Thanks Jay, this will help a lot! BTW, why only canned tuna? Are tuna steaks not as good? The reason I ask is that I can't stand the smell of canned tuna, but love tuna steaks (when I can afford them).

Keep a diary of everything you eat. Specifically note the total calories you consume and the total grams of protein in each meal. If, at the end of the day, you didn’t consume enough protein, have a blended shake made from a protein supplement and a piece of fruit in the evening. Buy the cheap soy-protein powder. Let the muscle heads waste their money on designer whey peptides.

Interesting. My physician suggested that I follow a diet where I get 50% of my calories from fat (nuts, flaxseed oil etc), 30% protein and 20% carb. Not only have I lost excess poundage (not too much, I am 5'3" and weigh 108 pounds), I have put on lots of muscle and I am never ever hungry. The fat in my diet makes me feel full all the time; I often have to remind myself to eat. Typical day includes lots and lots of nuts (any kind) with lots and lots of veggies. (I am a vegan). No bread, no pasta, no rice etc. Do I occasionally "slip"? Sure I do, just last night I made chocolate chip cookies and indulged. Overall, I feel much better than when I followed a high carb, low fat diet. I guess everyone is different and you have to find what works for you.

Is this to say that we should ignore the biological value of the protein? I've seen Trader Joe's brand whey protein for what seems like a pretty good price. Is it better to focus on things like eggs and whey if it isn't too expensive, or does it really matter?

Wow, thanks Jay that helps me too. One question, maybe I read this wrong, but why eat fruit in moderation? Too many carbs? Thanks! :)

Fruit has very little protein, so if you consume a lot of fruit on this diet, you'll have trouble getting enough protein.

-Jay

...I wouldn't be too brutal on Atkins (low carb).... I've got a case study for you.

Female Climber - training in the gym twice a week and spending most weekends climbing. Bouldering v3's consistently, leading 10's on sport with ease, doing 11's clean on TR. Former college athlete. Doing cardio (atleast twice usually more) and opposing muscle group lifting twice a week. Absolutely unable to lose the weight she wanted to lose to improve her climbing and self-esteem . . . gets on Atkins and strictly follows induction for 2 weeks then continues on the "continued weightloss" program for another 4 to 6 weeks. In the first 2 weeks, while maintianing her fitness schedule discribed above, dramatically loses weight and gets incredibly toned . . . progress slows but continues for next 4 to 6 weeks. In this time the climber at issue not only redpointed her first 11, she redpointed 11d, onsighted 11a, and sent at least a dozen 11's...

Doe this mean that too much fruit would be bad? I tend to love my fruit but not big on vegtables. I can manage to increase my proteins at the same time but for me fruits are a way to keep my hands out of the cookies jar and out of the candy aisle.

I always thought less carbs was the answer since I was overweight but I realize it's more protein that I was lacking!

I am kind of confused about 'caloric deficit'. I read from a few sources about that: some say that the quality is important (e.g. low fat, high carb), some claim that quantity is all that matters (e.g. 1500 is 1500 - doesn't matter where they come from.

My question will be: if I am trying to lose fat (not just weight) - will maintaining a fixed calories intake be ok... or I need to consider fat-carb-protein ratio too?

[
And I have a case study for you ...
Female Climber. Dramatic loss of weight on Atkins over several months, though climbing performance deteriorates while on diet. 1 year after beginning Atkins her weight is greater than before beginning the diet.

So much for case studies. Numerous controlled research studies have shown that extreme diets do not work in the long run.

You can lose weight in the short-term on Atkins. The question is can you keep it off? I've yet to see anyone who has. Atkins is no different than any other extreme diet. Research has shown that nearly 100% of those who successfully lose weight on such diets gain all the weight back within two years.

The only way to lose weight permanently is by modest caloric restriction and increased physical activity followed by dietary vigilance after your target weight is reached.

-Jay

I think the Atkins diet is awesome for teaching people what food is good and bad...

I hear what your sayin', but in this case I think that the dramatic weight loss will maintain . . . the case study I outlined above was always capable of maintaining a particular weight, and believes that once she hits the weight and results she desires that she will be able to return to a balanced diet . . . balanced in the traditional sense of proper vitamins, minerals, carbs v. proteins etc, but also balanced in terms of caloric intake to expenditure . . . we shall see I guess.

The one thing I wanted to point out in my description was that there was, in this case, no loss of strength, power, or endurance...

#2
NYTM: Saturated fat doesn’t promote heart disease.

NA: Taubes stated that saturated fats will elevate both bad cholesterol (LDL) and good cholesterol (HDL) levels and cause “a virtual wash” in the body, which is absurd according to every expert Liebman could track down.

Also, studies on the Atkins Diet showed that LDL levels didn’t go up, which seems good until you consider that they should be dropping when weight is being shed. “The harm caused by saturated fats could be overcome by weight loss,” says Samuel Klein of Washington University’s School of Medicine. “But what happens once people stop losing weight and start trying to maintain the loss? Will their LDL climb? We don’t know.”

hey, I just read over this thread; interesting stuff. One thing I neglected to find in it, though, Jay (maybe I missed it). Is there any rule of thumb concerning how many grams of protein your average male climber should shoot for per day?

regarding exercise,
running 1 Hr at 12km/h for 78 kg is reported to burn 1000 cal/hr, assuming heartbeat of 80% max
if reading a book was ?? 300 cal/hr
how much weightloss can one assume for the 700 extra cal burned
(I guess some study were done on longdistance runners)

(whenever I think here is one gram of my lovehandles gone, I run easier ;-)

You can lose weight in the short-term on Atkins. The question is can you keep it off? I've yet to see anyone who has. Atkins is no different than any other extreme diet. Research has shown that nearly 100% of those who successfully lose weight on such diets gain all the weight back within two years.

-Jay

Yes, but did you stay on the low carb diet all that time? Or did you just do induction, then end?

I find that slow and steady is the best for long term weight loss.

As a previous poster said "canned tuna". This is one of the best foods for replacing a meal, low in fat and high in protein.

What always works for me is, low fat low card high protein meals, lotsa water, lotsa activity; i.e., mountain biking, running, swimming and climbing.

Eat most of your carbs in the morning. Stay away from sugar, beer, bread, butter, salt and fast food.

Try to eat at least 4 - 6 meals a day, keeping them small.

Sorry if I repeated anything anyone has already mentioned.

im practising something like that. the only problem is i LOVE pizza. so i try to make it low fat.

JT,

Yet another followup question or two for you:

1) Soy Protein powder - is there any problem to consuming this every day? After taking a dose of it, I find it's a great hunger inhibitor. I was thinking of using it for that, as well as to increase protein intake.

2) Carbs - What are your thoughts on white rice? Everybody tells me not to eat that, as it's high in carbs, but it's *white rice*! That's a main staple of asian diets (often eaten with every meal, and yes, I spent time in Japan), and asians aren't known for being fat.

Carbs are not fattening, no matter what the current diet faddists tell you.

Carbs can become fat very easily, especially if they have a high glycemic index (GI). Gi is a measure of how quickly a food will cause an increase in blood glucose levels.

Instead, nearly all the carbohydrate is burned for energy. The low-carb faddists conveniently overlook the fact that insulin promotes glucose uptake by muscle cells, where it is burned for energy. Contrast this with dietary fat, almost all of which goes directly into fat cells.

-Jay

Please explain this process a little more. If I eat carbs, you're telling me this will be burned off as energy. Is this something like slightly increasing my normal metabolic rate, or will I burn this extra carb-energy only if I'm excercising?

Or to make my question easier: If I eat lots of carbs but don't excercise (ie, take in more calories than I burn), will I gain more weight if that intake is carbs, as opposed to low-carb foods?

we're getting closer to agreeing i think. something you are leaving out is that if you eat high GI food (many high carb foods are high GI), then your body is flooded with calories(glucose), and you may not be able to burn them at a hogh enough rate to keep them from getting converted into fat...

Buy the cheap soy-protein powder. Let the muscle heads waste their money on designer whey peptides.
-Jay

I'm not too terribly up on my scientific nutrition, but somewhere recently, I heard that soybeans contain protein uptake inhibitors, as well as some nutrient uptake inhibitors, probably as a defense mechanism. This, if true, would suggest that soybeans themselves wouldn't be the best source of protein. I'm not sure whether that would carry over to soy-based protein powders, as I know essentially nothing about the process by which that stuff is made.

I think I have already answered that question. A calorie is a calorie. It doesn't matter what the source of the calorie is. You'll gain ~1 lb of fat for every 3500 calories you consume in excess of what you burn, regardless of the fat-carbohydrate composition of your diet. I hate to resort to macronutrient balance calculations, but here goes: Let's say you burn 2500 calories/day but consume 3000 calories, of which 2000 is carbohydrate and 1000 is fat (we'll conveniently ignore protein). To a first approximation, all the carbohydrate you consume will be burned. In addition, you will burn 500 calories of fat. That leaves 500 calories of fat unburned, which will be added to your body fat stores.

Is that why Rocky ate all the raw eggs, because it is high protein content while he was burning fat? Apollo Creed was no slouch. I am going to start drinking raw eggs all the time while i work out.

When you eat stuff that tastes good then you will eat more than you need to because you also get satisfaction from the taste and not just getting the nutrition you need. Take the Subway diets for instance. They're not losing weight because the sandwich is good for them. The reason why they lose weight is because they eat those things every day and every meal and so they get so sick of it that they are just eating what they need to and not eating extra for the taste.

Jay,

Is protein always a protein? I've read that soy and other vegetable proteins are not "complete" proteins, that animal protein is superior.

Some proteins are incomplete, but you can pair foods to end up with complete proteins. Brown rice and black-eyed peas, for instance, are both delicious together and make a complete protein.

jay you think if you took in for protein you wouldn't be such a jerk? It sucks to have someone just fill your thread that you worked hard on with useless bashing. Ya should remember this before ya go bashing in everyone elses thread

xcire flames jt512....

And is promptly squashed by Jay's vastly superior verbal skills. The poor kid never stood a chance.

The above post is an off-topic flame, and so I have moved it to Community.

Xcire, just because you work hard on a thread doesn't make it useful. You were stupid enough to have posted a TR about your obnoxious drunken behavior at J Tree, and I and others called you out on it. Your behavior and that of your friends was unacceptable, so what did you expect?

I have also come down hard on you for cluttering up the forums with inane questions; posting multiple, unrelated topics to a single thread; and being too lazy to seek out basic, published climbing information on your own.
When you learn to act like a responsible member of this online community and the larger climbing community, then you can expect to have my respect and that of other climbers. Until then, you won't.

-Jay

whoa.

the respect of other climbers is based upon one's conduct on this website? oh geez. uh oh. s---. s---!

whoa.

the respect of other climbers is based upon one's conduct on this website? oh geez. uh oh. s---. s---!

Just to clarrify...

Eric,

Your Trip Report is better than most, and I have read/scanned a bunch of them in my time. I realy like how you personalized it, and I really like your use of pics. It looks like you had a good time, and most importantly, that is what climbing is all about.

The issues Jay and others have, is the one's about the way you acted and your judgement about just a few things. Jay can be harsh at time, and I should know... He and I know each other, have tied in together, and he can even be harsh to me. Jay is just harsh sometimes. Don't personalize that, but look at what he is saying. Access is not too sensitive out at JTree, but our relationship with the Rangers is, and loud and boisterous behavior doesn't help. Jay cares about JTree, as that is one his home crags, just as it is mine, and many others on this site.


Are you a member of the Access Fund ??? If not, then may I suggest that you join, so you will get the newsletters and see just what the issues that effect access most are. It is the conduct of the climbers while at the crags we share with the public. If you cannot afford to join, let me pay 1 year's membership dues for you.


Fair enough ???




~Adam

xcire,

Sit down and shut the fukk up kid. OK, now that I have your attention, I want you to know that jt512 and I often argue about things on this website. However, we are friends and climb together occasionally. Jay is a good guy. What you need to realize is that the information he is passing along to you (abrasively perhaps) is for your own good. You would do well to listen instead of defending your past indiscretions. Just a word to the wise--so to speak.

Curt

Yes i am a member and thanks for your response. The thing that bothers me is that we were not loud at all. Our drunk boldering consisted of a 4 ft boulder 10 feet from the group campire. We were not screaming or throwing trash around. What bothers me is some one who thinks they can just talk trash. Everyone i have talked with that was there feels there was not a problem. This includes people who went to bed early. jay thinks he can post what ever he thinks without thinking about it. Im not to sure how a comment from someone who dindt have enoughf of a problem about it to ask people to be quite gives someone enough information to think we were being unappropriate. We could have been a little loud while walking past their tent but im not sure how that becomes an axcess issue. it doesnt take much to be talking to loud next to a tent. I spent extra time cleaning to make sure that i did my part and more. I take this serious and do care about our future rights with aspect to climbing. but from my little experience the way some people treat new people on here doesnt go far for adding to the climbers imiage. If some one is in the wrong tell them in an adult manner, yes im wrong at times but im not going to listen to some one calling me names

What you need to realize is that the information he is passing along to you (abrasively perhaps) is for your own good.

but from my little experience the way some people treat new people on here doesnt go far for adding to the climbers imiage. If some one is in the wrong tell them in an adult manner, yes im wrong at times but im not going to listen to some one calling me names.

You left out one small portion of the trip report… The idiotic battle over what path to use while drunkenly staggering to and from your tent with your loud newbie climber friends. Let me help you out here. For reference, your tents appear in the photos at the very rear of the campground. Note the two tents roughly 15 ft in front of them, one is navy blue.

Day 1: Jeff and I show up in the dark wondering where to find a quite unobtrusive place to pitch our tents. Jeff notes that this side of the campground is usually more quiet, boy was he wrong. So as we choose our spot, two highly intoxicated people stagger up and ask why we’re pitching our tents in “their drunk path”. Hmmm, I thought this was a group campground? After a very long day, we settle in after inserting our earplugs to quiet the noise coming from the party. 12:43AM, literally outside my tent fly, a baffled yell cries “Blahhh Liz, C’mon!”, Jolting me out of my sleep. I think, “Who’s the F*cking primate standing on top of my tent yelling? How rude!” 1:20AM: Loud footsteps trudging back and forth as the primates repeatedly step over my tent fly, pulling one of the steaks out of the ground. This sucks -

Day 2: After a long day climbing we settle in for some dinner and warmth by the campfire. It’s nice to see everyone again and there are even some new faces this year. After being slightly social, it’s time to crash. 11:10PM: More footsteps as the primates head back to their tents to retrieve more booze. 12:40AM: Up again, what the F*%K! Can’t these idiots walk around my tent? They obviously don’t know how to use their “night-time” voices! Damn primates!

Day 3: Another long day of climbing and some good campfire conversation. 12:40AM, Footsteps over my tent fly: crunch, crunch, crunch. Yelling: “Hiccup, I wonder why he put this stuff in our way” says the female primate to the male. Apparently, they were referring to the fact that my camp stove and camp chair was in “their” way. That’s it, I was ready to kick some drunk primate ass! Not worth it, it’s too cold and the alpha male outweighed me by +40lbs.

Day 4: The primates broke down their camp and actually walked around our tents. Apparently, the firewater had worn off. 10:30 PM: Despite the fact that there were still 15+ campers, the camprground noise was reasonable. Ahh peace and quiet, the primates have gone! Yaaaay!

Hey sorry to wake you but it was vacation and quite time isnt till 2 am...

If some one is in the wrong tell them in an adult manner, yes im wrong at times but im not going to listen to some one calling me names

Adam is right. Jay can be harsh at times, but a good guy none the less. I told him one night at dinner that he wasn't very warm and fuzzy. He just smiled and wore it like a badge of honor.

Are you sure it wasn't just a margarita-induced blank stare with accompanying stupid grin?

-Jay

Great post jt,
Thanks for taking the time. I read in Eric Horsts climbing training book that he gets alot of his protien from drinking skim milk (claims to drink a quart a day). Que biology leason from school which said infants have an enzyme (or something) called pepsin (or something else lol) which curdles the milk and makes it easier to digest. Apparently this enzyme isnt there later in life. I really dont know now if skim milk is a waste of time or a good source of protien. Whats your opinion?