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iamthewallress
Feb 22, 2006, 6:00 PM
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In reply to: DanielaDaniela, this is pretty much a rehash of the clueless diatribe you were on last time with little or no improvement in either your willingness to read or clearly comprehend what has been written... and as I said last time if you don't have anything constructive to contribute give it a rest .
healyje...If you want people to keep their tone civil, I think that you should too.
DanielaDaniela, who I'll remind you is taking this all in using her second language, is entitled to her opinion that CCH's policies have proven to be dangerous and irresponsible.
Personally, having received 5 bad units of which I am aware (4 dimples, and one misdrilled) I don't appreciate your check list that amounts to "like it or lump it". If there's anyone who should NOT be telling others that they've overstated their opinion in this thread, IMO, it's you.
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tim
Feb 22, 2006, 6:25 PM
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In reply to: DanielaDaniela, who I'll remind you is taking this all in using her second language,
(thank you for pointing this out -- her English is better than that of many native speakers who use the site. And she is very clear in what she says.)
In reply to: is entitled to her opinion that CCH's policies have proven to be dangerous and irresponsible.
I don't disagree with her for a second, regarding the results of CCH's decisions. I have a lot of older Aliens and it's not trivial for me to test them. However, it falls to me to do so, as I have a much greater motivation to do a thorough job of it (and even if I did send my pieces back to CCH for testing -- could I really trust the results, after what we've seen?!?)
Nor do I think that she is mistaken in calling CCH out -- they decided to pursue a course of business development that has proven to be inappropriate for their market. However, she has made some stunningly unrealistic requests that, as a matter of self-preservation, ought to be superfluous. At this point, CCH is going to have a hard time keeping themselves alive as a business, and I suspect their customers would do well to start fending for themselves.
I hate to be so cynical, but their QA is starting to look like Enron's accounting department. I wouldn't entrust my safety to them, but in order to ensure that the significant number of not-free Aliens I already own won't blow to bits at the slightest provocation, I am testing the damn things myself. Along with the occasional Camalot and TCU as controls.
Sad but true -- you cited 5 pieces of evidence favoring my point of view already. About the only thing that seems to be up for debate here is, by whom the testing should be done. In my opinion, the users of CCH's products have a much stronger incentive (not dying, as well as the ability to visually verify the integrity of their safety gear) than CCH themselves. Again reverting to cynical-businessprick mode, what's the ROI for testing gear that's already been sold? CCH's fate may already be sealed, and I think it would be foolish for owners and users of Aliens not to consider this.
If CCH takes a dive, it would be insane not to exhaustively test any CCH gear that you own. From my perspective (already engaging in this), there is no reason not to test your own pieces regardless of CCH's fate. The sooner people inspect and/or test their Aliens, the better chance they will have of obtaining replacement units (or participating in a class action suit...) should CCH be unable to emerge from this crisis intact.
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tim
Feb 22, 2006, 6:34 PM
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In reply to: I think it was inexcusable that the uncrimped alien got out the door. I do feel for the Dave Waggoner. It must be heartbreaking to try and work through the brazing issue, only to have your admin send out an uncrimped alien. Again, the mere fact that it could happen speaks volumes, but even so, the dude must be crushed.
It is a crying shame -- I'm sure it looked for all the world like they were going to turn the corner and charge boldly into the brave new world. Having seen both sides of the equation -- selling too early, selling just in time, and selling way too late -- I do feel for the guy. But after posting the "hoax" note initially, this chapter begins to look like the gods punishing a man for his hubris.
Devastating nonetheless, and tragic -- I can't imagine Diane is feeling like a real champ right now either. There's just no way that this tale is going to have a happy ending. Such are the brutal realities of the marketplace.
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jimdavis
Feb 22, 2006, 6:50 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: As I have already pointed out, free testing of *all* cams should be offered and to the very least a warning should be issued and publicized, advising not to use the cams in the meanwhile. All the rest is s---. Or should we wait for a tragedy? With all due respect to Chris, the CC.com OP on this one who has been great on following through on all this, a cursory inspection and even a hand pull test on the ground prior to use would have caught this one. A free test is available to anyone with a couple of slings and a rock. No company could sustain "free testing" of *all* cams.
I can't belive you think this....
In reply to: a cursory inspection and even a hand pull test on the ground prior to use would have caught this one.
You yourself said just how simple it would be to catch this...and CCH can't even do that. This is just redicilous.
If CCH wants to sell cams, they need to be as reliable as other cams on the market. Most people that own Aliens don't know this is a business run out of basement, and don't care either.
They paid good money, for a cam they are going to climb on; they didn't want some handmade piece of shit that looks cool, but might fall apart.
I'm reminded of the Firestone Explorer tire recall.....you think there wouldn't have been a lawsuit if they were a "craft/ artisian shop"?
Bullshit, they're held to the standards of the industry, and their peers.
If they can't keep up, have been making a product for 15 years or whatever now, and haven't been interested in QC untill now......f*ck em.
Jim
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jimdavis
Feb 22, 2006, 7:03 PM
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In reply to: One more time - Since CCH's inception it has been a craft/artisan shop - think glassblowers, blacksmiths, luthiers, furniture makers, etc. - artisans. If what you are visualizing is some sleek modern factory managed and operated by MBA's and mechanical engineers than you have entirely the wrong image in your head and a totally unrealistic set of expectations at this point. Dave understands the need to make the transition from a shop of craftspersons to a more industrial operation with formal QC programs and has begun the process of making that change. The reality is that change will take time - it always does.
One more time, healyje:
He shouldn't have signed the contract with REI that forced him to sacrifice his QC for $ then.
Don't talk about how they are the victims for needing to switch from a small artisian shop to a full blown manufacturing company, after they commit to providing a number of cams which they can't produce at a safe level. It was their choice to sacrifice quality for a larger output/ profit.
This whole ordeal was brought on by CCH's approach to their quality.
Jim
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billl7
Feb 22, 2006, 7:46 PM
Post #107 of 199
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In reply to: Hey, is that...Diane I see in the unemployment line? If she were my employee--she would be!
Bill
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flyinglow
Feb 22, 2006, 7:46 PM
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In reply to: Hey, is that...Diane I see in the unemployment line? If she were my employee--she would be!
Seriously.
All the QC in the world doesn't do a damn bit of good if the employees don't follow the procedures. this isn't exactly a QC problem, as the piece wasn't ready to be shipped, and probably would have been fine if it completed the manufacturing process. It's an employee problem(a mistake, i'd guess won't be made again by that employee. can you imagine the ass chewing she's getting if she does still have a job?)
I'm sure she was trying to do something to promote good PR in a time when they desperately need it, but it's just inexcusable to have somebody shipping product who doesn't know where the finished product is stored or even how to identify a finished product.
It's depressing to know that things like this could ever happen, but i guess that's life. either way, it's a singular mistake, and not something you could do a recall on unfortunately. Either way, inspection of your gear would take care of it.
Look at your gear before you climb on it people!
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tradgal
Feb 22, 2006, 8:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Hey, is that...Diane I see in the unemployment line? If she were my employee--she would be! State your managerial credentials first. Then explain how you know that the next person at the bins is less likely to do the same thing during an atypical crisis given that Diane's eyes are probably wide open at this point. Otherwise, statements like that just appear ignorant. As outsiders, we really can only hope to know enough to judge CCH. Bill
I own a construction business at the current time and have held numerous other managerial positions. Is that enough of a credential for you. I hire and I fire both employees and subcontractors.
The company that CCH subconctracted work to--would not longer work for me. Diane, who made a devestating error, potentially fatal error, would no longer work for me. Business is business. There is no room for friendships and no room for making mistakes such as the ones that were made.
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billl7
Feb 22, 2006, 8:30 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Hey, is that...Diane I see in the unemployment line? If she were my employee--she would be! State your managerial credentials first. Then explain how you know that the next person at the bins is less likely to do the same thing during an atypical crisis given that Diane's eyes are probably wide open at this point. Otherwise, statements like that just appear ignorant. As outsiders, we really can only hope to know enough to judge CCH. Bill I own a construction business at the current time and have held numerous other managerial positions. Is that enough of a credential for you. I hire and I fire both employees and subcontractors. The company that CCH subconctracted work to--would not longer work for me. Diane, who made a devestating error, potentially fatal error, would no longer work for me. Business is business. There is no room for friendships and no room for making mistakes such as the ones that were made.
Okay, satisfied with your credentials but you didn't explain how you know that firing Diane is best. You're assuming that you, the hypothetical manager of CCH, do not bear an even greater responsibility than Diane for the blunder (training? admin controls? etc..) in which case you would find yourself watching your "rats" leaving (edit: voluntarily) as your ship sinks.
Bill
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clayman
Feb 22, 2006, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: The company that CCH subconctracted work to--would not longer work for me.
and yet it is plainy stated on aliencamsbycch.com that
"Quality control. All machined parts are manufactured in *our* shop with modern computer numeric controlled equipment. This allows us to control the manufacturing processes from start to finish, eliminating possible errors from ***outside contractors***." Hum... this is exactly what happened
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jsj42
Feb 22, 2006, 9:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: DanielaDaniela, this is pretty much a rehash of the clueless diatribe you were on last time with little or no improvement in either your willingness to read or clearly comprehend what has been written... and as I said last time if you don't have anything constructive to contribute give it a rest . If there's anyone who should NOT be telling others that they've overstated their opinion in this thread, IMO, it's you.
healyje, looks like the "lynch mob" might be after you now!
I don't understand why you've taken it about yourself to be the voluntary go-between with CCH. As far as I'm concerned, that's fine, and it serves everybody well. But you cross the line when you tell others how to and how not to use the internet. From what I've seen, many people here have used the venue to openly express their opinions on CCH and these issues (sometimes emotionally so)... but this is far from a lynch mob.
CCH has blown it again and again and again, and while there are plenty of completely understandable explanations, there are no excuses. Whether they will survive or not remains to be seen. And while much of what DanielaDaniela says is full of superlatives and a little extreme, I for one happen to share many of her sentiments. She, jimdavis, and many others have spoken a lot of truth here.
In my opinion, CCH has dug themselves too deep with this last mistake. They will never have my business again.
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tradgal
Feb 22, 2006, 10:10 PM
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In reply to: Okay, satisfied with your credentials but you didn't explain how you know that firing Diane is best. You're assuming that you, the hypothetical manager of CCH, do not bear an even greater responsibility than Diane for the blunder (training? admin controls? etc..) in which case you would find yourself watching your "rats" leaving (edit: voluntarily) as your ship sinks. Bill
As hypothetical manager, of course I bear even a greater responsibility for the blunder. That's why I would fire her. I don't know that any other employee that could potentially be hired would not make the same mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. But, there are cetain mistakes that cannot be forgiven. This tiny mistake could have proven fatal.
That's different than shipping a cam to a wrong address or mis-filing something. This is a life and death mistake--Diane would be lucky to only fired rather than bearing the responsibility of sending an unfinished cam to someone and taking their life!
Like I said--business is business. Plain and simple....
Don't get me wrong--Dave has certainly made MANY mistakes. But, he owns the business. He can't very well go firing himself now can he? But, what he can do--is no longer outsource work. he can update his website. Strive to offer better customer service. Improve quality control. And eliminate any and all weak links in his system to regain trust from his customers. To regain loyalty. Whether that will work, remains to be seen.
Ironically enough, I am CCH cult member. I had an employee there drop ship my entire set of Aliens directly to me instead of going through a vendor--even though it was against the rules of CCH ( a couple years back). And, I am going to HAVE to dig through my old paperwork, because I know it was a woman and very well could have been Diane!!!
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healyje
Feb 22, 2006, 10:12 PM
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Folks - take your pick - buy CCH cams or don't.
But no amount of endless restatement of painfully obvious history, events, or facts here is going to make even the slightest difference. Hysteria, hyperbole, and drama, while undoubtably feeling marvelous, contribute nothing to the situation. The reality of CCH - that of a few people who for twenty years made a much heralded product before getting in way over their heads in the marketplace - is not affected by any of this. This same crew of people will head to work in Wyoming tomorrow trying to figure out how to navigate the changes they know all too well they have to make. That's the reality - people going to work tomorrow trying to figure out how to do things better than they did today. Is it a great picture? No. Is it the only picture we or they have? Yes. That's reality and nothing will change that.
Again, don't buy or use Aliens if that picture is too much for you to deal with. It's as simple as that. Yet again, we here only have two options - see them through it or sink them. It's entirely up to you. But hysteria, drama, making bad inferences, misstating facts, and otherwise distorting reality is fairly counterproductive to either aim and amounts to little more than static.
[note to iamwallress: and when that static reaches the epic and ridiculous proportions danieladaniela reach it provokes a response from me. Did you read all of her posts on this matter? If you did you'll see this is the only person I've dealt with this way and nothing, language or no, has change in her recent clueless diatribe.]
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deleted
Deleted
Feb 22, 2006, 10:20 PM
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I own a construction business as well Tradgal,20 years and about 50 employees. I have never had any employees that did not make mistakes.I've had structural engineers that made huge mistakes caught by guys at the lumberyard.Everybody makes mistakes,not everyone realizes the potential seriousness of them,like a person that works in shipping.I make lot's of mistakes,and then correct them.If you can afford to dismiss everyone that screws up you are working in a lot slower economy than I am.
So let's say you build a house tradgal, and someone tacks the stairs in place and it never gets nailed off. The owners move in and the stairs come down,they are not hurt but they are pissed.Are you going to recall all the houses you built?It's a life and death situation potentially right?You should have to take back all the houses you built right?
Nah,just the ones since Joe started building stairs in November of 2004,so it's just a couple of million dollars worth, no problem right? It's the right thing to do.You can't resell them due to the manufacturing process,but I'm sure that won't deter you,after all business is business right?
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billl7
Feb 22, 2006, 10:31 PM
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In reply to: As hypothetical manager, of course I bear even a greater responsibility for the blunder. That's why I would fire her. I don't know that any other employee that could potentially be hired would not make the same mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. But, there are cetain mistakes that cannot be forgiven. This tiny mistake could have proven fatal.
At worse, this would be using Diane as a scapegoat without having to address the main problem at all. At best, it would allow a manager/owner to survive a crisis and grant him/her a shot at trying to do better next time. Ugh.
Business may be business but it's not the same between our two views.
Bill
Edit: I realized after this post that you are still assuming that manager did not set up the employee to fail. Why?
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healyje
Feb 22, 2006, 10:41 PM
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I personally would guess that Diane is the essential glue that makes the place run to begin with and not some faceless drone or "worker". That she f#cked up while dealing with the added initial demands and stress of the brazing issue was an unfortunate incident but it was one absolutely typical of companies in this particular state. Firing the office manager that likely holds things together is not going to do them or anyone else any good.
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jimdavis
Feb 22, 2006, 10:58 PM
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In reply to: Again, don't buy or use Aliens if that picture is too much for you to deal with. It's as simple as that. hysteria, drama, making bad inferences, misstating facts, and otherwise distorting reality is fairly counterproductive to either aim and amounts to little more than static.
Those of us who've been vocal against CCH have our reasons, which are rooted in fact.
Your role as a spokesperson for CCH was helpful at first. As it seems that Dave is swamped with work to do, having you to fill us in on the process was a help. That way we all didn't have to bombard Dave with all the same phone calls.
But now, your coming after those of use with issues...and loosing ground with a lot of people.
Your posting nothing more than "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all." Well, ya know what...we don't need an online mother.
CCH has had too many significant mistakes in recent history for all of us to sit back and wait around with our thumbs up our butts, waiting for them to get the act together. In November of 2004 they made the call to sacrifice quality for a higher output. Dave evidently never went through, step-by-step with his new sub-contractor, how to make his life-saving equipment. That's HUGE!!!
If that weren't big enough of a fuck-up...they never tested a batch of the new cams, made by a different person, who didn't understand the manufacturing process.
They let an unfinished cam slip out.....big fuck up (and I don't think it's appropriate to flame Diane for 1 error...she didn't know, I blame whoever told her to do it.) Maybe she runs the books for them, and does a great job....good! Keep her around! I'd change how products are located, and labeled though...so it doesn't happen again, though.
:arrow: But CCH dropped the ball. It's not unreasonable for us to hold them to the same standards as their peers. The fact that they didn't have a self interest in holding THEMSELVES to the same standards as their peers says a lot to us, though.
I'd agree with who ever it was that called you out for your scare tactics of "aliens won't ever get made again, if CCH goes under".
BULLSHIT! Everyone lost trust in CCH, and their complete lack of quality control. Everyone still LOVES the design.
You really think Trango, Mammut, WC, BD would have a tough time selling one of the best selling micro-cams? After they run a marketing campaign on how they brought the manufacturing process up to date? And how they can guarantee quality on them? Shit, they could change the sling on them and inspire more confidence on them if it said BD across the Trigger bar.
Our stigma is with CCH, not the design.
Selling that patent would be the best thing for climbing wanting to buy their products. UNLESS BD buys it and suppresses it so they can push their new overpriced C3's on everyone.....which I could easily see happening.
I would love to see those things get made by a different manufacturer that could inspire some actual confidence in the manufacturing process the product goes though.
Healyje....I think a lot of us are done listening to your babble. Feel free to insult me...tell me that my opinions are wrong...that CCH can't be held to the same standards as their competetors...that I'm not following the Golden Rule...whatever you like.
I've made my opinion, I'm vocal about it, and I think these forums are the right place to do just that.
Cheers,
Jim
edit: sleeping error- "trigger bar", not "trigger bad"
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jakedatc
Feb 22, 2006, 11:22 PM
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Well said Jim.. and Agreed. Joe has been deflecting heat from Dave that should be felt full temperature.
there's no way Aliens would die if CCH went down. Someone would step up and buy it. toss out one ad on RC or Climbing "we bought the Alien patent and are now 3 sigma certified" boom aliens are back on racks again.
myself.. returned my non dimpled cam to EMS because i was not satisfied by
a) the inicial response of "HOAX!"
b) the lack of apology in that regard
c) *edit* Their lack of explaining in the recall that it was an outside contractor that assembled the defective cams that were marked with a dimple(to identify them as cams not built in house)
CCH has been playing this like no one is really paying attention. including sending someone else to face the heat instead of stepping to the plate and answering for themselves.
Metolius ultralight TCU's look bomber to me
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healyje
Feb 22, 2006, 11:30 PM
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Jim,
If you could simply point out which part of your post contains a new fact, a new conclusion, or something that hasn't already been gone over ad nausem I'm up for it. But outside of your opinion on the patent sale I see nothing whatsoever new that you, I, and a half dozen other people haven't discussed again and again and that wasn't already painfully obvious without any conversation at all. And for about twentieth time - I'm am neither a spokesman for CCH nor a particular fan of Aliens as a cam. And if you bothered to read my locked post to them you'll see I am one of the few folks consistently confronting CCH with detailed facts and clear requests for specific remedies.
Again, tell me how any amount of "Oh my f#cking god! They did xxxx! That is huge! is useful to me, CCH or anyone else, particularly when it a) isn't news and b) CCH and everone else is already painfully aware of just how huge it is at this point. So, to quote your post, exactly what specific "issues" do you (or anyone else) have with CCH that they, I, or anyone else can address with a response?
- Got a dimpled cam? Send it in.
- Got a cam with some other defect? Take photos, Call Dave.
- Have QC suggestion? Email it to CCH.
- Want to change their internal processes? Buy CCH or get a job there.
- Got a specific question for Dave germaine to accomplishing something? Call or email Dave or post it here and I'll try to ask him if you don't get an answer.
At this point in the game we know things are all f#cked up. The only thing that is remotely useful at this point after acknowledging that is going to be a calm, objective, and reality-based dialogue based on facts where we can have impact on the situation. On licensing, I'm not using a "scare tactic" but simply stating my opinion that it is far more likely that the design would be licensed from a going concern than a failed one. That's my opinion, not a "tactic".
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billl7
Feb 22, 2006, 11:36 PM
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In reply to: c) Their blatent lie on the website Quality control "This allows us to control the manufacturing processes from start to finish, eliminating possible errors from outside contractors." s--- and no where in their recall do they admit that it was an outside contractor that effed up.
Other than that, I don't have much of a problem with your or jimdavis' rants (no offense intended). As you said before, CCH should feel the heat and I think it is safe to say that Joseph does not disagree.
Bill
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jakedatc
Feb 22, 2006, 11:55 PM
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In reply to: And for about twentieth time - I'm am neither a spokesman for CCH
HA, Then exactly what is this
In reply to: My interest isn't even in being a "liaison" so much as a constructive "facilitator" to the degree I can.
You sound like a press secretary that's trying to do serious damage control to the administration. Ari Fleisher would be proud.
This is new
In reply to: Healyje....I think a lot of us are done listening to your babble.
For someone that is trying to promote new thoughts.. almost all of your posts sound the exact same to me. "if you dont like it.. dont buy it"
Bill you're right... nifty wording to make it look better than it is. kinda like "made in america.../tiny letters. assembled in a cave north of hong kong. i'll edit that point out.. the other concerns are still valid
Joe. A question that has not been answered.
Why has there been no apology to the owner of the failed cam for calling it a hoax :?:
The only thing Dave seemed to do was edit his post to change it to look like he was taking care of it the whole time.
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healyje
Feb 22, 2006, 11:59 PM
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In reply to: Joe has been deflecting heat from Dave that should be felt full temperature.
Actually, I have deflected nothing and I can assure you Dave has no shortage of burns at this point - I've inflicted several of them.
In reply to: here's no way Aliens would die if CCH went down. Someone would step up and buy it. toss out one ad on RC or Climbing "we bought the Alien patent and are now 3 sigma certified" boom aliens are back on racks again.
Again, we simply disagree.
In reply to: c) Their blatent lie on the website Quality control "This allows us to control the manufacturing processes from start to finish, eliminating possible errors from outside contractors." s--- and no where in their recall do they admit that it was an outside contractor that effed up.
This verbage and language is exactly the kind of dramatic hyperbole I'm talking about Jake. Communications and web-savvy are clearly not Dave's strong suites. He had someone put one up for him long ago and clearly never bothered to maintain it given it had the wrong email and address on it until this fiasco. He still doesn't maintain it but has arrange for someone to work on it. He didn't intentionally or blatantly "lie" about anything.
In reply to: CCH has been playing this like no one is really paying attention. including sending someone else to face the heat instead of stepping to the plate and answering for themselves.
And here is a good example of useless inference when you have no idea what Dave is doing. Dave has and is buried up to his eyeballs in dealing with all this and simply isn't an Internet sort of guy. If he were CCH would likely be a modern manufacturing operation instead of a artisan outfit. And no one "sent" me here or anywhere else. Another lame inference, particularly if you bothered to read any of my posts.
In reply to: Metolius ultralight TCU's look bomber to me
That's my cam of choice...
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billl7
Feb 23, 2006, 12:23 AM
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In reply to: ... nifty wording to make it look better than it is. kinda like "made in america.../tiny letters. assembled in a cave north of hong kong. i'll edit that point out.. the other concerns are still valid
And so CCH appears very practiced at staying just on the right side of absolute correctness, in a stance where incorrect but commonly made inferences are to their advantage; they really need to take a wholehearted step in the direction of the well-being of their customers - or quit. It seems clear to me that unless they clarify these mis-perceptions then they are still walking the line and really don't have the customer's interest at heart, sadly.
Bill
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jsj42
Feb 23, 2006, 12:35 AM
Post #125 of 199
(29535 views)
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Registered: Dec 24, 2002
Posts: 374
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Jim,
Every single point you made in your last post I agree with 100%. Thank you!
Josh
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