By complaining about CCH, you hurt the climbing community!!!...

FWIW: You'll be lucky if CCH doesn't smack you with a libel suit. :idea:

I'm not saying every piece they have ever made is perfect, but I've had great experiences and I wouldn't hinge my life on one piece whether its BD, CCH, or HB.

Hi Healyje:

You are now referring to you as part of "We", are you working for/reporting for CCH in an offical capacity now?

If so, do you officially confirm that this was not a dimpled alien? And that there was, in fact, another mode of failure not at the head this time, where a Braze is suspect, but at the loop, where a swage is required?

Thank you for your help.

-Kate.

I agree with bobruef - give them some time to deal with the previous issue.

:lol: Apparently I need to lay it on a little thicker next time :lol:

go back and read my post, but flank it w/ some [scarcasm][/scarcasm] coding.

I personally have 6 years of 'in the field' experience with aliens - aid and free. I've ripped other cams in whippers, but never an alien. I've ripped aliens, but only while bounce-testing dubious placements. I also tend to 'double up' pro where groundfall potential exists. I'm not saying every piece they have ever made is perfect, but I've had great experiences and I wouldn't hinge my life on one piece whether its BD, CCH, or HB.

FWIW: You'll be lucky if CCH doesn't smack you with a libel suit. :idea:

okay i'm done now. i will be throwing those pieces of s--- in the garbage can immediately

okay i'm done now. i will be throwing those pieces of s--- in the garbage can immediately

Go ahead and send those pieces of s--- my way. PM me for shipping address.

cch sucks my nuts their gear can't be trusted give me a libel suit. what a bunch of sorry pieces of s---. here guys buy this product of mine that might kill you i don't know for sure but f--- it!

i love the stories of guys who've been climbing for years and years and say they've never had a problem with aliens and then conclude they're plenty safe. what the f--- is wrong w/you people? ugh.


okay i'm done now. i will be throwing those pieces of s--- in the garbage can immediately

Report here:http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/...16a30eaf3#Post547978

sorry, but unlike cch i'm not in the business of distributing faulty, life endangering products

I grew up climbing in a swami with slung carparts - i've got to tell you that aliens are worlds ahead of slung car parts. I'm guessing you aren't really going to throw those aliens out. If you are, please don't break the hearts of those of us out there who would love to have them.

send them my way - $10/each?

Billcoe, you need to be VEEEEEERY careful about this thread, because nowhere in the OP was it ever stated that this cam wasn't dimpled. It stated it a was as of a few weeks ago as well as later stating there were no numbers on it aside from the sticker.

It was YOU that asked a question in regards to the lack of a dimple, and did so in the form of a statement rather than an actual question. The OP then responded but said nothing in regards to your dimple comment.

You then post a thread over here that's entitled "Another Alien falls apart! Not a dimpled one." as if it were in deed a factual statement, when it is not, based upon the posts on the other board. :evil:

FWIW: You'll be lucky if CCH doesn't smack you with a libel suit. :idea:

3) as far as markings go, theres not much to tell. its definetly not a dimpled cam (that would really be out there for them to ship one of those out eh?)
on the bottom of the trigger (cam side) is the "alien cch usa" stamp and on the top is a small (1/8" diameter) blue sticker w a number 9 written in pen on it. it might be a 6, or a d, or a b, or a q,...but it MOST resembles the number 9. i have meticulously looked over this cam and there are no other markings.
i will post a few pictures tomorrow.

And once again...Crack Diamond...the winner!!!

Yeah, I love the way BD used to test their gear out on the public. For years, I wouldn't consider buying anything made by them if it was the product's first year out. My favorite is still the CF Black Prophets :) !

I have many aliens and love them. My newest one being from '93.

I've stood by them for years. I've spoken with the owner a few years back when there was a problem with one of my hybrids.

That said, he deserves to lose the company. He made a decision not to let the company grow and to remain a garage-like operation. He then traded quality for quantity by trying to keeping up with the demand. This was his MAJOR MISTAKE!

The climbing industry has grown and evolved(come up with stricter safety standards). If it didn't, because of the popularity boom in climbing, we'd all be in far greater danger of losing our climbing priveleges across the land as more deaths would be occuring. We don't need that kind of press!

Here's (raising a pint) to CCH going down and to another, reputable gear manufacturer picking up the patent! :wink:

-Jason :D

Edited to add: I am absolutely appaled at the way CCH handled the recall in the beginning

My guess is that CCH did pull test the brazed joint - before the thumb loop was assembled. For example: mount the axle end in a fixture, grip the cable end in a vice or whatever, and pull. If it holds together, cut the cable to it's final length (removing any marred cable) and form the thumb loop. Very reasonable way to pull-test every braze joint.

That they are now pull testing cams before they ship is good as it means they are starting at the end of the workflow and over time instituting checks backwards from that which is a good approach.

It is undoubtably just another sign that this has been a craft/artisan shop badly in need of formal QC process controls. That they didn't happen overnight shouldn't necessarily be a shocker. No one changes overnight and it's likely to take some period of time before they have a good QC wrapper around every single process step.

cch apologist wrote:

That's a horrible approach. What good is a solid brazed head when the thumb loop fails? Here's a "good approach". Don't sell another frickin' cam until you know they live up to their strength rating. Oh wait, that would cost them money, couldn't have that now could we?

You don't institute a QC program a bit at a time years after you've already been producing a product, especially one people count on as a life saving device. If indeed they keep putting out product that they haven't thoroughly tested, especially after the recent debacle, it only makes it crystal clear that they care far more about profits than their customers, in case it wasn't clear already.

What a joke that you're still apologizing for this pathetic company. I pray you're not in any sort of manufacturing or QC role.

My first "real" job was in 1995 in a QC role for a company with a whopping 9 employees. We had 3 sigma controls, mandatory calibration schedules for testing equipment, once a year round robin testing with outside firms, etc.

I don't know but will inquire as to the order of pull testing relative to assembly. Given the timeline the OP is providing I strongly suspect this cam actually went out during the initial turmoil around the Brazing issue, but before they instituted pull testing. Again, I'll see if I can't verify that.

Um.....TGreene.....from the guy who had the failure....in the same thread at: 02/20/06 07:26 PM
http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/...16a30eaf3#Post548231

It was pretty clearly stated...And the failure mode was not the same as the braze issue CCH had announced in their recall. This sounds like the unit was never swaged/ crimped.

I'll wait for pictures untill I really belive it...but IF this IS true... :arrow: F*ck CCH!

Cheers,
Jim

edit: posted before I ready healyj's post and all.

Please note the time stamps, because the NO DIMPLE statement was made 12 hours after the initial post. Up to that point, everything was pure speculation.

I don't think it's ok to just brush this off....which is the vibe I get from a lot of people on these Alien threads. This is the 3rd issue I've seen with Aliens in the past 2 or 3 years.

I don't think it's ok to just brush this off....

...
So, for everyone that think's we should all just play the role of the catholic priest, ask for a few hail mary's, and forget about it....

So following your line of reasoning we can assume this company produced absolutely no products before 3 sigma, mandatory calibration, and outside auditing. I might believe that if it were a relatively new company, otherwise at some point they put out products without those QC measures and still thought they put out a "quality product".

I think its safe to say at this point your preference on CC's disposition is clearly noted

That CC thread said that he posted pictures.. but they dont seem to be anywhere in that thread and havent been cross posted over to this thread. I'm sure people would be interested in seeing them here too

I don't care to state my position so much as to offer a counter-point to your position as someone involved in manufacturing and QC who thinks this is somehow excusable.

I have a question. If CCH hadn't had the "dimple problem" how much noise would have been made over this ONE incident?

As a side note, I love this site. It gives me much pleasure on my lunch brakes :)

Current scene in downtown Laramie

http://smh.com.au/...deweb__470x326,0.jpg

clayman,

Nice!!

But your on-the-scene reporter missed this inside the CCH "artisan" headquarters:

http://www.timothy-moore.com/...hoot%20in%20foot.jpg

Don't forget about the misdrilled axels. That makes THREE big FU's in the space of a few months.

Quite true. Also, I would point out that if I were ever to replace a product for someone who has already had a problem in the past with my company, I would make absolutely sure the replacement I was sending them was 100% perfect. It sounds like CCH dropped the ball on that one as well.

FWIW: You'll be lucky if CCH doesn't smack you(Billcoe) with a libel suit. :idea:

Another good point. It would be interesting to see what other companies have produced failure wise.

I just used the site search engine and conducted an interesting little experiment.

Conduct a search for CCH and 9 of the 20 threads that come up are recall or defect related.

Conduct a search by combining Black Diamond or Camalot with defect, injury, recall, or failure and nothing related comes up.

I realize this is not scientific or conclusive by any means but there are enough BD haters on this site that if an injury or fall was even suspected of being connected to Camalots, there would be a forum. Of course maybe I am not searching the right words...

cch apologist wrote:


That's a horrible approach. What good is a solid brazed head when the thumb loop fails? Here's a "good approach". Don't sell another frickin' cam until you know they live up to their strength rating. Oh wait, that would cost them money, couldn't have that now could we?

some souless, greedy CEO at the helm

As I have already pointed out, free testing of *all* cams should be offered and to the very least a warning should be issued and publicized, advising not to use the cams in the meanwhile. All the rest is s---. Or should we wait for a tragedy?

I think more to the point, CCH just can't afford QC.

If it is not soulless to send people, young people almost kids, or "older" people with family and young children, off on unsafe gear, maybe plunging to their death or devastation for life, well-knowing that the gear is not reliable and doing everything possible to cover it up and even now limiting the recall to what cannot be denied, you tell me what a soulless person is.

As I have already pointed out, free testing of *all* cams should be offered and to the very least a warning should be issued and publicized, advising not to use the cams in the meanwhile. All the rest is s---. Or should we wait for a tragedy?

Any pictures yet?

On a side note:

When were dimpled Aliens first produced?

As I have already pointed out, free testing of *all* cams should be offered

and to the very least a warning should be issued and publicized, advising not to use the cams in the meanwhile.

Pics are in...

The swage on the piece was never pressed. I just got off the phone with Dave at CCH and it's clear this occured during the initial brazing tumoil before they started putting processes in place. This one got out as it wasn't Dave that put this one in the box but his assistant Diane who was attempting to get one out to Chris after such a long delay. She unfortunately grabbed one off the to-be-swaged pile. Prior to the brazing recall, Dave personally put every cam going out in the box to be shipped. That slipped in this case. This was an unfortunate case where normal workflow was short-circuited in an attempt to correct the previous service screwup and resulted in a bad cam going out and casting yet more doubt on their operation. But as suspected this was an isolated one-off incident that occured prior to their current QC initiatives.

How many other times did Diane bypass CCHs meager quality control checks?

Did she only send out that one Cam or are there other non-swaged cams out there?

What time period was this? What date did they hit the market?

Is CCH going to hold another recall on the batch that this happened on? They should. If there is any possibility that another non swaged cam got out, there needs to be one. CCH should begin by becoming proactive, not reactive when issues like this comes up.

Do your search using a regular search engine and you'll get recalls for products made by almost all gear manufacturers including Black Diamond, Petzl, Metolius, Wild Country, etc...

Calm down, he's just trolling you.

http://a.abclocal.go.com/...kabc/ricromerobg.jpg

News flash: climbing is dangerous. Test your pieces. All of them. I test mine, especially since lots of them come from mfgr's that no longer exist.

Considering that I have snapped the cables on micronuts and heads on aid while testing them, I like to think that my bounce tests are reasonably stout. Especially the funk-it-in-my-vise test for cams (Aliens and BDs).

Do what you like with your gear, just don't take anyone else's word on its safety. Test them yourself and decide accordingly.

I probably won't buy any new CCH units as a result of this debacle, FWIW.

For the past twenty years Dave has inspected every cam and put it in the shipping box personally

It has nothing to do with their normal production processes.

sure I understand that "Diane" grabbed one from the wrong pile (which incidentally begs the question, what the hell is this Diane doing going anywhere near these Aliens anyway)...

As I've said before, this is a craft/artisan shop and has been for twenty years. Dave is at this point fully cognizant and painfully aware of the need to transform the operation into modern manufacturing one with full and formal QC controls.

Since CCH's inception it has been a craft/artisan shop - think glassblowers, blacksmiths, luthiers, furniture makers, etc. - artisans. If what you are visualizing is some sleek modern factory managed and operated by MBA's and mechanical engineers than you have entirely the wrong image in your head and a totally unrealistic set of expectations at this point.

This bothers me. It takes 20 twenty years + a recall to get you to install "modern" QC? This isn't some upstart, why hasn't "modern" QC been installed? Can anybody answer that? And now under the present circumstances, Dave is running around saying he's trying to install QC. Duh, he's trying to save his ass?
Also healyje, saying that "this is a craft/artisan shop" is a poor excuse.

No amount of of relentless hysteria and drama here is going to accomplish anything constructive.

That's the reality of the CCH situation so:

B) If you don't like the current situation and do have Aliens - then live and deal with it - otherwise don't use them, return them, sell them, or otherwise dispose of the ones you have.

When I think of things made in a craft/ artisan shop, I expect higher quality, not less. For example: if I buy a handmade classical guitar from a luthier in Spain, I expect that it will sound better and last longer that some piece of crap Yamaha made in Singpore. And I would extremely p*$%ed off if the neck broke the first time I tried to play it. Of course the handmade guitar costs over 20 times as much as the other.

Let's up the hyperbole, drama, and hysteria a notch and while we're at it could we get that in an operetta?

except that it's only fun till somebody gets hurt.

Joseph, is there anything on earth or in the skies that could make you change your mind? I am starting to think there is not.

Obviously the defect in the photo - that could have been fatal - is totally unrelated to all other issues, whose variety covers about all phases of lavoration - as I hinted in the messages you attacked so violently about 10 days ago, and to the contrary of what you were mantaining in those messages. And in the new incident at least two people made a mistake, the worker and the quality controller. Both are obviously overworked and very nervous, thus, it's hard to expect the quality to improve from a past which already was a dim picture. Thus they should have stopped production. They should have issued to the very least an advisory (who knows how many cams out there have never been used, and may be used tomorrow for the first time) if not a formal recall at least an advisory. For all cams produced since the volume increase. And have people wait while they take a month or so to assess seriously the situation (you tell me they are doing that and still keep producing? The same people who could not even keep up with proper production alone?)

I don't steal gear and I don't pick up abandoned gear and I don't buy on ebay and if it's used, it's from someone that I know personally and trust. As for the gear that I buy in a shop, if you suggest that its safety level is similar to abandoned gear or gear I find at goodwill or on ebay, why the prices are not in the same range? Oh by the way, if this had been about a detergent or about paper clips, this amount of mistakes would not have been tolerated; and it's life critical equipment.

To end my comments in this thread, I'll give you a keyword, a hint on why some people aren't swallowing it: integrity. When really none at all is detected in a company, buyers beware.

If you want them out of business - don't buy their products and tell your friends to do the same. But the likely result of that will not be the sale or licensing of the Alien design - the odds are far, far greater that Aliens will never be made again - as after all this stigma no one will touch them.

Can anything be done to change that incident? Nope.

Nonsense, this is just scare mongering. I bet if BD or someone got the patent and started mass producing them they would make a killing. The design is obviously excellent and they are very popular. The only thing the brand is suffering from currently (and quite justifiably) is an awful image due to amateurish manufacturing.

I personally think it is more about competence than integrity and as an organisation they have demonstrated incompetence bordering on negligence recently.

Joseph.. I'm just curious if you are starting to regret being the self-appointed liaison for CCH yet?

happy meals arent life saving devices!

DanielaDaniela, this is pretty much a rehash of the clueless diatribe you were on last time with little or no improvement in either your willingness to read or clearly comprehend what has been written... and as I said last time if you don't have anything constructive to contribute give it a rest .

The only thing the brand is suffering from currently (and quite justifiably) is an awful image due to amateurish manufacturing.

DanielaDaniela, who I'll remind you is taking this all in using her second language,

is entitled to her opinion that CCH's policies have proven to be dangerous and irresponsible.

I think it was inexcusable that the uncrimped alien got out the door. I do feel for the Dave Waggoner. It must be heartbreaking to try and work through the brazing issue, only to have your admin send out an uncrimped alien. Again, the mere fact that it could happen speaks volumes, but even so, the dude must be crushed.

With all due respect to Chris, the CC.com OP on this one who has been great on following through on all this, a cursory inspection and even a hand pull test on the ground prior to use would have caught this one. A free test is available to anyone with a couple of slings and a rock. No company could sustain "free testing" of *all* cams.

a cursory inspection and even a hand pull test on the ground prior to use would have caught this one.