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obe


Apr 17, 2005, 9:22 PM
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Re: How to lose weight to improve your climbing [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Today, I was asked the following in a private message:

In reply to:
I am in search of a proper diet to improve my strength to weight ratio for climbing. Basically, I need to lose weight without losing the energy needed to climb 3 times a week. So, I need to eat more complex carbs and less fat, right (please correct if I am wrong)? Please help in naming some good foods to eat that would fit my needs.

Before I answer the question, a little about my background: I am a graduate-trained nutritional epidemiologist. What that means is that I am trained in the design, analysis, and interpretation of nutritional research studies with human subjects. I've read a good deal of the research on weight loss and am currently working on a paper on the effects of certain diets on body weight for eventual publication. I am also a climber, who, when he decided 4 years ago to get serious about sport climbing, lost 20 lbs. Now, to the question of losing weight without losing strength.

The bottom line for losing weight is that you must create a caloric deficit. That means you must consume fewer calories than you burn. You can do this in two ways: consume fewer calories in your diet or increase the amount of exercise you do. The most effective way is to do both simultaneously.

How to reduce your caloric intake.

In principle you could reduce your total caloric intake in one of two ways: either by eating the same foods you currently do and reducing portion sizes or by reducing intake of certain macronutrients (ie, fat, carbohydrate, or protein). However, one of the challenges of dieting is that when your body senses that it is receiving fewer calories than it is burning, it responds by breaking down both body fat and muscle. For an athlete (and if you are rock climber, you should start thinking of yourself as an athlete), this is disastrous because when you diet you can potentially lose strength. Since we want to increase our strength-to-weight ratio, we want to maintain our muscle mass and lose weight in the form of body fat. The way to accomplish this through diet is to maintain carbohydrate intake, increase protein intake, and reduce fat intake enough to produce a caloric deficit.

We want to increase protein intake because the additional protein offsets the body’s increased rate of muscle breakdown while dieting. The reason it is important to maintain high carbohydrate intake is that the higher the carbohydrate intake, the less muscle tissue is broken down for energy (that is, dietary carbohydrate is muscle sparing). Dietary fat, on the other hand, is not muscle sparing; consequently, your entire reduction in calorie intake should come from reducing your intake of fats.

Let’s assume you are doing aerobic exercise for a half-hour 3 days a week and climbing indoors or out 3 sessions per week (If you are not getting at least this much exercise, you should start. You will find it much easier to lose weight by a combination of diet and exercise than by just dieting). The average female at this level of exercise will probably require about 2000 calories/day to maintain her body weight, while the average male will require about 2500 calories. You should try to consume about 500 to 750 calories per day less than you burn. This should result in losing 1 – 1˝ pounds per week. This may seem too slow to some; however, more drastic diets do not work – they are virtually impossible to maintain.

OK, so now you have an idea about how many total calories to eat each day. The next question is how should these calories be distributed among protein, carbohydrate, and fat. My recommendations are the following: 25 – 30% of the total calories in your diet should come from protein, 10 - 20% from fat, and the remainder from carbohydrate. This is a low-fat diet that is relatively high in both protein and carbohydrate, as required to promote retention of muscle tissue. In order to operationalize this diet, you need to become savvy at reading nutritional labels and know that protein and carbohydrate contain 4 calories per gram and that fat contains 9 calories per gram (for those who need to know, it’s 7 calories per gram for alcohol).

So, what to eat.

The challenge in this diet is keeping the protein intake high and the fat intake low. Therefore, you need to look for foods that are very low in fat and high in protein. Ideal foods are the following: beans, white-meat poultry, low-fat fishes (eg, halibut), canned tuna, and soy-based non-fat mock meats (hint: think Trader Joes). You can eat essentially unlimited vegetables, since they are very low in calories. Fruits are essentially all carbohydrate and water and low in total calories, and can (and should) be eaten in moderation. Any grain products you eat should be whole grain, since they are higher in protein, fiber, and micronutrients than their processed counterparts.

Try not to add fat to anything. Throw away your mayonnaise, margarine, butter, and cooking oils. Pure oils such as these contain 120 calories per tablespoon. It is all too easy to turn a healthy, low-calorie salad into an abomination by adding excessive dressing. Instead of mayonnaise on sandwiches, substitute mustard (which is virtually calorie free), or just go without.

Keep a diary of everything you eat. Specifically note the total calories you consume and the total grams of protein in each meal. If, at the end of the day, you didn’t consume enough protein, have a blended shake made from a protein supplement and a piece of fruit in the evening. Buy the cheap soy-protein powder. Let the muscle heads waste their money on designer whey peptides.

I realize that this diet is more quantitative than some people would like. However, in my judgment, counting calories and protein grams is the only way to ensure adequate protein intake while maintaining a low-calorie diet. This is critical for athletes.

Good luck.

-Jay


I CAN TELL THAT THIS TOOK A LOT OF TIME TO TYPE. THANKYOU FOR SHARING THIS. IT HAS TAUGHT ME A LOT! :D :D :D


kngkong


Apr 21, 2005, 6:53 AM
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When someone is in caloric deficit and beginning to burn muscle. Does anyone know whether the muscle burned is spread throughout the body, the main muscles at work at that time, or muscles in a hypertrophic state?


jt512


Apr 21, 2005, 5:14 PM
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When someone is in caloric deficit and beginning to burn muscle. Does anyone know whether the muscle burned is spread throughout the body, the main muscles at work at that time, or muscles in a hypertrophic state?

Muscle breakdown will tend to occur throughout the body. One aim of this diet is to provide sufficient protein so that the muscles being exercised (the climbing muscles, for instance) are rebuilt in response to the stimulus of that exercise (climbing), so that net loss of muscle mass will only occur in the muscles not being exercised. If, while on a diet like this, you want to maintain or increase muscle mass throughout the body, you have to exercise accordingly; namely, you will have to do some suppplemental training, such as weight training, of the non-climbing muscles.

At least one controlled study has shown that muscle mass can actually be increased by the combination of weight training and a diet having the macronutrient profile I have recommended. For a climber, climbing itself should be sufficient to maintain the climbing muscles themselves.

-Jay


kngkong


Apr 21, 2005, 9:01 PM
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Re: How to lose weight to improve your climbing [In reply to]
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Makes sense

Thanks Jay


crazyakclimber


Apr 22, 2005, 9:28 PM
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all of em!


lucas_timmer


Apr 27, 2005, 6:24 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Interesting. My physician suggested that I follow a diet where I get 50% of my calories from fat (nuts, flaxseed oil etc), 30% protein and 20% carb. Not only have I lost excess poundage (not too much, I am 5'3" and weigh 108 pounds), I have put on lots of muscle and I am never ever hungry. The fat in my diet makes me feel full all the time; I often have to remind myself to eat. Typical day includes lots and lots of nuts (any kind) with lots and lots of veggies. (I am a vegan). No bread, no pasta, no rice etc. Do I occasionally "slip"? Sure I do, just last night I made chocolate chip cookies and indulged. Overall, I feel much better than when I followed a high carb, low fat diet. I guess everyone is different and you have to find what works for you.

A diet so low in carbs is probably not the best choice for losing weight while attempting to maximize athletic performance. I would expect that most athletes' performance would decline with so little carbohydrate in the diet.

-Jay
He's probaply on to the Atkins diet, a diet where you have to eat a lot of fat and no carbs at all.That certainly isn't recommended for a sportsdiet.


danegerous


May 21, 2005, 9:11 PM
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Re: How to lose weight to improve your climbing [In reply to]
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i just had a guy tell me he lost 60 lbs in 14 weeks on the optifast diet...he hasnt eaten food in 14 weeks! only shakes, 5 times a day. wow, it works, but thats no way to live...ill stick to working out and eating right.

just curious though, (and i apologize for not reading all 17 pages to see if it was asked), is there any truth to the tale that working out hinders climbing? if it was already mentioned, just point me to the link. thanks


zoratao


May 21, 2005, 9:47 PM
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Re: How to lose weight to improve your climbing [In reply to]
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Sorry didn't read all 17 pages so I might have missed some. Tuna steaks rock. I follow a very strict diet of only eating things that I know I am getting optimal nutrition from. Whole grains poutlry, and what not I throw some red meat in once in a while and I have a great time exercising and climbing. I think the key is to find exercises and physical exertions you think are fun! That is it, its better for your soul anyway. If you like bike riding do that. Just don't get into some soul denying gym cardio routine, unless that isn't soul denying for you.


mackattack


Jun 2, 2005, 6:57 PM
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Re: How to lose weight to improve your climbing [In reply to]
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i think that the main reason people dont loose weight is when they work out the dont push themselves

Example your on a jog and decide that im a little sweaty or this is tiring so you walk home

to loose weight its got to be soemthing your determined to do and it usually its only going to come with sacrifice wether its less food more exercise or a combination of both


flowerpowerlover


Jun 9, 2005, 1:40 AM
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Re: How to lose weight to improve your climbing [In reply to]
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but what if i want to lose muscle...? i recently gained some leg muscle from mtn biking and want to get rid of it.

great info!!!


jt512


Jun 9, 2005, 1:42 AM
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In reply to:
i recently gained some leg muscle from mtn biking and want to get rid of it.

Stop mountain biking.

-Jay


clintoris


Jun 9, 2005, 2:16 AM
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sadly enough I am sitting here reading this with a bag of tortilla chips right next to me. I did just get off a 10.5 hour day working carpentry so i'm hungry. Now i've got a steak marinating. Oh well, i'll limit my portions. I'll start this diet riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.....NOW though!


flowerpowerlover


Jun 9, 2005, 4:46 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
i recently gained some leg muscle from mtn biking and want to get rid of it.

Stop mountain biking.

-Jay

i was living in camp4 with no car, it was my way to get around...still interested in learning how to lose muscle...btw im not biking anymore :)


jt512


Jun 9, 2005, 5:07 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
i recently gained some leg muscle from mtn biking and want to get rid of it.

Stop mountain biking.

-Jay

i was living in camp4 with no car, it was my way to get around...still interested in learning how to lose muscle...btw im not biking anymore :)

I was serious. If you stop exercising the muscles in question, you will lose mass in those muscles. The body constantly breaks down muscle protein and burns if for energy. If you're not stimulating the rebuilding of those muscles by mountain biking or similar exercise, then you will have a net loss of mass in those muscles over time (for evidence of this, just look at the legs of your average wimpy sport climber). Since your body is obtaining energy from the net breakdown of leg muscle, you must reduce calories in your diet by a small amount to avoid a concomitant increase in body fat. If you want to speed up the loss of muscle mass from your legs, you can reduce caloric intake further, using the diet I outline in my opening post. As I explain there, dieting causes a loss of both muscle mass and body fat. The diet I outlined is designed to minimize the loss of muscle mass (which is important for a climber), but muscle mass will only be maintained (or increased) in muscles being exercised. So, if you're climbing hard sport routes, using a lot of upper body strength, and not mountain biking or doing hard approaches, you should be able to maintain or increase muscle mass in your upper body and simultaneously lose it in your legs.

-Jay


flowerpowerlover


Jun 9, 2005, 11:35 PM
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jay,

thanks for the reply...

good advice! :)


choueiri


Jun 24, 2005, 5:33 PM
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Has anyone tried using supplements to lose weight, like creatine or some others. I have heard a lot of creatine but have never tried it. I have kind of reached a sticking point in my climbing, I just havent been improving as much and I think its because I havent been building enough muscle.

Tony


cruxmonger


Jun 24, 2005, 6:27 PM
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Binge and purge, baby!!!!!! It seems to work for boulderers.......


jt512


Jun 24, 2005, 10:49 PM
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In reply to:
Has anyone tried using supplements to lose weight, like creatine or some others. I have heard a lot of creatine but have never tried it.

Creatine to lose weight? Creatine causes weight gain.

-Jay


choueiri


Jun 25, 2005, 8:51 PM
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I guess I was wrong than... I thought it increased lean muscle but I guess if you are increasing muscle than you are gaining weight. I am basically trying to increase muscle and engery. I have been losing weight but havent been gaining muscle in return. I guess climbers have to have that balance between muscle and weight... which I dont have yet, so thats why I was thinking of trying creatine.

Tony


jt512


Jun 26, 2005, 1:34 AM
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I have been losing weight but havent been gaining muscle in return.

That's usually the case, and the whole reason that I started this thread. Read my first post.

-Jay


sidepull


Jun 27, 2005, 5:01 PM
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Jay - Does Horst's plan fit the bill?
"Diet is a vital area overlooked by many climbers--it plays a big role in endurance, concentration, body composition, and recovery ability. I've written a full chapter on the subject in my latest book, Training for Climbing. Check it out sometime. Meanwhile, here's a sample idea to give you a sense of direction.

Breakfast - whole grain cereal or oatmeal, piece of fruit, daily vitamin, and a whey protein shake mixed in skim milk. Good coffee. :-)

Lunch - Salad and bagel, or low glycemic index energy bar (such as Balance bar), piece of fruit or yogurt, whole grain bakery item, whey protein drink or glass of skim milk.

Dinner - serving of lean meat (chicken, fish, lean red), pasta dish, salad or veggies.

Bedtime - Whey Protein drink in skim milk.

Drink lots of water throughout the day and eat extra energy bars and fruit if out climbing. It's a fairly narrow diet, void of fast foods, fried foods, etc. Yes, an "open eating" day is good every now and then as a reward! But we strive to keep fat moderately low, and protein and carbo intake fairly high. (Thus, I don't advise fad diets like the "Zone" for serious athletes)."

Taken from: http://www.nicros.com/New%20Training%20Center/QandA15.shtml


jt512


Jun 28, 2005, 5:50 PM
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Jay - Does Horst's plan fit the bill?

Breakfast - whole grain cereal or oatmeal, piece of fruit, daily vitamin, and a whey protein shake mixed in skim milk. Good coffee. :-)

Lunch - Salad and bagel, or low glycemic index energy bar (such as Balance bar), piece of fruit or yogurt, whole grain bakery item, whey protein drink or glass of skim milk.

Dinner - serving of lean meat (chicken, fish, lean red), pasta dish, salad or veggies.

Bedtime - Whey Protein drink in skim milk.

Drink lots of water throughout the day and eat extra energy bars and fruit if out climbing. It's a fairly narrow diet, void of fast foods, fried foods, etc. Yes, an "open eating" day is good every now and then as a reward! But we strive to keep fat moderately low, and protein and carbo intake fairly high. (Thus, I don't advise fad diets like the "Zone" for serious athletes)."

That's not bad. The overall emphasis on moderately low fat, and reasonably high protein and carb intake is essentially in accord with my recommendations. I disagree with a few specifics. For instance, it doesn't make sense to recommend a bagel and a low-glycemic index bar as alternatives to each other, since bagels have a high glycemic index. As a rule, low-glycemic index carbohydrates are superior to high-glycemic carbohydrates. The exception is when you want the sugar to be absorbed quickly, such as immediately following intense exercise, to promote muscle recovery. Also, I really can't recommend red meat, due to its association with colon cancer, though lean is better than fatty.

-Jay


Partner signmanzdk


Aug 18, 2005, 8:55 PM
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Re: How to lose weight to improve your climbing [In reply to]
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I have a solution for the whole fruit thing. Buy a dehydrator like i did and then the fruit won't fill you up as much, and you can still eat healthy.


hangerlessbolt


Aug 18, 2005, 9:12 PM
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Lose weight to improve climbing?

Pshaw!

Don't bring yourself down to the climb...bring the climb down to you!

I figure that’s why the grading system was developed. So much so that I created a chart that corresponds to my weight as it relates to my trad leading ability.

Weight - Rate

220 – 5.5
210 – 5.6
200 – 5.7
190 – 5.8
180 – 5.9
170 – 5.10a
165 – 5.10b


jt512


Aug 18, 2005, 9:39 PM
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I have a solution for the whole fruit thing. Buy a dehydrator like i did and then the fruit won't fill you up as much, and you can still eat healthy.

That makes no sense. For starters, fruit isn't filling. Secondly, the "problem" with excess fruit consumption is that it displaces protein in the diet. Deydrating your fruit so that you can eat more of it (in terms of calories) would just displace more protein.

-Jay

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