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golsen
Feb 24, 2006, 6:58 PM
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I have two engineering degrees and I work at a plant that destroys weapons of mass destruction (50 year old rockets filled with nerve gas). Coupled with professional registration and 15 years of experience I feel somewhat professionally qualified to comment on the problems that CCH is experiencing and the types of programs that are required to ensure a safe product each and every time.
However, forget about all of that professional stuff for a moment. If you climbed with someone who put your life into jeopardy two to three times in a short time frame (then got defensive when you pointed out their shortcomings) would you put your life into their hands again? You don’t need two engineering degrees to arrive at the sensible answer.
Obviously, CCH needs help. My guess is that they need more help than they can understand in terms of being able to produce a reliable product let alone their PR department…
Last year I finally decided to replace some of my old stuff. Time to replace some of those 20 year old TCU’s, the original thin crack pro. Because of some peoples reports about how great Aliens were, I bought several. I have not done some of the sustained aid routes on El Cap so I didn’t really need them for sustained aid. I will be returning these Aliens to REI and going back to Metolius, WC and/or BD. Much the same as preferring to climb with that old partner who may not be perfect all of the time, but when roped up with him (or her) you know their belays are bomber and they will catch your ass when you need them too…
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tgreene
Feb 24, 2006, 7:02 PM
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A couple of years ago, I received a phone call from an irate individual that had purchased a product that I designed and manufactured... He purchased it off of eBay, where I sold several of them before national distributors picked up my products. He also purchased it as a usedpiece of equipment, from another person claiming to have purchased directly from me... Well, that all sounded pretty normal.
The reason he called, was to inform me that my product was the biggest most worthless POS he had ever seen, let alone drop $125 on. In order to make the customer happy (even though he was directly my customer), I took down his name and address and fired a brand new unit off to him. After he received it, he calls back to tell me how much nicer the unit I sent was, and asked how an obviously shoody prototype slipped through the cracks... He then went on to say how the new materials were superior to the other unit. A huge red flag went up when he said that, so I asked for detailed pictures, to which he agreed.
A couple of days latert, I open my email and was aghast at what I saw, because it damn sure wasn't anything I ever designed or built, yet MY NAME was prominately displayed on it, as it also was advertised in the eBay add.
In a rush to keep a customer happy, I was screwed, and then when attempting to go after the person hawking the shitty knockoffs, my name and reputation began to be smeared around on the most prominent reef keeping website... It was very much a damned if you do, double damned if you don't situation. Because of this fiasco, sales suddenly dropped off, even though I did absolutely nothing wrong, and immediately acted in the best interests of the end user.
I know what it's like to be a small manufacturing business that's caught in a lose~lose situation.
Thank God in my particular situation, the end user contacted me first. It was the kid selling the worthless knockoffs that began spreading false information. In the end, I was out a lot of time and the dollar value of this particular electronic controller, I also received a lot of bad press if you will, as well as distributors suddenly wanting to remove themselves from further involvement. Ultimately I lost out big, because of one person that attempted to scam another. About 6 months later, I legally signed my company over to another company, because too much damage had been done for me to be able to continue on.
This is precisely why I posted what I did first thing this morning, because from my own personal experience, you simply don't know if something is real or not, until you have 100% of the facts and figures in front of you.
Until you've walked a mile in another mans shoes, you'll never know how it feels.
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jsj42
Feb 24, 2006, 7:59 PM
Post #178 of 199
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healyje,
I appreciate your post and questions on the thread about my accident -- I'll try to revisit those since it sounds like you're really interested, but I'm worried that my thoughts on them might not be unsatisfyingly simplistic.
This is just my opinion, but it seems like a lot of your posts in this thread say the same thing repeatedly, and perhaps that's why people keep challenging what you say repeatedly -- they feel like you aren't acknowledging their (valid) criticisms of CCH.
You've said a couple times what amounts to "if you don't like/trust what's going on with Aliens, then don't buy them." This is absolutely true, but that doesn't mean that people who don't like it can't voice their dislike (or, more relevantly, voice exactly what they don't like) here in this forum. You've also said that people shouldn't spread false information or hysteria, and that part of your purpose in posting is to prevent that. Well, if people want to post what they *think* or *suspect* is going on with Aliens or CCH, they can do that. You're perfectly entitled to post what you think or suspect is going on that may counter that -- and if you have proof, then all the better.
Honestly, the pictures I've seen of broken Aliens, the multitude of voices from different sources that back up these anecdotes (including the decisions made by REI, mgear, EMS), and my own personal experiences with Dave and CCH speak a lot more loudly and credibly than two individuals' (you and tgreene) statements of what is going on with CCH - this is not to say, by any means, that I don't believe you.
I think that the biggest issue is that no matter how much you say (that work is being done to change things at CCH, that Dave made some poor PR decisions but is trying to change, etc), the fact that we haven't seen a statement from CCH themselves (and since the recall they DID issue has the feel of being *reactive to bad press* rather than proactive or at least a response to the actual defect) speaks volumes.
OK, one other thing to say, and this is not directed to you, healyje, but to anyone who actually cares to read it:
I believe that Dave is an artisan and a small business owner who cares about climbing and makes a (potentially) wonderful product, but it doesn't take a degree in public relations or business ethics to know how to treat customers. From my own personal experience talking to him on the phone I can say that he has lied to me multiple times (perhaps unintentionally, but lying nonetheless). One other clear indicator of lying is the fact that their website touts their cams as being made in house and of controlled quality -- we have clear evidence that this is not the case. It could be explained by saying Dave is not web-savvy and didn't update the website, but I'm sorry, this is his responsibility as a business owner -- if he couldn't handle it, he shouldn't have had the website to begin with. The fact that, a few years ago, he chose to increase his volume exponentially but to not increase the infrastructure to deliver a product of the same quality/consistency is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE, HUGE, HUGE mistake. If he was the only one reaping the consequences of that mistake, that would be fine, but the problem is that we, the climbers who pay $54 per cam (expecting to get the same quality cam that was sold for that price before the increase in production), but are instead getting cams that "might be good" or "might fall apart" (depending on who grabbed which cam off of which pile or whether or not it has a punch mark on it, or whatever), is wrong. People have a right to be pissed.
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healyje
Feb 24, 2006, 8:43 PM
Post #179 of 199
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Josh,
Everyone certainly has a right to be pissed. Everyone also has an absolute right to post unfounded supposition, clueless inferences, wild accusation, hysterical unsubstantiated drama, and to make completely false statements. I have no problem with the former, but do with the latter and from my perspective some posts unfortunately substantially mix the two. I believe I have been completely open to and have openly acknowledged people's legitimate concerns, fears, and perogatives in this matter. I think I've only taken exception in the cases when I believe a post has veered badly away from the realm of "reasonable" expression. Also, I've been posting some of those photos of bad aliens so folks can see them. Trust me, I am not Dave's "friend" or "defender" in this matter, I'm on him about this stuff - I just try to engage him constructively.
As I've said, I and a couple of other's not party to RC have been on Dave relentlessly for quite some time. Again, if you look at my post in the locked recall thread you see I've gone after the specifics of the problems we've seen in Aliens and offered simple specific remedies which have been adopted. I've also followed through with Dave on these matters to insure they get addressed and will continue to do so. I agree with you and others that it's all "HUGE" and Dave would be the first person to agree with you - trust me, he knows it is and also knows he compounded the problem with his initial responses. Also, I still take extreme exception with characterising Dave "failing" his responsibility to update his website as "lying" - negligent yes, lying no - lying by definition implies intent and ineptitude is not intent.
But where I part company with some of you is my only concern has been and remains that going forward legitimate quality concerns are acknowledged and addressed at CCH. Dave's interactions with his customers and the wider climbing community here are completely secondary to me. And I just don't think endlessly rehashing the painfully obvious or flagellating individuals at CCH serves any particularly constructive purpose. I continue to hold Dave and CCH to those issues and to suggest simple QC remedies that can be implemented immediately without cost or a lot of time. The latest suggestions were in response to the recent unswaged incident. Those suggestion were:
"a) No stem wire is to be inserted into a swage fitting unless the the cam is at the swager, the swager is on, and the unit will be pressed as soon as the stem wire is inserted in the swage. That "looped" stem wires will be uninserted from the swage fitting immediately if it is not pressed for any reason. No cam stem wire should exist in a "looped" configuration except for the moment of pressing - ever.
b) All pressed swages will be quality stamped immediately after pressing."
To be honest, I'd like nothing else better than to see Dave sell the operation, take a partner, or license the product. I just think the odds of that happening are way, way better if the company remains intact and remedies what's wrong. Many others, including very experienced and knowledgable climbers I respect like golsen (and many of my friends and partners) disagree with that assessment and that's O.K. - they can operate on their convictions and I'm going to continue operating on mine which will include staying highly engaged with CCH threads on this site.
P.S. I really am interested in your thoughts on soloing and the path that led to them. My partner is in his fifties and is still [frightenly] soloing the odd occasional 5.11 and .12 route. I've known him for 32 years and I still can't say I have a complete handle on it all. I've been roped soloing for three decades and easily half my climbing every year is still roped solos. As part of those routes I invariably do bits of free soloing including entire "easy" pitches. But to me that is quite different than you, my partner, or Reardon planning to launch up a significant route free solo. I've done it once or twice completely spontaneously on routes I knew over the years, each time pre-cognitively knowing I would be absolutely safe, but I've never premeditatedly gone out to look and launch. So pony up on that other thread.
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drector
Feb 24, 2006, 11:47 PM
Post #180 of 199
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In reply to: Everyone also has an absolute right to post unfounded supposition, clueless inferences, wild accusation, hysterical unsubstantiated drama, and to make completely false statements
I'd like to point out that Dave at CCH making improvements to his QC, etc..., is also speculation at this point since he has not made an offical company statement (that I have seen) nor had his new processes inspected by any standards commitee, etc... .
It's possible that he has done nothing to ensure that Aliens are being manufactured and tested in a way that makes them consistently safe (in regard to meeting their stated strength). There is no evidence other than a few people who I don't know on a web forum who post pictures of their business cards and argue on the side of CCH.
I personally would be happy to consider buying a new "tested" Alien if I needed anything like it right now but I don't think anyone should tell others they are speculating when every single statement here on both sides of this story has been speculation.
But it is fun reading.
Dave
P.S. I have taken one fall on an Alien hybrid that was made in 2001. This makes me no more qualified to talk on the subject than my father who doesn't even know what a camming device is but does buy products that have claims about their performance such as Ford cars.
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healyje
Feb 25, 2006, 12:24 AM
Post #181 of 199
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In reply to: I'd like to point out that Dave at CCH making improvements to his QC, etc..., is also speculation at this point since he has not made an offical company statement (that I have seen) nor had his new processes inspected by any standards commitee, etc... . It's possible that he has done nothing to ensure that Aliens are being manufactured and tested in a way that makes them consistently safe (in regard to meeting their stated strength). There is no evidence other than a few people who I don't know on a web forum who post pictures of their business cards and argue on the side of CCH.
Personally I find this a pretty cynical perspective but you're certainly welcome to it. I have seen pull test stamped Aliens, have heard a description of the rig (which Dave seems pretty pleased with). He told me he made the cam lobe test jigs and is using them on each CNC run. He has said they were beginning to stamp all swages post-pressing. In fact he said he was trying to put together a system where every operation/part gets stamped in the process for traceability. I have no problem taking him at his word; if you and others choose not to that's your perogative. Also, I didn't post a business card and I don't "defend" CCH in any way beyond trying to control unrealistic expectations about what remedies can be expected given the realities in their shop. Again, for about the millionth time if anyone bothered to read my post to CCH, I'm actually one of the folks holding their feet to the fire in this matter.
He said he hasn't made a statement yet because he was waiting for the metalurgist's report, the completion of the CPSC Recall, and formalizing a quality strategy. He will be, and I believe TGreene is likely to help him out with it, though I'm not positive about that, and Tim will have to speak for himself. Dave has committed to the ISO cert. and as an ISO auditor I can assure "standards committees" don't inspect anything; they set standards for the auditors that do. In the meantime they have been instituting meaningful quality checks.
In reply to: I personally would be happy to consider buying a new "tested" Alien if I needed anything like it right now but I don't think anyone should tell others they are speculating when every single statement here on both sides of this story has been speculation.
In reply to: P.S. I have taken one fall on an Alien hybrid that was made in 2001. This makes me no more qualified to talk on the subject than my father who doesn't even know what a camming device is but does buy products that have claims about their performance such as Ford cars.
P.S. I have to admit that I'd feel safer above an undimpled Alien than driving in an un-recalled Ford...
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jimdavis
Feb 25, 2006, 5:01 AM
Post #182 of 199
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In reply to: Bill_Coe, the OP in this thread, just bought eight aliens and five of the eight were dimpled. I don't necessarily agree with his having started this thread on RC.com before Chris, the CC.com OP, got back to us with specific details and photos to present here. I also don't necessarily care for the inherent tone of his thread title...
He cross linked a post....which is true in it's title, and it's initial content. It's implications are right on...CCH f#cked up again.
I don't check CC.com, and am glad this got brought over.
Just because bill_coe isn't running damage control for you, doesn't mean you have to question his motives.
Jim
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healyje
Feb 25, 2006, 8:04 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Bill_Coe, the OP in this thread, just bought eight aliens and five of the eight were dimpled. I don't necessarily agree with his having started this thread on RC.com before Chris, the CC.com OP, got back to us with specific details and photos to present here. I also don't necessarily care for the inherent tone of his thread title... He cross linked a post....which is true in it's title, and it's initial content. It's implications are right on...CCH f#cked up again. I don't check CC.com, and am glad this got brought over. Just because bill_coe isn't running damage control for you, doesn't mean you have to question his motives. Jim
You may think Bill's initial post was fine, I didn't, and felt it wasn't particularly objective in tone, did not yet have all the facts or photos from Chris. And Bill is one of my climbing partners and I have a rough idea of what's he was thinking. But he is as free as anyone to post up; I just wish he had waited. And for the record, just as I brought the photos for this incident over, I would have done the cross posting as well, but I would have waited until Chris got us more detail, we got the response from Dave, and had the photos to post.
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tgreene
Feb 25, 2006, 2:12 PM
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billl7
Feb 25, 2006, 7:02 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: It's possible that he has done nothing to ensure that Aliens are being manufactured and tested in a way that makes them consistently safe (in regard to meeting their stated strength). There is no evidence other than a few people who I don't know on a web forum who post pictures of their business cards and argue on the side of CCH. Personally I find this a pretty cynical perspective but you're certainly welcome to it.
Think about. Collect everything that CCH/Dave have said publicly in this regard, the quality of recent products and consider only those. Is the balance objectively in favor of CCH or not? So far I say not.
healyje, the buying public and companies understand about liability with respect to what a company states and what product they produce. I appreciate all the info you have relayed from CCH/Dave. But it MUST carry limited weight because you do not represent CCH/Dave nor will your business/livelihood go down the tubes if you misquote CCH/Dave. There are no consequences for a mistake you may make except for what you can live with within yourself (not attacking your ethics). Don't misunderstand - personally, the info you provide has value. But it won't for everyone, nor should it.
CCH/Dave may have valid reasons for waiting to make a state-of-CCH address. I have no doubt this is true. They also have to accept the uncertainty that fills the intervening vacuum. I have only the best wishes for you in trying to dissipate the great negative potential during this time. But you cannot reach the level of a public statement from CCH/Dave - it starting to sound like you want to do so.
Bill L (not the Bill of the preceding post) <<-- edit
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healyje
Feb 26, 2006, 1:16 AM
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In reply to: CCH/Dave may have valid reasons for waiting to make a state-of-CCH address. I have no doubt this is true. They also have to accept the uncertainty that fills the intervening vacuum.
I'm just relaying what I learned from my conversation from Dave. I would have done something long ago and several times in the interim if it were my company and I totally agree with you that, given the vacuum, he does have to accept what happens instead.
In reply to: But you cannot reach the level of a public statement from CCH/Dave - it starting to sound like you want to do so.
I neither try to speak for Dave nor have any interest whatsoever in doing so. I'm just trying to stick to the facts, relay what I learn, and alternately hold CCH accountable and suggest any QC ideas I think might help remedy the process problems.
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billl7
Feb 26, 2006, 2:49 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: But you cannot reach the level of a public statement from CCH/Dave - it starting to sound like you want to do so. I neither try to speak for Dave nor have any interest whatsoever in doing so. I'm just trying to stick to the facts, relay what I learn, and alternately hold CCH accountable and suggest any QC ideas I think might help remedy the process problems.
Sorry - probably the millionth plus one time you've said that. And thanks for your thoughts on why we should post what relationship each of us has with CCH - although it feels like stereotyping (ugh).
Bill
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healyje
Feb 26, 2006, 3:46 AM
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In reply to: But you cannot reach the level of a public statement from CCH/Dave - it starting to sound like you want to do so.
Well, when you make this bogus inference for the millionth time I pretty much keep telling you that's not the case. And when for the millionth time people question me of how I'm related to CCH/Aliens and what my motives are (when I've clear state both clearly a dozen time) I frankly don't have any problem asking they offer up the same in return. I also find it curious that the many of the most virulent CCH bashers are the folks that don't use or own Aliens(ugh).
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billl7
Feb 26, 2006, 3:51 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: But you cannot reach the level of a public statement from CCH/Dave - it starting to sound like you want to do so. Well, when you make this bogus inference for the millionth time I pretty much keep telling you that's not the case (ugh).
Ouch.
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napoleon_in_rags
Feb 26, 2006, 4:24 AM
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In reply to: . I also find it curious that the many of the most virulent CCH bashers are the folks that don't use or own Aliens(ugh).
I find it curious that anyone as involved in this thread as you are doesn't climb with Aliens.
I mean the last time I checked this thread was 4 days and 7 pages ago. I figure that a quarter of those posts are yours. Let it go. People are justifiably p#^&d off at CCH and are using RC.com as a way to vent some steam. The future of CCH will not be determined by by winning or losing an argument on this site.
Turn off your computer, go to a bar, have a beer and worry about something far more important.... Like your next climbing trip.
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112
Feb 26, 2006, 5:50 AM
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In reply to: It would be helpful when folks join the conversation to know if they own Aliens or not, or whether they are interested in discussing the issues around product defects and recalls and CCH's handling of the matter.
I own 6 Aliens: Orange, Yellow, Gray, Green, Blue, and Black.
All are non-dimpled. All have date stamps between 0404 and 0205. The black one has held two falls.
I no longer trust any of mine. My intuition tells me any Alien newer than 2003 is suspect. I don't care what internally generated stamp CCH puts on them. In my mind, nothing has changed until CCH puts out an official statement regarding the scope of their manufaturing process flaws and the actions taken to correct them.
Ken
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cervicornis
Feb 26, 2006, 5:57 AM
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Well my eyes feel like they've dried up and I've got a headache from squinting at my monitor for 2 hours. What a thread.
I was researching the different cams on the market and stumbled across this mess. I've never owned, or even touched a cam. I've looked at them in the glass cases at REI.
No way will I buy an Alien. Not until another reputable company takes over the manufacturing process, or CCH establishes a solid track record (several years long). I have to think that I am in the majority, but maybe not.
The internet is a double-edged sword. Wielded with skill, it can be very powerful (duh!). CCH has no doubt benefited from all the free advertising over the last 10 years. Now they are getting a taste of the "bad side" of the internet. That is totally fair, should have been expected, and it is no one's fault but their own to not realize this was coming. No climber who trusts his/her life to a CCH product should feel any guilt ripping this company to shreds right now. I don't feel guilty ripping them to shreds, even though I've never even touched a cam.
The people that are ripping this company are absolutely contributing something useful to the situation. These posts ensure that CCH will either change its practices or go out of business. Either of those scenarios are better than where we are now.
Dave sounds like he *might* be a good guy. He is surely one of the lucky few that were able to turn a passion into a profitable business. I'm all for supporting the independant craftsperson if he/she puts out a quality product. To all of those posting here that might know him personally, convince the dude to get his act together and start managing his company's reputation on the internet. Even if he is spending 16 hours a day dealing with the manufacturing and QC side of things, he better find a way to add this to his list of priorities. Otherwise, CCH is dead. Those patents won't be worth the paper they're printed on if CCH doesn't have the money or reputation to protect them.
It might be too late now, but this whole debacle could have been used as a positive marketing tool had he jumped on it earlier.
Jason
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billl7
Feb 26, 2006, 6:03 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: But you cannot reach the level of a public statement from CCH/Dave - it starting to sound like you want to do so. Well, when you make this bogus inference for the millionth time I pretty much keep telling you that's not the case. And when for the millionth time people question me of how I'm related to CCH/Aliens and what my motives are ( when I've clear state both clearly a dozen time) I frankly don't have any problem asking they offer up the same in return.
I said I was sorry. It just struck me that way when you have said many many times that you are not a proponent of, not a spokesman for CCH. But recently you said someone was cynical in light of the info you and others had posted because CCH themselves hadn't said anything (my interpretation, not necessarily the original intent(s)) ... and I gave in to the dark side. In contrast to that narrow view, you are providing a service to us by relaying what you find as you deal with CCH.
In reply to: I also find it curious that the many of the most virulent CCH bashers are the folks that don't use or own Aliens(ugh).
Going climbing tomorrow.
Bill L.
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healyje
Feb 26, 2006, 2:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: But you cannot reach the level of a public statement from CCH/Dave - it starting to sound like you want to do so. Well, when you make this bogus inference for the millionth time I pretty much keep telling you that's not the case. And when for the millionth time people question me of how I'm related to CCH/Aliens and what my motives are ( when I've clear state both clearly a dozen time) I frankly don't have any problem asking they offer up the same in return. . I said I was sorry. It just struck me that way when you have said many many times that you are not a proponent of, not a spokesman for CCH. But recently you said someone was cynical in light of the info you and others had posted because CCH themselves hadn't said anything (my interpretation, not necessarily the original intent(s)) ... and I gave in to the dark side. In contrast to that narrow view, you are providing a service to us by relaying what you find as you deal with CCH. In reply to: I also find it curious that the many of the most virulent CCH bashers are the folks that don't use or own Aliens(ugh). Maybe they feel teased because they feel stymied from filling that gap in their rack?? :D Going climbing tomorrow. Bill L.
Sorry, just a bit overly sensitive yesterday. I lament not being able to "fill in" my rack as well. I've aske Metolius repeatedly to build both Hybrid and big cams and so far it appears they are simply too busy with the Ultralights to consider either. That and the fact that we've seen better than year's delay in new cam designs hitting the market from multiple companies suggests that all of them are resource constrained to one degree or another relative to what they can realistically accomplish on any give day.
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holdplease2
Feb 26, 2006, 4:58 PM
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Hey Joe:
There are some metolius FCU hybred prototypes floating around. I don't have any (of course), but I have seen them around the valley. Hybred TCUs, too, as I recall.
-Kate.
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tradrenn
Feb 26, 2006, 9:12 PM
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1.How could this guy not noticed that the swage was not pressed ?
If n00b did that then I would understand, but an experienced guy, that's something.
2.As far as everybody else not trusting Aliens.
The problem is with the recent production (0605)
That also means that Aliens produced prior to 2005 should be fine/are fine.
Just because CCH f*cked up some of the cams doesn't mean that all their gear is no good.
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healyje
Feb 26, 2006, 10:31 PM
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In reply to: Hey Joe: There are some metolius FCU hybred prototypes floating around. I don't have any (of course), but I have seen them around the valley. Hybred TCUs, too, as I recall. -Kate.
Yep, Ivo's got a couple of sets of them. I believe he was the one that bugged them into prototyping them. I jumped in on a set of them as well.
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healyje
Feb 26, 2006, 10:35 PM
Post #198 of 199
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Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
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In reply to: 1.How could this guy not noticed that the swage was not pressed ? If n00b did that then I would understand, but an experienced guy, that's something.
It can happen. Climbers today treat climbing gear pretty much like any other consumer product they buy and just assume it is all fine if it came from a store. They don't inspect it closely or question the design. That's actually a development of the last twenty years, prior to that we were pretty damn skeptical of all gear regardless of who made it or where it came from. I still am...
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billl7
Feb 27, 2006, 3:09 AM
Post #199 of 199
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Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1890
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In reply to: [Sorry, just a bit overly sensitive yesterday. I lament not being able to "fill in" my rack as well. I've aske Metolius repeatedly to build both Hybrid and big cams and so far it appears they are simply too busy with the Ultralights to consider either. That and the fact that we've seen better than year's delay in new cam designs hitting the market from multiple companies suggests that all of them are resource constrained to one degree or another relative to what they can realistically accomplish on any give day.
Had a good day climbing and hiking with one of my son's today. Would have been a perfect day with less hiking and more climbing :D but still good.
Bill L.
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