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passthepitonspete
Apr 28, 2003, 5:42 AM
Post #51 of 62
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Subject:
RE: Slides and stuff
Date:
Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:30:12 -0500
From:
"Wally Barker"
To:
""Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok'
Pete,
Thanks for the info
With regards to "continuous loops", I have used them since the Spring of 1992. Of course, I had no idea what they were called since chongo didn't invent them till the late 90's. Anyway they are the shit. You can write that.
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socalclimber
Apr 30, 2003, 1:30 PM
Post #52 of 62
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Wally's form of the continuous loop is different than yours. He simply stacks both the lead and the haul line in the same bag. Then ties the haul line to the end of the lead line. As he leads, the haul line comes up on it's own. He doesn't tag. As he puts it, on hard aid you don't have 50 cams on you, so he brings everything with him.
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passthepitonspete
Jul 24, 2003, 1:44 PM
Post #53 of 62
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I used the Continuous Loop with Solo Tagging to solo Lost In America last month - exactly as described above - and it worked flawlessly. I did not use any Double Tagging.
I actually completed the route fairly fast using this technique. Despite taking a week to do it, I never - EVER - started climbing before noon. Coffee to drink, you know. And I never - EVER - climbed or hauled or cleaned in the dark. Beer to drink, you know. [Just because I spend a lot of time on the wall does not mean that I climb slowly - I merely prefer to savour the vertical camping experience. It is, after all, a holiday]
I took Bryan's advice and used longer Klemheists on my lead rope rebelays in order to not worsen my Fall Factor - not necessarily tied with longer prusik slings, but at least put on the end of long runners.
The system was put to the test at least twice when I whipped! Let me assure you most emphatically that the Klemheist knots will slip during a fall as described above. The rope does not get glazed as some have suggested. The ability of the rope to slip through the Klemheist during a long fall makes the system superior to the traditional method of rebelaying the lead rope with a clove hitch, which has the potential to worsen your Fall Factor [and weaken your lead rope with an unnecessary knot in it]
It is beyond my comprehension that anyone would not rebelay their rope while aid soloing! To me it is fundamental. I could not imagine doing otherwise.
The first benefit is that there is no unwanted [and dangerous-as-hell!] slack between you and your lower belay station, since the weight of the rope will not be pulling rope through your Grigri. [And again, I can't imagine using any other device except a Grigri for aid soloing, with the possible exception of the Silent Partner, which I haven't tried since it's expensive, and my Grigri works perfectly fine] There were a few times where I forgot to rebelay soon enough, and was rather horrified to reach down and discover five or ten feet of excess slack! Sheesh.
The second benefit is that if you do it right, there is no abrasion on your lead rope when you are jugging and cleaning the pitch. My lead rope emerged unscathed - not so much as a scratch.
Rebelaying is something of an art, and requires practising. On hard aid routes, the hard aid can come at you quickly - right off the belay - and you don't want to find yourself soloing in a bad Fall Factor situation. Frequently I would start my Continuous Loop right at my pig [backed up first to the anchor, of course, so as not to be belayed from my Docking Tether!], and I would put a Screamer on the first piece of the anchor, so at least I had that much rope to fall on if I blew it right off the belay. I would also add a tightened Klemheist right on the anchor to keep the lead rope oriented upwards on top of the pigs.
I would install the first Klemheist before the first rub point, and I would stretch the lead rope a bit tight with this one [think about it.....]
The next Klemheist I would place using just a bit of slack - around a foot or foot-and-a-half - so that when I was cleaning that section below it, my weight would be taken by the Klemheist immediately above [think about it....]
Subsequent Klemheists would all be placed kind of "re-using" that same foot or two of slack, but without actually adding any additional slack to the system. It's important that this slack be there, otherwise when you're cleaning, the rebelay immediately above you won't take your weight.
So you can imagine the rope tight from my pigs to the first directional Klemheist, continuing tight to my first rebelay Klemheist, and then with a foot or two of slack in it between my first rebelay and my second rebelay, and continuing thereafter.
Specifically, when I was installing say my fourth Klemheist rebelay, I would stretch the rope tight against the anchor, tighten the Klemheist into its holding position, and then once the knot was installed on the rope in the proper tightness and orientation, I would slide the knot a foot or two towards me to add the appropriate amount of slack. If you don't "pre-tighten" your rebelay Klemheists in this fashion, then they will slip when you are jugging and cleaning, and the rebelay benefit won't work.
In summary, I have used this system precisely as described above to solo seven mostly hard Grade VI's, and will continue to use it. Not rebelaying your lead rope while aid soloing is - in my experience - just plain dumb.
I am Dr. Piton,
and I think this system is ETS!
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rrrADAM
Jul 24, 2003, 1:50 PM
Post #54 of 62
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All that just to "bump" your name back to the top ??? You answered this on page one, with even more detail.
Why not just do like others and reply with "bump".
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mikeehartley
Jul 26, 2003, 3:56 AM
Post #55 of 62
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Here's what I've gone to on this topic of rebelays versus fall factor. When soloing, to keep the weight of the rope from accidentally pulling slack through my belay device I indeed do put a klemheist on a piece. BUT I use a "runner" made of 4mm bungie/shock cord and pretty darned long at that. It will keep the belay rope in place while climbing but will stretch/break during a hard fall. It certainly could put enough upwards force to pull the piece its attached to out. That is still a risk but a dimensioned one (I hope).
To address the issue of the rope rubbing on a sharp edge while jugging I agree with others that this is best managed during the lead with directionals or while on rappel.
Lemme know what you think.
PS - sure a Klemheist is designed to pull in one direction but I've pulled on them "backwards" rigging oily 3/8" cable also and had loads of 800 lbs (measured with a dynamometer) with no slippage. It really seems to be determined by the size of cord/webbing and number of raps. I wouldn't blindedly count on one slipping in the "reverse" direction.
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mikeehartley
Jul 26, 2003, 4:01 AM
Post #56 of 62
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"That is still a risk but a dimensioned one (I hope)."
So easy to miss these damned things. Try "diminished" instead.
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trad_man
Jul 26, 2003, 6:16 AM
Post #57 of 62
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damn guys!!!!!! you are so awesome!!! and i used to think that getting to the top of the climb and transferring the rope threw the anchors on a lil ole sport climb was confusing lol props to all your Aid climbers twice :D and you pete i bet it takes a lil bit to type all that
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ricardol
Aug 12, 2003, 6:51 AM
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i'll throw my 2 cents into this discussion too .. only because i have 1 data point to add .. not because i know what i am talking about (i dont) .. i just have direct experience with re-belays and how they react in a small fall on C1.
I was soloing a 150' C1 pitch. About the 100' mark i had rebelayed the rope 2x already. the 1st rebelay at about the 50' mark, and the second about 80' mark. each rebelay prussik was made of 6' of 5mm cord (so the loop is 3' long).
I then took a small whipper when i popped a cam, the fall was about 8 feet long. (the last piece was at my feet - since i had top-stepped the last piece).
.. while dangling after the fall i looked down at the re-belay pieces, and at each one the prussik had moved up to right below the carabiner on the piece ..
perfect! -- no higher factor fall .. and a great benefit while leading since it kept the rope from creeping through the grigri ..
.. so take this comment for what it is.. 1 data point .. i will continue to rebelay my solo aid leads .. perhaps longer prussiks in the future .. but 3 foot loops worked fine this time.
-- ricardo
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coylec
Jul 9, 2004, 2:55 AM
Post #59 of 62
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Did my first solo-aid work. Lots of fun. Did two pitches, both C1 with some cam hooks thrown in for good measure. The first, I was concentrating on making sure my belay was functioniong. The second pitch was concentrating on making sure its was efficient. What did I add, you ask ... "rebelays" of course.
During the first pitch, I noticed the rope starting to slip through the gri-gri. So, I decided to try out the "rebelays". Why are they in quotations? Because they aren't really starting over the belay. Couple of points: (1) you are not using prusik knots, you're using a klemhiest (which will slip, see Pete and Ricardo's posts above). (2) They are merely holding the weight of the rope up to the piece, rather than streching the rope to its full extension (force on rope during fall > weight of rope).
A couple of benefits that I immediately noticed:
(1) ANCHOR - I'm using a cordalette set up for an upward pull (tree, root, tri-cam). Using the "rebelays", I was able to make sure everythign was oriented in the proper direction. The first time, I don't know if stuff rotated ...
(2) BELAY - No more slippage. Plus, when I tightened up the gri gri because I really throught I was going to fall (badly placed cam hook), I didn't have to do nearly as much work.
A couple of notes regarding the "rebelay":
(1) The first rebelay is to make sure your anchor is going to be facing the right way and everything in the event of a fall. You don't want to have any slack, so pull the rope tight.
(2) Each subsequent rebelay will have slack in it (a foot or so).
(a) Why? When you are cleaning (coming back up this line), you're going to have your weight on the rebelay instead of your anchor at the top fo the pitch. You want this slack so you that you don't weight the higher pieces.
(b) This is the real saver of your rope. While your leading up, the only time you're going to really abrade your line is if/when you fall. However, the damage occurs while you're cleaning, swinging around trying to clean. The rebelays mean that instead of sliding 170 ft of rope around, you're only moving around the distance between you and the next rebelay.
(c) The exact amount of tension on it is going to differ based on a variety of factors, including what you're making the klemhiest out of, your rope, your weight -- like Pete said, it's more of an art than a science.
The biggest objection to this system is that "rebelays are death" ... nice claim, but lacking in a warrant or example (remember the Toulmin (sp?)model?). The best warrants I could find were that it would increase the fall factor (which could have an negative impact towards the probablity of a piece blowing). However, as evidenced by Ricardo and Pete's experience (few data points, but better than nothing), it appears that in the event that there actually IS an upward pull on the klemhiest -- an assymmetric "one-way" knot unlike a prusik which is symmetrical -- (1) the rope does indeed slip and (2) there is no glazing. This appears to disprove the claim. This "upward pull on the klemheist" scenario will only occur if the klemhiest loop is too short -- easily avoided by attaching the klemhiest to a long runner. Note that the potential of this problem occuring increases the higher you are up on the pitch - a lead fall on more rope up high will result in greater rope stretch and equal a great lift on the klemheist. In other words, put short klemheists down low on the pitch, and use longer ones up high, even extending them with a runner near the top. The Robbins scenario is also a little scary, but several differences exist: (1) the fall is not held by a prusik knot. (2) a prusik knot is not used. Pete uses the term prusik for a generic friction hitch -- in this scenario, each of the "prusiks" is actually a klemhiest.
Conclusion: The rebelay system provides a number of benefits, including increased security at both the anchor and the belay, without adding any disadvantages. Based on a cost-benefit analysis as it pertains to safety, the benefits of increased security at the belay and anchor, as well as less wear on the lead line, more than offset any risk that could be imagined from a malfunctioning klemhiest.
coylec
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kevinhansen
Jun 13, 2008, 2:33 AM
Post #60 of 62
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Sorry I've got to bump this so I can find it again.
forgive me.
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c4c
Jun 13, 2008, 2:35 AM
Post #61 of 62
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I thought Dr. Piton was dead?
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the_climber
Jun 13, 2008, 4:35 PM
Post #62 of 62
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c4c wrote: I thought Dr. Piton was dead?
No, Pete is very much alive.
His account on here on the otherhand isn't.
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