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jt512
Jan 3, 2006, 8:59 PM
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In reply to: Unfortunately, the only REAL way (that I have done) to lose the lbs is to drop the carbs, so you have to be a aware of this side effect and plan for it, such as dropping the carbs to 150 or possibly lower for only one to two days at a time while keeping your cardio high (walking twice a day).
The detrimental effects of low-carb diets on athletic performance are well documented. Low-carb diets cannot be recommended for climbers.
In reply to: Note that reducing carbs should be offset with an increase in protein and fat (monounsaturated, like flax or safflower oil)...
Flax oil and safflower oil are polyunsaturated fats, not monounsaturated fats.
In reply to: ...to maintain your 2700 calorie per day regime. This amount of calories will sustain your lean tissue and get you through your workouts while the walking will cause the deficit needed for the fat loss.
Caloric deficit? Are you nuts? The average person on this site probably burns 2000 kcal/day. They would gain weight on a 2700-kcal diet.
In reply to: Expect a three to four pound loss in the first seven to eight days...
Which would be water weight, resulting from the dehydrating effects of high protein consumption.
In reply to: ...then tapering off to one and a half to two pounds of fat loss per week.
On 2700 kcal/day? In your dreams, maybe.
Jay
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jasonslc
Jan 3, 2006, 9:51 PM
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Most of the people I've climbed with aren't too obsessive about nutrition, even the really good ones who crank 5.13 on gear. To each their own, I guess.
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gramiras
Jan 3, 2006, 10:40 PM
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Well Jay,
They are MONOUNSATURATED. Not that I hold that little error against you. Safflower being 11g per Tbsp mono and only 2g poly. Get your facts straight before you flame.
Next, you say you only burn 2000 calories a day. Well only if you slept all day. Try moving around and adding in those calories.'
Finally, the deficit I was talking about is the walking (cardio) that will burn approximately 200 calories per hour, done twice per day does produce the fat burning. ie. fat loss effect.
Hey bro, you climb, I climb that's all that should matter. From the tone of your post I guess you feel that might be different. Look man, I'm not giving shitty advice the numbers I quoted are accurate. If your training and doing a little cardio along with eating low glycemic carbs and lots of protein...the fat will melt. I've been at this game a loooong time.
I'm sure you mean well Jay, and your just making sure lame advice isn't being thrown around. I assure you I know what I'm talking about on this subject and would be willing to go further in depth with you about it in private. You might benefit from a changed body composition and improved strength. It's worth a try. Hit me up dude!
-peace to ya
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jred
Jan 3, 2006, 10:49 PM
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In reply to: Well Jay, They are MONOUNSATURATED. Not that I hold that little error against you. Safflower being 11g per Tbsp mono and only 2g poly. Get your facts straight before you flame. Next, you say you only burn 2000 calories a day. Well only if you slept all day. Try moving around and adding in those calories.' Finally, the deficit I was talking about is the walking (cardio) that will burn approximately 200 calories per hour, done twice per day does produce the fat burning. ie. fat loss effect. Hey bro, you climb, I climb that's all that should matter. From the tone of your post I guess you feel that might be different. Look man, I'm not giving s--- advice the numbers I quoted are accurate. If your training and doing a little cardio along with eating low glycemic carbs and lots of protein...the fat will melt. I've been at this game a loooong time. I'm sure you mean well Jay, and your just making sure lame advice isn't being thrown around. I assure you I know what I'm talking about on this subject and would be willing to go further in depth with you about it in private. You might benefit from a changed body composition and improved strength. It's worth a try. Hit me up dude! -peace to ya |
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ajkclay
Jan 4, 2006, 1:42 PM
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In reply to: I don't think it really has to do with the % of BF that causes abnormalities in brain function, rather the lack of glucose (blood sugar) from the reduced carobohydrates that determines your mental state. Unfortunately, the only REAL way (that I have done) to lose the lbs is to drop the carbs, so you have to be a aware of this side effect and plan for it, such as dropping the carbs to 150 or possibly lower for only one to two days at a time while keeping your cardio high (walking twice a day). Note that reducing carbs should be offset with an increase in protein and fat (monounsaturated, like flax or safflower oil) to maintain your 2700 calorie per day regime. This amount of calories will sustain your lean tissue and get you through your workouts while the walking will cause the deficit needed for the fat loss. Expect a three to four pound loss in the first seven to eight days, then tapering off to one and a half to two pounds of fat loss per week.
Well, I lost 6kg (~12lbs - and no, not water) going from 69kg to 63kg in two weeks by following an eating plan almost identical to what JT is recommending. I did this in the first couple of weeks of December 2005. All I did was eat as described in the OP and increase my exercise marginally. And I most definitely did not drastically reduce carb intake.
Reducing carbs to lose weight is a really dumb idea for an athlete, sorry, no two ways about it.
And I'm sorry, lower carb intake is not thought to have anything to do with OCD either, it appears to be a condition related to neurotransmitters and reuptake.
Adam
edit: spelling
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jt512
Jan 4, 2006, 4:16 PM
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In reply to: The average total calories burned by an absolutely sedentary individual is closer to 1500. *Harvard Medical School, test subject 170 lbs.
If you use typical predictive equations, you come up with a number around 1400 kcal/day for a sedentary individual. I can't argue with that methodology, since it has been around for years. Using the methodology I learned in nutritional biochemistry, you come up with a lower number, around 900-1100 kcal/d. The predictive equations are known to overestimate RMR in certain circumstances, and when I've tried using them as the basis of predicting total energy requirements, the estimates have tended to be high. I've had better success starting with 900 kcal for females and 1000 kcal for males. However, your original claim that someone sleeping all day would burn 2000 kcal, and therefore would lose weight consuming 2700 kcal, is erroneous no matter how you measure RMR.
In reply to: I'll even take it one step further Jay, and suggest that after a two month run on this program, a person should cut the saffola/flax out and introduce a medium chain triglyceride. Whatdaya think about them apples?
I think now you are just babbling psuedo-scientific nonsense. You've actually gone from claiming that you "don't need a biology lesson" to actually specifying the length of the fatty acids chains.
Jay
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gramiras
Jan 5, 2006, 3:29 AM
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The average total calories burned by an absolutely sedentary individual is closer to 1500. *Harvard Medical School, test subject 170 lbs.
Not to labor too much on the issue, but I believe that *Saffola (a monounsaturated) oil is completely safe to make up extra calories when necessary. I don't think you'll put up the argument that a person doesn't need fat in their diet. So, going with my plan of reduced (not eliminated, nor even low for that matter, Christ it's 150-300 grams) of carbohydrates and loading up on the protein and adding a couple of Tablespoons of oil to prevent catabolism from calorie reduction makes sense. Actually, it's not MY plan at all, this is a well documented, tried and true method for leaning out.
I'll even take it one step further Jay, and suggest that after a two month run on this program, a person should cut the saffola/flax out and introduce a medium chain triglyceride. Whatdaya think about them apples?
Ahhhh....I think this thread is only interesting to you and I. We may have to stop posting on this before the natives become restless.
I'll give ya the last word.
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builttospill
Jan 20, 2006, 1:12 AM
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I'm posting on my friend's name, hopefully he doesn't kill me.
I'm new to climbing, though I think I've been bitten pretty hard. I'm 6'1-6'2, 155 pounds. I have a pretty extensive background in distance running (15:15 5k, 4:23 mile) and I'm obviously maybe not so perfectly built for this new sport.
I was wondering if you'd reccomend gaining weight, or just trying to work the new muscles (I'm still running 70-odd miles per week as well, a pretty significant drop from my old 90+ which made me too tired to do much else). I feel like I'd like to lose some weight, but I also don't know how feasible that is with my activity level.
I also don't know how useful or comprehensible this post is, but any general feedback or instruction would obviously be welcome.
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tvella
Jan 23, 2006, 12:20 AM
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Ah, just what i needed! Jay you're a champ. I'm starting a cross-training group for my climbing club and I believe many will be grateful for your dietary wisdom.
Just curious, can any one recommend the right foods to eat while out a big day's climbing? To maintain energy without feeling bogged down by bakery goodness? :roll: Even though we love the bakery.
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m
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Feb 14, 2006, 11:50 PM
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It took me three days to read through all this very valuable information. Great effort JT!
I have a few stupid questions myself.
1: I'm 85 kg of muscular build. Is there anywhere I could find information on how to find my daily energy-requirement? Surely it cant be around 1000 kcal?
2: Does aerobic long distance-running add bulk to the legs? And what about moderate A to B biking (no pulse)?
3: Is it harmful to fry food in olive or flax seed oil due to the chemical process that the heat causes? I'm not thinking about calories now, but about something my teacher in Biochemistry told me in class once.
Finally a digression. If anyone feel they just get fatter and fatter no matter what - go to the GP and have a blood test. Turned out I had a brain tumor (prolactinoma). Fat is burnt more easily with testosterone in the body.
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rm
Mar 1, 2006, 1:08 AM
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Just wanted to say thank you JT512 for all the info you posted. I followed it all. Additional thanks to everyone else for their responses and questions. For those of you who are interested in the details, here they are:
5’10” and 27 years old
January 12th, 2006 - Weight = 218.0 lbs (29.1% body fat)
February 28th, 2006 - Weight = 201.4 lbs (24.8% body fat)
Total Weight loss = 16.6 lbs
Total Lean (or muscle) loss = 3.5 lbs
What I found most interesting. I weighed myself every morning on a scale capable of determining my percent body fat by bioelectrical impedance analysis. I used excel to plot and obtain a linear regression line through the data. After week four, I was able to tell you what I would weigh the next week to within plus or minus 0.2 pounds. The R-Squared value for the linear regression line obtained from my weight loss data is 0.9902. As a chemical engineer I have had to deal with mass/energy balances. I think the value is high enough to demonstrate that the body is not a thermodynamic exception.
Sorry if it seems kind of scientific. I am about a year out from obtaining my Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering, so in character, I approached the hole weight loss thing very scientifically. I tried to make it very quantitative. It was also an opportunity to learn a lot about my body and weight loss in general. By making it into kind of an experiment, I found extra motivation for continuing my diet in the face of temptations. Anyway, it was kind of fun being able to study my own body.
I reduced my daily calorie intake to an average of 1825 calories (38% protein, 54% carbohydrates, and 8% fat). I added some vitamin and mineral supplements to my diet. I also consumed about 100 oz of water each day. To save time, I ate the same thing every day. Boring, but I thought it a must to maintain daily reproducibility. Every other week on Saturday, I went out with friends or family and ate a normal meal. Everything was recorded in an excel spreadsheet.
For exercise I climbed 3 times a week at Hangar 18 in Upland, CA. I would climb for about 45 minutes to 1 hour and 15 minutes, depending on my workout. During the seven weeks of my diet I was able to go climbing outside on two Saturdays. Despite some overall loss in muscle, my climbing has improved. I was able to boulder my first gym V3- and V3 last week. I have also been able to add a few more V2s to my VIR workout. Other than climbing, no other exercising was performed.
Since my total weight loss goal is to get below 19.0% body fat (from what I have read, that is considered healthy), I am almost half way to my goal. For the next seven weeks, I wanted to see how adding additional exercise will affect the way my body losses weight. I will be doing 24 minutes of moderate cardio followed by 20 minutes of resistance training on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. I will also try and do about 24 minutes of light cardio with some stretching on Tuesdays and Thursdays. This will be in addition to my climbing on Mondays, Thursdays, and Saturdays. I will not change my diet. I will give you guys the last update in 7 weeks (around April 20th, 2006). Take care,
Ronnie Munoz
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billcoe_
Mar 20, 2006, 9:05 PM
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In reply to: Most of the people I've climbed with aren't too obsessive about nutrition, even the really good ones who crank 5.13 on gear. To each their own, I guess.
Most of the really, REALLY, good climbers I've run into, including some who've done 5.14, are very insanely obsessive about their weight and food intake to the point of having no butter OR syrup on their pancakes when hitting the restaurant the 2nd morning climbing.
Just sitting there happily chewing on cardboard and drinking water......
RM, look forward to seeing your posts. I hurt my foot a while back, and recognizing that any training would be light and short, did 2 things only and have dropped some weight anyway even thought it was .
I gave up sugar and Miracle Whip. Thats all.
Instead of sitting around the office all day eating sweets, I stuff a cliff bar down my throat as a substitute. No Soda either.
Swapping out Miracle whip for yogurt was tough at first cause I love Miracle whip, now 4 weeks into it, I can't choke that fatty Kraft product crap down. Same thing happened to my son.
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cathy
Apr 7, 2006, 8:15 PM
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I'm curious about weight loss from fat compared to weight loss from muscle. If I understand these posts correctly, then caloric deprivation while fasting would generally increase muscle loss over fat loss. Is this correct?
I usually run in the morning (~5 days per week, 4-8 miles). I don't like to eat first, but I do eat within about 30 minutes of returning (run, shower, cereal w/ low fat milk, go to work). I have two questions: is the preferential muscle weight loss when fasted true during exercise too? does a meal soon after exercise shift the balance back more toward fat loss (since metabolism remains high, blah blah blah)?
BTW I feel fine when running, enough energy to do occasional harder workouts (~90% max HR) and I still feel OK.
Thanks for any advice!
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jt512
Apr 11, 2006, 2:52 PM
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In reply to: I'm curious about weight loss from fat compared to weight loss from muscle. If I understand these posts correctly, then caloric deprivation while fasting would generally increase muscle loss over fat loss. Is this correct?
More like it adds muscle loss to fat loss. During fasting you still lose fat, but as liver glycogen becomes depleted overnight, the body increases the rate of breakdown of muscle protein in order to convert amino acids to glucose to maintain physiologic blood glucose levels.
In reply to: I usually run in the morning (~5 days per week, 4-8 miles). I don't like to eat first, but I do eat within about 30 minutes of returning (run, shower, cereal w/ low fat milk, go to work). I have two questions: is the preferential muscle weight loss when fasted true during exercise too?
Again, it's more like "added" than "preferential," and yes, it would still occur during exercise.
In reply to: does a meal soon after exercise shift the balance back more toward fat loss (since metabolism remains high, blah blah blah)?
Yes it does, but not because metabolism remains high, but rather because the meal supplies the carbohydrate that your body needs to maintain blood glucose and to restock the liver with glycogen. That is, your body no longer needs to break down muscle protein to maintain blood glucose, so the rate of muscle catabolism is reduced.
Chances are, the running that you're doing before breakfast is doing you more good than harm, so I wouldn't be too concerned about running before eating. On the other hand, if you are posting these questions because you are having difficulty maintaining or increasing upper body muscle mass, then changing the timing of your exercise or morning meal might be something to consider.
Jay
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mtkinji
Apr 11, 2006, 2:58 PM
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I had a jaw surgery, my mouth was wired shut for a week and a few odd days. I lost 8 pounds and didn't climb for a month. Before this surgery I was working a gym problem for 2 semesters of school, I never could send this thing. After surgery though, I sent it within 5 minutes of my first re-attempt. While I don't recommed jaw surgery, it worked for me!
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jt512
Apr 11, 2006, 3:02 PM
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In reply to: I had a jaw surgery, my mouth was wired shut for a week and a few odd days. I lost 8 pounds and didn't climb for a month. Before this surgery I was working a gym problem for 2 semesters of school, I never could send this thing. After surgery though, I sent it within 5 minutes of my first re-attempt. While I don't recommed jaw surgery, it worked for me!
Technically speaking, the surgery wouldn't be required. One could just wire their jaw shut anyway.
Jay
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cathy
Apr 13, 2006, 9:58 PM
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Thanks Jay. Happy cereal-free morning runs continue.
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saulokin
Apr 26, 2006, 11:34 AM
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I am a hobbiest weightlifter and have delt with nutrition as a training tool for many years.
I have an excel spreadsheet that can assist in planning your meals, breaks everything down into macro nutrients, and can help you calculate your caloric needs.
It even has a macro to make you a grocery list once you have planned your week of food.
If anyone is interested, let me know by pm or email.
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boulderslikeagirl
Apr 26, 2006, 11:42 AM
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I guess this is sort of random but what he said in post #1 really worked for my husband and me. Over the course of 10 months, we lost 40 pounds each by controling portions, increasing protein and lowering fat. Sure, by standards you an safely lose 2 pounds a week. (If that were the case, I'd only weight 90 pounds with those results!) But all in all, this method seriously works.
Now, what's the best way to burn that tummy fat other than a gazillion crunches or L-hangs?
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nunchaku_ku
May 2, 2006, 8:16 AM
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I just wanted to say thanks to everyone (esp. Jay) for the fantastic information. The longevity of this post is most impressive (and yes, I read all 21 pages in one sitting :D)
FYI, I am 21m, 5'6", 147lb. The reason for the high weight/height ratio is that I have been bodybuilding for the past two years. I only recently discovered climbing, but I am ready for it to replace my current physical hobby/obsession of lifting (doesn't matter if I'm trying to gain weight or lose weight, goals are goals, right?). Anybody else attempting a similar transformation?
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cactusedd
May 2, 2006, 11:49 AM
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Great thread. Very informative, though, I will admit that when I first began reading it I was somewhat skeptical. I do have a couple of questions, however;
When I first entered the military in 1997, I was 6'2" and weighed 165 pounds. Upon completion of basic training, I weighed 188 pounds and have remained at that weight ever since. While I have assumed this weight gain was muscle mass, I realize that a lower overall body weight would produce a better strength to weight ratio necessary for climbing. Given that I have a body fat percentage of approximately 13-15%, how much additional weight can I expect to lose while still remaining healthy?
The second question concerns supplementation. I currently use meal replacement shakes on a regular basis. I have once heard, however, that the overconsumption of soy can actually conteract the production of testosterone that is vital for muscle production. Fact or BS? Additionally, what do think of the so called 'superfoods,' such as chlorella algae and wheatgrass? I will admit that I feel better when I use these supplements, but is there any actual valid proof supporting their use? Thanks very much.
Regards,
Edd
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saulokin
May 2, 2006, 12:57 PM
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Strength to weight ratio?
I am currently 192 lbs, at 5'10" . I can do lots of chinups, running, ect. As far as I have calculated, I have about 25 lbs of extra fat currently on my body. (remember your muscles have fat content in them as well, I am not counting that)
I find I have no problems climbing, but I will say that a few muscles have toned and improved since I started climbing. Muscle (strength) to weight ratio will usually take care of itself. I wouldn't worry about how much you weigh.
One you have reached a stable and fit body weight, concentrate on your endurance and overall strength. The muscles that you use alot of in climbing tend to be your forearms, shoulders(deltoids), biceps, traps, triceps and abs. That is the order of importance I would put them in as well. Ofcourse everything is connected, and you should forget your legs, as well as your lats, ect. It is just that every sport has its own specific muscles that tend to help improve performance.
Healthy adult males should not ever drop below about 6-7% body fat on a consistent basis. A good target is about 9-11% body fat for men, and about 2% higher for women. As I mentioned muscle contains fat too, and is important for health. Fat in our body helps keep us healthy when our immune system is run down, and without fat there would be no testosterone production.
I have never heard of soy depeleting the production of testosterone, but most of the protein shakes I have are built on whey protein (milk derivative) and other proteins (mostly derived from milk as well)
When choosing a protein, as long as you are not lactose intolerant, choose whey for quick absorption before and after a work out, and cassin protein for evening meal before bed. Cassin is an older style protein, and is usually cheaper. The reason for this is that it takes longer for your body to break it down and use it, which makes it perfect to for overnight. If you keep food in your body, you will keep your self more often in an anabolic state (as opposed to catabolic) which will promote overall growth.
Superfoods? Any term like that is just a marketing gimmic. Did you know that just 1 cup (250ml) of plain white skim milk has 0 grams of fat, but 9 grams of protein? Look at that protein shake you drink, and you may find that milk is a close competitor.
I drink wheatgrass, because I tend to be lax in eating enough vegetables and fruit. No food is going to be great for you to gorge on, remember that balance and a large varriety help to not only keep you interested in your meal plan, but keeps you balanced in nutrients and vitamins too.
This is taken from all over the place, and has mostly been my good experience. I hope this helps, as I am only a hobyist. Check out other sources to underline this.
Two books I highly recommend are 'Body for life' by Bill Phillips, and "The encylopeadia of Modern Bodybuilding" by Arnold Schwartzenegger. You don't have to want to look like a gorilla to put the best ideas behind bodybuilding to your own use. :shock:
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risking_death_on_climb_ok
May 2, 2006, 1:28 PM
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Ya so I'm 17 and 6 foot 137lb....i don't need to worry about weight at all but would like to maximize muscle gain with my diet (I climb twice a week and workout every day, pole vault for track so constant running and weightlifting)...any advice?
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jt512
May 2, 2006, 3:02 PM
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In reply to: Strength to weight ratio?
Yep.
In reply to: I am currently 192 lbs, at 5'10" . I can do lots of chinups, running, ect. As far as I have calculated, I have about 25 lbs of extra fat currently on my body. (remember your muscles have fat content in them as well, I am not counting that)
Really. How did you separate out the muscle fat from the other fat?
In reply to: I find I have no problems climbing...
You have no problem climbing 5.8, according to your profile. Some of us would consider that a problem.
In reply to: Two books I highly recommend are 'Body for life' by Bill Phillips, and "The encylopeadia of Modern Bodybuilding" by Arnold Schwartzenegger. You don't have to want to look like a gorilla to put the best ideas behind bodybuilding to your own use. :shock:
Sorry, Dude, but bodybuilding is exactly how you don't want to train for climbing.
Jay
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nunchaku_ku
May 2, 2006, 3:10 PM
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(As I finish this, I see Jay beat me to it =D. Here goes anyway...)
In reply to: Muscle (strength) to weight ratio will usually take care of itself. I wouldn't worry about how much you weigh.
In reply to: I have about 25 lbs of extra fat currently on my body.
In reply to: The muscles that you use a lot of in climbing tend to be your forearms, shoulders(deltoids), biceps, traps, triceps and abs. |
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