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dangle
Sep 16, 2005, 6:20 AM
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I wonder if anyone here stopped to consider that if back in the 60s someone had shown Raffi Bedayn a "Helium" 'biner that HE would think it was a toy...
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smithclimber
Sep 16, 2005, 7:29 AM
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In reply to: clip in the stove... the pad... the stogies...and all the other s--- that comes out of the haul bag during the bivy. Ed
Crikey Ed... and you're concerned about the difference of a few ounces between 10 wiregates and your 10 toy biners? :roll:
Just an idea, but maybe things would be lighter if you ashewed such lavishness rather than counting the grams of those biners.
Don't get me wrong Ed, I understand your point... it's just sort of like a hiker going to the trouble of sawing off their toothbrush handle while they choose to bring a hard backed book for their "light reading".
Know whut I mean, Vern? :wink:
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t-dog
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Sep 16, 2005, 8:56 AM
Post #103 of 144
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In reply to: Was there some reason to think that he was safe doing this?
why not? If you're on a closely bolted sport climb and you've got a good draw below it, I don't see what harm a fun little physics experiment could do!! I know next time I'm at Echo Cliffs, I just might have to bring one of those up with me to see what it takes to break'em and what it's like to have pro blow on you!!!
Plus, those teeny biners always seem to hold way more than they claim, I've setup many hammocks with them that have held 2/3/4 people for what it's worth....
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epic_ed
Sep 16, 2005, 1:05 PM
Post #104 of 144
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Damn, Wes! Where have you been? Good to hear from you -- it's been a while.
As for the biners, an extra 10-20 ultra light-weight biners like the Camp Nano may be a much better way to go, but they would cost quite a bit more than than toys. I think I enjoy the convenience factor better than the weight savings. Once I'm on the ledge there is no need for me to have to go back up to the anchor or where ever I have the rack to scrounge for more biners. And there's no deconstructing the bivy that I have to wait aound for to retrieve the biners if I want to (have to?) take off on lead right after waking up.
Like I said, it works for me. YMMV.
Ed
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clausti
Sep 16, 2005, 2:04 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: my buddy jeff [~135 lbs] took *repeated* whips on one of the 150 biners, up to 15-17ish feet and never did manage to break any. Was there some reason to think that he was safe doing this? Any lead fall taken by a 135-lb climber would load the carabiner in excess 150 lbf. -Jay
OK, from what i understand this is how he had it set up...
1] he was in a gym, that has an steep lead wall to an arch that goes all the way across the roof.
2] they took a normal quickdraw, and clipped the toy biner through the rope side. so you have normal biner, dogbone, toy.
3] they clipped *both* that modified draw, and a normal draw to a bolt.
4] he clipped the rope into both draws, climbed past it on the roof, and took falls.
because the toy biner was shorter than the normal biner, when they were both hanging from the bolt it would load the toy biner first.
thus, if the toy biner busted, the catch point in the rope would drop an inch or so, then be on the real quickdraw.
adding a picture...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=61222
it'll show up whenever its approved and be a bit more clear.
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euroford
Sep 16, 2005, 3:37 PM
Post #106 of 144
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LOL, what we have here is a bunch of aid climbers critiquing the safety practices of indoor sport climbing. :D
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stymingersfink
Sep 17, 2005, 10:36 PM
Post #107 of 144
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In reply to: Up above it says you need maybe up to 100 free biners for A4/A5...this does not seem logical.
Well, I was merely mentioning the upper end of a ball park figure for an entire route. If you noticed, I mentioned that your 20 free biners might be more than enough for that A4/5 pitch. It's the getting there that may require more biners!
I took only 60 free ovals on my last wall... it seemed that I was constantly scrounging biners from where ever I could find them. Since then I've picked up a few more wire-gate ovals. I should have about 75 free biners for next weeks climb. The less agressively you back-clean, the more biners you will need. Couple things to keep in mind however: Don't clip the copperheads, cause if you fall and they zipper you'll just have to spend the rest of the day re-placing them. Cam hooks are NOT supposed to be fixed (even on the Zodiac). Taping hooks on the wall is the biggest BS psychological-pro i've heard of.
If you would like to see for yourself just how many biners it will take for an A4/5 pitch without committing to an entire route, may I respectfully suggest you try some of the routes Eric Kohl put up on the SE side of El Cap? He has established several climbs beginning with A4 pitches off the ground (insanity if you ask me). You can spend an entire week climbing A4, and never be more than 200' off the deck.
But ask yourself this...
Where would you rather zipper an entire pitch? 500' off the ground, where a 200' whip would leave you dangling in space, or 80' off the ground where any mistake results in a crater?
To answer your original question, is 20 biners enough for an A4/5 pitch?
Yes! Twenty is in fact more than enough, provided the only thing you clip is the chicken rivit some weak-kneed lilly-livered latter-day-sack-of-sh!t added mid-way through the pitch.
Using this logic you should get to the top of an A4/5 pitch with at least 19 extra 'biners. Right? :lol:
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stymingersfink
Sep 17, 2005, 10:52 PM
Post #108 of 144
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Couple of things to keep in mind about the whole toy biner thing mentioned abover.
First of all, without having a rigorous QA program, the variation in breaking strengths of "toy" biners will be all over the map. Some will break at ridiculously low values, others incredibly high.
Diameter of the biner itself. Shock loading a rope over such a small diameter surface will damage your rope more than you'd like to think about. True, most ropes are sharp-edge tested, but repeatedly subjecting your rope such conditions will wear it pre-maturely. Why would anyone do this?
Toy biners are cheap and easy to replace. Some years ago, before I began to understand the physics involved in fall forces, I thought a "toy" biner would make a great load-limiting device. Would someone else care to explain why this is not so?
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lambone
Sep 18, 2005, 8:04 AM
Post #109 of 144
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because you fall onto it, your rope stretches, then it breaks sending you on to the real biner with a more static rope.
75 or 100 biners is way overkill IMHO. you must carry a monster rack...
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stymingersfink
Sep 19, 2005, 11:32 PM
Post #110 of 144
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Personally, I would say 80-100 free biners IS overkill, but perhaps for someone who backcleans nothing or fumbles gear frequently this would be necessary. As stated earlier in the thread, it is a ballpark figure. (i'm also a gear pimp!)
Unless I'm soloing I tend to do a lot of short fixing, which means a portion of gear is unavailable to me at the beginning of the next pitch. To facilitate getting moving while the 2nd is still cleaning, I carry a few extra biners and rarely leave a cam behind. Once they arrive at the belay, they will tag me whatever gear I'm deficient, feed me the remainder of the lead line, then begin hauling.
Or maybe it's just because I got tired of scrounging for 'biners. I can carry nearly 20 more wiregate ovals without paying a penalty for the weight (over carrying standard ovals). So I do. For a total of 70 free ovals. Funny thing is, the farther up the stone I get, the fewer free biners i seem to have.
^^^:wtf:^^^ :?:
Monster Rack? In addition to personal gear, I would consider my standard wall rack to include:
2x hybrid aliens blue/black thru yellow/red
2x aliens blue-red
2x Camalots .5-6 (larger un-needed cams may be left on the ground)
2x peckers sizes 1-3
2x hooks (talon, cliffhanger, skyhook)
3 Leeper cam hooks (1 ea narrow, med, wide)
2x micro/offset nuts
1.5-2x BD stoppers
10-12 cinch rivit hangers
assortment of copperheads + punch kit
50-70 free biners
6-8 lockers
8-10 60cm slings
6-8 30cm slings
6-8 screamers (various)
10-12 tie-off slings
2x anchor kits (each one contains 2x120cm slings, 1xdaisy chain, 1 large locker, 1 small locker)
My rack may be smaller and lighter than most, as it includes only thin iron. I've yet to find myself in a situation where upwards progress is dependent on me pounding a LA or angle into a crack. Often something else will work, even it it means stepping up to a longer runout on questionable placements.
As far as the toy-biner limiters go, don't forget it's also a function of the time element. Spreading the force out over as long a period as possible limits maximum impact forces.
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clausti
Sep 20, 2005, 3:16 AM
Post #111 of 144
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In reply to: because you fall onto it, your rope stretches, then it breaks sending you on to the real biner with a more static rope.
not if you're giving a soft catch. i suppose it would if you're anchored and just locked off.
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atg200
Sep 20, 2005, 2:13 PM
Post #112 of 144
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how are you going to give a soft catch with a grigri when you are fast asleep on the portaledge 5 hours into your partners lead?
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epic_ed
Sep 20, 2005, 4:31 PM
Post #114 of 144
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Yet another trophy for Andy. Clausti, there are some things that are just different between the sport climbing world and aid. I only get a soft catch when a screamer deploys.
Ed
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lambone
Sep 20, 2005, 7:45 PM
Post #115 of 144
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it could probably be considered a soft catch when four or five of your pieces blow before you stop... :lol:
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clausti
Sep 21, 2005, 3:42 AM
Post #116 of 144
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ok correct me if i'm wrong, but you can still give a soft catch through an ATC if you're anchored, right? in theory?
by like, letting out a little more extra rope as they start to hit the fall?
that being said i've never done it. i jump when necc, or i let myself get pulled off the ground for some pretty effective soft catches.
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lambone
Sep 21, 2005, 3:49 AM
Post #117 of 144
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In reply to: by like, letting out a little more extra rope as they start to hit the fall?
theoretically yes, because more rope=more stretch=softer catch. However, just a few feet extra isn't going to make a huge difference.
It WILL however help to reduce the pendulum effect of the falling leader, which could save an ankle.
Actually an ATC in itself provides a bit more of a "softer" catch then a Gri-Gri by nature becauce there is a bit of rope slippage during the catch, whereas the Gri-Gri is almost completely static.
In reply to: that being said i've never done it. i jump when necc, or i let myself get pulled off the ground for some pretty effective soft catches.
that's the best method. The key element however with the jump technique (especially with questionable gear) is not to jump too early. Jump to early and what you have is two falling climbers onto one piece of pro rather then a climber and belayer.
This is definately not aidclimber talk. However the same principles can apply in a hairy situation up on the wall.
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clausti
Sep 21, 2005, 4:29 AM
Post #118 of 144
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In reply to: In reply to: that being said i've never done it. i jump when necc, or i let myself get pulled off the ground for some pretty effective soft catches. that's the best method. The key element however with the jump technique (especially with questionable gear) is not to jump too early. Jump to early and what you have is two falling climbers onto one piece of pro rather then a climber and belayer.
usually you can feel right when they start to hit it and you need to jump though.
In reply to: This is definately not aidclimber talk. However the same principles can apply in a hairy situation up on the wall.
but wouldnt it be *especially* profitable for an aid climber to know how to give a softer catch? if it came down to that? or is not even your anchor fall-rated? just body weight?
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jt512
Sep 21, 2005, 6:21 AM
Post #119 of 144
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In reply to: In reply to: by like, letting out a little more extra rope as they start to hit the fall? theoretically yes, because more rope=more stretch=softer catch. However, just a few feet extra isn't going to make a huge difference. It WILL however help to reduce the pendulum effect of the falling leader, which could save an ankle.
Lambone, she's talking about giving a dynamic belay by intentionally letting rope slide through the ATC, rather than just locking it off. You're talking about slack. Not the same.
In reply to: Actually an ATC in itself provides a bit more of a "softer" catch then a Gri-Gri by nature becauce there is a bit of rope slippage during the catch, whereas the Gri-Gri is almost completely static.
And a skilled belayer can vary the amount of rope that slips through, which is what clausti is talking about doing.
In reply to: In reply to: that being said i've never done it. i jump when necc, or i let myself get pulled off the ground for some pretty effective soft catches. that's the best method.
Jumping is not even remotely the best method to give a dynamic belay using an ATC. In the hands of skilled belayer, letting rope slip through is the better approach because the belayer has far greater control over just how dynamic a catch he gives. Not to mention that the technique can be used in situations that a jump can't, such as at a hanging belay.
-Jay
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lambone
Sep 21, 2005, 8:05 AM
Post #120 of 144
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ok mr skilled belayer. :roll:
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atg200
Sep 21, 2005, 12:51 PM
Post #121 of 144
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In reply to: but wouldnt it be *especially* profitable for an aid climber to know how to give a softer catch? if it came down to that? or is not even your anchor fall-rated? just body weight?
not really. the benefits of a softer catch in not blowing gear are way overrated in my experience. i've taken wingers onto ancient bent knifeblades and tiny aliens in mud in the fisher towers, and they have held fine with a static catch. better to use screamers to reduce impact forces.
i would much prefer to be belayed with a grigri mostly because hard aid just takes so damn long. realistically, my attention as a belayer starts to wander after a couple of hours. its also a much bigger benefit to be able to safely dig around in the haul bag for food, send up extra gear on the tag line, take a dump, or whatever then it is to give a sport climber compliant "soft catch".
aid anchors generally have to be very bomber to handle hauling. there are exceptions of course, but most competent aid climbs slam in a new fat bolt when faced with a 2 crappy bolt belay.
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dangle
Sep 21, 2005, 8:28 PM
Post #122 of 144
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I must have an underdeveloped sense of humor. Could someone please explain to me why trolling is so entertaining. Are people so bored with themselves that that they actually LIKE to waste OTHER people's time? Does that somehow seem to make THEIR lives more valuable?
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climbhigher
Sep 22, 2005, 4:19 AM
Post #123 of 144
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Who back cleans when they lead A4/A5? I guess it all comes down to get by with what you got or bail.............
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pmyche
Sep 22, 2005, 9:54 PM
Post #124 of 144
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In reply to: Who back cleans when they lead A4/A5?
Unless it's a fifty-foot pitch or packing a goon biner rack or unless one loves chiseling out deadheads and/or drilling rivets, probably everyone on that terrain.
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climbhigher
Sep 23, 2005, 1:05 AM
Post #125 of 144
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Dangle, Nobody is trolling here.
I see. So you don't clip the heads, when you lead A4/A5. Does A5 mean there's no heads and no rivets and nothing is modifyed? Otherwise, It's A4?
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