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mojede
Nov 14, 2007, 3:04 AM
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Having done tons of trad and multi-pitch free routes, I only have knowledge of aid routes/ratings by reading about them.
This guy seems to have it figured about right (in my non-opinion).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boQHYBhlOcs
I love the part where he postulates a climb with three people. The leader starts out on the pitch, then falls to his death due to the nature of the climb. The second climber says, "okay, here's the body--NOW we have a confirmed A5 rating."
"Who's up for the lead?"
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evanwish
Dec 2, 2007, 7:46 AM
Post #77 of 102
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ok i'm a n00b to aid climbing (done a few C1 climbs)
I find this pretty facinating,
but it seems to me.. if A6 is where belay anchors are bad and none of pieces will hold more than body weight..
why would the climber even be belayed.. why not just trail the rope so if the leader falls they don't BOTH plummet...
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lambone
Dec 2, 2007, 9:22 AM
Post #78 of 102
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well because you wouldn't know how hard/bad the placemets were until you got up on the pitch.
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boglins
Dec 16, 2007, 7:56 PM
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Let's say two climbers are 400 feet up at a bomber belay station on an overhanging route. The leader leads off and goes for 150 feet of crap placements and then places a hook and a bashie for a crap belay anchor. The second fixes another line to the bomber anchor and ties into the end of it. He then seconds up to the leader to the crap belay anchor. He stays tied into the first bomber belay station, 150 feet below. The leader then leads another pitch of 150 feet of crappy placements and finally builds a bomber anchor. The second then ties his rope that is attached to the lower belay station into the leader's line and rappels down to retrieve his gear below. He then jugs the 300 feet up both pitches to the leader. Would that be an A6? If the leader popped off near the top of the second pitch, he would rip all the pieces and rip the belayer off the belay station. But both would be stopped after the rope tied into the lower anchor caught them. The second would fall 300 feet (from 150 feet above the bomber anchor) and the leader would fall 600 feet (from nearly 300 feet above the bomber anchor).
(This post was edited by boglins on Dec 16, 2007, 8:09 PM)
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erick
Dec 16, 2007, 9:07 PM
Post #80 of 102
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boglins wrote: ...The second would fall 300 feet (from 150 feet above the bomber anchor) and the leader would fall 600 feet (from nearly 300 feet above the bomber anchor).
can you imagine? the only way to survive that would be to use a bungy rope. the force from a 600 ft fall would be spectacular. likely still resulting in death anyways.
Might as well not stay tied into that lower anchor.
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boglins
Dec 16, 2007, 9:37 PM
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Well, I think Dan Osman's record was like a 1200 foot fall tied to just a climbing rope... I think he lived for at least one more jump... I do agree it would be incredibly scary and rough, especially on the second, who would fall and have the leader jerking on him. But it would still "just" be a factor 2 fall for the both of them, putting very high strain on everything, but theoretically no worse than 2 climbers falling from 10 feet above an anchor to ten feet below it on a dynamic rope.
(This post was edited by boglins on Dec 17, 2007, 12:27 AM)
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dudemanbu
Dec 16, 2007, 9:54 PM
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erick wrote: can you imagine? the only way to survive that would be to use a bungy rope. the force from a 600 ft fall would be spectacular. likely still resulting in death anyways.
It doesn't work that way.
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a.frosch
Dec 16, 2007, 10:51 PM
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In theory, the fall factor should be the same no matter how big the fall is. So a factor 2 (directly on the anchors) fall of 20 feet would generate as much force as a FF2 fall of 100 ft or even more. This is due to the fact that while the fall is longer, more rope is in the system to absorb the added force.
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boglins
Dec 17, 2007, 12:12 AM
Post #84 of 102
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So, would that be a "safe" A6 pitch and could it exist in this case, without the risk of death?
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stymingersfink
Dec 17, 2007, 2:19 AM
Post #85 of 102
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boglins wrote: So, would that be a "safe" A6 pitch and could it exist in this case, without the risk of death?
A6
DOES
NOT
EXIST!!!!!!!
the grade was initially proposed by someone needing a bigger ego-stroke than he was getting from the mags, subsequently debunked by the second ascentionists of the route purportedly deserving of such a mythical rating. Soon thereafter (or about that same time), New Wave grading came into effect, making A5 an even greater rarity than it was already. It just doesn't get any harder than A3+ anymore.
The thing about climbing "A5" is that regardless of how difficult the pitch is, the anchor will always be bomber. Even if it means the belay is a nest of equalized RURPs (or Copperheads... ever hear the story of the "copper corral"?) .
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boglins
Dec 17, 2007, 4:24 AM
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 I guess I'll type even more slowly, because you obviously don't read at all. I've reposted the scenario for you, because you are obviously too lazy to scroll up and read more of the conversation, before typing away ignorantly. I put forth a theoretical scenario and asked if that scenario would indeed be an instance of a "safe" A6. I never said that anything existed, I just asked that if my theoretical scenario existed, would it be a "safe" A6...
the scenario for you:
"Let's say two climbers are 400 feet up at a bomber belay station on an overhanging route (no ledge fall potential). The leader leads off and goes for 150 feet of crap placements (all body weight only and no bolts) and then places a hook and a (crappy) bashie for a crap belay anchor (that for our purposes will definitely not hold a fall and is not bomber). (No other placements exist) The second fixes another line to the bomber anchor and ties into the end of it. He then (delicately) seconds up to the leader to the crap belay anchor. He stays tied into the first bomber belay station, 150 feet below. The leader then leads another pitch of 150 feet of crappy (body weight only) placements and finally builds a bomber anchor (300 feet above the original bomber anchor and 150 feet above the belayer). The second then ties his rope that is attached to the lower belay station into the leader's line and rappels down to retrieve his gear below (at the first bomber anchor). He then jugs the 300 feet up both pitches to the leader. Would that be an A6? If the leader popped off near the top of the second pitch, he would rip all the pieces and rip the belayer off the belay station. But both would be stopped after the rope tied into the lower anchor caught them. The second would fall 300 feet (from 150 feet above the bomber anchor) and the leader would fall 600 feet (from nearly 300 feet above the bomber anchor). (With 300 feet of rope out above the bomber anchor, this would be a factor 2 fall)"
Further, I asked this out of ignorance, because I simply do not know the answer. For someone who posts so many quotes in his profile, sty, here is a new one for you:
"Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn."
- Ben Franklin
(This post was edited by boglins on Dec 17, 2007, 4:54 AM)
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stymingersfink
Dec 17, 2007, 5:14 AM
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boglins wrote: I guess I'll type even more slowly, because you obviously don't read at all. I've reposted the scenario for you, because you are obviously too lazy to scroll up and read more of the conversation, before typing away ignorantly. I put forth a theoretical scenario and asked if that scenario would indeed be an instance of a "safe" A6. I never said that anything existed, I just asked that if my theoretical scenario existed, would it be a "safe" A6...
It's just a dip-shit dumb-ass way to climb A5, which is fine if you're into that on a solo trip, but to subject a partner to such skull-buggery is irresponsible at least, a good way to lose a partner at best... It's simply A5, with a mid-pitch (albeit a long pitch) cluster of crap gear, involving a lot of rope to make a 300' haul, 300' lead and whatnot.
It would require the leader and the second to be on the same page, BEFORE the pitch was lead, else there's going to be a lot of head-scratching going on when the haul line fails to come taut, or the bags are let fly, dragging the leader screaming to his deserved death.
This is why pitches are limited by the length of the rope. When you get to the end, you fire in a bomb-proof anchor, whether it's 9 equalized RURPs, or two bomber bolts.
If word of your "scenario" route ever got out, the little details like you mention had damned well better be included, else know that 200' from the good belay there'll be a shiney new bomb-proof belay installed on the SA, and rightly so.
See... when such "scenarios" supposedly make it out the brain of an ego-stroking semi-suicidal being, they're done while soloing. One must first ascend to "cult-leader" status before talking followers into participating in group suicide.
OTOH...
You wanna try something stupid that won't out-n-out kill ya's? How about spending 30+ days, putting up multiple pitches on an unclimbed, nearly featureless slab, relying on un-enchanted hooks, using minimal rivits, bolting only anchors, knowing that you will fall repeatedly down a cheese-grater surface regardless of skill. Then, watch for 20+ years as the route stands without a second ascent.
Tenacity. Balls. Humility.
edit to add:
I apologize for this subsequent top-posting, but I fully believe that madbolter's post should be the last word in this thread, so I had to edit my post to include this little bit of inanity.
boglins wrote: You are absolutely right. But still, isn't the absolute definition of A6 that "doesn't exist" 2 pitches of A5 with an intermediate belay that won't hold a fall?
The absolute definition of a belay is that it is bomber.
(This post was edited by stymingersfink on Dec 17, 2007, 2:06 PM)
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boglins
Dec 17, 2007, 7:25 AM
Post #88 of 102
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You are absolutely right. But still, isn't the absolute definition of A6 that "doesn't exist" 2 pitches of A5 with an intermediate belay that won't hold a fall? Isn't that what this is? And if it is, it just seems like like some sort of snobbery or battle of semantics not to call it by the word that is defined to mean the thing that is described. It's like defining "dragon" as a giant, fire breathing, flying lizard and then scoffing at the town folks screaming as they run from the giant, fire breathing, flying lizard you insist has to be an "alligator" because dragons don't exist. Whoa...that is just stupid...
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madbolter1
Dec 17, 2007, 1:39 PM
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I must be missing something, because I still don't get the fine points. A6 is supposed to be "you fall, you die." Right? If I've got that much right, then I don't see the point to the whole, "How bad must the anchor be?" and, "How far out is the anchor," and other such nonsense.
Nobody is taking even the real A5 falls. Real A5 is mythical. Mid-pitch gear is always better than it is perceived to be, and simply amazing things will hold falls when some rope is out to reduce the fall factor. So, if A5 just isn't "bad ass" enough, I say "Prove it" by not pretending in any way. Don't pretend that the pitch was "hard" as you clipped into everything you could get, hoping in the back of your mind that something might hold, as you sprinkled scream-aids all over the pitch, while still claiming that "nothing in the pitch would hold more than body weight, not even the anchor."
If you want real A6, it is quite simple to achieve, and real A6 has none of the ambiguities that have heretofore been discussed. Furthermore, a wonderful side effect of this method is that it doesn't risk your partner's life.
If you want to lead A6 (preferably way up on a big wall), simply climb an A4/A5 pitch without clipping your trail rope into anything, including your starting anchor. Your partner simply ensures that your trail rope doesn't get snagged, but he doesn't belay it.
If you fall, the trail rope just whips through an anchor carabiner until the end whips through (good bye), as you sail past the anchor with your wide-eyed partner watching you get smaller and smaller far below him/her. He or she is looking for style points, so be sure that you execute some nice, graceful moves as you are still near enough to your partner that he/she can make out your form. Screams and wild flapping of legs and arms are futile and only prove you to be a poser. So, if you've got the titanium testes for A6, then when you prove the grade you will have style points in the forefront of your mind!
When your speck stops on terra most firma, many seconds pass before the sound of your tremendous (and glorious) impact wafts up to your partner. We're lookin' for the Wile E. Coyote scene here!
To achieve such glory, you lead with your only connection to the rock being the placement you are presently on, no back-clipping, and no clipping the rope into anything (to avoid the off chance that it would snarl at the anchor and catch you even though you are un-belayed). Your partner keeps you honest. When you reach the higher anchor, you anchor and haul as normally, and your partner ascends as normally.
By this method, the world is simply brimming with A6 pitches, and you'll have the benefit of a live partner after you take the Wile E. Coyote fall, so that he/she can tell the world how awesome you were on A6 right up until the moment you proved the grade, and you can get full credit for all style points accrued during the fall. Thus, your posthumous ego-pump will be full-blown.
Everything less than this is merely spray.
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boglins
Dec 17, 2007, 4:05 PM
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HAHA! Well put. If A6 is indeed "you fall, you die," then that is indeed the end of the discussion. I guess my confusion came in because I kind of thought that when people said that, it was just as a side comment and not really part of the definition because of the supposition that the belay would be ripped off the wall if the leader fell, and that would normally mean both would fall to the ground. I was just trying to find a creative way around that unfortunate event that still would meet what I erroneously thought the definition of A6 to be.
Having thought about it more, by the way, my scenario is more like 2 climbers simulclimbing A5 with the second just clipping into the anchor very very long. I guess that wouldn't qualify.
(This post was edited by boglins on Dec 17, 2007, 4:13 PM)
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socalbolter
Dec 17, 2007, 11:35 PM
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Yeah, what he said...(See post 2 above this).
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evanwish
Mar 21, 2008, 4:45 AM
Post #92 of 102
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A6
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keegan540
Mar 21, 2008, 10:40 AM
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Looks more like A5+ to me
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j_ung
Mar 21, 2008, 12:24 PM
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C'mon now. A6 is climber falls = team dies. Anything else just isn't really funny. 
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evanwish
Mar 21, 2008, 4:04 PM
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keegan540 wrote: Looks more like A5+ to me
ok good point....
belay off it and then it's A6
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hairyapeman
Mar 21, 2008, 7:29 PM
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Don't you all think ratings are getting out of hand. Just do what you like and don't worry about getting all the fame for putting up a potential A6 route.
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moof
Mar 22, 2008, 4:44 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: evanwish wrote: A6 [IMG]http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p96/evanphoto/5.jpg[/IMG] Is that Cosumnes RG?
Sure looks like the dinkum area.
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jeremy11
Mar 22, 2008, 5:16 PM
Post #99 of 102
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boglins wrote: Let's say two climbers are 400 feet up at a bomber belay station on an overhanging route. The leader leads off and goes for 150 feet of crap placements and then places a hook and a bashie for a crap belay anchor. The second fixes another line to the bomber anchor and ties into the end of it. He then seconds up to the leader to the crap belay anchor. He stays tied into the first bomber belay station, 150 feet below. The leader then leads another pitch of 150 feet of crappy placements and finally builds a bomber anchor. The second then ties his rope that is attached to the lower belay station into the leader's line and rappels down to retrieve his gear below. He then jugs the 300 feet up both pitches to the leader. Would that be an A6? If the leader popped off near the top of the second pitch, he would rip all the pieces and rip the belayer off the belay station. But both would be stopped after the rope tied into the lower anchor caught them. The second would fall 300 feet (from 150 feet above the bomber anchor) and the leader would fall 600 feet (from nearly 300 feet above the bomber anchor).
Dynamic elongation of typical climbing ropes is about 30% (measure of rope stretch in a factor 1.78 UIAA test fall) so, starting at 700 feet off the ground, on 300 feet of Bluewater Enduro 11mm rope (dynamic elongation 34.3%), the leader would actually fall 300 ft + 300 ft(1.343)= 702.9 feet, and thus hit the ground anyway. The added weight of the belayer would make the rope stretch even more than the standard UIAA fall and assure the leader's fate. using a less stretchy rope is not an option with sketchy aid gear either. In this scenario, the belayer should stay at the bomber belay, and the leader should short fix P1, tie another rope onto the first rope and self belay up P2, thereby leaving the belayer in relative safety. furthermore if the belayer was hanging on the marginal belay, and it popped under his bodyweight, the the leader gets ripped off as well. the belayer staying at the bomber P1 belay would also reduce forces on the belay and cause the rope to stretch that much less.
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evanwish
Mar 22, 2008, 10:36 PM
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moof wrote: zeke_sf wrote: evanwish wrote: A6 [IMG]http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p96/evanphoto/5.jpg[/IMG] Is that Cosumnes RG? Sure looks like the dinkum area.
yep pretty close.
It's just to the left of "Mangler" and the right of "Awfull Width"... we were using it on the offwidths around there..
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