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jcrew
May 7, 2010, 6:21 PM
Post #26 of 32
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guyzo wrote: What you did to the place is down right ugly and serves no, zero, purpose to climbers. Guy Keesee
this thread is good....got me thinking about semi-experienced climbers trying to add new lines at established areas where seasoned bolters have already done their thing.... it seems like new first ascentionists should maybe find their own areas.
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edge
May 7, 2010, 9:01 PM
Post #27 of 32
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jt512 wrote: edge wrote: jt512 wrote: edge wrote: socalbolter wrote: There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and " Puffing Hunchback." - Louie I found this picture in the routes database. Is the rock so chossy that natural gear would be suspect? This sure screams out as a candidate for bolt removal. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/0/328500-largest_2.jpg[/image] No, it doesn't. It's a sport crag. Jay Yes, one that caught the attention of NPS rangers because it was being treated like a gym. Edge, there are on the order of 1500 bolts at Echo Cliffs. The NPS obviously was not reacting to the ~8 bolts on this route. They were reacting to the presence of an endangered plant species near the route. Jay
I understand that, Jay, I read the thread. Still, if the area has so many bolts, why did the bolters in question scrub away plants, lichen, and (I imagine) loose holds to create multiple routes that are being removed?
Eight bolts on this one route, but there were 4 or 5 mentioned. Let me see if I can do the math.... 32-40 bolts? If they hadn't been stopped, would these bolters have squeezed in a few more forgettable gems?
They were treating it like a gym, and for lack of all weather duct tape threw in metal.
I am not against sport climbing areas, just against the idea that "if those people did it and got their name in a guidebook, then I can do it and get props in the next issue," all to the cliff's loss.
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dingus
May 7, 2010, 9:22 PM
Post #28 of 32
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Registered: Dec 16, 2002
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bennydh wrote: WTF is the point of an FA if no one will ever be able to access your route afterward? Egos? ... idiots
What is the purpose of calling them idiots? Ego?
DMT
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kovacs69
May 7, 2010, 9:23 PM
Post #29 of 32
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Registered: Jun 16, 2005
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jcrew wrote: guyzo wrote: What you did to the place is down right ugly and serves no, zero, purpose to climbers. Guy Keesee this thread is good....got me thinking about semi-experienced climbers trying to add new lines at established areas where seasoned bolters have already done their thing.... it seems like new first ascentionists should maybe find their own areas.
That's what I did! Everyone should find there own private area then we wouldn't have this problem.
JB
(This post was edited by kovacs69 on May 7, 2010, 9:26 PM)
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jt512
May 7, 2010, 9:33 PM
Post #30 of 32
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edge wrote: jt512 wrote: edge wrote: jt512 wrote: edge wrote: socalbolter wrote: There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and " Puffing Hunchback." - Louie I found this picture in the routes database. Is the rock so chossy that natural gear would be suspect? This sure screams out as a candidate for bolt removal. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/0/328500-largest_2.jpg[/image] No, it doesn't. It's a sport crag. Jay Yes, one that caught the attention of NPS rangers because it was being treated like a gym. Edge, there are on the order of 1500 bolts at Echo Cliffs. The NPS obviously was not reacting to the ~8 bolts on this route. They were reacting to the presence of an endangered plant species near the route. Jay I understand that, Jay, I read the thread. Still, if the area has so many bolts, why did the bolters in question scrub away plants, lichen, and (I imagine) loose holds to create multiple routes that are being removed?
That question doesn't make sense. What does the number of bolts at the crag have to do with why someone would want to put up new routes?
In reply to: If they hadn't been stopped, would these bolters have squeezed in a few more forgettable gems?
They haven't been stopped. One part of the crag where they were bolting was closed to climbing because of the presence of an endangered plant species. There is nothing officially preventing them from continuing to develop routes elsewhere at the crag. Personally, I think this would be ill-advised, because I think (as I stated in the ST thread) that additional development will increase the popularity of the crag beyond what the environment, the neighbors, hikers, and possibly the NPS will tolerate.
In reply to: They were treating it like a gym...
That's essentially what sport crags are, Edge.
In reply to: I am not against sport climbing areas, just against the idea that "if those people did it and got their name in a guidebook, then I can do it and get props in the next issue," all to the cliff's loss.
I don't know if that is their motivation. I'm against developing crags to the point that the number of climbers they attract becomes excessive, and the crag gets closed down. I suspect that Echo is close to that tipping point now.
Jay
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bill413
May 7, 2010, 10:23 PM
Post #31 of 32
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Registered: Oct 19, 2004
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edge wrote: They were treating it like a gym, and for lack of all weather duct tape threw in metal.
Sig-worthy.
I'm sure someone could turn it into a short story!
(This post was edited by bill413 on May 7, 2010, 10:24 PM)
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guyzo
May 8, 2010, 5:21 PM
Post #32 of 32
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Registered: Feb 27, 2003
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bill413 wrote: edge wrote: They were treating it like a gym, and for lack of all weather duct tape threw in metal. Sig-worthy. I'm sure someone could turn it into a short story!
Ok we will see about a ending.
I owe an apology to Eric Wolfe and Skippy.
I don't think you were involved with the "wholesale rock scrubbing" on these climbs. You just spied a "Good line on clean stone" and just went for it. ... I get that.
And to Ben and supporters I say this.
Some of the climbs you have done in the last year or so are good climbs. I have done a few of them. Just think a little bit before you break out that power drill.
Personally I look for Quality before Quantity when doing new climbs.
We (local Echo cliff climbers) dodged a big bullet. The NPS could have easily shut the whole place down and an act of congress would have been needed to get it reopened.
I think the NPS drew a very clear "line in the sand" for us to use as a gauge of our activities.
All of US need to learn a few things and think about just what we need to do to have good relations with our local land managers.
I learned this. The next time I see bogus shit going on I promise to "really get in your face, to raise a big ruckus, to make it unpleasant for you to continue destroying our climbing places. I promise"
Now back to climbing.
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