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healyje
Feb 23, 2006, 12:40 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ... nifty wording to make it look better than it is. kinda like "made in america.../tiny letters. assembled in a cave north of hong kong. i'll edit that point out.. the other concerns are still valid And so CCH appears very practiced at staying just on the right side of absolute correctness, in a stance where incorrect but commonly made inferences are to their advantage...
If they were terribly practiced at any aspect of PR or communications then this wouldn't all be such a messy textbook case of how not to use the Internet. They haven't deliberately practiced anything other than way too much accusatory denial at the beginning of this whole episode. Fortunately they are past the "denial" stage and on to real rehabilatative steps...
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jakedatc
Feb 23, 2006, 12:56 AM
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I edited the post about the QC statement to correct my mistake.
again.
A question that has not been answered.
Why has there been no apology to the owner of the failed cam for calling it a hoax :?:
Falling at the beginning of the performance still requires deductions from technical and artistic scores.
my opinion: companys without a micro cam. trango, rock empire, dmm(tho i dunno if they'd want a single stem), Omega pacific. or preventative buying by BD or WC to either sink or combine features.
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billl7
Feb 23, 2006, 1:21 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: And so CCH appears very practiced at staying just on the right side of absolute correctness, in a stance where incorrect but commonly made inferences are to their advantage... If they were terribly practiced at any aspect of PR or communications then this wouldn't all be such a messy textbook case of how not to use the Internet. They haven't deliberately practiced anything other than way too much accusatory denial at the beginning of this whole episode. Fortunately they are past the "denial" stage and on to real rehabilatative steps...
Bill
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jimdavis
Feb 23, 2006, 3:55 AM
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In reply to: So, to quote your post, exactly what specific "issues" do you ( or anyone else) have with CCH that they, I, or anyone else can address with a response?
My issues are well listed, and agreed with by more than a few people.
The responce I'm looking for? I put it up on page 3....
In reply to: Pull your products off the market, hire an ouside firm to evaluate your setup, go through your process step-by-step and think about how you could fuck it up (then put measures in place to prevent it) ....THEN, make it all public, replace/ test every cam you've released since you started having problems... THEN, MAYBE I'll climb above one of your cams. (but probablty not before I park a TCU right under it...)
That, or sell the patent off to someone who will produce them.
I'll add something to that. A formal appoligy to the climbing community and Alien owners, along with a list of things they plan to do to bring the company up to snuff.
That's what I'm looking for...what about the rest of you? Is that too much to ask?
Jim
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healyje
Feb 23, 2006, 4:13 AM
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In reply to: Pull your products off the market,
Not going to happen, they'd tank overnight. Again, no other company does this either.
In reply to: hire an ouside firm to evaluate your setup,
They have and will be getting ISO certified over the next year or so which is a very typical implementation timeframe.
In reply to: go through your process step-by-step and think about how you could f--- it up (then put measures in place to prevent it) ...
Dave is doing that every day at this point...
In reply to: THEN, make it all public, ...
I have no idea what it is that he will make public beyond the fact that they have engaged resources to work on formalizing QC at CCH. No other company recalling gear has ever done this.
In reply to: replace/ test every cam you've released since you started having problems...
Never going to happen and you don't see Ford or Toyota replacing ever car they've made during a recall period. Totally unrealistic. They are replacing all cams identified as having been through the subcontractor's door.
In reply to: That, or sell the patent off to someone who will produce them.
That may very well happen, but again, less likely if they tank IMHO.
In reply to: A formal appoligy to the climbing community and Alien owners.
I would modify that to a real heartfelt apology to Kevin the OP and I've suggested that several times. Beyond that a statement of regret to RC.com users over the initial response and handling would certainly be in order.
In reply to: A list of things they plan to do to bring the company up to snuff.
Again, some statement of the plan to formalize QC process with in the company would be helpful. Don't expect a detailed list of their internal processes.
In reply to: That's what I'm looking for...what about the rest of you? Is that too much to ask?
With the caveats I've laid out I don't think it is and I and others have told Dave as much and quite a bit more besides...
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gunksgoer
Feb 23, 2006, 4:34 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: And for about twentieth time - I'm am neither a spokesman for CCH HA, Then exactly what is this In reply to: My interest isn't even in being a "liaison" so much as a constructive "facilitator" to the degree I can. Looks nice on paper but in fact it's exactly what you're sounding like. You sound like a press secretary that's trying to do serious damage control to the administration.
I agree, and if Healyje isnt cch's spokesperson, hes definatly being their tool.
Although this thread has been entertaining, I think that little more can be accomplished through arguing. Well, at least untill more information is brought to the table.
Personally I think that cch will lose their patent, and it will be bought by one of the established companies and turned around. Ill start the bidding at 1$...
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healyje
Feb 23, 2006, 5:20 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: And for about twentieth time - I'm am neither a spokesman for CCH HA, Then exactly what is this?
Jake, if you would actually read my posts in this thread I've explained my motives and interests quite clearly.
In reply to: I agree, and if Healyje isnt cch's spokesperson, hes definatly being their tool
Ditto for you gunksgoer. If you or anyone else still comes to that conclusion after reading my earlier posts in this thread and this post in the locked recall thread then, well, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I'm actually doing more than simply talking about it all. I'm actually demanding action and then following through on seeing if it occurs and have been for about a year now. In that same vein I intend to follow things up here as well until we see a conclusion on CCH one way or the other.
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jimdavis
Feb 23, 2006, 5:37 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Pull your products off the market, Not going to happen, they'd tank overnight. Again, no other company does this either.
They have 1 product....which has had 3 signifigant problems associated with it in the past year or so.
This isn't Ford replacing a door joint....
Their quality is shakey at best right now....a lot of people are returning their Aliens, selling them off, etc....
If they want to put confidence back in their product, they need to prove that they all are up to par.
Say they do get their act together and start making more Aliens under better quality control....then we have 2 years worth of shakey Aliens floating around, that no-one wants anything to do with. They should get called back in, run under a microscope (figure of speach) and pull tested, THEN get put back on the market with a big-ass seal of approval.
Whether it's practicle or not, it's about the only thing that's gonna put our minds at ease. CCH had a big f*ck up, the clean up is gonna need to be just as big.
Jim
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jakedatc
Feb 23, 2006, 6:02 AM
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Joe ur right. it's really not what you are doing, it's what they are not. They should have someone that can field questions without having to mess up shop life. Cept that they are only 2 guys and a 80kg dog (would be perfect for pull testing eh?) and don't have someone to do that.
oh well i'm done for now.. we'll see how things turn out.
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8flood8
Feb 23, 2006, 7:33 AM
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i wonder if he'll ever get tired of posting responses to everyone. heh. i mean really... if we are a mob, we've endless energy to expend on this thread.
i mean he ain't fuckin al gore is he? Healyj you didn't invent the internet, so get your panties out of a bunch, if people are angry and want to express it.
it's their right.
POST ON THE INTERNET OR DON'T ITS YOUR CHOICE.
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the_mitt
Feb 23, 2006, 8:59 AM
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(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 14, 2006, 8:48 PM)
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healyje
Feb 23, 2006, 10:57 AM
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In reply to: Ok I have a question for you Joseph. Have you in the past received any product or money in the form of payment or stipend from CCH? Have you been promised a job or any future stipend from CCH?
Product? No. Money? No. Stipend? No. Job? No. Future Stipend (, Money, Product, or job)? No. I already have two sets of Hybrids and don't like regular Aliens. I make plenty of money with my own business and don't need Dave's. Again, if you read my posts earlier in this thread I clearly state my motives and interests in this matter and they have not changed.
In reply to: 1. I wish to see CCH go under and close their doors. 2. I care as much for the success of CCH as they do about my safety. 3. If they close their doors and we lose aliens - I can live with that 4. I will not buy another alien and recommend that others do not as well for their own safety. As CCH cannot guarantee a safe product.
Those are all legitimate choices.
In reply to: 5. healyje has been as unreasonable with defending CCH as CCH has been with the production of their product, and further makes me want to put down the company.
That's your opinion, but again it really doesn't sound as though you've read my posts in the matter. I haven't at any point "defended" CCH. I've been working steadily to get them to deal with these issues. "Dealing", however, is entirely dependent on the realities and limitations that exist in their shop. I merely reiterate those realities and the realistic potential for various remedies that flow from them.
In reply to: 6. I don't trust a company that has the office manager involved in production.
Again, a completely legitimate perogative.
In reply to: 7. Dave is an asshole for accusing the op for the hoax.
Welll, that language isn't particularly helpful, but then neither was Dave's initial posts in response to Kevin, the OP in the brazing issue.
In reply to: 8. I would love to hear from Dave however I doubt that he has the balls to come back on here (yes I'm calling you out Dave).
Aside from the dramatics, Dave I suspect is, a) pretty damn busy replacing dimpled cams, and b) given his past performance, probably not his own best spokesperson for the Internet. I am not his spokesperson, but merely - as I've repeatedly stated - someone committed to seeing that these quality issues actually get addressed in as timely a manner as possible by CCH. Dave will have to speak for himself and / or hire someone to help him communicate more effectively with his customers and the climbing public. My understanding is that once they get the metallurgist's report back and through the CPSC process they do intend to post a more detailed response on their web site. I do not know of their intentions relative to posting here, though I will definitely be recommending they cross-post anything they want to say here and if they don't I will.
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tradgal
Feb 23, 2006, 2:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: As hypothetical manager, of course I bear even a greater responsibility for the blunder. That's why I would fire her. I don't know that any other employee that could potentially be hired would not make the same mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. But, there are cetain mistakes that cannot be forgiven. This tiny mistake could have proven fatal. (I don't intend to take this statement out of context - say so if you think I am.) At worse, this would be using Diane as a scapegoat without having to address the main problem at all. At best, it would allow a manager/owner to survive a crisis and grant him/her a shot at trying to do better next time. Ugh. Business may be business but it's not the same between our two views. Bill Edit: I realized after this post that you are still assuming that manager did not set up the employee to fail. Why?
Lots of posting since my last post, so I will do my best to answer everything...
First, I would like to make it clear that I have NO idea whether Diane was actually fired or if she will be fired. These are just my thoughts on what I would do in Dave's situation.
Bill, I think you did take what I said a little out of context. I don't think Dave is trying to use anyone as a scapegoat. I also wrote:
In reply to: Don't get me wrong--Dave has certainly made MANY mistakes. But, he owns the business. He can't very well go firing himself now can he? But, what he can do--is no longer outsource work. he can update his website. Strive to offer better customer service. Improve quality control. And eliminate any and all weak links in his system to regain trust from his customers. To regain loyalty. Whether that will work, remains to be seen.
I also don't quite understand what you meant about Dave setting an employee up to fail. If you mean it as literal as I am reading it, I SURELY would hope no one would set someone up to fail in that manner. I hope that it was an honest mistake on Diane's part.
That being said--mistakes do happen. To address tomcat...this particular mistake was a little too costly. If my subcontractors didn't fully secure a set of stairs potentially causing injury to someone--they would no longer work for me. I wouldn't recall all those homes as you put it--but I would be sure to have an engineer and myself inspect all sets of stairs to be sure it was an isolated incident both for the safety of the homeowner and my company.
I do guess that i work in a slower paced economy than you. But, CCH and others who produce multiple cams a day--work respectively in a faster paced economy, only with smaller ticket prices on their product. Companies like that can't afford to have mistakes like that happen. They don't know the names and addresses of every single cam's new owner.
What if Diane has done this multiple times? What if she reached in the wrong bin multiple times? If she is the "glue" that holds that operation together, well, I would be looking for a different kind of glue. As it has been said, this is a small company. And, with small companies, there are a small number of employees probably acting in many different job descriptions. If Diane didn't know the difference between a finished cam and an unfinished cam--then she 1. should have asked! 2. shouldn't have broken protocal and not let Dave see the cam before shipment.
As they say, the "road to hell is paved with good intentions." Diane, I am sure, had good intentions--but she made a big, costly mistake for both herself and the future of CCH.
And, by the way...Diane is the person who drop shipped my order to me two years ago? I guess I am lucky she reached into the right bin? And, in an effort not to litter this thread with posts that only a few may want to hear--any more of our arguing (probably futile disagreements and speculations, my own comments included :D ) should be done through PM's. Thanks.
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billl7
Feb 23, 2006, 3:16 PM
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In reply to: Bill, I think you did take what I said a little out of context. I don't think Dave is trying to use anyone as a scapegoat. I also wrote: In reply to: Don't get me wrong--Dave has certainly made MANY mistakes. But, he owns the business. He can't very well go firing himself now can he? But, what he can do--is no longer outsource work. he can update his website. Strive to offer better customer service. Improve quality control. And eliminate any and all weak links in his system to regain trust from his customers. To regain loyalty. Whether that will work, remains to be seen. I also don't quite understand what you meant about Dave setting an employee up to fail. If you mean it as literal as I am reading it, I SURELY would hope no one would set someone up to fail in that manner. I hope that it was an honest mistake on Diane's part.
I don't mean intentionally setting up. I mean that managers make mistakes too: "training, admin, etc." or close to that. Lots of evidence in the case of CCH that management is at the source of the problems.
I think I was mainly irritated at your very first one-liner which came across as haughty along the lines of "Dianne, is that you in the unemployment line." I wouldn't have said "haughty" here except that you also maintain that Diane should be fired despite what appears to be an "honest" mistake and despite your having very limited knowledge of the circumstances - and second or third hand knowledge at that.
And, totally one-sided of you to write a lengthy follow-up in the thread and then think everyone should henceforth PM each other.
Bill
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tgreene
Feb 23, 2006, 3:17 PM
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I won't say much at this point, but I will say that there have been a few of us in regular (as in near daily) communication w/ Dave.
Changes are being made, suggestions that would be considered unreasonable by most are being looked into, and major QC measures are in fact in place.
Every time I speak with Dave, he sounds likes he's about ready to breakdown, because he IS a climber, and he DOES care first and foremost about climber safety.
The bottom line is this: YES, there are a few of us with varying fields of expertise that are essentially donating our time to assist in any way possible, but it all comes down to Dave having to make the choices to see these suggestions through...
For CCH to make overnight changes at the mere suggestions or recommendations of strangers that he's only ever spoken with on the phone, is a pretty remarkable statement in its own right, because we're simply outsiders. Some of us do care enough to have stepped up to the plate to work w/ Dave, and that's what matters at this point. As Joseph has stated numerous times, change doesn't happen overnight, and generally takes the better part of a year, but in this instance, change has been effected in the shortest amount of time imaginable.
Also keep in mind that I'm not defending anyone either, but what has happened in the past, can only be changed in the future... We can revisit the past as often as we want, but why..? On the other hand, if we really want to take a complete look at the overall picture, CCH has produced in the neighborhood of 100k cams in the past 20 years, and during that time there have only been 2 complete failures of gear in use. Thankfully MGear did step up and have outside testing done, because that kept others' safe.
So we're all on the same page here, my compensation for doing everything I'm doing (and the scope of it gets bigger every day), will be a complete set of Aliens and Hybrids. From a logistical standpoint, if I were charging actual money for my services, I would have already earned the equivalent of at least 2 full sets of each, and I've barely even touched the tip of the iceberg...
I have also spoken with a couple people that are very well known and high up in the climbing community, in regards to methodology and implementation of my suggestions, to be sure we're doing the right thing for all involved (CCH and the climbing community as a whole). The general consensus is that we're definitely on the right track, and so far Dave is listening to and acting upon each and every suggestion.
-Tim
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louielouie
Feb 23, 2006, 3:17 PM
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Well, here is my opinion:
1. I would cry if CCH went out of business and there would be no more Aliens.
2. I'll add a set of hybrids + gray, red, gold & orange aliens to my rack as soon as I can get hold of them.
3. I inspect & bounce-test new gear.
4. There are way too many whining crybabies in the world.
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healyje
Feb 23, 2006, 3:46 PM
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In reply to: Lots of evidence in the case of CCH that management is at the source of the problems.
Tradgal and Bill7,
I know you have businesses, but to some extent there is no such thing as an abstract entity such as "managers" "management" at CCH or many single owner businesses - here is only Dave at CCH. I personally think people using these abstract "corporate" labels for various aspects of CCH's business such as "management", "worker", "quality controller" causes some of the problems in the dialogue here as I don't think these things really exist at CCH in the way folks typically interpret them to mean. Those labels tend to be associated with infrastructure and heirarchy that simply doesn't currently exist at CCH. Again, this is a craft/artisan operation and there isn't a reality like that; the reality is there is Dave, Diane, and a few other folks cranking out cams - or they were, now they're working overtime replacing/repairing cams. Those abstract terms may be great for some aspects of a generic 'woulda, coulda,, shoulda' discussions but the problem is I don't think they have much meaning or revalence to the way CCH's shop, business, or culture is organized.
No one is glossing over or dismissing a single CCH failing. The issue in each instance, however, is what is the scope and what can realistically be done about it given the resources and constraints in their shop. They don't have unlimited funds, time, or employees yet still have to come up with some way to change their processes and culture. That simply isn't going to happen overnight any more than you're going to lose that ten pounds you've been meaning to lose tomorrow. They've put initial QC measures in place, are looking at more, and have engaged help for an ISO effort. They are doing what they can with the time, funding, and resources available to them. Regardless of what happened or what we say here they simply cannot do more than what they are doing and even that is taking some serious daily prioritizing. Also, that they've engaged someone like TGreene to help with PR (I'm assuming that's your intended role) is also a sign of steps in the right direction.
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tradgal
Feb 23, 2006, 3:54 PM
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In reply to: And, totally one-sided of you to write a lengthy follow-up in the thread and then think everyone should henceforth PM each other.
I think this particular thread should be left for facts--not fiction. News, not speculation. I would like to thank those who have been contacting CCH directly to get updates about this situation--as that news does affect us all.
Bill, please see my PM to you.
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tgreene
Feb 23, 2006, 4:02 PM
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In reply to: Also, that they've engaged someone like TGreene to help with PR ( I'm assuming that's your intended role) is also a sign of steps in the right direction. |
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billl7
Feb 23, 2006, 5:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: And, totally one-sided of you to write a lengthy follow-up in the thread and then think everyone should henceforth PM each other. I think this particular thread should be left for facts--not fiction. News, not speculation. I would like to thank those who have been contacting CCH directly to get updates about this situation--as that news does affect us all. Bill, please see my PM to you.
Joseph, You are right about my using abstract business concepts. I have little personal understanding of the details within CCH other than your considerable input (mean that positively). Point well taken: at some point one must get down to the brass tacks.
tgreene, Thanks for the additional details. Wishing now that I had not vented some of my frustrations/irritations with CCH, with some of the discussions here.
Bill
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nuts_r_us
Feb 23, 2006, 5:16 PM
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Joe Healy: I initially appreciated your hard work and taking the reins in the early days of the Alien issue. Even to this day you make some good points. However, these internet forums serve many purposes, not all of which neccesarily need to be "new information" or the like. They also are for complaining, praising and folks expressing their happiness or discontent. I have tried not to express my discontent with Dave/CCH here (although I think I did reply to the initial thread a while back), since so many others are doing so, and my voice is not needed. I am far too lazy for regular posting on this topic. However, every time you ask people to stop posting with anything less than brand new information it makes me (and apparantly others) want to post even more to express their discontent. You do not own this thread nor this forum. So please stop trying to influence what is posted. Really, it is getting old. People can post whatever they want as long as it does not violate the TOS. Danieladaniela please keep posting. You too Jim. And you too the Mitt. Your seven points below are exactly how I feel about this now. If you see some Aliens on ebay in the coming weeks they might be coming from my rack.
In reply to: 1. I wish to see CCH go under and close their doors. 2. I care as much for the success of CCH as they do about my safety. 3. If they close their doors and we lose aliens - I can live with that. 4. I will not buy another alien and recommend that others do not as well for their own safety. As CCH cannot guarantee a safe product. 5. healyje has been as unreasonable with defending CCH as CCH has been with the production of their product, and further makes me want to put down the company. 6. I don't trust a company that has the office manager involved in production. 7. Dave is an asshole for accusing the op for the hoax. Mitt |
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clayman
Feb 23, 2006, 5:37 PM
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Does anybody know what MGear's position is in all this? They're not selling any aliens now, are they waiting to see what unfolds or have they severed their relationship with CCH altogether? Also, REI and GearExpress seems to have done the same thing, atleast on their website there arn't any aliens anymore.
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healyje
Feb 23, 2006, 6:20 PM
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In reply to: Does anybody know what MGear's position is in all this? They're not selling any aliens now, are they waiting to see what unfolds or have they severed their relationship with CCH altogether? Also, REI and GearExpress seems to have done the same thing, atleast on their website there arn't any aliens anymore.
I don't know. I would be surprised if REI went down that road again, but I would expect shops and online stores that have pulled them would likely carry them again if and when they are satisfied that CCH has effectively dealt with these issues. Paul from MGear and other retailers can speak to this point for themselves if they decide to do so. I suspect few have made any hard and fast permanent decisions about it all at this point.
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jakedatc
Feb 23, 2006, 6:33 PM
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It's not rei but this is from the bottom of EMS's recall page.
In reply to: When Will A Replacement Be Available? If you would like to be notified when 1st quality replacement cams are available, please contact EMS customer service at customerservice@ems.com or call us at 1-888-463-6367
so they will be carrying them again it seems once they get new shipments in
edited to fix my tags
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the_mitt
Feb 24, 2006, 8:08 AM
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(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 19, 2006, 6:33 PM)
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