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one900johnnyk
Feb 22, 2006, 4:14 AM
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i may have missed this unanswered question during the first round but can someone please tell me WHY the dimpled cams were given the mark? clearly there was something changed in the process that made it useful for them to be marked but i never did hear what it was..... besides being fucked up of course. thanks!
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jsj42
Feb 22, 2006, 4:15 AM
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In reply to: For the past twenty years Dave has inspected every cam and put it in the shipping box personally
Then we can blame Dave for countless screwed up axle holes and swages. I have and use Aliens, and I love them, but what pisses me off (most) about this situation is the way they're handling it. I've seen post after post of individual climbers defending CCH, but the only thing I've seen from them is one post calling a failure report a hoax, a totally pathetic recall notice, and no explanation whatsoever of what they're doing to ensure that things will be different. Even if I COULD send my Aliens in to them to be tested, a) I wouldn't trust their test, and b) I'd probably wouldn't see my Aliens for months and months (which was my experience last time I sent one in).
Case in point: They are supposedly trying to fix their mistakes, but they go and send one out that fails. Sure this guy should have seen it was messed up by inspecting it, and sure I understand that "Diane" grabbed one from the wrong pile (which incidentally begs the question, what the hell is this Diane doing going anywhere near these Aliens anyway)...
Just how many chances should we give these idiots?
Is it overkill to bounce test every single piece of equipment you own? Sure. We know that companies test and certify their gear. Is it overkill to bounce test every single Alien you own? Hell no! Until CCH goes out of business (and I hope they do) and a company/individual with some INTEGRITY starts manufacturing them, I'll consider Aliens to be home-made-in-a-garage pieces with no quality control whatsoever... which is exactly what they are.
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napoleon_in_rags
Feb 22, 2006, 4:21 AM
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In reply to: It has nothing to do with their normal production processes.
If an assistant was able to bypass the QC check and send a defective cam out, this has everything to do with their normal production processes. And any other company would have had a full recall if they discovered one defect like this in a lifesaving piece of gear. Show that type of evidence in a wrongful injury lawsuit and see how much money you get.
Now you obviously have some inside information that the rest of us don't. Tell us, if you can, exactly what are CCH's new QC checks. Because I need convincing
And don't tell me now Dave is checking 100% of the Cams again. I don't know Dave. I mean what if Dave gets on medication, is hungover, or simply in a Bad Mood? I would hate to deck simply because Dave went on a bender the day before he checked out my Cam.
For background info, half the cams on my rack are Aliens, I have fallen on them before and they held. A friend of mine uses WC Zeros and we used to get in arguments over which was the better cam. I love the way they place, in particular the yellow Alien which I would hate to give up. (Edited for spelling)
If I got in an argument with him today, I would lose.
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vegastradguy
Feb 22, 2006, 4:22 AM
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In reply to: sure I understand that "Diane" grabbed one from the wrong pile (which incidentally begs the question, what the hell is this Diane doing going anywhere near these Aliens anyway)...
perhaps a better question is- what the hell are unswaged aliens doing anywhere near completed aliens? especially if at first glance they look the same?
i give CCH credit for stepping to bat on the return time (i got my alien back in 10 days after sending in a recalled hybrid), but i really worry that Dave is still in way over his head on this one, despite all of his best efforts.
best of luck to them, though- they make a great product and it'd be a shame to lose that because of this.
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healyje
Feb 22, 2006, 4:38 AM
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One more time -
Since CCH's inception it has been a craft/artisan shop - think glassblowers, blacksmiths, luthiers, furniture makers, etc. - artisans. If what you are visualizing is some sleek modern factory managed and operated by MBA's and mechanical engineers than you have entirely the wrong image in your head and a totally unrealistic set of expectations at this point.
Dave understands the need to make the transition from a shop of craftspersons to a more industrial operation with formal QC programs and has begun the process of making that change. The reality is that change will take time - it always does.
As for my "inside connection" it's called a telephone and I call up Dave and ask him what's happening and what he's thinking. He talks to me because he knows that while I'm not a Alien loyalist, I do try to stay objective. As for what they've initially implemented in the interim while getting a formal program organized, I know they are jig-testing cam lobe batches coming off the CNC; pull testing brazed joints; and now stamping swages.
So to reprise my earlier post:
That's the reality of the CCH situation so:
A) If you don't like the current situation and don't have any, then simply don't buy their cams.
B) If you don't like the current situation and do have Aliens - then live and deal with it - otherwise don't use them, return them, sell them, or otherwise dispose of the ones you have.
C) If on the otherhand you like Aliens and have some - inspect them and get ahold of Dave to fix any problem you find with them.
D) If you like them and don't have any yet or need more then the call is up to you - if you buy or otherwise acquire them then follow option C after you get them.
It really is that simple...
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gunksgoer
Feb 22, 2006, 4:52 AM
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If this were McDonalds and not CCH, someone would have already tried to sue them for 20 million dollars.
I think alot of people just dont realize what a big deal this is. Ive actually seen better quality control at McDonalds, and happy meals arent life saving devices!
After all these incidents, I personally hope that cch goes out of business and has to sell their patent to a real company. That way everyone could have all the safe aliens they wanted.
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clayman
Feb 22, 2006, 4:53 AM
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In reply to: As I've said before, this is a craft/artisan shop and has been for twenty years. Dave is at this point fully cognizant and painfully aware of the need to transform the operation into modern manufacturing one with full and formal QC controls.
This bothers me. It takes 20 twenty years + a recall to get you to install "modern" QC? This isn't some upstart, why hasn't "modern" QC been installed? Can anybody answer that? And now under the present circumstances, Dave is running around saying he's trying to install QC. Duh, he's trying to save his ass?
Also healyje, saying that "this is a craft/artisan shop" is a poor excuse.
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napoleon_in_rags
Feb 22, 2006, 5:05 AM
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In reply to: Since CCH's inception it has been a craft/artisan shop - think glassblowers, blacksmiths, luthiers, furniture makers, etc. - artisans. If what you are visualizing is some sleek modern factory managed and operated by MBA's and mechanical engineers than you have entirely the wrong image in your head and a totally unrealistic set of expectations at this point.
When I think of things made in a craft/ artisan shop, I expect higher quality, not less. For example: if I buy a handmade classical guitar from a luthier in Spain, I expect that it will sound better and last longer that some piece of crap Yamaha made in Singpore. And I would extremely p*$%ed off if the neck broke the first time I tried to play it. Of course the handmade guitar costs over 20 times as much as the other.
There are plenty of small companys and work shops that have excellent QC programs - some are even ISO certified. It is not an unrealistic expectation to have a manufacturer guarantee high standards of quality on a piece of gear that is meant to save a life in a fall. Even if the manufacturer is being run out of a garage.
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mattm
Feb 22, 2006, 5:17 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: As I've said before, this is a craft/artisan shop and has been for twenty years. Dave is at this point fully cognizant and painfully aware of the need to transform the operation into modern manufacturing one with full and formal QC controls. This bothers me. It takes 20 twenty years + a recall to get you to install "modern" QC? This isn't some upstart, why hasn't "modern" QC been installed? Can anybody answer that? And now under the present circumstances, Dave is running around saying he's trying to install QC. Duh, he's trying to save his ass? Also healyje, saying that "this is a craft/artisan shop" is a poor excuse.
While I'm not thrilled with the recent events and hope CCH does get their act in gear (Poor quality is unacceptable in climbing safety gear) all the people crying FOUL over the "homemade-ness" of Aliens need to stay better informed. It's been a well know fact FOR YEARS that CCH is a garage company out of WY. ALL climbing companies at one point or another were garage companies but as demand increased and companies changed, so too did the way things were done and WC and BD and what have you. Over that same time CCH and Aliens didn't change (although the demand did and ultimately, that has been the Achilles heel) As long as I can remember being familiar with aliens (10 years?) I've known their were a small, home-made outfit. All climbers should be informed consumers and not purchase blindly. Every time I bought and Alien I looked it over - it was evident that some were "better" than others (supporting stories that have trickled through the climbing community for a LONG time). YES, this isn't great and YES, they now need to fix it BUT reacting to the news that CCH is grassroots and things are not 3 Sigma Clean Room perfect like it's out of the blue is over the top.
Are the CCH problems bad? Yes.
Did they handle it well? No.
Should we be shocked and awed? Certainly not.
Should we now expect improvements and better QC? Absolutely.
Crying since we learned there is no Santa Clause gets us nowhere.
Voice your displeasure to CCH (occurring all the time) Choose whether you'll support them if or when they get their act together and make a PERSONAL choice to remain or become an informed consumer.
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healyje
Feb 22, 2006, 5:18 AM
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Well, I guess this is a case of being old I've seen more sh#t gear go by then you can shake a stick at. That includes home-made, garage shop, and extremely well manufactured gear. Some of the sleekest gear manufactured with extremely modern standards was routinely of such bad design you were at deadly serious risk the one time you relied on it when first checking it out. It would make us cringe to see people routinely climbing on such crap long after we had summarily dismissed it as deadly just because it came from a "reputable climbing gear company". Some of it was so badly designed it never even made it out of the store or off the ground if it did. But we took responsibility for our own safety - we assumed nothing - you should all consider doing the same.
I still assume nothing. I don't assume gear is of good design, good manufacture, or that I really know how to use it the first time I get it in my hands just because it's more or less similar to some other piece of gear. Now I know it'a a "new age" of highly commercialized consumer-oriented climbing, but at the moment CCH is an "old world" company we're dealing with. The bottom line here really does amount to - DEAL WITH IT OR DON"T - it's your choice.
No amount of of relentless hysteria and drama here is going to accomplish anything constructive. If you want them out of business - don't buy their products and tell your friends to do the same. But the likely result of that will not be the sale or licensing of the Alien design - the odds are far, far greater that Aliens will never be made again - as after all this stigma no one will touch them. The choice of how we use the Internet as a community is ours - we either wield it as constructive force or operate as an on-line lynch mob. The choice is yours individually - I'm just one voice and am in no position to, nor do I frankly have any interest in, attempting to "rally the troops" behind CCH. But choose wisely or Aliens will be just another piece of gear that is no longer available to climbers outside of ebay (where, ironically, their value is holding up quite well).
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skinner
Feb 22, 2006, 5:32 AM
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I sincerely hope that CCH will one day soon produce a cam that has been subjected to proper QC and testing so that I and many others will be able to trust our lives on Aliens once again.
*Trust* is the big issue here with me.
I loved my Aliens and they were usually the first cam I chose off of my rack when making a placement.
I realized last week that I really don't trust any of them (dimpled or not) anymore, and that's not to say that they weren't safe, just that I have completely lost faith in them, consequently they became the last cam I would reach for instead of the first.
If I don't trust them, or feel that I have to back them up with another cam, then why are they on my rack at all?
As hard as it was, I made the decision to get rid of them all.
Now instead of worrying about it or bitching about it on rc.com, I will just stick with the cams that I know and trust.
Hopefully in the near future CCH will have it's QC in order and cams will be shipped with clearly identifiable evidence of testing.
When this day I comes, I will no doubt replenish my rack with aliens once again.
This I agree with..
In reply to: No amount of of relentless hysteria and drama here is going to accomplish anything constructive.
In reply to: That's the reality of the CCH situation so: B) If you don't like the current situation and do have Aliens - then live and deal with it - otherwise don't use them, return them, sell them, or otherwise dispose of the ones you have. |
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mattm
Feb 22, 2006, 5:38 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Since CCH's inception it has been a craft/artisan shop - think glassblowers, blacksmiths, luthiers, furniture makers, etc. - artisans. If what you are visualizing is some sleek modern factory managed and operated by MBA's and mechanical engineers than you have entirely the wrong image in your head and a totally unrealistic set of expectations at this point. When I think of things made in a craft/ artisan shop, I expect higher quality, not less. For example: if I buy a handmade classical guitar from a luthier in Spain, I expect that it will sound better and last longer that some piece of crap Yamaha made in Singpore. And I would extremely p*$%ed off if the neck broke the first time I tried to play it. Of course the handmade guitar costs over 20 times as much as the other.
While this could be a correct thought process it should really be more along the lines of "Artisan = more variable quality" By varied it could be shop to shop or "artist" to "artist". Counter point case - Artisan automaker Lamborghini. Amazing and amazingly expensive but it's also well know that their reliability leaves something to be desired. Same goes for custom choppers.
In the CCH case - the guitar maker was discovered making AMAZING guitars (true) and as word spread more and more people ordered them. At first the artisan kept quantity low and continued as normal but eventually people grew inpatient and clamored for more. Mistakenly, the artisan asked his son (still in training) to help and eventually quality dropped leading the consumers to cry foul (Justifiably).
Now in CCHs case the life safety factor certainly makes it A BIG deal. CCH, like many small companies trying to get bigger, is experiencing some hard growing pains. This is the critical juncture - either CCH figures out how to grow (My hope) or they don't and fold.
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danieladaniela
Feb 22, 2006, 5:44 AM
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In reply to: Let's up the hyperbole, drama, and hysteria a notch and while we're at it could we get that in an operetta?
Joseph, is there anything on earth or in the skies that could make you change your mind? I am starting to think there is not.
Obviously the defect in the photo - that could have been fatal - is totally unrelated to all other issues, whose variety covers about all phases of lavoration - as I hinted in the messages you attacked so violently about 10 days ago, and to the contrary of what you were mantaining in those messages. And in the new incident at least two people made a mistake, the worker and the quality controller. Both are obviously overworked and very nervous, thus, it's hard to expect the quality to improve from a past which already was a dim picture. Thus they should have stopped production. They should have issued to the very least an advisory (who knows how many cams out there have never been used, and may be used tomorrow for the first time) if not a formal recall at least an advisory. For all cams produced since the volume increase. And have people wait while they take a month or so to assess seriously the situation (you tell me they are doing that and still keep producing? The same people who could not even keep up with proper production alone?)
I don't steal gear and I don't pick up abandoned gear and I don't buy on ebay and if it's used, it's from someone that I know personally and trust. As for the gear that I buy in a shop, if you suggest that its safety level is similar to abandoned gear or gear I find at goodwill or on ebay, why the prices are not in the same range? Oh by the way, if this had been about a detergent or about paper clips, this amount of mistakes would not have been tolerated; and it's life critical equipment.
To end my comments in this thread, I'll give you a keyword, a hint on why some people aren't swallowing it: integrity. When really none at all is detected in a company, buyers beware.
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healyje
Feb 22, 2006, 6:17 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Let's up the hyperbole, drama, and hysteria a notch and while we're at it could we get that in an operetta? except that it's only fun till somebody gets hurt. Joseph, is there anything on earth or in the skies that could make you change your mind? I am starting to think there is not. Obviously the defect in the photo - that could have been fatal - is totally unrelated to all other issues, whose variety covers about all phases of lavoration - as I hinted in the messages you attacked so violently about 10 days ago, and to the contrary of what you were mantaining in those messages. And in the new incident at least two people made a mistake, the worker and the quality controller. Both are obviously overworked and very nervous, thus, it's hard to expect the quality to improve from a past which already was a dim picture. Thus they should have stopped production. They should have issued to the very least an advisory (who knows how many cams out there have never been used, and may be used tomorrow for the first time) if not a formal recall at least an advisory. For all cams produced since the volume increase. And have people wait while they take a month or so to assess seriously the situation (you tell me they are doing that and still keep producing? The same people who could not even keep up with proper production alone?) I don't steal gear and I don't pick up abandoned gear and I don't buy on ebay and if it's used, it's from someone that I know personally and trust. As for the gear that I buy in a shop, if you suggest that its safety level is similar to abandoned gear or gear I find at goodwill or on ebay, why the prices are not in the same range? Oh by the way, if this had been about a detergent or about paper clips, this amount of mistakes would not have been tolerated; and it's life critical equipment. To end my comments in this thread, I'll give you a keyword, a hint on why some people aren't swallowing it: integrity. When really none at all is detected in a company, buyers beware.
DanielaDaniela, this is pretty much a rehash of the clueless diatribe you were on last time with little or no improvement in either your willingness to read or clearly comprehend what has been written. Which part of "they're artisans" don't you understand? There is no "worker" and there is not "quality controller" - there was only Diane trying to help some guy out and screwed it up grabbing an unfinished cam. A complete bummer? Yep. An isolated incident as part of an service transaction in the initial tumult of the brazing recall? Yep. Can anything be done to change that incident? Nope. Again, get a grip on reality, get your facts straight for once, stop spewing inferences, and as I said last time if you don't have anything constructive to contribute give it a rest - you're already inaccurate from start to finish and posing yet again in this single post.
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daithi
Feb 22, 2006, 6:34 AM
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In reply to: If you want them out of business - don't buy their products and tell your friends to do the same. But the likely result of that will not be the sale or licensing of the Alien design - the odds are far, far greater that Aliens will never be made again - as after all this stigma no one will touch them.
Nonsense, this is just scare mongering. I bet if BD or someone got the patent and started mass producing them they would make a killing. The design is obviously excellent and they are very popular. The only thing the brand is suffering from currently (and quite justifiably) is an awful image due to amateurish manufacturing.
I personally think it is more about competence than integrity and as an organisation they have demonstrated incompetence bordering on negligence recently.
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danieladaniela
Feb 22, 2006, 6:36 AM
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LOL... they must be artists.
In reply to: Can anything be done to change that incident? Nope. |
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healyje
Feb 22, 2006, 7:07 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: If you want them out of business - don't buy their products and tell your friends to do the same. But the likely result of that will not be the sale or licensing of the Alien design - the odds are far, far greater that Aliens will never be made again - as after all this stigma no one will touch them. Nonsense, this is just scare mongering. I bet if BD or someone got the patent and started mass producing them they would make a killing. The design is obviously excellent and they are very popular. The only thing the brand is suffering from currently (and quite justifiably) is an awful image due to amateurish manufacturing. I personally think it is more about competence than integrity and as an organisation they have demonstrated incompetence bordering on negligence recently.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Mal or someone in the industry or someone with M&A experience would be better a better person to verify this with though I doubt anyone in the business is going to start speculating on this. Just who do you suppose is going to gamble on this? BD, never going to happen. Metolius, never going to happen. WC, nada. Trango, they have their hands full I would guess getting their new designs out the door in quantity and expanding those. I don't know who you think would pick it up under the circumstances of CCH going under, I personally don't think anyone will. But a CCH that remakes itself would then be in a position with some options along the lines of a sale or licensing. Right now I know of no one whose board would touch it in the midst of crisis or after a failure of the business.
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paganmonkeyboy
Feb 22, 2006, 7:14 AM
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***I*** would be tickled an pickled to make aliens instead of going in to work manana...plus i need a set of hybrids...
bd wc etc won't touch them after this ? *mistake*
anybody wanna throw me some venture capitol ?
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healyje
Feb 22, 2006, 7:44 AM
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In reply to: Joseph.. I'm just curious if you are starting to regret being the self-appointed liaison for CCH yet?
Not at all. I'm a technology consultant and am heavily involved with the Internet. I simply like seeing it used it's potential and forums like this and all the regional climbing forums represent fantastic early experiments in on-line culture and virtual society. Another part of my consultancy and background happens to be in crisis intervention and disaster recovery, though not in this realm, so I have some competencies to offer on that front as well. Past that I'm an ISO auditor and have helped take companies through this type of traumatic cultural change. My interest isn't even in being a "liaison" so much as a constructive "facilitator" to the degree I can.
I've been working here and behind the scenes with others from the industry to get these issues at CCH addressed about a year now and long before the brazing affair is came to light. Anyone that bothers to look at my posts on the recall thread will see I have been about holding CCH to the issues. It's all a bit ironic as well given, aside from the hybrids, I don't even particularly care for Aliens; My primary cam sets are Metolius with a few large BD's. But I've seen too many companies go down the tube over the years taking good products with them and don't much care to see another one suffer that fate. My belief is no one is going to win if CCH goes under. Others may disagree but I'm just following my own convictions and interests in the matter.
My bottom line in this matter is constantly rooted in the reality of CCH. There is no point in drama, invalid comparisons with other companies, or "industry standards"; they are what they are. The interesting challenge to my way of thinking is to see them become something that up until now they have not been. Will it happen? Only Dave knows for sure. I just believe our collective choice is to either find some constructive role in that transformation, or to simply act as an on-line lynch mob. I personally find the latter a sad, lowest common denominator option and wasted opportunity, but that's just me. It'll no doubt be interesting to see how it all plays out...
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dynosore
Feb 22, 2006, 1:55 PM
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Healyje,
Care to refute my #'s where I claim approx. $0.20/unit for a simple test that would ensure proper swaging and soldering? Aliens are 50+$$ retail, so CCH probably gets 25-30$/unit. Less than one percent would have been added to the cost (or profits would have been very slightly less) to avoid this whole mess. If you were making a life saving device, helayje, would you have them go out the door without testing? I fail to believe Dave sat their and scrutinized every alien made. Mis-drilled axles that were easily noticed by consumers would stick out like a sore thumb to someone who has inspected tens of thousands :roll:
I did TS&D for about 2 years on my way from manufacturing to research, and I honestly don't recall a single company, regardless of size, that didn't have some QC in place. It's part of the cost of doing business.
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Deleted
Feb 22, 2006, 3:07 PM
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Joseph,any idea how many Aliens have been produced? And it looks like there are maybe three dimpled unit failures in the field,some more at Mtn Gear (3?) and one failed swedge that was never crimped.
What I find interesting is that in all this uproar,practically no one came forth with other stories of woe.
Regardless of their QC or lack thereof, the failure rate is incredibly low.Stuff happens,people put wrong things in a box.It's easy to criticize.
Gear fails.Trusting one anything increases the possibility of catastrophe.I have never looked at my Aliens as anything more than small crack pro with limitations,the fact that they actually perform very well has led to a level of trust that has become a part of this whole witch hunt.
Some of us, like Healyje and others have been climbing long enough to remember when all kinds of sucky gear came and went,SMC hangers,those scary 1/2 size bootleg friends at the Gunks,you were lucky to get one.We used Rawl split drives,when Rawl found out they were being used for climbing they issued a statement recommending four at each placement.
I sincerely doubt most of you rabid" the company should go under" people have any idea what it is like to produce a product like this, or the kind of agony CCH is going through. The one poster here with all the info about how they did it where he worked has not said what they made or what it cost,that might be interesting.CCH could probably make a case for bankruptcy and leave everyone holding the bag but they are not. Dave isn't a public relations wizard,BFD.It's a damn good thing the affected cams have the dimple,otherwise they would go under due to the vast numbers in circulation.
Changes in manufacturing or implementing meaningful QC takes time.I'm amazed that it sounds like some people have already gotten replacement cams,and I think that's pretty good.
I'm keeping mine.
Tom
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tradgal
Feb 22, 2006, 3:40 PM
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Hey, is that...Diane I see in the unemployment line? If she were my employee--she would be!
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murf
Feb 22, 2006, 4:34 PM
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The switch from a low output family shop to a high(er) producing company has been the death of plenty of small guys. The problems aren't easy.
I think it was inexcusable that the uncrimped alien got out the door. I do feel for the Dave Waggoner. It must be heartbreaking to try and work through the brazing issue, only to have your admin send out an uncrimped alien. Again, the mere fact that it could happen speaks volumes, but even so, the dude must be crushed.
As for another manufacturer taking on the "patent"... Have you people taken a look around? Metolious just took the TCU to a fantastic smaller profile. BD's C3's look like a mad scientist experiment, but the photo in the most recent catalog with it twisted 180 deg. boogles the mind. These companies aren't sitting on their hands waiting for CCH to implode, they are out there innovating.
Only time will tell what small cam will reign supreme, regardless of the outcome of CCH's QC problems. The market just got a whole lot more competitive, and that in itself is going to be a problem for CCH. Especially since they cannot seem to get a grip on modern production and QC.
Murf
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