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onrockandice
Dec 12, 2010, 12:15 AM
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Yes, that's my point. They don't seem to bothered by what the video shows the public or they wouldn't have released it.
I know what we hear in the video but we didn't here the initial call, or the first contact. There was a rescuer already on the scene. We don't know what he has discussed with the patient.
The patient appears mobile and the rescuer on the scene may well have arleady conducted an assessment and concluded the guy was fine. The collar may just be additional support for the air-lift and wasn't a medical necessity. There's a lot we don't know. There was obviously things done that we can see for ourselves appear out of order. What we don't know is the motivation behind how things were done.
The guy might have been really stubborn and said he was totally fine. It may have been something like, "Okay you are not getting an air-lift out of here unless you let us put a collar on you for the ride out. " That might have been all there was to it.
EDIT - PTFW
(This post was edited by onrockandice on Dec 12, 2010, 12:41 AM)
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dan2see
Dec 12, 2010, 6:35 AM
Post #52 of 94
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The purpose of the OP was to show us some available footage and story, to show us what this rescue looked like. The result is a little bit of education for us plebes who only know how to go up and down the rocks.
I for one am grateful for the vicarious experience. The value I got from the video and story was a general sense of the consequences of this rock-fall accident. I say "value" because this will become a part of how I evaluate my situation, on the rocks.
It doesn't really matter who was right, or what method was SOP. It doesn't really matter who convinces anybody of anything.
Majid's first violation in this thread, was when he forgot his manners and butted in with Post #2:
Majid wrote: I like to see their short haul and medical assessment SOP manual. No medical gloves, one sling connection to wall, etc
Then in Post #14,
Majid wrote: This is another Hollywood vids for you guys. for some this is business and I personally did not like what I saw.
For crissake, the video was shot live, on the scene, as it happened. But the video is secondary: The rescue itself was the priority, and it really happened.
So what the hell is Majid telling us here? Our SAR guys deliberately went out to rescue the man, for the main purpose of recording this video? I say Bullshit to you Majid! Yes you!
In post #16,
dan2see wrote: Watch your manners. Majid! ...
Or if you don't want to try respect, try a strategy that might work even better:
When you tell us your opinion, make sure that what you write is positive and constructive. That's actually a tough strategy to learn.
"Positive" - You must find a way to turn some kind of negative idea into a positive one.
"Constructive" - Then you must add you own suggestion on how we can do things better.
In this rock-fall incident, a lot of positive actions were displayed: Litton was wearing his helmet, the climbers had training for such emergencies, and the weather was good. The SAR guys worked efficiently. Layton is recovering. And the local audience (including me) learned something, vicariously.
It's hard to find anything to add constructively, especially after the fact. But it's not really necessary.
So finally, here on Page #3, Post #52, I am finished with accusing Majid of dis-respect, and poor manners.
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dan2see
Dec 12, 2010, 6:42 AM
Post #53 of 94
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When I first joined rc.com, I did not know what "thread highjacking" meant. Now I'm an expert.
Tomorrow is Sunday. Every Sunday morning I drive my wife to work, then head for the hills somewhere (anywhere) and explore or climb or scramble or something.
So tomorrow, I will be simply following animal tracks in the snow. While I'm focusing on the story the tracks tell me (if I can) I will not be worrying at all about my impact on rc.com. I will not be concerned about how I've totally highjacked this thread!
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bill413
Dec 12, 2010, 6:48 PM
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dan2see wrote: When I first joined rc.com, I did not know what "thread highjacking" meant. Now I'm an expert. Tomorrow is Sunday. Every Sunday morning I drive my wife to work, then head for the hills somewhere (anywhere) and explore or climb or scramble or something. So tomorrow, I will be simply following animal tracks in the snow. While I'm focusing on the story the tracks tell me (if I can) I will not be worrying at all about my impact on rc.com. I will not be concerned about how I've totally highjacked this thread!
Nice work.
And I hope it's a great outing!
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majid_sabet
Dec 13, 2010, 4:48 AM
Post #55 of 94
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(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Dec 13, 2010, 7:49 AM)
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dan2see
Dec 13, 2010, 6:25 AM
Post #56 of 94
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Ha ha ha ha! 
This morning I drove my wife to work (hey! somebody's gotta work!), then headed for the hills. Actually I did not leave the city at all: Fish Creek is a short bus ride from my home.
The park has really great people pathways, and the animals use them too. But the animals prefer to stay in the woods, and visit the creek daily.
The whole area is covered with a network of animal trails. But the snow conditions made it almost impossible to see the details. So I saw how it's a busy place, but I could not determine who's going where, or why.
I encountered a coyote walking from the creek ice, back up to the woods. This was the only animal track I could identify in the loose, powdery snow. I also saw how he was following a deer track made earlier.
Finally I saw that some skiers traveled the snow-covered ice of the frozen creek. But not the animals! They occasionally crossed the ice, but they never hiked along it.
After lunch, I went back home to prepare dinner for my wife (hey! somebody's gotta cook!). She told me about her day, and I told her about mine.
-----------------------------------------
This, Majid, is a fine example of "thread hi-jacking". This is as good as it gets.
The OP is a video and story about a climber who was injured by rock-fall, saved by his friends, rescued by SAR. The tread was collected by BearBreeder (who-ever he is!), for the benefit of the climbing community, especially the guys who climb in the Canadian Rockies.
I for one benefit from this vicarious experience. This is where I play. I regularly explore in this environment, and the story gives me some perspective to help me evaluate the risks that I often encounter. It will encourage me to keep practicing my own rescue routines, as well as renewing my "Remote Responder" certificate next year.
Will the video keep me alive? Nobody knows. But knowledge helps experience, experience builds wisdom, and wisdom keeps me safe. Uh... safer.
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bearbreeder
Dec 13, 2010, 8:04 AM
Post #57 of 94
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still havent contacted them yet mista majid?
a professional would have had a polite frank discussion with fellow peers rather than QB and random photos just to "prove" themselves
wake me up once you talk to them ...
they are your fellow SAR brothers arent they?
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majid_sabet
Dec 13, 2010, 5:49 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: still havent contacted them yet mista majid? a professional would have had a polite frank discussion with fellow peers rather than QB and random photos just to "prove" themselves wake me up once you talk to them ... they are your fellow SAR brothers arent they?
I am sure other SAR brothers and sisters already point out what needs to be known and there is no reasons for me to do anything . if you guys truly think what I have mentioned here is out of line or the 4" crack and blood on the helmet was not that important, then we leave it to other professional to decide what was right or wrong at that given moment on the wall.
At the end, we want to improve our skills and give the best care without jeopardizing our own lives.
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bearbreeder
Dec 13, 2010, 7:02 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: I am sure other SAR brothers and sisters already point out what needs to be known and there is no reasons for me to do anything . if you guys truly think what I have mentioned here is out of line or the 4" crack and blood on the helmet was not that important, then we leave it to other professional to decide what was right or wrong at that given moment on the wall. At the end, we want to improve our skills and give the best care without jeopardizing our own lives.
at the end of the day you really should contact them ... and give them yr advice, rather than trying to say they are just wrong on an internet forum without giving them the ability to explain it
its what any professional would do
unless there is a reason why you dont want to talk to them ....
hmmmmmmm
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majid_sabet
Dec 13, 2010, 7:32 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: majid_sabet wrote: I am sure other SAR brothers and sisters already point out what needs to be known and there is no reasons for me to do anything . if you guys truly think what I have mentioned here is out of line or the 4" crack and blood on the helmet was not that important, then we leave it to other professional to decide what was right or wrong at that given moment on the wall. At the end, we want to improve our skills and give the best care without jeopardizing our own lives. at the end of the day you really should contact them ... and give them yr advice, rather than trying to say they are just wrong on an internet forum without giving them the ability to explain it its what any professional would do unless there is a reason why you dont want to talk to them .... hmmmmmmm
its called SAR politics my friend and things are little more complicated than an average person could understand so I just leave it here.
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bearbreeder
Dec 13, 2010, 7:50 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: its called SAR politics my friend and things are little more complicated than an average person could understand so I just leave it here.
so yr "politicking" parks canada SAR ... i think that those brave folks who put their lives at risk deserve better than this
i think the average person will understand that you refuse to contact them directly and would rather QB them on an internet forum
all it takes is a simple email ...
but hey ... if you are afraid of something .... oh well
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majid_sabet
Dec 13, 2010, 9:46 PM
Post #62 of 94
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bearbreeder wrote: majid_sabet wrote: its called SAR politics my friend and things are little more complicated than an average person could understand so I just leave it here. so yr "politicking" parks canada SAR ... i think that those brave folks who put their lives at risk deserve better than this i think the average person will understand that you refuse to contact them directly and would rather QB them on an internet forum all it takes is a simple email ... but hey ... if you are afraid of something .... oh well
from the vids comments
#
ParksCanadaAgency
1 week ago
@Tanker256
The patient ended up suffering a broken ankle, broken ribs and resulting pneumothorax in the lung, dislocated shoulder, point tenderness in his back and spine, as well as a lacerated face.
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the_climber
Dec 13, 2010, 10:46 PM
Post #63 of 94
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Majid,
Any and every rescue can and will have flaws that people will point out.
I would like to point out a few things that you are overlooking. Lets work backwards on this one. Near the end of the video in the radio conversation it's stated that they were unable to put him on a spine board due to terrain.
His neck was stabilized prior to lifting him off the mountain.
This next point should be what those involved in rescue should pick up right away:
The use of existing materials to stabilize an injured climber. This includes the following as seen in the video:
The use of terrain,
Securing the climber in the most stable point on the ledge,
The use of the pack he was wearing (likely on lead) to stabilize the back and neck, if you noticed they intentionally left the pack on for the flight too.
Without further information on the accident I would suspect the injured climber and his partner were responsible for the initial movement to a secure location on the ledge; Life over limb, high angle is different as you know and one needs to secure an injured climber to avoid further injuries. Yes there are risks involved in any movement, but you need to move someone to help them in the vertical world. In the interest of an expedited evacuation to the Hospital (which is in the middle of the valley from that climb BTW, 6km or so as the crow flies and a <5mins for that ambulance) I would hazard an educated guess that they ruled the body position stable enough to assess, administer first aid, and prep for evacuation. I would also go so far as to hazard an educated guess they chose to fly to a staging point in the interest of stabilizing him further (ie. spine board) prior to transport to hospital rather than flying him directly to the Banff Mineral Springs Hospital 6km away.
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bearbreeder
Dec 13, 2010, 11:14 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: # ParksCanadaAgency 1 week ago @Tanker256 The patient ended up suffering a broken ankle, broken ribs and resulting pneumothorax in the lung, dislocated shoulder, point tenderness in his back and spine, as well as a lacerated face.
still afraid to contact em?
wonder why ... your "politicking" ... hmmmmm
just write em an email ...
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silascl
Dec 14, 2010, 1:23 AM
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onrockandice wrote: Yes, that's my point. They don't seem to bothered by what the video shows the public or they wouldn't have released it. I know what we hear in the video but we didn't here the initial call, or the first contact. There was a rescuer already on the scene. We don't know what he has discussed with the patient. The patient appears mobile and the rescuer on the scene may well have arleady conducted an assessment and concluded the guy was fine. The collar may just be additional support for the air-lift and wasn't a medical necessity. There's a lot we don't know. There was obviously things done that we can see for ourselves appear out of order. What we don't know is the motivation behind how things were done. The guy might have been really stubborn and said he was totally fine. It may have been something like, "Okay you are not getting an air-lift out of here unless you let us put a collar on you for the ride out. " That might have been all there was to it. EDIT - PTFW
Sure, anything is possible, but that's irrelevant in this case. We see the patient is completely cooperative. You don't 'conclude the guy was fine' then put on a collar anyways. They are precautionary by nature, and the use of a collar is determined to be necessary depending on the mechanism of injury. A serious climbing fall resulting in a broken helmet qualifies.
A lot of people in this thread want to beat up on majid because it's good fun, but this specific point is not really up for discussion. There's absolutely no conceivable reason to splint an ankle injury before dealing with a serious head injury. End of story.
This is analogous to a second arriving at the anchor and their belayer them off belay before the second is attached to the anchor. There's a certain order in which these things are done, and it's for a really good reason.
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majid_sabet
Dec 14, 2010, 1:42 AM
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bearbreeder wrote: majid_sabet wrote: # ParksCanadaAgency 1 week ago @Tanker256 The patient ended up suffering a broken ankle, broken ribs and resulting pneumothorax in the lung, dislocated shoulder, point tenderness in his back and spine, as well as a lacerated face. still afraid to contact em? wonder why ... your "politicking" ... hmmmmm just write em an email ...
Are you affiliated with that group ?
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altelis
Dec 14, 2010, 1:47 AM
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Not to be TOO detailed here, but you know you had to be making a mistake when you said NO conceivable reason...
Sure the VAST majority of times, bad call. But there are some times when it just might make sense.
Overall, I agree. Majid's made some good points (in his classically divisive way), and people aren't willing to acknowledge them.
And bearbreeder. Chill dude. Majid has a valid point, both in his critique and in why he should NOT contact the SAR organization that performed the rescue. If you can't see that, sorry, maybe just take a little bit of time and cool off. Nothing like over-zealous nationalistic pride to make you act like a fool.
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bearbreeder
Dec 14, 2010, 2:33 AM
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The bottom line folks is that everybody uis simply making assumptions ... And nobody has simply contacted the primaries involved for a simple explanation
armchair generallung at its best
the rc.com way ... Why ask the actual people involved when you can just qb it all
whether mista majid has a point or not who knows ... One would hope that if he should ever post one of his rescue videos that fellow sar peers would havr the decency to contact him directly for questions before making assumptions about whether he screwed up
he obviously doesnt have the same respect
all its takes is an email ... Hmmmmm
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dan2see
Dec 14, 2010, 4:28 AM
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altelis wrote: Not to be TOO detailed here, but you know you had to be making a mistake when you said NO conceivable reason... Sure the VAST majority of times, bad call. But there are some times when it just might make sense. Overall, I agree. Majid's made some good points (in his classically divisive way), and people aren't willing to acknowledge them.
But it doesn't matter! The video and story told how a bunch of people successfully rescued their friend.
altelis wrote: And bearbreeder. Chill dude. Majid has a valid point, both in his critique and in why he should NOT contact the SAR organization that performed the rescue. If you can't see that, sorry, maybe just take a little bit of time and cool off.
It still doesn't matter. Everybody who was involved in that incident, on that summer day, on the face of Mount Norquay, had a job to in the rescue, and they did it well.
Now, everybody, stop bad-mouthing each-other! BB's two original posts told a great story about an incident that really happened. It makes me puke to see MS and others argue about who is right or wrong!
Right or wrong!  that's all your diatribe is good for!
altelis wrote: Nothing like over-zealous nationalistic pride to make you act like a fool.
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altelis
Dec 14, 2010, 4:39 AM
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No questions at all. You are right (HA! gotchya!). It was splendid work by a dedicated and clearly well trained team. Certainly a success all around. No question.
HOWEVER, this was posted under "accident and incident ANALYSIS". And that's what Majid was doing. It's pretty typical to de-brief incidents, whether the final outcome is successful or not. Why? Because mistakes are ALWAYS made.
When that mistake doesn't bite you or the victims on the ass, you've had a successful day. That's what happened in the video.
Certainly, its not hard to imagine those same mistakes potentially leading to a less successful day, either for the victim (poor neck stabilization) or the SAR member (victim could've had Hepatitis, HIV, etc).
The purpose of the analysis is to LEARN, and we can learn from successful outcomes as well as less than successful outcomes. In fact, often we can learn most by figuring out WHY the mistakes made didn't bite us in the ass this time. This can lead to better understanding of protocol, either by reinforcing it or by forcing us to rethink/rework protocol.
Like I said, Majid's not tactful. I try and focus on what I can change, mainly in myself. It's a waste of time trying to get him to change his approach to teaching. So why not look past that and question whether the lesson is useful or not. It's certainly not always useful (maybe even most of the time). At the very least, this time his critiques were spot on and appropriate for an ANALYSIS forum.
And I just can't help but giggle every time I see that word. ANALysis. Hehe.
"That's why they aren't helping your headache. They are pronounced analgesic, not ANALgesic" 
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dan2see
Dec 14, 2010, 4:40 AM
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I love climbing and hiking in these Canadian Rocky Mountains. The adventure is fun, the scenery is wonderful. I love being up there, and I certainly don't get enough.
I know very well that these rocks are dangerous, in many ways. Every outing is an invitation to disaster.
But that's not my goal. My goal is to explore and discover, to manage the adventure and challenge, and to come back another day. To that end, I study safety methods, I practice safe scrambling on choss, and I'm still learning how to lead a trad pitch. I know that I invite danger, and I do what-ever I can manage it, to keep safe.
When folks tell me "you must do this" or "you must not do that", I listen. But the real learning is on the rocks. But anybody who tells me that this guy's opinion is right, or that guy's advice is wrong, pisses me off. Then I wish that everybody would just shut up, and get on with life, and living.
Listen to advice. Think for yourself. Play safe. The fun takes care of itself.
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majid_sabet
Dec 14, 2010, 7:08 AM
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dan2see wrote: I love climbing and hiking in these Canadian Rocky Mountains. The adventure is fun, the scenery is wonderful. I love being up there, and I certainly don't get enough. I know very well that these rocks are dangerous, in many ways. Every outing is an invitation to disaster. But that's not my goal. My goal is to explore and discover, to manage the adventure and challenge, and to come back another day. To that end, I study safety methods, I practice safe scrambling on choss, and I'm still learning how to lead a trad pitch. I know that I invite danger, and I do what-ever I can manage it, to keep safe. When folks tell me "you must do this" or "you must not do that", I listen. But the real learning is on the rocks. But anybody who tells me that this guy's opinion is right, or that guy's advice is wrong, pisses me off. Then I wish that everybody would just shut up, and get on with life, and living. Listen to advice. Think for yourself. Play safe. The fun takes care of itself.
yaa and if this vids was from another park few hundred miles south of the border, you would STFU and would not say a dam word. go, get out and climb out there and be careful.
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binrat
Dec 15, 2010, 2:34 AM
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airforceclmr wrote: binrat wrote: bearbreeder wrote: full story ... note the single point of attachment leash with a knotted dyneema sling for both rangers ... id assume that they know what they are doing im sure some people on this board will have a fit with that ;) The last I heard, they use full Mtn guides for rescue. ^ These guys are Parks Canada employee's. I've worked with a bunch who are ACMG guides and drag clients around on their time off. You don't need to be a full guide to make the grade but it helps as the competition for the job is rather tough. Cheers, Andrew
(This post was edited by binrat on Dec 16, 2010, 10:21 AM)
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coastal_climber
Dec 15, 2010, 10:18 PM
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notapplicable wrote: coastal_climber wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bearbreeder wrote: so are you saying that they forgot the rules in this case? let me ask you this ... do you believe that the actions of parks canada rescue in this video put lives at risks unnecessarily? ... and if so, is it not your moral obligation as a SAR person to contact parks canada about these gaps? either you believe it safe or you do not ... Without knowing what the standard procedures in this sort of situation are in Alberta, I can't say what is accepted or not. Having basic personal protection gear (ie, gloves) is pretty universal when blood is present. if you closely watch the vids, you see that guys on the ground have their gloves on cause they are medic and follow their rules. I guess at the end, one climber is saved and we can move on. Since they are doing more than just getting vitals, you can see how easy those gloves would become ripped and useless. [image]http://photos.motoiq.com/MotoIQ/Industry/industury-motoiq-clean/A1U0759/844876183_Rg9yk-L.jpg[/image]
Wow, I've never seen those before!
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coastal_climber
Dec 15, 2010, 10:22 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: dan2see wrote: I love climbing and hiking in these Canadian Rocky Mountains. The adventure is fun, the scenery is wonderful. I love being up there, and I certainly don't get enough. I know very well that these rocks are dangerous, in many ways. Every outing is an invitation to disaster. But that's not my goal. My goal is to explore and discover, to manage the adventure and challenge, and to come back another day. To that end, I study safety methods, I practice safe scrambling on choss, and I'm still learning how to lead a trad pitch. I know that I invite danger, and I do what-ever I can manage it, to keep safe. When folks tell me "you must do this" or "you must not do that", I listen. But the real learning is on the rocks. But anybody who tells me that this guy's opinion is right, or that guy's advice is wrong, pisses me off. Then I wish that everybody would just shut up, and get on with life, and living. Listen to advice. Think for yourself. Play safe. The fun takes care of itself. yaa and if this vids was from another park few hundred miles south of the border, you would STFU and would not say a dam word. go, get out and climb out there and be careful.
What would being from the US have to do with it?
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