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ceramiclover
Aug 24, 2005, 1:34 AM
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there seem to be no new posts from him for about 2 years. maybe he changed his name, but i have found nothing on this.
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philbox
Moderator
Aug 24, 2005, 1:36 AM
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You`ll find him on super taco and rock and ice.
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squish
Aug 24, 2005, 1:55 AM
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Yeah, and what about the other Dr. ?
The most entertaining characters seem to get chased away with a big stick.
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ceramiclover
Aug 24, 2005, 2:00 AM
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what the hell is super taco?
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oklahoma_climber
Aug 24, 2005, 2:43 AM
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In reply to: Yeah, and what about the other Dr. ? The most entertaining characters seem to get chased away with a big stick.
you talking about DrKodos? i think he was "asked to leave" for some inappropriateness... but i can't for the life of me think of where i got that information, so it may not be credible.
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philbox
Moderator
Aug 24, 2005, 3:15 AM
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As a general rule this site does not discuss the reasons that any particular person is asked to leave. We will state however that a person needs to try really really hard and practically beg for us to take that sort of extreme action. All one has to do is to maintain a civil discourse with other members and there is then no way that they would be asked to leave.
When we do ask a person to leave we have the welfare of the great majority of users in mind. Out of the many thousands of users on this site there would only be one user a year if that that we have had to ask to leave for reasons other than spam or porn. We bend over backwards to accomodate varying and different opinions on this site. Just because you have a different opinion from your fellow user and hold strongly to that opinion will never be cause for us to ask you to leave. I am of course giving a for instance here and not speaking of any particular person or circumstance.
We would far and away prefer to allow a user to make themselves look like idiots than take preemptive action and the mods be seen as nazi mods. The principle of the users self modding is a raging success and we have no intention of changing this policy. We definitely will act against spammers forthwith, they get nuked immediately no warnings given and against users who drop porn images into posts, they get a warning but if they persist they are shown the door, we don`t make apologies for doing so either.
We take all of your opinions into consideration when formulating the policies that the mods adhere to. Of course any user can state their case for change in the suggestions and questions forum. But if you ask me to relate the reasons for any person not being around any longer then I have to refuse. I speak only in generalities for the most part when dealing with these issues.
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squish
Aug 24, 2005, 4:36 AM
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So, how come all the great supervilains have "Dr." names? Do you think they actually hold a diploma or is it just self-imposed out of ego?
Dr. Doom
Dr. Claw
Dr. Evil
Dr. Piton
Dr. Kødøs
I wonder if that little albino freak Dragon has a doctorate... Maybe he's just too classy to flaunt it.
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philbox
Moderator
Aug 24, 2005, 5:01 AM
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Not the Craw, I said Craw, not Craw.
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ceramiclover
Aug 24, 2005, 1:15 PM
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thanks. he got booted. that was what i was wondering.
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kman
Aug 24, 2005, 2:45 PM
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Too bad he's not here. He was a wealth of information and was very entertaining. Rc.com is missing out.
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marc801
Aug 24, 2005, 2:48 PM
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What? No mention of Dr. No?
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sevrdhed
Aug 24, 2005, 2:58 PM
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Yeah, and how about Dr. Dolittle? That guy was PURE evil.
Steve
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edge
Aug 24, 2005, 3:05 PM
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In reply to: Too bad he's not here. He was a wealth of information and was very entertaining. Rc.com is missing out.
A self proclaimed know it all is about as useful as tits on a bull. You may get some liquid out of them, but it is not at all what you would deem usefull.
The full story is out there, if you care to dig a bit.
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shakylegs
Aug 24, 2005, 3:11 PM
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Mmmmm, tits on a bull.
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edge
Aug 24, 2005, 3:20 PM
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In reply to: Mmmmm, tits on a bull.
Yep, Shakey, that is the same liquid you would find on a submarine.
Full of "seamen."
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mother_sheep
Aug 24, 2005, 3:35 PM
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And what about Dr. Who? I liked his hair.
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jeffstephan
Aug 24, 2005, 3:41 PM
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In reply to: what the hell is super taco?
You made my morning.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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shakylegs
Aug 24, 2005, 4:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Mmmmm, tits on a bull. Yep, Shakey, that is the same liquid you would find on a submarine. Full of "seamen."
Heh, when my mom was a young blushing bride, my pops took her to the old homestead, a farm near the gulf of the St-Lawrence. My mom, innocent young thing, asked my great uncle if bulls produced cream. My great uncle showed her the difference.
It's been a long-standing joke in our family.
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jelliott
Aug 24, 2005, 4:25 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Mmmmm, tits on a bull. Yep, Shakey, that is the same liquid you would find on a submarine. Full of "seamen." Heh, when my mom was a young blushing bride, my pops took her to the old homestead, a farm near the gulf of the St-Lawrence. My mom, innocent young thing, asked my great uncle if bulls produced cream. My great uncle showed her the difference. It's been a long-standing joke in our family. |
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ricardol
Aug 24, 2005, 6:06 PM
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In my opinion, RC.com basically mad a mistake in managing its users..
.. the aid forum is all but dead .. not just because they booted pete, but because the population of aid climbers (experienced or not) is basically single digits.
.. something inthe management of the site has to do with the # of aid climbers that still care to post around here.
.. they should invite pete back to the forum, and also send out invitations to the other users who have left to come back and revive the aid forum. -- even if 1/2 the threads were flames .. there was still useful info being traded once in a while.
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tim
Aug 24, 2005, 6:48 PM
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In reply to: .. the aid forum is all but dead .. not just because they booted pete, but because the population of aid climbers (experienced or not) is basically single digits.
Not sure what there is to say about that -- if you're an aid climber, you're going to end up on SuperTopo sooner or later, as best as I can tell. It seems rather quixotic to fight the self-organization of people into groups, or the migration of those groups to their natural homes. If you're mostly climbing walls in Yosemite, you're probably going to end up spending more time there than at other sites. What else is there to say?
For what it's worth, much of the discourse even on SuperTopo has little or nothing to do with aid climbing, or any type of climbing for that matter.
There are not many recent Dr. Piton topics over on ST, either, now that I think of it. At least, not the old-school "Better Way" threads familiar to old-tymers on this site. Your opinion about Pete is noted, but I can tell you right off the bat that it ain't gonna happen. People who put a lot of effort into making themselves persona non grata usually succeed.
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stymingersfink
Aug 24, 2005, 7:01 PM
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In reply to: Mmmmm, tits on a bull.
As I've always said, "Milk a steer and you'll have a friend for life!"
http://www.stevenrotsch.com/...steer%20wrestler.jpg
I sense a beautiful friendship in the making. (that may or may not be Dr. Peed-on at the helm, I don't know.)
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dingus
Aug 24, 2005, 7:07 PM
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In reply to: There are not many recent Dr. Piton topics over on ST, either, now that I think of it. At least, not the old-school "Better Way" threads familiar to old-tymers on this site.
Pete conducting a 'better way' seminar there would be like me advising Mike Reardon on the dangers of free soloing.
He stuck his piton in the air a few times and it was pounded soundly.
Tough crowd.
DMT
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piton
Aug 24, 2005, 8:13 PM
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is that why ptpp writes an article for a mag now. and kodos is cleaning up the crime at Twall
it's just that this site is managed by a bunch noobs that yell take. that's right!
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overlord
Aug 24, 2005, 8:16 PM
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he got the boot. i was sorry to see him go though :P
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edge
Aug 24, 2005, 8:23 PM
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In reply to: is that why ptpp writes an article for a mag now.
And a sh!tty, self important article at that. I am glad I learned real aid technique before being exposed to "The Better Way."
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ricardol
Aug 24, 2005, 10:12 PM
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In reply to: is that why ptpp writes an article for a mag now. and Richard DiCredico is cleaning up the crime at Twall it's just that this site is managed by a bunch noobs that yell take. that's right!
.. that would have been my guess too ..
.. the signal to noise ratio at st.com is out of control -- what i am pointing to is that the way the forum is run, has a direct link to the fact that noone uses the aid forum here. --
.. basically we dont even have a signal here ..
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crimpandgo
Aug 24, 2005, 10:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: is that why ptpp writes an article for a mag now. and Richard DiCredico is cleaning up the crime at Twall it's just that this site is managed by a bunch noobs that yell take. that's right! .. that would have been my guess too .. .. the signal to noise ratio at st.com is out of control -- what i am pointing to is that the way the forum is run, has a direct link to the fact that noone uses the aid forum here. -- .. basically we dont even have a signal here ..
complain complain complain....
volunteer your time? make suggestions?
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philbox
Moderator
Aug 24, 2005, 10:29 PM
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I`m very happy to take suggestions on board.
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ricardol
Aug 24, 2005, 10:30 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: is that why ptpp writes an article for a mag now. and Richard DiCredico is cleaning up the crime at Twall it's just that this site is managed by a bunch noobs that yell take. that's right! .. that would have been my guess too .. .. the signal to noise ratio at st.com is out of control -- what i am pointing to is that the way the forum is run, has a direct link to the fact that noone uses the aid forum here. -- .. basically we dont even have a signal here .. complain complain complain.... volunteer your time? make suggestions?
uhhh ... volunteer to do what? -- babysit the empty forum? ..
.. i am making suggestions -- i'm suggesting that whatever the forum managers did to scare everyone away, be undone..
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dingus
Aug 24, 2005, 10:32 PM
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In reply to: make suggestions?
I have some!
Stop taking all these forums so seriously that you feel the site is lacking because aid climbing is under-represented. Does this site have to be all things to all climbers?
I have noted a similar lack of signal in the bouldering forum. Since that Cocks dude left, there has basically been no action there at all save some nice propping up by curt and bvb.
A site-to-site link to b.com and st.com when clicking on those respective forums would be the *best thing* in terms of community service.
While you're at it, lose the stupid slack lining forum too. Hot link that forum to http://www.ringling.com
Glad to be of assistance!
DMT
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darkside
Aug 24, 2005, 11:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: he got the boot. i was sorry to see him go though :P Au contraire, more like a mutual parting of the ways.
That's not what he told me when I met and asked him.
Misinformation?
Confusion?
Someone just plain lying?
Puerility?
:roll: Who bloody cares. It makes no difference to me where Pete posts but I've seen two sides of this website myself, with a nice combo of the above.
This site (like anywhere on the web, and real life) has it's share of self important, control freak, ego-trippers.
It makes me feel dirty just thinking about it. I should go and clean up by posting in community :twisted:
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ricardol
Aug 24, 2005, 11:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: make suggestions? I have some! Stop taking all these forums so seriously that you feel the site is lacking because aid climbing is under-represented. Does this site have to be all things to all climbers? I have noted a similar lack of signal in the bouldering forum. Since that Cocks dude left, there has basically been no action there at all save some nice propping up by curt and bvb. A site-to-site link to b.com and st.com when clicking on those respective forums would be the *best thing* in terms of community service. While you're at it, lose the stupid slack lining forum too. Hot link that forum to http://www.ringling.com Glad to be of assistance! DMT
godamm! -- dingus is the voice of reason..
thanks.
[i'm off to st.com to see what the latest liberal vs. conservative mud slinging has to offer]
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skinner
Aug 25, 2005, 3:42 AM
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I don't know or care what PTPP did; he was gone before I came along.
Yet his posts were still being resurrected on a regular basis with people both endorsing and pooh-pooh-ing his "Better Way" techniques for quite some time.
The one thing that Petes posts accomplished was.. they generated a great deal of discussion.
In Petes absence, the Zion history thread has been one of the few worthwhile aid threads.
Lately it seems like the only NEW threads I see are "What is Aid Climbing?"
Can you send them to Super Taco too?
:wink:
Complaining? Me? Naw.. just think that the aid forum could use another Pete.. or two.
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lambone
Aug 25, 2005, 5:52 AM
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I think you should let Pete back, as long as he behaves curtiously to others.
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squish
Aug 25, 2005, 5:59 AM
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In reply to: I think you should let Pete back, as long as he behaves curtiously to others. |
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philbox
Moderator
Aug 25, 2005, 6:13 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I think you should let Pete back, as long as he behaves curtiously to others. I think they'd need to buy some more hard drives to store all those [colour] and tags first...
As Tim stated Pete coming back is not an option.
Heh, we don`t have enough storage space for all the html he used to use in his posts.
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lambone
Aug 25, 2005, 6:44 AM
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In reply to: I`m very happy to take suggestions on board.
you asked...
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ricardol
Aug 25, 2005, 7:12 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I`m very happy to take suggestions on board. you asked...
.. you guys should seriously consider bringing him back .. i mean -- if even lambone suggested it ...
.. you can't accuse lambone of being a ptpp supporter --
matt -- how's it going buddy? -- got plans to be in the valley this fall?
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flamer
Aug 25, 2005, 3:44 PM
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In reply to: .. the aid forum is all but dead .. not just because they booted pete, but because the population of aid climbers (experienced or not) is basically single digits.
Pete had something to do with that....he wanted to be the one and only...and he'd get all bent out of shape if someone else knew something....they'd get sick of his BS and either leave or just quit posting.
josh
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ricardol
Aug 25, 2005, 4:46 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: .. the aid forum is all but dead .. not just because they booted pete, but because the population of aid climbers (experienced or not) is basically single digits. Pete had something to do with that....he wanted to be the one and only...and he'd get all bent out of shape if someone else knew something....they'd get sick of his BS and either leave or just quit posting. josh
.. agreed .. i think this argument was made while he was still here ..
my hypothesis on the absence of experienced aid climbers on this forum goes like this.. (in no particular order)
#1 - admins who were also users.. (one minute you were an admin dishing out policy -- the next you were dishing out flame-bait or plain-ole-flames)
#2 - overbearing policies.. (compare/contrast to supertopo -- where as long as you dont post that you are part of an al-quaeda cell, its pretty much ok) -- and you rarely see chris mac getting involved to resolve any issues.
#3 - software that encourages newbies (or just people who dont know much about the topic) to post to every thread.
* every post gets on the front page, and most of the time people dont know that it came from the aid forum
* it elevates the noob/signal ratio.
#4 - flamers reason (above) --
.. thats my hypothesis ..
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piton
Aug 25, 2005, 4:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: is that why ptpp writes an article for a mag now. And a sh!tty, self important article at that. I am glad I learned real aid technique before being exposed to "The Better Way."
overheard edge at the cliff "TAKE!"
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dingus
Aug 25, 2005, 5:03 PM
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In reply to: my hypothesis on the absence of experienced aid climbers on this forum goes like this.. (in no particular order) #1 - admins who were also users.. #2 - overbearing policies.. #3 - software that encourages newbies (or just people who dont know much about the topic) to post to every thread. #4 - flamers reason (above) -- .. thats my hypothesis ..
Considering the st crowd as the baseline for honest to god aid climbers, I think your reason #3 is truly #1 and is Zuess-like in its ability to overrule all the other reasons, all at the same time.
It isn't that wall climbers are intolerant of noobies. Oh hell, yes it is! The learning curve to wall competence is very steep (get it... STEEP???). These guys have paid their dues the honest way, standing in aiders. They seem to prefer talking to others of similar experience and expertise, saves a helluva lotta time on explanations.
I mean, really... consider Klaus in the rc.com midst. He just wouldn't last.
However, there ARE some very experienced aid climbers on rc.com obviously. Most of them don't seem to have the need to be the world's foremost internet aid teachers. Neither does ptpp anymore, it would seem.
I like him much better now.
DMT
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edge
Aug 25, 2005, 5:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: is that why ptpp writes an article for a mag now. And a sh!tty, self important article at that. I am glad I learned real aid technique before being exposed to "The Better Way." overheard edge at the cliff "TAKE!"
Really? Where was that?
I have probably logged 100X more feet in air time than you have spent in years living.
I guess my response to your PM was too brutal, and you now need to spew bullsh!t to compensate for your lack of manhood.
Congrats!
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skinner
Aug 25, 2005, 6:14 PM
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In reply to: #3 - software that encourages newbies (or just people who dont know much about the topic) to post to every thread. * every post gets on the front page, and most of the time people dont know that it came from the aid forum * it elevates the noob/signal ratio. #4 - flamers reason (above) --
You know.. ricardol has a very good point here.
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jt512
Aug 25, 2005, 6:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: my hypothesis on the absence of experienced aid climbers on this forum goes like this.. (in no particular order) #1 - admins who were also users.. #2 - overbearing policies.. #3 - software that encourages newbies (or just people who dont know much about the topic) to post to every thread. #4 - flamers reason (above) -- .. thats my hypothesis .. Considering the st crowd as the baseline for honest to god aid climbers, I think your reason #3 is truly #1
Based on my sample of N=1 elite aid climbing friends, I agree. Too much wading thru mass quantities of redundant posts by almost completely illiterate adolescents to possibly find a hidden gem or two of useful information. He'll have nothing to do with the site.
-Jay
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dingus
Aug 25, 2005, 6:48 PM
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In reply to: He'll have nothing to do with the site. -Jay
I was going to ask, 'to his credit Jay. So what character flaws keep me (and you) coming back? Then I thought... 'do I REALLY want to know the answer to that question?' Hah!
Would it even matter?
But in fact, I LIKE the youth of this site, its illiteracy and irreverance and ignorance. All these people who incessantly pipe up with book-read solutions to problems they have never personally faced... Welcome to YOUTH!
There is a youthful vibrancy of the constituency here absent in all the other climbing forums I read. I value that spirit. Now that the moderators are no longer imposing their own personal views of Nirvanna on everyone else, I think this site is pretty good personally.
Cheers
DMT
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cracklover
Aug 25, 2005, 6:53 PM
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In reply to: chased away with a big stick.
In reply to: Full of "seamen."
In reply to: He stuck his piton in the air a few times
The truth is out there...
G:lol:
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j_ung
Aug 25, 2005, 7:13 PM
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Ricardol, with all due respect, I think your mistaking the people that use RC.com for the site, itself. The forums are what the users of the forums make them (within reason -- no porn, spam, etc.). And nothing more. We've never hired or recruited personalities to populate them.
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tim
Aug 25, 2005, 8:07 PM
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In reply to: It isn't that wall climbers are intolerant of noobies. Oh hell, yes it is! The learning curve to wall competence is very steep (get it... STEEP???). These guys have paid their dues the honest way, standing in aiders. They seem to prefer talking to others of similar experience and expertise, saves a helluva lotta time on explanations.
People self-organize into groups by interest and ambition. If you primarily climb walls, or want to, SuperTopo will hold a natural attraction. When Pete was here drawing n00bs to the Better Way, there was a natural attraction, but I feel like it was all a sham. Wanting to bend Werner or Deuce or Fish's ear... well, if you're going up on a wall you might as well ask someone who's likely to know. It's not that there aren't plenty of people on rc.com with walls under their belt -- it's more that there is a higher concentration at ST, and many people use both boards.
In reply to: I mean, really... consider Klaus in the rc.com midst. He just wouldn't last.
Bingo. Bryan Law and I had this discussion 3 years ago.
As for 'software that encourages people to post crap, crap on the fp", etc.:
Ricardo, you and Jay need to have a steel cage match over this one. I'll provide the raw meat and filtering algorithms. Rules are simple: two men enter, one man leaves. Winner gets to be the tin-pot dictator of the front page.
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j_ung
Aug 25, 2005, 9:10 PM
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Wait. What? Jay = me? I only control the order of the features on the FP (and that for less than 48 hours). I don't want any say over what legitimate users post in forums. Get it away from me!
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philbox
Moderator
Aug 25, 2005, 9:32 PM
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I have a suggestion.
We turn this forum into a private usergroup members only forum much the same as the photo critique forum and like what the warriors way forum used to be like. In other words to post you had to become a member by asking the mod in charge to enter your name into a usergroup.
I say we still allow the forum posts to echo to the front page and for all to be able to view the posts. This should cut down on the drive by shooting type of nOOB!!1111 posts.
Would this make the forum too elite or would it turn into someones little feifdom. We`d have to suck it and see to be able to answer that question.
It would certainly elevate the quality of content. Other forums that exist that are highly moderated and or controlled somewhat exhibit a very high signal to noise ratio.
Over to you guys, I`m very happy to be guided by what you want. The only thing that is not negotiable is allowing ptpp to come back, I just am simply not able to do that. Everything else is up to you guys.
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tim
Aug 25, 2005, 10:30 PM
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In reply to: Wait. What? Jay = me? I only control the order of the features on the FP (and that for less than 48 hours). I don't want any say over what legitimate users post in forums. Get it away from me!
no no, I mean jt512. Anson already coded up an Evil Plot To Allow Users More Control of Teh Forums; Jay sez the front page should remain as it is, a torrent of n00bery.
Ricardo, in the opposite corner, says n00bs are teh suxx0r.
Therefore, like matter and antimatter, they must smash themselves together for our entertainment, and one shall emerge victorious.
There can be only one!
I do like the idea that if you're not proposing to blow the president's face off (and sometimes if you are) we don't bother to censure you anymore. Biting peoples' heads off, unprovoked == bad. Biting peoples' heads off, provoked == A-OK. I can live with that...
As for kodos, come ON, it's not like he ever left! koh-dos is dead, long live kodos. And if he is cleaning up crime at the T-wall then so much the better, it just goes to show how different people can be in real life vs. the intarweb.
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jt512
Aug 25, 2005, 10:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Wait. What? Jay = me? I only control the order of the features on the FP (and that for less than 48 hours). I don't want any say over what legitimate users post in forums. Get it away from me! no no, I mean jt512. Anson already coded up an Evil Plot To Allow Users More Control of Teh Forums; Jay sez the front page should remain as it is, a torrent of n00bery.
Not that I have a vote or anythhing, but I'd be all in favor of individual users having more control over what they see on the front page. What I think is BS is having some formula determine what I see based on some programmer's interpretation of how my actions on the site determine my preferences.
In reply to: Ricardo, in the opposite corner, says n00bs are teh suxx0r. Therefore, like matter and antimatter, they must smash themselves together for our entertainment, and one shall emerge victorious.
Could be wrong, but if you can devise an experiment in which a particle and its antiparticle meet and one emerges, then you've got yourself a Nobel.
-Jay
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papounet
Aug 26, 2005, 9:11 AM
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On Dr Piton's issue, his post were entertaining at first. I must say they have drawn me into rc. After some time pondering the "advices", I can only say that the most beneficial aspect were perhaps that they encouraged some people (at least me) to think over the various solutions to the problems of aid climbing. I believe that, for good and bad, he may have inspired some to try aid. Nonetheless, from some glimpses, I believe I understand some of why he is persona non grata.
Have you considered how stroked he would be to see that he is still very much a discussion point so long after his last post. I am 200% certain he has an alert to tell him how often he comes up here ;-).
On improvments suggestions, I have one to offer:
Why don't you display the rating of the user or color code it ?
why not try a bonus based on higly rated posts number vs. total post number and a malus based on number of users who ignores you.
The rank from boulderer to demented typist may be funny but aren't that helpful.
I have seen the signal to noise ratio go up and down for some time.
To cut down on repat threads , why not have better sticky (such as one on cordelette or one on dyneema in the gear forum) ?
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atg200
Aug 27, 2005, 12:44 AM
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it seems to me that talking about aid climbing is generally pretty dull.
for the most part, 90% of all questions anybody asks could be handled merely by that person reading john long's how to climb big walls book and then getting a few pitches under their belts. the simple topics are boring, repetitive and pointless. worse is when some jackass gumbie tells a guy like fish that he doesn't know what he is talking about when answering one of those simple questions.
the remaining interesting things to talk about for the most part require a real expert to get any real insight. there is nothing that i or the other guys heading up trade routes can tell you that you shouldn't be able to figure out pretty easily on your own by logging more pitches. i roll my eyes when i see people wanting blow by blow instructions for how to do certain tasks rather than just spending some time and figuring things out. i certainly did that years ago when pete was first on the scene, and really very little of what he told me has been very helpful in the long run. you just don't really gain any mastery over these systems without a lot of time and being bright enough to figure it out, and the experience of learning to learn these systems is what makes it so that you can improvise on a wall if things go wrong, or to find better ways to do certain tasks.
in any event, the real experts seem to have all left for various reasons. some got bored, some figured it was futile, and some definitely left because of pete's attitude. i don't see how it is sustainable to have folks like klaus, bryan law, ammon, duece, or whoever post here regularly - it must get boring to pontificate all the time unless you need the ego stroking.
finally, i think that spending so much time cavalierly talking about how easy walls are is definitely getting some folks into trouble. supertaco just isn't overrun with new climbers like this site is(and nobody really talks much about climbing there anyway anymore), but i shudder when i hear about some people's plans here. there are the exceptions like ricardol that are able to just step up and go for it, but then there are others like amber who get themselves into a world of hurt because all this talk makes wall climbing seem so accessible and safe, and like everyone is doing it. i think it is a shame that big wall climbing has lost a lot of mystique because of the huge amounts of beta and spray out there.
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curt
Aug 27, 2005, 12:57 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: chased away with a big stick. In reply to: Full of "seamen." In reply to: He stuck his piton in the air a few times The truth is out there... G:lol:
Indeed, Pete is no longer here because of his countless attempts to drive his piton into inappropriate places, some of which were protected by Federal law.
Curt
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jt512
Aug 27, 2005, 3:51 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: chased away with a big stick. In reply to: Full of "seamen." In reply to: He stuck his piton in the air a few times The truth is out there... G:lol: Indeed, Pete is no longer here because of his countless attempts to drive his piton into inappropriate places, some of which were protected by Federal law. Curt
Hey, Curt, haven't we heard this joke before?
-Jay
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curt
Aug 27, 2005, 3:58 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: chased away with a big stick. In reply to: Full of "seamen." In reply to: He stuck his piton in the air a few times The truth is out there... G:lol: Indeed, Pete is no longer here because of his countless attempts to drive his piton into inappropriate places, some of which were protected by Federal law. Curt Hey, Curt, haven't we heard this joke before? -Jay
I suppose that's quite possible, Jay.
Curt
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climbhigher
Aug 27, 2005, 8:20 AM
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Pete has contributed Lot to this forum even if most of it is bullshit. I learned how to dock a pig by reading his shit. And he gave me alot of food for thought.
It's not like you need to know all the stuff Pete knows to climb walls. Did Charlie Porter dock his pig? probably not. He probably would beat the hell out of his sling with a hammer until the sling snapped and there went the pig.
Just learn the basics. Besides, Tricks are for kids.
So, where on this forum did Pete exhibit any kind of child porn or any porn what so ever? I would like to know. And I am not defending him. I just hate childish rumors. And just because he likes 18.... 20, 21....23....25...28...33 year olds does not make him a pedophile. Might make him kind of weird, but does not make him a ped.
Keep it simple stupid.
Peace out
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papounet
Aug 27, 2005, 2:59 PM
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In reply to: ... and the experience of learning to learn these systems is what makes it so that you can improvise on a wall if things go wrong, or to find better ways to do certain tasks.
true, totally true, and apply to any climb where things can go wrong (multi pitch, alpine,..)
It is not a question of having paid our dues to the way olders have toiled before you, but it is about having internalized how the whole environnement works, your own capabilities and the limits of your equipment.
Giving only ONE best way to do some thing (such as setting up a belay station with this or that equipment) set up the poor listener to be stranded if he does no longer have the right gear.
Edited for grammatical reasons (may still be incorrect or difficult to understand)
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climbhigher
Aug 27, 2005, 3:43 PM
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Hey Curt. Pete was hitting on minors in here? Sending them PM's?
Here's a question for a Dr Piton. Has anyone ever used a 6 mil with a 9 mil climbing rope to reppel on? What was the outcome? For alpine climbing.
Can you double up a 6mil and reppel on it alone? 7mil assesory cord? 8 mil assesory card? More of a alpine question.
Is 15 quickdraws and 20 free biners enough for A4? A5? How many screamers do you carry? Where do you use them?
Do you carry more quickdraws or more biners?
How often do you equalize placements when climbing A4....A5. Is it pretty common practice.
Can a person solo Elcap in a push in 48 hours without bonking? What strategies do you use to keep from BONKING while doing El Cap in a push?
I try to think of how much water i need per a pitch not how much water i need per a day. Like 1 quart per a pitch climbed that day. Is this a reasonable way to decide how much water you need?
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stymingersfink
Sep 8, 2005, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: Hey Curt. Pete was hitting on minors in here? Sending them PM's? Here's a question for a Dr Piton. Has anyone ever used a 6 mil with a 9 mil climbing rope to reppel on? What was the outcome? For alpine climbing. Can you double up a 6mil and reppel on it alone? 7mil assesory cord? 8 mil assesory card? More of a alpine question. Is 15 quickdraws and 20 free biners enough for A4? A5? How many screamers do you carry? Where do you use them? Do you carry more quickdraws or more biners? How often do you equalize placements when climbing A4....A5. Is it pretty common practice. Can a person solo Elcap in a push in 48 hours without bonking? What strategies do you use to keep from BONKING while doing El Cap in a push? I try to think of how much water i need per a pitch not how much water i need per a day. Like 1 quart per a pitch climbed that day. Is this a reasonable way to decide how much water you need?
i'm NOT dr. piton, but I'll give it a shot.
In reply to: Can you double up a 6mil and reppel on it alone? 7mil assesory cord? 8 mil assesory card? More of a alpine question.
1. a. 6/9 rapping. I would single line rap the 9mm cord, using a 'biner block and utilizing the 6mm as a pull cord. The 6mm cord would be threaded through my belay device so I would not lose it in the wind, though I would not put tension on it with my brake hand.
b. Esprit ropes out of Canada makes a 6mm "Bone Dry" static line. I believe they categorized it as an Expeditionary Escape Rope. It is designed to be carried on longer alpine climbs, where one may need to back off quickly. I would probably single-line rap this cord in an emergency if necessary, provided i could generate enough friction with my belay devices to control descent (extra biners, biner wrap, etc.).
c. Most ski patrollers in this area carry 5 or 6mm accessory cord to double up for rappelling out of tight spots. They will typically use once then destroy. Would I rap more than a single pitch using such small cord? Probably not, unless the other option was to die a freezing death, in which case I have set myself up for a nasty epic.
d. 7mm and larger accessory cord as an Alpine emergency rap cord? I'd feel better about rapping on the larger sizes, but accessory cord is typically not a dry treated rope, so see item 1b above for a better option. Once you start getting into the 8mm size, I'll use one of my old dry-treated Iceline's over accessory cord any day.
In reply to: Is 15 quickdraws and 20 free biners enough for A4? A5? How many screamers do you carry? Where do you use them?
2. a. Um, no. You'll need a shipoopi-load more gear to get up to that A4/5 pitch. Once you get there, you're probably looking at lots of c-heads, hooks and head scratching trying to figure out what the heck you're going to do next. There probably won't BE gear to clip behind you, so 20 free biners is probably enough for this pitch, but then again, who knows till you're up there?
b. 6-8 scream-aids, 2-3 Zipper screamers.
c. The scream-aids are for marginal placements such as small wires and other assorted crap that will hold at least 300 lbs, but probably not more than 1500lbs. The scream-aid sling fails at approx 1800lbs(according to yates). The Zipper screamers are usually utilised on the first good piece off the anchor, or off the anchor itself if there's nothing good for a fair bit. One may be saved for the last good piece before a bunch of hooking/heading too if you're thinking that far head.
In reply to: Do you carry more quickdraws or more biners?
3. Aid climbing I will always carry more biners than quickdraws for the simple fact that i carry no quickdraws while aid climbing. If I need to extend a placement, I will do so with one of the assortment of slings carried off the back of my chest harness. Free biners? 50 is a bare minimum, 65-70 usually feels pretty good. Some may carry as many as 100.
In reply to: How often do you equalize placements when climbing A4....A5. Is it pretty common practice?
4. Equalizing placements on A4/5? Well, if all i could get were a couple of #1 c-heads, then they would have to be equalized. Equalized hooks? Heard of it being done, but i've never done it myself. Other than that, what's going to hold in the event of a fall? By definition, probably nothing. In the event I do come across a couple of good placements in the middle of a field of crap, of course I'll make a mini equalized anchor out of it. Wouldn't you?
In reply to: Can a person solo Elcap in a push in 48 hours without bonking? What strategies do you use to keep from BONKING while doing El Cap in a push?
5. a. Didn't Potter solo the nose+hd in <24 hrs? Maybe Ammon can answer this one for you.
b. I don't climb El Cap in a push, but on other climbs keeping tabs on my hydration and caloric intake helps prevent the bonk. Being physically fit helps too.
In reply to: I try to think of how much water i need per a pitch not how much water i need per a day. Like 1 quart per a pitch climbed that day. Is this a reasonable way to decide how much water you need?
6. Seems reasonable to me, as long as you can hit your target number of pitches for the day. In my book it all comes down to the same quantity really. Some pitches might take you an hour, during which you might only drink 1 pint of water. The next pitch taking 4 hours might result in your consumption of the left over water from the previous pitch, the entire quart budgeted for the pitch you're on, plus a sip or two from the next pitchs' water ration.
I prefer to think in climbing days. Some days i'll budget 4-5 pitches of relatively easy climbing, some days i'll budget 2-3 pitches of more difficult climbing. I would probably use the same ammount of water for these two days, everything else being equal. What works for you?
Well, how'd I do? Any more questions? Clarifications?
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jt512
Sep 8, 2005, 6:57 PM
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In reply to: Well, how'd I do?
You were royally trolled.
-Jay
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hford
Sep 8, 2005, 7:20 PM
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excellent
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atg200
Sep 8, 2005, 7:50 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Well, how'd I do? You were royally trolled. -Jay
he may have been, but that was also a terrific post. certainly better info and material for discussion than i have seen here in awhile. most definitely better than the vapid little remark you just felt obligated to make.
that 6mm/9mm suggestion in particular was a very good one that i have mentally filed away. cheers stymingersfink.
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philbox
Moderator
Sep 8, 2005, 9:54 PM
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stymingersfink has done such an exceptionally good job of answering that series of questions that I have split off the relevant posts and given them their very own thread. Gold trophy for you stymingersfink, well done.
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climbhigher
Sep 9, 2005, 3:12 AM
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Thanks for answering my questions. I got some beta from it. I have seen those Espirit ropes. The rope felt like a cable, but are super light and no way it could get water logged. It's sick when you get to the top of something and your partner pulls out the 6mm cord still factory coiled and says "Ok, time to go down now" with a shit eating grin on his face.
didn't Ammon McNeeley Bonk super hard soloing Eagles Way? He told me he was so spent he slept with his face plasterd to a urine stained ledge unable to move. Friggin Hard Core!!! It just makes me want to go suffer.
And Hans Florine looked pretty spent after he soloed the Nose in record time. Pretty impressive. Go check out his speed climbing page and see the video.
Dean is just super fit. and a Mutant. I like how he says you gotta stay in your bubble and not let the exposure get to you.
Plus, It seems like Ammon is not scared to whip when he does speed sends . Seems like he takes one big whip on every send. How does he not get hurt when he falls? I am guessing he has everything super organized on his rack and is very aware of his body position at all times?
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climbhigher
Sep 9, 2005, 3:17 AM
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OH yeah, Phil..or whoever you are? Why are u trying to make a example of me? This Aid climbing Forum is for Beginners, Intermediates, and advance climbers. But, In my humble opinion i think aid climbing is a more of an advance way to make it up the rock.
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climbhigher
Sep 9, 2005, 3:59 AM
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Still don't get what's behind your motives? You could probably be much more professional about it. If i sound like a smartass, I am not being one.
When i asked all those questions, That's exactally what i was trying to do get things moving again.
I consider myself a serious climber.
Anyways, It's 10:00 pm and i gotta climb tomorrow. After the 10 hour work day, of course.
CHEERS.
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philbox
Moderator
Sep 9, 2005, 4:54 AM
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In reply to: Still don't get what's behind your motives? You could probably be much more professional about it. If i sound like a smartass, I am not being one. When i asked all those questions, That's exactally what i was trying to do get things moving again. I consider myself a serious climber. Anyways, It's 10:00 pm and i gotta climb tomorrow. After the 10 hour work day, of course. CHEERS.
Nope, no sinister motives at all and no you are not coming across as a smartass.
I saw in the original thread some brilliant questions and equally brilliant answers that deserved their own thread thusly we now see these posts reside in their own thread.
As for me being professional about it, heaven forbid that I should ever become professional about anything. :wink: :lol:
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climbhigher
Sep 10, 2005, 10:06 PM
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Ok, Whatever....going climbing now!!! Got 9 hours of work today. I just might make it to the Valley this October.
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climbhigher
Sep 11, 2005, 9:26 PM
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Ok, I am done climbing for today. So, I will mark some time.
Up above it says you need maybe up to 100 free biners for A4/A5...this does not seem logical.
You figure one pitch is 200 feet max in length. If you make a placement once every say 5 feet, which you would be doing if you are ready to soil your bigwall boxers, that's 40 placements. That means you need at least 40 biners. If you bring 20 quickdraws (or Screamers) that leaves you with a minimum of 20 biners needed. And if you bring 8 shoulder lengh slings with two biners on each one that would be 16 biners plus the 20 quickdraws. That's enough for 36 placements. That means you need 8 more biners and that's if you use two biners clip togther for each placement. Now, If you happend to place a few aliens on the way and don't have to extend the placement because of rope drag this will lower your biner count. For the belay, 2 or 3 lockers may be needed and maybe 5 biners max. So, what i am saying is, if you keep everything organized which you better be doing if your climbing A4 and A5 you don't need 80 or 100 biners. This is important because its the difference of making that weight only placement stick or not stick.
This issue of bringing tons of gear for El Cap routes is hard to get away from because EL Cap is sooo damn big!!! and is sooo damn intimadating that your like...I am goinng to bring every damn cam i have!
When you look up at El Cap, you are not doing one long lead up that 3000 foot face. You are doing 20 or 30 or so leads of 200 feet and less. You only need enough gear to make it 200 feet max and then you get all you gear back. This is extremely important when you are doing lots of free climbing up there as i found out the hard way.
Ok....Off Topic...
This kind of thinking is also important while climbing. Don't focus on El Cap instead focus on the pitch you are on or about to do. After you send that pitch, focus on the next pitch you are on.....don't focus on that bivy or the top...keep focusing on making it to that next belay. Worrying or thinking about that super hard pitch half way up the route is a waste of energy. You wouldn't be up there if you didn't think you could do it some how. So keep climbing...and before you know it you will send.
Think Light be Light.....even Levitate if you have to. Levitate with you mind and your body or maybe even your ass will follow.
Wish me luck on my first A4 pitch on The Big STONE!!! Hope i bring enough biners!!!!!!
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enjoimx
Sep 11, 2005, 9:42 PM
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Climbhigher...Good luck man!
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lambone
Sep 12, 2005, 6:22 AM
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I ussualy cary about 30 biners when soloing an aid pitch, plus 10 or so draws and free slings. I allways end up need ing one or two more at the belay no matter how many I have.
Not bonking is pretty easy, bring some good grub and stop and eat it. I load up my pockets with bars and gu and chug them periodically. 1 quart of water per pitch is about right if it is hot. Bring a couple of packs of smokes too...
have fun!
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skinner
Sep 12, 2005, 8:02 AM
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In reply to: I always end up needing one or two more at the belay no matter how many I have.
In reply to: Bring a couple of packs of smokes too... |
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dangle
Sep 12, 2005, 2:46 PM
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Never carried 100 freebies but I have carried 80 and was glad. Don't forget that you have to rig two belays at once, and walls ALWAYS use more biners than "theory" allows for.
At least it seems that way from the few I've managed to succeed on.
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dangle
Sep 12, 2005, 8:24 PM
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In reply to: didn't Ammon McNeeley Bonk super hard soloing Eagles Way? He told me he was so spent he slept with his face plasterd to a urine stained ledge unable to move. Friggin Hard Core!!! It just makes me want to go suffer.
Personally I think it takes a lot of courage to admit to either. If it was me I would have kept my mouth shut.
climbhigher, I don't think it would be too hard to find someone to accomodate you. Just go to the bottom of your nearest crowded crag and with the proper shout you should get pissed on, but like I said keep your mouth shut.
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imnotclever
Sep 13, 2005, 12:40 PM
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In reply to: didn't Ammon McNeeley Bonk super hard soloing Eagles Way? He told me he was so spent he slept with his face plasterd to a urine stained ledge unable to move. Friggin Hard Core!!! It just makes me want to go suffer.
Ammon's story. And check out some of the other ones while you're there.
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crotch
Sep 13, 2005, 1:27 PM
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You ALWAYS need more biners than you have. You'll use at least 20 bivying, and you won't get all those biners back for the lead the next morning.
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epic_ed
Sep 14, 2005, 5:50 AM
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For the multi-day stuff, I bring along 20 "toy" biners for the belay and bivy. Hang all your random bags and trinkets with these and keep the full-strength biners for your safety system. Or, fuck with your partner by clipping the toy biners to pro you know doesn't have a chance in hell of holding a fall. You gotta have a sense of humor...
Ed
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lambone
Sep 14, 2005, 5:54 AM
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20 toy biners :roll:
extra crap.
no offense ed, but leave the extra crap behind and you'll have less weight pulling you back down to the ground. :wink:
would be funny for freaking someone out though!
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dangle
Sep 14, 2005, 6:59 AM
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20 sounds a bit much but I like Ed's idea as far as dedicated "toys" for day packs, personal kits, bolt bag, boom box etc. where they would normally eat freebies from the system.
When I put up desert walls I carry a large supply of baby angles on a sort of giant safety pin used in SCUBA for sliding through the gills of the fish you spear. Same size so big bunch doesn't matter and weighs far less than the biners it would otherwise require.
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epic_ed
Sep 14, 2005, 1:17 PM
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Boney, they're lighter than taking along an extra 10 regular biners to make sure I have enough at the bivy. On the multi-day stuff, that weight is a drop in the bucket, anyways. And I certainly don't take them for the push & blast routes. Hey...it works for me.
Ed
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lambone
Sep 14, 2005, 7:41 PM
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do you ever ind yourself wishing you had real biners up there instead of fake ones?
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epic_ed
Sep 14, 2005, 9:11 PM
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No, it solves the problem for me. I always have enough biners during the climbing, but it's on the ledge at bivy time that I used to waste time and energy scrounging around the anchor and rack to find "spare" biners to hang stuff while vertical camping. Now I leave my rack at the anchor sorted and ready to go for the next morning, and then just dig into my supply of toy biners (clipped into the internal loops of the haul bag) when ever I need to clip in the stove, the sleeping bag, the pad, the food bag, the gloves, the brain bucket, the jacket, the stogies, the 1st aid kit...and all the other shit that comes out of the haul bag during the bivy.
The key for making this work, IMO, is to make sure you keep the rack sorted and ready to go for the next morning, and then the toys go back into the haul bag.
Ed
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euroford
Sep 14, 2005, 9:37 PM
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now that you describe it that way, this actually sounds like a great idea.
though i think i would want to take all of the toy biners and spray them dayglow orange or something to make sure they don't get mixed up into stuff they arn't supposed to.
edit: does anybody know of a 'toy' biner that is at least specifcly rated for a couple hundred pounds maybe?
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areuinclimber
Sep 14, 2005, 9:41 PM
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thats a pretty good idea. but that means that i have to go out and spend $3 a biner for those damn things.
when i am bivying i just use the free biners that i used through out the day to clip shit in. the one thing i always run out of are lockers.
i carry my biners in groups and dont have any assembled draws. i just have 24 2' slings (12 on each biner). my wall system is pretty unefficient right now though.
what do you guys (epic-ed, lambone... etc.) do in the morning. do you leave your ledge out and take care of all that stuff after the next pitch is led or do you pack everything up and organize your stuff for the day, and then climb the next pitch?
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epic_ed
Sep 14, 2005, 10:18 PM
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Check eBay -- they frequently have auctions for large lots of them. I bought a lot of 22 toy biner for $14 earlier this year. After shipping it was still much less than $1-per-biner.
As for breaking down camp:
- If soloing -- I like to get camp torn down and then lead. That way I don't have a comfy bivy to return to when I've lead the next pitch and have no excuse to hang around. If not, then it's tempting to sit in the ledge a while, grab lunch, spank the monkey...what ever. There are exceptions -- a leisure day where you only have a one-pitch goal, weather looks iffy and you'd benefit from a place to take shelter if the shit hits the fan, etc.
- If with a partner -- Leader cleans up personal gear and gets moving. Second climber tears down the bivy and packs the haul bags.
Ed
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lambone
Sep 15, 2005, 4:54 AM
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areyouin...
I like to fix the next pitch in the eveing so that all is required in the morning is packing up and taking off up the ropes. I'll even do one mor epitch in the dar and let my bud set up the bivi, cause I like leading in the dark (unless free climbing or weird rouefinding is involved).
Or if that is not possible...I'll still pack everything up except for the ledge before taking off in the morning. I think packing up seems easier when two guys work on it together. Soloing i'll pack it all up first also. I save the ledge for last cause it's nice to hang out on, flaging it is awesome on steep stuff too.
Ed' you'll have to test your biner method out for more then one night at a time and let me know how it goes... :wink: just pullin' your leg man...
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epic_ed
Sep 15, 2005, 6:11 AM
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No, no...it's true. Two nights is my max, so far. Full disclosure here -- no hiding from the facts. Plenty of single nights, though. :roll: I count the ones where I'm sleeping on the porch because me and da missus got in a fight.
Ed
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lambone
Sep 15, 2005, 6:22 AM
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ha that's classic...do you really get sent off to the Portaledge instead of the couch!? LOL
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clausti
Sep 15, 2005, 7:14 AM
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In reply to: edit: does anybody know of a 'toy' biner that is at least specifcly rated for a couple hundred pounds maybe?
it depends on where you buy them. sometimes hardwear stores have them rated to 150 lbs.
my buddy jeff [~135 lbs] took *repeated* whips on one of the 150 biners, up to 15-17ish feet and never did manage to break any.
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jt512
Sep 15, 2005, 7:21 PM
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In reply to: my buddy jeff [~135 lbs] took *repeated* whips on one of the 150 biners, up to 15-17ish feet and never did manage to break any.
Was there some reason to think that he was safe doing this? Any lead fall taken by a 135-lb climber would load the carabiner in excess 150 lbf.
-Jay
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mikeehartley
Sep 15, 2005, 7:55 PM
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I second the toy biner usage. I've been using them for a couple of years and, though I've never weighed it, I think they may even save me weight. Almost everything clipped to the daisy in the pig hangs on one. I'll even occassionally use them for RP's and such on the rack. And, as Ed mentioned, not having to scavenge the rack while at the bivy helps with organization.
Being able to mess with your partner's head is something I've never considered but now it makes them priceless.
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dangle
Sep 16, 2005, 6:20 AM
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I wonder if anyone here stopped to consider that if back in the 60s someone had shown Raffi Bedayn a "Helium" 'biner that HE would think it was a toy...
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smithclimber
Sep 16, 2005, 7:29 AM
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In reply to: clip in the stove... the pad... the stogies...and all the other s--- that comes out of the haul bag during the bivy. Ed
Crikey Ed... and you're concerned about the difference of a few ounces between 10 wiregates and your 10 toy biners? :roll:
Just an idea, but maybe things would be lighter if you ashewed such lavishness rather than counting the grams of those biners.
Don't get me wrong Ed, I understand your point... it's just sort of like a hiker going to the trouble of sawing off their toothbrush handle while they choose to bring a hard backed book for their "light reading".
Know whut I mean, Vern? :wink:
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t-dog
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Sep 16, 2005, 8:56 AM
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In reply to: Was there some reason to think that he was safe doing this?
why not? If you're on a closely bolted sport climb and you've got a good draw below it, I don't see what harm a fun little physics experiment could do!! I know next time I'm at Echo Cliffs, I just might have to bring one of those up with me to see what it takes to break'em and what it's like to have pro blow on you!!!
Plus, those teeny biners always seem to hold way more than they claim, I've setup many hammocks with them that have held 2/3/4 people for what it's worth....
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epic_ed
Sep 16, 2005, 1:05 PM
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Damn, Wes! Where have you been? Good to hear from you -- it's been a while.
As for the biners, an extra 10-20 ultra light-weight biners like the Camp Nano may be a much better way to go, but they would cost quite a bit more than than toys. I think I enjoy the convenience factor better than the weight savings. Once I'm on the ledge there is no need for me to have to go back up to the anchor or where ever I have the rack to scrounge for more biners. And there's no deconstructing the bivy that I have to wait aound for to retrieve the biners if I want to (have to?) take off on lead right after waking up.
Like I said, it works for me. YMMV.
Ed
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clausti
Sep 16, 2005, 2:04 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: my buddy jeff [~135 lbs] took *repeated* whips on one of the 150 biners, up to 15-17ish feet and never did manage to break any. Was there some reason to think that he was safe doing this? Any lead fall taken by a 135-lb climber would load the carabiner in excess 150 lbf. -Jay
OK, from what i understand this is how he had it set up...
1] he was in a gym, that has an steep lead wall to an arch that goes all the way across the roof.
2] they took a normal quickdraw, and clipped the toy biner through the rope side. so you have normal biner, dogbone, toy.
3] they clipped *both* that modified draw, and a normal draw to a bolt.
4] he clipped the rope into both draws, climbed past it on the roof, and took falls.
because the toy biner was shorter than the normal biner, when they were both hanging from the bolt it would load the toy biner first.
thus, if the toy biner busted, the catch point in the rope would drop an inch or so, then be on the real quickdraw.
adding a picture...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=61222
it'll show up whenever its approved and be a bit more clear.
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euroford
Sep 16, 2005, 3:37 PM
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LOL, what we have here is a bunch of aid climbers critiquing the safety practices of indoor sport climbing. :D
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stymingersfink
Sep 17, 2005, 10:36 PM
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In reply to: Up above it says you need maybe up to 100 free biners for A4/A5...this does not seem logical.
Well, I was merely mentioning the upper end of a ball park figure for an entire route. If you noticed, I mentioned that your 20 free biners might be more than enough for that A4/5 pitch. It's the getting there that may require more biners!
I took only 60 free ovals on my last wall... it seemed that I was constantly scrounging biners from where ever I could find them. Since then I've picked up a few more wire-gate ovals. I should have about 75 free biners for next weeks climb. The less agressively you back-clean, the more biners you will need. Couple things to keep in mind however: Don't clip the copperheads, cause if you fall and they zipper you'll just have to spend the rest of the day re-placing them. Cam hooks are NOT supposed to be fixed (even on the Zodiac). Taping hooks on the wall is the biggest BS psychological-pro i've heard of.
If you would like to see for yourself just how many biners it will take for an A4/5 pitch without committing to an entire route, may I respectfully suggest you try some of the routes Eric Kohl put up on the SE side of El Cap? He has established several climbs beginning with A4 pitches off the ground (insanity if you ask me). You can spend an entire week climbing A4, and never be more than 200' off the deck.
But ask yourself this...
Where would you rather zipper an entire pitch? 500' off the ground, where a 200' whip would leave you dangling in space, or 80' off the ground where any mistake results in a crater?
To answer your original question, is 20 biners enough for an A4/5 pitch?
Yes! Twenty is in fact more than enough, provided the only thing you clip is the chicken rivit some weak-kneed lilly-livered latter-day-sack-of-sh!t added mid-way through the pitch.
Using this logic you should get to the top of an A4/5 pitch with at least 19 extra 'biners. Right? :lol:
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stymingersfink
Sep 17, 2005, 10:52 PM
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Couple of things to keep in mind about the whole toy biner thing mentioned abover.
First of all, without having a rigorous QA program, the variation in breaking strengths of "toy" biners will be all over the map. Some will break at ridiculously low values, others incredibly high.
Diameter of the biner itself. Shock loading a rope over such a small diameter surface will damage your rope more than you'd like to think about. True, most ropes are sharp-edge tested, but repeatedly subjecting your rope such conditions will wear it pre-maturely. Why would anyone do this?
Toy biners are cheap and easy to replace. Some years ago, before I began to understand the physics involved in fall forces, I thought a "toy" biner would make a great load-limiting device. Would someone else care to explain why this is not so?
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lambone
Sep 18, 2005, 8:04 AM
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because you fall onto it, your rope stretches, then it breaks sending you on to the real biner with a more static rope.
75 or 100 biners is way overkill IMHO. you must carry a monster rack...
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stymingersfink
Sep 19, 2005, 11:32 PM
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Personally, I would say 80-100 free biners IS overkill, but perhaps for someone who backcleans nothing or fumbles gear frequently this would be necessary. As stated earlier in the thread, it is a ballpark figure. (i'm also a gear pimp!)
Unless I'm soloing I tend to do a lot of short fixing, which means a portion of gear is unavailable to me at the beginning of the next pitch. To facilitate getting moving while the 2nd is still cleaning, I carry a few extra biners and rarely leave a cam behind. Once they arrive at the belay, they will tag me whatever gear I'm deficient, feed me the remainder of the lead line, then begin hauling.
Or maybe it's just because I got tired of scrounging for 'biners. I can carry nearly 20 more wiregate ovals without paying a penalty for the weight (over carrying standard ovals). So I do. For a total of 70 free ovals. Funny thing is, the farther up the stone I get, the fewer free biners i seem to have.
^^^:wtf:^^^ :?:
Monster Rack? In addition to personal gear, I would consider my standard wall rack to include:
2x hybrid aliens blue/black thru yellow/red
2x aliens blue-red
2x Camalots .5-6 (larger un-needed cams may be left on the ground)
2x peckers sizes 1-3
2x hooks (talon, cliffhanger, skyhook)
3 Leeper cam hooks (1 ea narrow, med, wide)
2x micro/offset nuts
1.5-2x BD stoppers
10-12 cinch rivit hangers
assortment of copperheads + punch kit
50-70 free biners
6-8 lockers
8-10 60cm slings
6-8 30cm slings
6-8 screamers (various)
10-12 tie-off slings
2x anchor kits (each one contains 2x120cm slings, 1xdaisy chain, 1 large locker, 1 small locker)
My rack may be smaller and lighter than most, as it includes only thin iron. I've yet to find myself in a situation where upwards progress is dependent on me pounding a LA or angle into a crack. Often something else will work, even it it means stepping up to a longer runout on questionable placements.
As far as the toy-biner limiters go, don't forget it's also a function of the time element. Spreading the force out over as long a period as possible limits maximum impact forces.
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clausti
Sep 20, 2005, 3:16 AM
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In reply to: because you fall onto it, your rope stretches, then it breaks sending you on to the real biner with a more static rope.
not if you're giving a soft catch. i suppose it would if you're anchored and just locked off.
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atg200
Sep 20, 2005, 2:13 PM
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how are you going to give a soft catch with a grigri when you are fast asleep on the portaledge 5 hours into your partners lead?
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epic_ed
Sep 20, 2005, 4:31 PM
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Yet another trophy for Andy. Clausti, there are some things that are just different between the sport climbing world and aid. I only get a soft catch when a screamer deploys.
Ed
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lambone
Sep 20, 2005, 7:45 PM
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it could probably be considered a soft catch when four or five of your pieces blow before you stop... :lol:
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clausti
Sep 21, 2005, 3:42 AM
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ok correct me if i'm wrong, but you can still give a soft catch through an ATC if you're anchored, right? in theory?
by like, letting out a little more extra rope as they start to hit the fall?
that being said i've never done it. i jump when necc, or i let myself get pulled off the ground for some pretty effective soft catches.
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lambone
Sep 21, 2005, 3:49 AM
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In reply to: by like, letting out a little more extra rope as they start to hit the fall?
theoretically yes, because more rope=more stretch=softer catch. However, just a few feet extra isn't going to make a huge difference.
It WILL however help to reduce the pendulum effect of the falling leader, which could save an ankle.
Actually an ATC in itself provides a bit more of a "softer" catch then a Gri-Gri by nature becauce there is a bit of rope slippage during the catch, whereas the Gri-Gri is almost completely static.
In reply to: that being said i've never done it. i jump when necc, or i let myself get pulled off the ground for some pretty effective soft catches.
that's the best method. The key element however with the jump technique (especially with questionable gear) is not to jump too early. Jump to early and what you have is two falling climbers onto one piece of pro rather then a climber and belayer.
This is definately not aidclimber talk. However the same principles can apply in a hairy situation up on the wall.
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clausti
Sep 21, 2005, 4:29 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: that being said i've never done it. i jump when necc, or i let myself get pulled off the ground for some pretty effective soft catches. that's the best method. The key element however with the jump technique (especially with questionable gear) is not to jump too early. Jump to early and what you have is two falling climbers onto one piece of pro rather then a climber and belayer.
usually you can feel right when they start to hit it and you need to jump though.
In reply to: This is definately not aidclimber talk. However the same principles can apply in a hairy situation up on the wall.
but wouldnt it be *especially* profitable for an aid climber to know how to give a softer catch? if it came down to that? or is not even your anchor fall-rated? just body weight?
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jt512
Sep 21, 2005, 6:21 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: by like, letting out a little more extra rope as they start to hit the fall? theoretically yes, because more rope=more stretch=softer catch. However, just a few feet extra isn't going to make a huge difference. It WILL however help to reduce the pendulum effect of the falling leader, which could save an ankle.
Lambone, she's talking about giving a dynamic belay by intentionally letting rope slide through the ATC, rather than just locking it off. You're talking about slack. Not the same.
In reply to: Actually an ATC in itself provides a bit more of a "softer" catch then a Gri-Gri by nature becauce there is a bit of rope slippage during the catch, whereas the Gri-Gri is almost completely static.
And a skilled belayer can vary the amount of rope that slips through, which is what clausti is talking about doing.
In reply to: In reply to: that being said i've never done it. i jump when necc, or i let myself get pulled off the ground for some pretty effective soft catches. that's the best method.
Jumping is not even remotely the best method to give a dynamic belay using an ATC. In the hands of skilled belayer, letting rope slip through is the better approach because the belayer has far greater control over just how dynamic a catch he gives. Not to mention that the technique can be used in situations that a jump can't, such as at a hanging belay.
-Jay
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lambone
Sep 21, 2005, 8:05 AM
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ok mr skilled belayer. :roll:
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atg200
Sep 21, 2005, 12:51 PM
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In reply to: but wouldnt it be *especially* profitable for an aid climber to know how to give a softer catch? if it came down to that? or is not even your anchor fall-rated? just body weight?
not really. the benefits of a softer catch in not blowing gear are way overrated in my experience. i've taken wingers onto ancient bent knifeblades and tiny aliens in mud in the fisher towers, and they have held fine with a static catch. better to use screamers to reduce impact forces.
i would much prefer to be belayed with a grigri mostly because hard aid just takes so damn long. realistically, my attention as a belayer starts to wander after a couple of hours. its also a much bigger benefit to be able to safely dig around in the haul bag for food, send up extra gear on the tag line, take a dump, or whatever then it is to give a sport climber compliant "soft catch".
aid anchors generally have to be very bomber to handle hauling. there are exceptions of course, but most competent aid climbs slam in a new fat bolt when faced with a 2 crappy bolt belay.
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dangle
Sep 21, 2005, 8:28 PM
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I must have an underdeveloped sense of humor. Could someone please explain to me why trolling is so entertaining. Are people so bored with themselves that that they actually LIKE to waste OTHER people's time? Does that somehow seem to make THEIR lives more valuable?
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climbhigher
Sep 22, 2005, 4:19 AM
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Who back cleans when they lead A4/A5? I guess it all comes down to get by with what you got or bail.............
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pmyche
Sep 22, 2005, 9:54 PM
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In reply to: Who back cleans when they lead A4/A5?
Unless it's a fifty-foot pitch or packing a goon biner rack or unless one loves chiseling out deadheads and/or drilling rivets, probably everyone on that terrain.
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climbhigher
Sep 23, 2005, 1:05 AM
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Dangle, Nobody is trolling here.
I see. So you don't clip the heads, when you lead A4/A5. Does A5 mean there's no heads and no rivets and nothing is modifyed? Otherwise, It's A4?
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lambone
Sep 23, 2005, 6:38 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Who back cleans when they lead A4/A5? Unless it's a fifty-foot pitch or packing a goon biner rack or unless one loves chiseling out deadheads and/or drilling rivets, probably everyone on that terrain.
can you explain your post pmyche? I'm confused. why would backcleaning prevent you from chiseling or drilling?
man if the gear is sketchy and it's looking like bad fall territory (which I assume most A4/A5 is) I'd be clipping every damn peice.
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atg200
Sep 23, 2005, 12:58 PM
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because its no fun to replace blown rivets and chisel out deadheads when you rip them in a fall.
i don't bother clipping a lot of the mank desert bolts on tower routes because i don't want to have to replace them if they blow in a fall.
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climbhigher
Sep 23, 2005, 3:12 PM
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I am with Lambone. Once you start climbing at that level. Replacing Heads should be no big deal. And if you are only climing a few pitches a day time should not be a problem removing dead heads.
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pmyche
Sep 23, 2005, 3:19 PM
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Thanks for clarifying, atg.
Depending on the situation, I'd usually rather take extra air than deal with a ripped section of mank. If you clip everything all the time, you darn well better carry a bolt kit and other tools (and hundreds of biners).
Climbhigher, Some heads are good and are worth clipping. There's no clear definition of what gear might be found on a given pitch rating. It could be anything from hood ornaments to cafeteria spoons to cracked Leeper hangers to good heads/pins. And the rating system is far too simplistic and subjective to clearly delineate A-this from A-that.
PS: You could spend hours trying to replace a mank section and still have to place rivets where deadheads, pins with broken eyes or cables are not cleanable or not cleanable without excessive rock damage. Replacing heads "should" be no big deal, but it can be a very big deal when you can't remove welded deadheads and have to drill a bunch of rivets or trenched heads because you blindly clipped a bunch of junk that wouldn't hold a fall. Major, avoidable impact on the route and the rock. If you're going up with the intent to replace mank gear (read: with proper tools, materials, experience and time), that's a different situation.
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lambone
Sep 23, 2005, 7:24 PM
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I think the type of fall involved is the key factor in what we are discussing now.
If it looked like I could hit something in a fall, I wouldn't be worried about replacing heads or rivets. I'd be clipping them hoping one saves my ass. I'd be mucch more worried about trying to Self Rescue halfway up El Cap then dealing with deadheads or new rivets.
I though that if it was not dangerous fall potential then it wasn't A4???
So if we are talking about clean falls with no consequences then it doesn't really address the original question:
In reply to: Who back cleans when they lead A4/A5?
which goes back to the original orginal question of In reply to: how many biners should you carry? |
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pmyche
Sep 23, 2005, 8:18 PM
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I agree with your m.o. in that scenario, Lambone.
I'm not going to debate when A-this becomes A-that. It's a baseless debate because it's "based" on how far the fall would be or if there is injury or death (read: theorizing or guessing). I'll just say that if a person clips every piece without assessing the merit or detriment of doing so, he's missing a critical part of rigging a harder aid pitch. You obviously know better.
If you blow it just right, you could die or be maimed on A-easy. Should we upgrade that pitch to A5? Or you could backclean your way up A-sick right to the anchor. It's all A1 'til you fall, right? Uh, wait, I'm not debating this...
PS: How many biners? It depends. How many scarfable biners are on the rack? How long is the pitch? How much hooking is on it? Where is the good pro? Where are the protrusions? Loose rock? How much decent/poor fixed pro? What's my competence level? Am I soloing? Does it traverse? On and on. That's what I mean by "assessing." There is no end to combinations of qualities/situations on a pitch, and we make spontaneous decisions--based on our assessment--about how to best rig it.
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lambone
Sep 23, 2005, 8:54 PM
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Yeah, I won't get into the ratings either. I am basically just going with what the Supertacos says. Seems like the majority of A4 pitches in the book have some sort of fall concequence other then clean air.
I saw a buddy take a bad fall on a mixed ice climb up in Montana...he spent like an hour putting in all kinds of natural gear, tied off blades, tipped out shorty screws, slung icecicles...etc. Anyway about 30ft up he pitched, caught a crampon and wen't back head first. He ripped about 8 peices (yeah, 8 pieces for 30ft of climbing) and landed on the back of his neck upsideown.
Those pieces slowed him down enough that he's not in a wheelchair now. After seeing that I clip everything if there is any chance of hitting anything, because one piece could make a difference.
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pmyche
Sep 23, 2005, 9:21 PM
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In reply to: ...Seems like...could...
Now we're talkin' aid ratings...The only thing definitive is the uncertainty!
= ]
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climbhigher
Sep 24, 2005, 12:16 AM
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Hey Pmyche, How much A4/A5 have you done? Or are you just talking out of your ass?
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climbhigher
Sep 24, 2005, 12:23 AM
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hey, Pycmhe. You forgot the Phantom fear factor. The fear you get when there's no reason to fear anything. Like when you rope jump off something and it's factor 1 and you are not going to hit anything or get hurt, but you are still extremely scared because you are going to log a couple hundered feet of air time. How do you cure this phantom fear thing?
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pmyche
Sep 24, 2005, 3:58 PM
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In reply to: Hey Pmyche, How much A4/A5 have you done? Or are you just talking out of your ass?
Oopsie, busted... Okay, I don't even own any aid gear, nor have I ever done any aid climbing outside of grabbing the bolt hanger on Run for Your Life. Aw, well, fun while it lasted. Have a nice day. :D
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lambone
Sep 24, 2005, 6:13 PM
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In reply to: Hey Pmyche, How much A4/A5 have you done? Or are you just talking out of your ass?
ha...you'd never get pmyche to spew about his routes unless you emailed him asking for honest beta.
so, let me verify, pmyche on a A4 route (pic from another popular climbing site)
notice the angle of the aiders dangleing, this should give you a hint about which route.
http://www.supertopo.com/...500/ybelsout_p1a.jpg
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climbhigher
Sep 25, 2005, 4:47 AM
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Extremely funny. Could this be some route coming out of the Alcove?
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smithclimber
Sep 26, 2005, 6:52 AM
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In reply to: Extremely funny. Could this be some route coming out of the Alcove?
Space... or maybe South Seas?
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climbhigher
Sep 27, 2005, 12:16 AM
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It might be south seas. See how it goes up and right above the roof. Didn't realize South seas was that steep!!! Makes leaning tower look like a slab. how many A4 pitches does South Seas have? How hard are they relative to the rest of the climb?
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lambone
Sep 28, 2005, 6:22 AM
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yup south seas. 1 A4 picth as far as I know. But since pmych was soloing, you know he got it.
can't say on the grade myself but I have heard it's not too bad, and some of the A3 pitches on SS and PO are scarier.
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stymingersfink
Oct 19, 2005, 8:37 PM
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In reply to: Replacing Heads should be no big deal. And if you are only climing a few pitches a day time should not be a problem removing dead heads.
Why would you not leave the blob of wireless (or frayed/broken wires)copper in situ, and place a pecker into the top of it? I have used this techinique several times with complete confidence in the results. To date, they have held some pretty good bounce-tests. True, perhaps the blob will only support this type of work-around for a few more ascents, but would this not help to loosen the blob for removal?
Any thoughts...?
BTW, which is worse... 40' of A3R(X, I would add) horizontal hooking with severe consequences in the event of failure, :shock: or A4 on some severely overhanging chunk of rock?
I guess it's all A1, right? :lol:
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pmyche
Oct 19, 2005, 9:01 PM
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Hooking deadheads--great, clean solution, sty.
Skully took a hundred footer doing that on Mescalito. So, yes, it did work to loosen the deadhead. I beaked a deadcirclehead recently; can't believe that thing held bounces. Fun C1...hehe...
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climbhigher
Oct 22, 2005, 4:35 AM
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It also worked on the first A3 pitch off awahanee on Wet denim day Dream. I just hooked the deadhead with the point of the beak.
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