All AMGA certification means is an individual met the minimum nationally and internationally recognized standard for teaching at the level of their certification. You should seek out AMGA Certified individuals that have experience past their basic certification. If they don’t have AMGA certification as a minimum then I would suggest keep looking.

It should be understood that guiding 'standards' are as much about, and optimized for, the needs of guides as they are those of the clients. And it should be further understood that hiring guides is a piss-poor substitute for the old mentoring system that traditionally brought climbers up.

Unfortunately, that mentoring system system was overwhelmed and outstripped by a rapidly growing demographic in the sport over the past several decades. Otherwise, 'guides' and the AMGA provide no particular advantange over any other experienced climber other than some minimal assurances between total stangers climbing together in the context of money changing hands.

That lack of mentoring has left a vacuum in the sport we attempt to fill with guides, books, classes, and the Internet, but the brutal realities are that a) there is no substitute for a steady apprenticeship with an experienced climber and b) the demographic has now expanded to include a lot of people who will always be at risk so long as they attempt to climb. And absent that apprenticeship system in a gym-powered demographic of this size it's unavoidable that a degree of Darwinian chaos is going to rein over the sport.

That may seem a bit of a harsh bottom line, but the notion anyone can or should climb is patently stupid on the face of it and will always and inevitably lead to a certain percentage of accidents, injuries, and deaths. 'Inevitable' being the operative word and no application of lowest common denominator approaches, techniques, and guidance applied to the current demographic will ever change that unfortunate reality.

It should be understood that guiding 'standards' are as much about, and optimized for, the needs of guides as they are those of the clients. And it should be further understood that hiring guides is a piss-poor substitute for the old mentoring system that traditionally brought climbers up.

Unfortunately, that mentoring system system was overwhelmed and outstripped by a rapidly growing demographic in the sport over the past several decades. Otherwise, 'guides' and the AMGA provide no particular advantange over any other experienced climber other than some minimal assurances between total stangers climbing together in the context of money changing hands.

That lack of mentoring has left a vacuum in the sport we attempt to fill with guides, books, classes, and the Internet, but the brutal realities are that a) there is no substitute for a steady apprenticeship with an experienced climber and b) the demographic has now expanded to include a lot of people who will always be at risk so long as they attempt to climb. And absent that apprenticeship system in a gym-powered demographic of this size it's unavoidable that a degree of Darwinian chaos is going to rein over the sport.

That may seem a bit of a harsh bottom line, but the notion anyone can or should climb is patently stupid on the face of it and will always and inevitably lead to a certain percentage of accidents, injuries, and deaths. 'Inevitable' being the operative word and no application of lowest common denominator approaches, techniques, and guidance applied to the current demographic will ever change that unfortunate reality.

My mentor was self-taught/mentored. He had me do some terribly sketchy things, that in retrospect (after educating myself about rock climbing), I feel lucky to have come out from alive. My point is...there are some mentors who are not safe and its important to figure this out sooner than later. I probably should have sooner than I did, but I was 21 and he was my foray into climbing.

So, this experience has greatly colored my current life in rock climbing. I spend a lot of time second guessing myself and researching almost obsessively about what is safe and what is not safe...sifting through what he taught me that was correct and what was not. On my next big trip to the NRG, I plan on hiring a guide, even though I've been climbing for 10 or so years, to help get my confidence back.

A lot of this post sounds like "back in the good old days" well yes, "back in the good old days" a lot of things, but a lot of new things are good too...topo maps, cell phones, new gear, even rc.com.

It's all about perspective. Even if your mentor was the best you could get, you still WERE a gumby at one point and are also lucky you made it alive to this point. Accidents happen, life is fragile. Anyway, my two cents.

Mentoring may indeed be the best avenue to learn, but how do you find a mentor for a 14 y.o. boy who loves to climb. I have not been a climber so I can't teach him. I am learning along with him. I can't just drop him off at Smith and let him ask around. Thus far it has been easier to hire a guide/instructor than to find a mentor. Are you willing to take on mentoring an enthusiastic teenager?

... and the single pitch stuff will get hammered by a group of 40 disabled kids.... That gets completly fucking smashed when a group of 40 boy scouts decends on your favorite crag..........

I don't want to get too much into it. Timeline for starting was 2002. Some highlights are...my first time in a harness and on the rock was this...rappelling off trad anchors on a piece of choss in the Oregon desert. He did things like jump and yank to test the anchors (as with all trad placements).
At smith, which is where I started, he would not let me go on the "easy routes"...those were for tourists. Consequently I had a truly difficult leading and he would tell me I was too stupid to lead and should get off the rock (a common occurrence. esp. if i questioned him. pls don't judge me, i was ill prepared at 21 for what he had to throw at me...I know better now).
Belaying me with a gri-gri and not manually breaking and/or paying attention at times.
Climbing at Consumnas in CA...had me weakly anchored to a mossy ledge to belay. He went off route, trad climbing over a roof and once he got over the roof found no gear...he had found no gear for a ways under the roof. He decided that a 20 ft. whipper (he jumped) was the correct choice.
The list goes on and I don't remember everything and I don't want to. He taught me some things correctly too (no fabric on fabric ever...as in, don't run the rope through slings...fig. 8 to tie in, always check double back)



You would think. I never found another mentor though. I spent a short period of time here in Ohio climbing with some competent people, but it didn't last and its hard for me to find partners (I'm a Mom).




Sort of agree. But I still feel that if you are interested in the sport, you belong in the sport, to a degree. Maybe my problem is more all of the years of being called to stupid to climb, but I think if you do your homework, you aren't too stupid to climb.


I just want someone to tell me I'm doing it right. Maybe it would be a waste of time, but if it helps me get my confidence back, I'll take it.

[ P.S. Feel free to pm and I'd be happy to help you sort through it if you ever don't get answers to your satisfaction locally or online or if you get too many conflicting opinions... ]

Hi all,
Someone from the local climbing community just forwarded a link to this forum and I have just spent ten minutes skimming through the pages and thought I should comment. I am the National Discipline Coordinator for the American Mountain Guides Associations (AMGA) Single Pitch Instructor Program and I removed tape webbing from the gear list for the program back in 2004. So hopefully I should be able to shed some light on this subject. On the tape webbing in anchoring systems, it’s just fine. It’s not an issue of ‘safety’, ‘accidents’ or ‘UV exposure’. It’s all about application of equipment, techniques and simple concepts. Tape webbing is cheap, lightweight, hardwearing, strong and packs down small, so if these are qualities you are looking for then great, you have found your tool of choice. Static or semi static rope is more expensive and does not pack down as compact as webbing. However, firstly static rope is user friendly and gives the individual more options, i.e. I can create anchoring systems using basis knots which can be adjusted and will be easy to untie after loading. Also, I can create a tether line with static rope and also use a GriGri on this line if need be which I could not do with webbing. So in an instructional setting these are options that I need and I’m looking for. Recreationally I might not need a tether line to be alongside a novice rappeller while I coach them over the edge.

So it comes down to application of the right tools in the right place. We teach and use static/semi static rope in the AMGA Single Pitch Instructor Program as it’s elegant, efficient and gives the instructor options. It’s nothing to do with ‘accidents’ or ‘UV’ on webbing.

On the topic of ‘the AMGA’, I’ll try and be brief. I have never met Joey but over the last few years we have had numerous emails and phone calls with him. At one point I offered a free AMGA Singe Pitch Instructor Course to Joey a year or so back, and he has been signed up on various occasions to take the course with us. He is yet to take any training from the AMGA so I do take offence when I see comments telling people to ‘educate themselves’ and ‘take AMGA training’ even though he has taken none.

The American Mountain Guides Association is the only nationally and internationally recognized Climbing Instructors and Guides Association in the USA. The AMGA is the only Climbing Instructors and Guides Association recognized by the IFMGA and UIAA. The AMGA has over 2,300 members and has been teaching climbing instructor and guides programs and certifications since 1980. There are four levels of training and certification in the rock discipline, AMGA Climbing Wall Instructor (for climbing walls), AMGA Single Pitch Instructor (for instructing top roping), AMGA Rock Instructor (for working in multipitch terrain up to grade III [4-6 pitches] and teaching skills courses) AMGA Rock Guide (multipitch terrain up to grade V and teaching high end skills courses). When contemplating hiring an instructor or guide do your research! AMGA certification is the base standard, after that seek out an AMGA certified instructor or guide whom is certified at the level you require. Want to do a day of Tr-ing, then seek out an AMGA Single Pitch Instructor. Looking for a rescue or learning to lead climb course then look for an AMGA Rock Instructor or AMGA Rock Guide.

AMGA certification is the minimum standard, experience is also a key component of what you should be looking for. All AMGA certification means is an individual met the minimum nationally and internationally recognized standard for teaching at the level of their certification. You should seek out AMGA Certified individuals that have experience past their basic certification. If they don’t have AMGA certification as a minimum then I would suggest keep looking.

Hope this helps.

I don't want to get too much into it. Timeline for starting was 2002. Some highlights are...my first time in a harness and on the rock was this...rappelling off trad anchors on a piece of choss in the Oregon desert. He did things like jump and yank to test the anchors (as with all trad placements).

At smith, which is where I started, he would not let me go on the "easy routes"...those were for tourists. Consequently I had a truly difficult leading and he would tell me I was too stupid to lead and should get off the rock (a common occurrence. esp. if i questioned him. pls don't judge me, i was ill prepared at 21 for what he had to throw at me...I know better now). Belaying me with a gri-gri and not manually breaking and/or paying attention at times.

Climbing at Consumnas in CA...had me weakly anchored to a mossy ledge to belay. He went off route, trad climbing over a roof and once he got over the roof found no gear...he had found no gear for a ways under the roof. He decided that a 20 ft. whipper (he jumped) was the correct choice.

The list goes on and I don't remember everything and I don't want to. He taught me some things correctly too (no fabric on fabric ever...as in, don't run the rope through slings...fig. 8 to tie in, always check double back)

You would think. I never found another mentor though. I spent a short period of time here in Ohio climbing with some competent people, but it didn't last and its hard for me to find partners (I'm a Mom).

Sort of agree. But I still feel that if you are interested in the sport, you belong in the sport, to a degree. Maybe my problem is more all of the years of being called too stupid to climb, but I think if you do your homework, you aren't too stupid to climb.

I just want someone to tell me I'm doing it right. Maybe it would be a waste of time, but if it helps me get my confidence back, I'll take it.

Edit to add...my whole point of posting this was to raise awareness to noobs or anyone that you should NOT just trust your mentor, even if it looks like, at first, they know what they are doing or act like it. It wasn't really a guide vs. mentor argument...more of a please be aware sentiment.

My question is, why would you need a static rope for anchor building? Is there some reason you and your nOOb friend who each own a climbing rope couldn't accomplish this?

What is the upside of having a static rope unless you are hauling and jugging?

As also stated, do your homework if hiring an instructor or guide. AMGA Certification means they have met the minimum standard in at the level they are certified. Do your research, ask around for recommendations. Just like experienced mentors you need to ask around and not just take their word for it...

I am, I'm suggesting a dynamic rope is entirely adequete for toprope anchor building of any sort. Are you suggesting otherwise?

What an incredible crock of shit this is....

static rope is user friendly and gives the individual more options, i.e. I can create anchoring systems using basis knots which can be adjusted and will be easy to untie after loading.

Also, I can create a tether line with static rope and also use a GriGri on this line if need be which I could not do with webbing.

So in an instructional setting these are options that I need and I’m looking for. Recreationally I might not need a tether line to be alongside a novice rappeller while I coach them over the edge.

So it comes down to application of the right tools in the right place. We teach and use static/semi static rope in the AMGA Single Pitch Instructor Program as it’s elegant, efficient and gives the instructor options.

I am, I'm suggesting a dynamic rope is entirely adequete for toprope anchor building of any sort. Are you suggesting otherwise?

Yes, the dynamic movement of the anchor over an edge can very easily saw through a rope. At a minimum it can excessively wear a small section of your rope that passes over the edge or is pinched by a tree/boulder. Certainly not something I want to happen to my climbing rope that I plan on using in the future.

My question is, why would you need a static rope for anchor building?

Joe, I didn't have a mentor, I climbed easy stuff with other noobs. I really though it a good way to learn. Did you have a mentor, specifically in the beginning?

As BillCoe_ and you point out, there is no problem whatsoever using a dynamic rope as a TR anchor, period. Old lead ropes are completely fine for the job. Again, the only issue with webbing is people sometimes screw it up in a variety of ways.

My question is, why would you need a static rope for anchor building? Is there some reason you and your nOOb friend who each own a climbing rope couldn't accomplish this?