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lambone
Sep 23, 2005, 6:38 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Who back cleans when they lead A4/A5? Unless it's a fifty-foot pitch or packing a goon biner rack or unless one loves chiseling out deadheads and/or drilling rivets, probably everyone on that terrain.
can you explain your post pmyche? I'm confused. why would backcleaning prevent you from chiseling or drilling?
man if the gear is sketchy and it's looking like bad fall territory (which I assume most A4/A5 is) I'd be clipping every damn peice.
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atg200
Sep 23, 2005, 12:58 PM
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because its no fun to replace blown rivets and chisel out deadheads when you rip them in a fall.
i don't bother clipping a lot of the mank desert bolts on tower routes because i don't want to have to replace them if they blow in a fall.
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climbhigher
Sep 23, 2005, 3:12 PM
Post #128 of 144
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I am with Lambone. Once you start climbing at that level. Replacing Heads should be no big deal. And if you are only climing a few pitches a day time should not be a problem removing dead heads.
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pmyche
Sep 23, 2005, 3:19 PM
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Thanks for clarifying, atg.
Depending on the situation, I'd usually rather take extra air than deal with a ripped section of mank. If you clip everything all the time, you darn well better carry a bolt kit and other tools (and hundreds of biners).
Climbhigher, Some heads are good and are worth clipping. There's no clear definition of what gear might be found on a given pitch rating. It could be anything from hood ornaments to cafeteria spoons to cracked Leeper hangers to good heads/pins. And the rating system is far too simplistic and subjective to clearly delineate A-this from A-that.
PS: You could spend hours trying to replace a mank section and still have to place rivets where deadheads, pins with broken eyes or cables are not cleanable or not cleanable without excessive rock damage. Replacing heads "should" be no big deal, but it can be a very big deal when you can't remove welded deadheads and have to drill a bunch of rivets or trenched heads because you blindly clipped a bunch of junk that wouldn't hold a fall. Major, avoidable impact on the route and the rock. If you're going up with the intent to replace mank gear (read: with proper tools, materials, experience and time), that's a different situation.
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lambone
Sep 23, 2005, 7:24 PM
Post #130 of 144
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I think the type of fall involved is the key factor in what we are discussing now.
If it looked like I could hit something in a fall, I wouldn't be worried about replacing heads or rivets. I'd be clipping them hoping one saves my ass. I'd be mucch more worried about trying to Self Rescue halfway up El Cap then dealing with deadheads or new rivets.
I though that if it was not dangerous fall potential then it wasn't A4???
So if we are talking about clean falls with no consequences then it doesn't really address the original question:
In reply to: Who back cleans when they lead A4/A5?
which goes back to the original orginal question of In reply to: how many biners should you carry? |
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pmyche
Sep 23, 2005, 8:18 PM
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I agree with your m.o. in that scenario, Lambone.
I'm not going to debate when A-this becomes A-that. It's a baseless debate because it's "based" on how far the fall would be or if there is injury or death (read: theorizing or guessing). I'll just say that if a person clips every piece without assessing the merit or detriment of doing so, he's missing a critical part of rigging a harder aid pitch. You obviously know better.
If you blow it just right, you could die or be maimed on A-easy. Should we upgrade that pitch to A5? Or you could backclean your way up A-sick right to the anchor. It's all A1 'til you fall, right? Uh, wait, I'm not debating this...
PS: How many biners? It depends. How many scarfable biners are on the rack? How long is the pitch? How much hooking is on it? Where is the good pro? Where are the protrusions? Loose rock? How much decent/poor fixed pro? What's my competence level? Am I soloing? Does it traverse? On and on. That's what I mean by "assessing." There is no end to combinations of qualities/situations on a pitch, and we make spontaneous decisions--based on our assessment--about how to best rig it.
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lambone
Sep 23, 2005, 8:54 PM
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Yeah, I won't get into the ratings either. I am basically just going with what the Supertacos says. Seems like the majority of A4 pitches in the book have some sort of fall concequence other then clean air.
I saw a buddy take a bad fall on a mixed ice climb up in Montana...he spent like an hour putting in all kinds of natural gear, tied off blades, tipped out shorty screws, slung icecicles...etc. Anyway about 30ft up he pitched, caught a crampon and wen't back head first. He ripped about 8 peices (yeah, 8 pieces for 30ft of climbing) and landed on the back of his neck upsideown.
Those pieces slowed him down enough that he's not in a wheelchair now. After seeing that I clip everything if there is any chance of hitting anything, because one piece could make a difference.
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pmyche
Sep 23, 2005, 9:21 PM
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In reply to: ...Seems like...could...
Now we're talkin' aid ratings...The only thing definitive is the uncertainty!
= ]
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climbhigher
Sep 24, 2005, 12:16 AM
Post #134 of 144
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Hey Pmyche, How much A4/A5 have you done? Or are you just talking out of your ass?
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climbhigher
Sep 24, 2005, 12:23 AM
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hey, Pycmhe. You forgot the Phantom fear factor. The fear you get when there's no reason to fear anything. Like when you rope jump off something and it's factor 1 and you are not going to hit anything or get hurt, but you are still extremely scared because you are going to log a couple hundered feet of air time. How do you cure this phantom fear thing?
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pmyche
Sep 24, 2005, 3:58 PM
Post #136 of 144
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In reply to: Hey Pmyche, How much A4/A5 have you done? Or are you just talking out of your ass?
Oopsie, busted... Okay, I don't even own any aid gear, nor have I ever done any aid climbing outside of grabbing the bolt hanger on Run for Your Life. Aw, well, fun while it lasted. Have a nice day. :D
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lambone
Sep 24, 2005, 6:13 PM
Post #137 of 144
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In reply to: Hey Pmyche, How much A4/A5 have you done? Or are you just talking out of your ass?
ha...you'd never get pmyche to spew about his routes unless you emailed him asking for honest beta.
so, let me verify, pmyche on a A4 route (pic from another popular climbing site)
notice the angle of the aiders dangleing, this should give you a hint about which route.
http://www.supertopo.com/...500/ybelsout_p1a.jpg
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climbhigher
Sep 25, 2005, 4:47 AM
Post #138 of 144
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Extremely funny. Could this be some route coming out of the Alcove?
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smithclimber
Sep 26, 2005, 6:52 AM
Post #139 of 144
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In reply to: Extremely funny. Could this be some route coming out of the Alcove?
Space... or maybe South Seas?
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climbhigher
Sep 27, 2005, 12:16 AM
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It might be south seas. See how it goes up and right above the roof. Didn't realize South seas was that steep!!! Makes leaning tower look like a slab. how many A4 pitches does South Seas have? How hard are they relative to the rest of the climb?
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lambone
Sep 28, 2005, 6:22 AM
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yup south seas. 1 A4 picth as far as I know. But since pmych was soloing, you know he got it.
can't say on the grade myself but I have heard it's not too bad, and some of the A3 pitches on SS and PO are scarier.
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stymingersfink
Oct 19, 2005, 8:37 PM
Post #142 of 144
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In reply to: Replacing Heads should be no big deal. And if you are only climing a few pitches a day time should not be a problem removing dead heads.
Why would you not leave the blob of wireless (or frayed/broken wires)copper in situ, and place a pecker into the top of it? I have used this techinique several times with complete confidence in the results. To date, they have held some pretty good bounce-tests. True, perhaps the blob will only support this type of work-around for a few more ascents, but would this not help to loosen the blob for removal?
Any thoughts...?
BTW, which is worse... 40' of A3R(X, I would add) horizontal hooking with severe consequences in the event of failure, :shock: or A4 on some severely overhanging chunk of rock?
I guess it's all A1, right? :lol:
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pmyche
Oct 19, 2005, 9:01 PM
Post #143 of 144
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Hooking deadheads--great, clean solution, sty.
Skully took a hundred footer doing that on Mescalito. So, yes, it did work to loosen the deadhead. I beaked a deadcirclehead recently; can't believe that thing held bounces. Fun C1...hehe...
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climbhigher
Oct 22, 2005, 4:35 AM
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It also worked on the first A3 pitch off awahanee on Wet denim day Dream. I just hooked the deadhead with the point of the beak.
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