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overlord
Jun 11, 2007, 8:10 AM
Post #26 of 77
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coastal_climber wrote: I have, and since the pictures are bs, and there isn't separate pro, I was wondering... >Cam
twins dont need seperate pro...
anyway, back to topic... just ignore majid... he has a realy accident fetish. and since OP was talkning about taking a few first falls on lead, i really doubt that he will run it out enough to break something.
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svilnit
Jun 11, 2007, 12:25 PM
Post #27 of 77
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majid_sabet wrote: From OP's statement In reply to: I know the equipment is super strong I was only trying to show related photos to educate OP that climbing gears like any other hardware do fail and if they are going to fail; most likely it would during a major fall.
Majid - it was still really uncalled for. I have never said anything about your posts before, however, that one was low, even for you.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 11, 2007, 12:49 PM
Post #28 of 77
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Actuaqlly majid has a point. bad things can and do happen in leader falls, just see this months R&I accident report. This is the beginners forum and the OP is talking about leading 5.6 and 5.7 On those grades of climbs the leader should NOT fall!! As a beginner the leader should work on their climbing skills NOT their falling skills. Easier grade climbs often have too many ledges to hit makeing them bad choices for leader falls anyhow. The new leader also needs to develope the skills to stay in control on the sharp end. learning how to down climb out of trouble rather than jumping off at the first sign of adversity is an essentual skill. Once the leader advances into harder grades and has some no fall miles under their harness you can start working on learning how to lead fallin the right situations. You guys are all like whip away dude, its really fun and the gear is like super truck man. Majid is just showing you the other side of the story... In any lead fall about 4 things can happen and 3 of them are bad
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svilnit
Jun 11, 2007, 1:15 PM
Post #29 of 77
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Actuaqlly majid has a point. bad things can and do happen in leader falls, just see this months R&I accident report. This is the beginners forum and the OP is talking about leading 5.6 and 5.7 On those grades of climbs the leader should NOT fall!! As a beginner the leader should work on their climbing skills NOT their falling skills. Easier grade climbs often have too many ledges to hit makeing them bad choices for leader falls anyhow. The new leader also needs to develope the skills to stay in control on the sharp end. learning how to down climb out of trouble rather than jumping off at the first sign of adversity is an essentual skill. Once the leader advances into harder grades and has some no fall miles under their harness you can start working on learning how to lead fallin the right situations. You guys are all like whip away dude, its really fun and the gear is like super truck man. Majid is just showing you the other side of the story... In any lead fall about 4 things can happen and 3 of them are bad
I'm not disagreeing with you, however, he didn't need to put it like he did. Saying what you just said would have been a much much more effective way of getting that point across. Seriously, how many 'biners have we seen fail like that? I know I haven't seen many. Yes, the possibility is there, it aways is, however, a simple series of pictures meant to scare someone, that are in no way connected to eachother was a piss poor post in my opinion.
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ja1484
Jun 11, 2007, 1:20 PM
Post #30 of 77
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svilnit wrote: majid_sabet wrote: From OP's statement In reply to: I know the equipment is super strong I was only trying to show related photos to educate OP that climbing gears like any other hardware do fail and if they are going to fail; most likely it would during a major fall. Majid - it was still really uncalled for. I have never said anything about your posts before, however, that one was low, even for you.
Doesn't really matter anyway because his second statement doesn't hold water either. Climbing equipment isn't more likely to fail in a major fall than a minor one either, because it's built to withstand both.
Failure occurs because of improper maitenance of use of gear. The actual cases of properly maintained gear in porper use failing from stresses are so tiny in number as to be effectively nonexistent.
You can take a 60 footer and still have it be a fairly low factor fall. It all depends on context. I really wish he'd quit posting his nonsense.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Jun 11, 2007, 4:06 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 11, 2007, 1:50 PM
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In this case majids post was actually better than any of the posts where you nilliys all sent the poor noob out to whip away and most likly get hurt the leader must not fall untill the leader is on steep well bolted sport climbs or the leader is experienced and is on a steep well protected gear climb. You guys are encourageing a noob to practice leader falls on 5.6 and 5.7 trad climbs?? WTF?? You guys are way the fck out there on this one and make majid look pretty good today.... gear does rip and sometimes it breaks in low fall factor falls. (see aliens) Sometimes you hit things and you break. Bolts pull out and break, draws break, ropes get cut on sharp edges, all of this stuff is pretty rare but is is not a bad idea to know that the system is not bulletproof. Gravity does not lie and you don't get too many second chances in this game. learning how to lead without falling is an essentual skill. The best time to learn that skill is when you are starting. Pleanty of time to learn how to lead fall when you are a seasoned pro.
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ja1484
Jun 11, 2007, 4:08 PM
Post #32 of 77
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tradmanclimbs wrote: In this case majids post was actually better than any of the posts where you nilliys all sent the poor noob out to whip away and most likly get hurt the leader must not fall untill the leader is on steep well bolted sport climbs or the leader is experienced and is on a steep well protected gear climb. You guys are encourageing a noob to practice leader falls on 5.6 and 5.7 trad climbs?? WTF?? You guys are way the fck out there on this one and make majid look pretty good today.... gear does rip and sometimes it breaks in low fall factor falls. (see aliens) Sometimes you hit things and you break. Bolts pull out and break, draws break, ropes get cut on sharp edges, all of this stuff is pretty rare but is is not a bad idea to know that the system is not bulletproof. Gravity does not lie and you don't get too many second chances in this game. learning how to lead without falling is an essentual skill. The best time to learn that skill is when you are starting. Pleanty of time to learn how to lead fall when you are a seasoned pro.
I just wanted to take this opporunity to point out that I have not encouraged the OP to practice falling on anything anywhere, or to practice falling at all.
All I did was reveal the origin of Majid's photos and point out that he's a moron, so please don't lump me in your chiding. I knew all of the above long before posting which is why I didn't get involved.
So, all of THEM are encouraging 5.6/5.7 trad falls, or whomever actually said it. I have an opinion on the subject, but I'm not going to post it as I don't want to get into a pissing match over a subject that is so incredibly a personal opinion.
And a few points:
- Aliens fail at low loads when they're improperly manufactured, which appears to be most of the time these days. Lesson: Don't climb on aliens.
- REPUTABLE gear breaking is exceptionally rare.
- If you're stupid enough to think the system is bulletproof, you deserve death.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Jun 11, 2007, 4:10 PM)
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hosh
Jun 11, 2007, 4:20 PM
Post #33 of 77
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hosh wrote: Some people recommend practice falls, but I don't really know that that's necessary. If you ever fall on TR, then you already know what it feels like to fall. Granted, lead falls are much more exhilarating, but TR falls are pretty much the same thing on a smaller scale; gravity at work on your body. hosh.
Just to remind people that I was NOT suggesting that the new leader whip away. I feel that falling on purpose just to "test it out" is kind of a bad idea. You'll fall eventually, and hopefully by then, you'll have enough "horse sense" to do it right.
hosh.
(This post was edited by hosh on Jun 11, 2007, 4:40 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 11, 2007, 4:49 PM
Post #34 of 77
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To answer the OPs orinal question. You don't need to worry about that yet. You need to start leading in situations where you will not fall. By the time that you progress to the point that you are doing leads where falls are a possibility you should be placeing your gear correctly. Correctly placed and used gear is strong stuff and will hold your large body in most but not all situations. Big heavy climbers probobly shouldn't whip onto brassies or 00 TCUs etc. without useing screamers YMMV
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svilnit
Jun 11, 2007, 4:52 PM
Post #35 of 77
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ja1484 wrote: I just wanted to take this opporunity to point out that I have not encouraged the OP to practice falling on anything anywhere, or to practice falling at all. All I did was reveal the origin of Majid's photos and point out that he's a moron, so please don't lump me in your chiding. I knew all of the above long before posting which is why I didn't get involved. So, all of THEM are encouraging 5.6/5.7 trad falls, or whomever actually said it. I have an opinion on the subject, but I'm not going to post it as I don't want to get into a pissing match over a subject that is so incredibly a personal opinion. And a few points: - Aliens fail at low loads when they're improperly manufactured, which appears to be most of the time these days. Lesson: Don't climb on aliens. - REPUTABLE gear breaking is exceptionally rare. - If you're stupid enough to think the system is bulletproof, you deserve death.
I would like to take another moment to point out SAME HERE! I didn't tell anybody to intentionally take a fall. That's like telling somebody to intentionally crash their car into a tree to make sure the seatbelt and airbags work. Thanks for putting words in our mouth though.
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majid_sabet
Jun 11, 2007, 5:06 PM
Post #36 of 77
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ja1484 wrote: tradmanclimbs wrote: In this case majids post was actually better than any of the posts where you nilliys all sent the poor noob out to whip away and most likly get hurt the leader must not fall untill the leader is on steep well bolted sport climbs or the leader is experienced and is on a steep well protected gear climb. You guys are encourageing a noob to practice leader falls on 5.6 and 5.7 trad climbs?? WTF?? You guys are way the fck out there on this one and make majid look pretty good today.... gear does rip and sometimes it breaks in low fall factor falls. (see aliens) Sometimes you hit things and you break. Bolts pull out and break, draws break, ropes get cut on sharp edges, all of this stuff is pretty rare but is is not a bad idea to know that the system is not bulletproof. Gravity does not lie and you don't get too many second chances in this game. learning how to lead without falling is an essentual skill. The best time to learn that skill is when you are starting. Pleanty of time to learn how to lead fall when you are a seasoned pro. I just wanted to take this opporunity to point out that I have not encouraged the OP to practice falling on anything anywhere, or to practice falling at all. All I did was reveal the origin of Majid's photos and point out that he's a moron, so please don't lump me in your chiding. I knew all of the above long before posting which is why I didn't get involved. So, all of THEM are encouraging 5.6/5.7 trad falls, or whomever actually said it. I have an opinion on the subject, but I'm not going to post it as I don't want to get into a pissing match over a subject that is so incredibly a personal opinion. And a few points: - Aliens fail at low loads when they're improperly manufactured, which appears to be most of the time these days. Lesson: Don't climb on aliens. - REPUTABLE gear breaking is exceptionally rare. - If you're stupid enough to think the system is bulletproof, you deserve death.
I may be a moron but you guys are super moron for giving so called expert advice to beginners that is okay to jump and it is okay to fall cause based on the CF manufactures records, all climbing gears are safe and they will do their job to protect you.
STOPPPPPP
Climbing gears are there as backups and occasionally backups fail (very rare) but like any other hardware, they do fail. The price tag for such failures are either major injuries and commonly involves with DEATH. You as a beginner should focus on your climbing skill and experience as primary way to increase your ability to climb higher and enjoy this lovely sport. Gears and protections are only there as a backup incase you loose it. You want to be better climber then assume there are no ropes and there are no protections and if you fall, you will die.
Stop telling people that is okay to fall and if what I say make me moron then that is fine with me.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 11, 2007, 5:08 PM)
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lena_chita
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Jun 11, 2007, 5:07 PM
Post #37 of 77
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svilnit wrote: I would like to take another moment to point out SAME HERE! I didn't tell anybody to intentionally take a fall. That's like telling somebody to intentionally crash their car into a tree to make sure the seatbelt and airbags work. Thanks for putting words in our mouth though.
O.K., so we all agree that practice lead falls on 5.6 ledge-fest is a bad idea. But saying that ALL practice lead falls are as bad/stupid as ramming your car into a tree? In a beginner forum?
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svilnit
Jun 11, 2007, 5:14 PM
Post #38 of 77
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lena_chita wrote: svilnit wrote: I would like to take another moment to point out SAME HERE! I didn't tell anybody to intentionally take a fall. That's like telling somebody to intentionally crash their car into a tree to make sure the seatbelt and airbags work. Thanks for putting words in our mouth though. O.K., so we all agree that practice lead falls on 5.6 ledge-fest is a bad idea. But saying that ALL practice lead falls are as bad/stupid as ramming your car into a tree? In a beginner forum?
To cover my ass from future liability, yes!
Personally, I have done it. However, I am not going to tell anybody else to. What if said beginner places a shitty piece of gear and launches himself in a "practice fall" and decks, how would you feel. In the correct environment, with the correct guidance it can be very beneficial.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 11, 2007, 5:17 PM
Post #39 of 77
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I looked at those photos again and what the fck is your problem here?? They are totaly cool falling shots. if you are going to fall that is certainly good style. The busted gear shots are a nice reminder that falling is not allways a good idea!! You guys just have a need to feel superior to majid. Good shots and at least as much on topic as anything else on this site. Again, Don't leadfall untill you know what your doing and by then you shouldn't need us wankers in here to tell you how to do it
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 11, 2007, 5:20 PM
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A ceratin somebody on this forum read Arnos book and then broke here knee takeing a practice fall There is a time and place practice for it but NOT in the beginner forum
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lena_chita
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Jun 11, 2007, 5:42 PM
Post #42 of 77
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svilnit wrote: lena_chita wrote: svilnit wrote: I would like to take another moment to point out SAME HERE! I didn't tell anybody to intentionally take a fall. That's like telling somebody to intentionally crash their car into a tree to make sure the seatbelt and airbags work. Thanks for putting words in our mouth though. O.K., so we all agree that practice lead falls on 5.6 ledge-fest is a bad idea. But saying that ALL practice lead falls are as bad/stupid as ramming your car into a tree? In a beginner forum? To cover my ass from future liability, yes! Personally, I have done it. However, I am not going to tell anybody else to. What if said beginner places a shitty piece of gear and launches himself in a "practice fall" and decks, how would you feel. In the correct environment, with the correct guidance it can be very beneficial.
Aaahh, the liability, of course! How could I forget about the possibility of someone suing me in this day and age...
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macblaze
Jun 11, 2007, 5:54 PM
Post #43 of 77
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majid_sabet wrote: Stop telling people that is okay to fall and if what I say make me moron then that is fine with me.
No, I called you a moron because in a beginners forum, you did your utmost to scare the hell out of someone who is only trying to get some info.
Do a little research and you'll see the OP as just started climbing and wants to progress to the next step...not 60' whippers, not major falls on a 00 tcu's... he wants to try leading and wants some info on what that means to a man his size. You basically told him he'll break his gear and die.
Now if you want to keep him from ever climbing again: nice strategy; otherwise it was incomplete, inappropriate and borderline lieing.
Again:
Question: Can I hope to lead at my weight?
Answer: Yes, given appropriate instruction and proper usage, current gear can handle a person of your size in a lead fall.
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ccourtney_99
Jun 11, 2007, 6:39 PM
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Wow.... thanks for all the info guys. Keep it coming. I guess what I am getting from the posts so far is to keep climbing and improving my technique (and maybe lose a few pounds in the meantime). Make my way into leading some climbs and when I do finally fall on lead to stay calm, concentrate on falling form and just trust my equipment. Sound about Right? Once again thanks for al the info. I dont know anyone that climbs so you guys are my best source of info. Cheers.....
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drljefe
Jun 11, 2007, 6:53 PM
Post #45 of 77
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ccourtney_99, there are proper techniques for falling on lead, as some of the others have explained, and this is essential info. However, at this stage in your evolution as a climber I'd be focussing on tr- ing and following for a while. Examine your partners placements. If you do decide to lead, do a route you've already toproped. If you get haired on lead learn how to downclimb, a more essential skill, at this point, than falling properly. I climbed and lead for years before i fell on my gear. Work your way dilligently up through the grades and have a experienced partner who knows your habits and knows that catching a heavy dude could be tough.
As for everyone worried about shocking the noob with scary pictures- we don't need to coddle him, climbing is serious business! Anyone remember the old school drivers ed movies like RED ASPHAULT?
Be safe.
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majid_sabet
Jun 11, 2007, 6:56 PM
Post #46 of 77
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macblaze wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Stop telling people that is okay to fall and if what I say make me moron then that is fine with me. No, I called you a moron because in a beginners forum, you did your utmost to scare the hell out of someone who is only trying to get some info. Do a little research and you'll see the OP as just started climbing and wants to progress to the next step...not 60' whippers, not major falls on a 00 tcu's... he wants to try leading and wants some info on what that means to a man his size. You basically told him he'll break his gear and die. Now if you want to keep him from ever climbing again: nice strategy; otherwise it was incomplete, inappropriate and borderline lieing. Again: Question: Can I hope to lead at my weight? Answer: Yes, given appropriate instruction and proper usage, current gear can handle a person of your size in a lead fall.
I see, he defiantly got a lot of RIGHT info.
Tomorrow when similar person falls and dies and his story becomes a headline news, Some of the same people who are giving such good advices will run down to I&A like Kingdome of Ants to present their expert analyses on why things went to hell and how to prevent such accidents from happening again not to forget that I would still be labeled as The MORON for reporting it..
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 11, 2007, 6:58 PM)
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macblaze
Jun 11, 2007, 7:03 PM
Post #47 of 77
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My mother always told me never argue with a man who knows he's right... my bad.
Don't climb. It's dangerous.
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binrat
Jun 11, 2007, 7:11 PM
Post #48 of 77
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CC99:
I'm a big guy for weight as climbers go (I think) I run about 235 lbs. Presently climbing 5.8ish as my regular partner has only been climbing for less than a year. I am hoping to be back on 9's by Aug. When I lead I always make sure it's good, test it and move on. Don't get freaked about your weight and the pro, you'll get over pumped and burnt. Like numerous others have stated don't think about falling on 5.6 - 5.7 level. Concentrate on effective placement.
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climbinwv
Jun 11, 2007, 7:14 PM
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My advice would be to learn slowly/safely. We set up a system where the lead climber has 2 belayers. One is belaying him as a trad climb, the other via a toprope. This gives you the feel for lead climbing and protects you from making FATAL bad pro placements. Additionally, try climbing a route placing pro, then have someone more experienced with trad climbing inspect your placements/give advice on how to improve them. Taking a class would be well worth the money too....good luck...be safe!
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ja1484
Jun 11, 2007, 7:39 PM
Post #50 of 77
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majid_sabet wrote: ja1484 wrote: I just wanted to take this opporunity to point out that I have not encouraged the OP to practice falling on anything anywhere, or to practice falling at all. All I did was reveal the origin of Majid's photos and point out that he's a moron, so please don't lump me in your chiding. I knew all of the above long before posting which is why I didn't get involved. So, all of THEM are encouraging 5.6/5.7 trad falls, or whomever actually said it. I have an opinion on the subject, but I'm not going to post it as I don't want to get into a pissing match over a subject that is so incredibly a personal opinion. And a few points: - Aliens fail at low loads when they're improperly manufactured, which appears to be most of the time these days. Lesson: Don't climb on aliens. - REPUTABLE gear breaking is exceptionally rare. - If you're stupid enough to think the system is bulletproof, you deserve death. I may be a moron but you guys are super moron for giving so called expert advice to beginners that is okay to jump and it is okay to fall cause based on the CF manufactures records, all climbing gears are safe and they will do their job to protect you. STOPPPPPP Climbing gears are there as backups and occasionally backups fail (very rare) but like any other hardware, they do fail. The price tag for such failures are either major injuries and commonly involves with DEATH. You as a beginner should focus on your climbing skill and experience as primary way to increase your ability to climb higher and enjoy this lovely sport. Gears and protections are only there as a backup incase you loose it. You want to be better climber then assume there are no ropes and there are no protections and if you fall, you will die. Stop telling people that is okay to fall and if what I say make me moron then that is fine with me.
Once again, you're replying to the wrong person - I never told anyone to fall or said it was ok.
Thanks for playing though.
And regarding gear: Falling is a bad idea under almost all circumstances. That said, modern trad gear, when placed well, is substantially more dependable than the protection of yore. That doesn't make falling on it ok or even a good idea, but it did amend the rule from "the leader must not fall" to "the leader must not fall...very much".
The *point*, vis a vis you and I, is that worrying about gear failure when the gear is properly used is stupid. It's insanely rare, it's not something you have control over, and a million other things are more likely to get you first. Rapping off the end of your ropes, for example, or your GEAR PULLING OUT, which is by FAR the biggest danger.
So again: Please stop putting words in my mouth, and please stop spreading uneccessary FUD about gear falling apart. If it's gonna happen, there's nothing you can do about it, and, that said, it ain't gonna happen.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Jun 11, 2007, 7:51 PM)
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