we applied to my earliest ascents of Shune's, (Spaceshot we bivied and Ron wouldn't put out....something about me not respecting him in the morning if he did), Golden Years, and, leading into a short story,
Lost in Transit...
coming up...
But first, to close out the thought, the idea of 'going for it' has always appealed to me. It certainly makes for an exciting day when you have 5-7 new pitches to finish, a descent to figure out, and a few blank 'problematic' spots on your route. Sometime it goes easier than you think, sometime harder, but it is always interesting. The worst time I got 'caught' going for it was with Mark Austin on the 'almost' complete first ascent of the Vigil on The Watchman. A pitch I had counted on as 'easy' turned into hard free with a hard aid finish. We never recovered from that lost time and ended up in the dark two pitches from the top. But we had a gas drilling and rappelling in the dark, arriving by about 2 a.m. back to Springdale. When Conrad joined me for the complete ascent we bivied on 'Violation Ledge', a highly recommended place to hang and enjoy incredible views. During this ascent I found the free variation to the problematic aid pitch (see photo page 40 Climbing No. 227 Feb 2004) that is unprotected but pretty easy. I had no pro up the face and freaked out enough to finally put in a bolt which turned out to be only ONE move from a hidden protection crack -- oh well. It is good we bivied because it gave us a chance to figure out and put up the last two pitches on the route, both of which are superb.
If you want a fun free climbing adventure and break out of the 'upper Zion Canyon' box mentality, go do The Vigil.
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dmckj
Mar 1, 2005, 5:30 PM
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In reply to: From my perspective in the early 80's Zion was a backwater place, perfect to go climb a wall that not many people had climbed. Don’t get me wrong, backwater is good
Yes....that stirs up images of Ron and I wading through dark and fetid waters, sort of like creatures from the Black Lagoon.
I like the imagery.
A place you would never allow your daughters or sisters to stray at night, alone, to the Bit and Spur....nevertheless......
reminds me of yet another story..
let's call it Tunnel of Love
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rocknroll
Mar 1, 2005, 6:59 PM
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Anybody ever climb at Colorado City? I drove in there to check out the crags and things got wierd quick. (For those of you who don't know, Colorado City is where the outcast polygamists of the Mormon religion live). First thing you notice is the houses. Huge! Get another wife and kid, add another wing. Then I saw the women. Total Stepford wives in there old fashion country dresses. I stopped a fellow and asked him how to get to the rocks. He looked at me quizzically and kept looking over towards a ball field. "That rock is loose and dangerous...Ain't no rock climbing here." I drove by the ball field and saw about seventy people in two paralell lines, men on one side women on the other. They were doing some sort of dance ritual.
Finally I found the crags. Biggest ones are about 900 feet but most are about 400-600' . As I drove out, there was a cop blocking the road. I had been driving all day and was pretty wired on illicit substances. I decided to pull off the road and let him pass. But he didn't move. He got out of his car and came over to me.
"I heard you was snooping around theball fields. We don't take kindly to strangers snooping around our town.'
I was done for. I had to think of something quick. "Hey!,' I said enthusiastically, "You would know!"
He cocked his head and waited for me to go on.
"I'm a rock climber and climbed a bunch in Zion. You ever do Search and Rescue training here?"
"Why, yes son, I have!" A big smile spread across his face and he puffed out his chest and adjusted his pants. "I been on that one, that one and that one."
We must have been jawin' for over two hours as he told me tale after tale of his daring feats in the canyon. Usual stuff, rescuing kids on rocks and OHV accidents. I pretty much got the go ahead to climb there from Officer Cooke. "How about camping? Can we camp in the Canyon?"
"You're gonna have to ask the Deacon about that one. I don't have authority to say yay or nay."
Truth is he doesn't have the jurisdiction. Colrado City is in Arizona and the crags are just over the border in Utah.
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dmckj
Mar 1, 2005, 7:05 PM
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So there we were....Steve and I....in the earliest 80's....without enough pitons to do what would become Wages of Sin on the Forbidden Wall, but maybe, just maybe enough pins to do the new line we had scoped on South Twin Brother.
The buttress is beautiful. If it lay alongside the road and was as easily viewed as the upper canyon the route would have been climbed a hundred times by now. But it isn't..... You really can't much see it as you drive up the canyon unless you really crane your neck.
In a climbing void, the route looked very appealing to me.....a scaled down version of the Shield.....free-climbing to start.....steep aid climbing to finish.
We went up several 'normal' approach pitches to a big ledge and a pushing off point, if you will. The goal was a big fat thumb-like slab that makes up a buttress against the face. From the top of this you push up through thin nailing cracks and overhangs to the final headwall face crack.
Steve got the lead off of the ledge, a pitch that has now famously turned back a bunch of people. Amusingly, I've had several folks tell me about 'famous' Valley climbers who tried, but couldn't do, this pitch. Strikes me as a bit odd, since we didn't think too much of it at the time. I put in a single bolt as far up and left as I could and Steve then led, free-climbing, out left across the exposed face. He stopped to place a #1 Tri-cam in a mini pocket a ways out, this to be his last piece. Free climbing 'at my very limit' I recall him saying, he worked his way out and just BARELY got his hand on the edge of a handrail flake, with just enough postive slope to hang on, but not quite enough to fully commit to. I vividly recall him saying 'watch me good and keep me on just a tad of tension'. So, with this last move, about 90% free with a tad of tension, he finally committed to pulling up. The rest of the pitch went beautifully all free. Since then, several folks who know the famouls folks who have subsequently backed off have wondered about the 'secret' of how we did it, or whether it was fully aided with now invisible holds. Sorry folks....it went free except the tension on the last move. Steve, when pressed, did some amazing climbing. I've got the photos of him leading that pitch. Perhaps the most revealing thing about the folks who ask about 'how' we did is the presumption that a pair of 'unknown' climbers such as ourselves couldn't climb 'better' than a bunch of famous guys.
Anyway....the pitch afterwards is beyond description. A 160 foot perfect handcrack leading all the way to the ledge at the top of the flake. Among the very best single pitches in the park this one, in my humble opinion. We fixed to this point at the top of the buttress. I recall having a long discussion amongst ourselves to decide if we should haul gear and bivy up there, or simply go for it.
We decided to go for it.
The next morning broke EARLY and we jugged most of the way up to the ledge before real daylight. The pitch off the buttress was steep and thin and, unluckily for Steve, quite loose in places. We suggested subsequent parties NOT climb that lead off pitch but cleaner one to the left. Lucky me, I got the next headwall pitch. A THIN nailing crack through a double overhang onto an overhanging knifeblade crack up the headwall. I recall trying to figure out how to get through the overhangs. I pounded a baby angle vertically into nothing of a crack and stood on it. The first few times it ripped immediately, but I was anticipating this. The next time it seemed, somehow, to hold....so I just went for it. A series of tied-off knifeblades, maybe a RURP, and a lost arrow or two later I was full committed to the overhanging headwall. No bolts. I was a bit freaked, because the crack wasn't much. After getting a respectable committed distance up onto the heart of this thing I desperately sought out a natural belay. No such luck. I 'resorted' to placing a single bolt for the belay anchor and two more or less pretty good pieces in the crack. That was it.
Steve was both as psyched and intimidated as I. We had NO bivy gear, no really warm clothes (hats), no real food or water, and being late in the fall we were really running out of time because of the full-on aid. From the fully hanging belay (Shield style) I encouraged Steve to get his ass up as fast and safely as possible. It was one more full pitch to the exit face pitch above. Slowly and steadily, with no bolts, I recall him moving upwards on micro-nuts, pins, etc. It was tedious and scary for him. He got within several moves of the final roof and was inching along. I was psyched because be was SURELY going to make it and we were going to get off just in time for darkness.
Then.....it happened. A soundless releasing off weight and Steve came flying off zipping everything below him. My eyes just about popped out of my head. Steve took a 40 foot screamer.....not only zippering out all of his prior work....but erasing our precious time to get off. He came to a stop and looked up and said 'WHAT IS HOLDING ME?' He couldn't believe he didn't fall to the belay. Turns out this 6 foot 4 inch 190 pound guy had zippered and was caught on a #1 brass nut TURNED SIDEWAYS in a shallow seam!!!!!!!!!!! He was speechless, and I had nothing to add.
I was now convinced we were going to bivy on the overhanging face in the dark with no gear. Had never done THAT before and wasn't looking forward to it. I said something to the effect that he had better climb inspired, and he did. He whizzed back up through the difficult part, slammed in a bolt to avoid the zipper fiasco and made it up through the final overhang. By the time I got to lead the exit pitch is was so dark I could hardly see the holds on the rock face. I was DESPERATE to get off. But no place to belay, no ledges, no friendly climbing, just impending darkness and scary run-out 5.8 face climbing. Through some immemorable primeival drive I found a way up and off the route. I COULD NOT BELIEVE IT. We were looking at a hanging gearless bivy and we had JUST squeaked off of the route.
We had one headlamp with weak batteries, but we were ECSTATIC to be off the headwall and onto the very steep and treacherous descent. Amazingly, however, we rapped multiple sets of bushes down steep slabs and soon found ourselves above the vertical final gulley raps. One or two of these later and, still unbelievable to me, we were STANDING on a WALKOFF slope down to the road. I could not and still do not believe that we got away with that one.
An hour later we were drinking multiple pitchers in the Bit.
Next.....Wages of Sin
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dangle
Mar 1, 2005, 7:07 PM
Post #443 of 667
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Well, I was wondering if the Terrier ran off, but the old dog has picked up BS's technique of leaving out key details like;
Why did I have to buy a rollei B35 a month after Moonlight?
How many .75 friends did we have?
How many hammer blows did I use to place pins?
On Spaceshot how far had I run it out backcleaning the friends before using the rest of the rack?
Who did Zion's first HAMMERLESS wall 7 months later?
Does the Terrier still feel that it is ethical to alter an aid route with every ascent and devil take the hindmost?
And why wouldn't he know the sizes of the tools he knows so well?
Gary, nice to hear from you. Watch those rap jams.
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dmckj
Mar 2, 2005, 12:09 AM
Post #444 of 667
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In reply to: Who did Zion's first HAMMERLESS wall 7 months later?
Sorry....but let's be careful with our terminology.
You may have done the first wall hammerless, but the route you put up did not get put up without a hammer. So, it is a misnomer to call it a hammerless route, but rather a route that has been 'made' (e.g. created) to go hammerless. Huge difference, that.
To my knowledge, the first long route to be put up with ZERO bolts, ZERO pitons, ZERO drilling, without a hammer being used was the route 'Freezer Burn' that I put up in Pine Creek. Unfortunately, Mugs Stumps retrobolted this very route (without my permission I might add) to free the only 20 feet of aid on the climb. That was a truly 'hammerless' route.
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dmckj
Mar 2, 2005, 12:10 AM
Post #445 of 667
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Oh yeah.....If someone knows of another long Zion route that went up without a hammer being used in any manner, I will stand corrected.
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bsmoot
Mar 2, 2005, 1:55 AM
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pm to Gary - Moderator please delete.
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dmckj
Mar 2, 2005, 2:22 AM
Post #447 of 667
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In reply to: Why did I have to buy a rollei B35 a month after Moonlight? How many .75 friends did we have? How many hammer blows did I use to place pins? On Spaceshot how far had I run it out backcleaning the friends before using the rest of the rack? Who did Zion's first HAMMERLESS wall 7 months later? Does the Terrier still feel that it is ethical to alter an aid route with every ascent and devil take the hindmost? And why wouldn't he know the sizes of the tools he knows so well?
You are such a smart guy Dangle that I cannot truly believe you wish to open THESE Pandora's boxes to a full and open discussion?
I will pass on commentary unless you really want it (I know, I know...how can he resist?).
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dangle
Mar 2, 2005, 2:22 AM
Post #448 of 667
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So now you claim to have put up Zion's first hammerless wall.
Bullshit.
First I never said that I put up a wall, but I did do one hammerless.
That means WITHOUT EVEN CARRYING ONE. Thats where your "huge difference" is. I don't think you put up Free or Burn without CARRYING a hammer. It just turned out not to require them. Do you know of any major new Zion route attempted without CARRYING a hammer?
How about answering that along with the other five questions?
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golsen
Mar 2, 2005, 3:14 AM
Post #449 of 667
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Alas,
Finally read the whole thing.
Glad I climbed in remote places so there arent more "5.11 Slab Climber stories"....One of the advantages to thrashing by yourself and a blood sworn partner. I do think Brian got that story correct except for the part about me going back.
The stories are amazing....priceless....Dave, thanks for the Lost in Transit story....A climb I have dreamed of but not gotten off my ass to attempt. I wish I would have met you back then. I almost quit school to be a climbing bum....shoulda woulda coulda....
Ron, how are you doing? Some of the past threads show that there was a lack of a climbing community. While I applaud your climbing efforts I also must say that I must have been a stubborn and/or stupid guy to come back to Zion after you watched every painfully slow placement I made on the first pitch of Cerberus. It is only my opinion, but maybe most climbers would have given up after that and written the place off? Do you think your "welcoming" new Zion wannabe climbers may have had any reason for the lack of a climbing community? Damn, I think I found another reason to thank you! Maybe you don't see it this way, but some of your actions were a bit , uhhh, shall we say, bizarre?
Nobody should take this as a personnel attack, I am sure it is only a case of personalities not getting along with eachother. On the positive side, I did climb with Ron in Snow Canyon one day. I even have a picture of you if I can have your persmission to post it?
Brian Smoot, I laughed at your story. It is always good to hear anothers perspective on this and I probably did appear to be kind of bold and brash, but what better way to learn than to go for it! By the way, PM me with your address. I have something of yours (my very very bad!) I have felt guilty about and need to return it.
Guys, keep the stories coming. They are priceless....A lot better than that edited crap you get in the mags. Since we can't be sitting around a campfire together (someone might kill someone) this is about as good a place as any. Before I read this I thought this internet stuff was for people that should be out climbing or have something better to do (?)....
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chairmanmeow
Mar 2, 2005, 4:37 AM
Post #450 of 667
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Registered: Mar 24, 2004
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In reply to: Before I read this I thought this internet stuff was for people that should be out climbing or have something better to do...
You were right. :P
In reply to: Since we can't be sitting around a campfire together (someone might kill someone) this is about as good a place as any.
Right again. :tinfoilhat:
In reply to: ...some of your actions were a bit , uhhh, shall we say, bizarre?
I get the impression there's a story or two behind this statement. The forum demands stories! :D
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