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How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro?
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Partner zara


Mar 27, 2005, 4:15 PM
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How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro?
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Hi,

I'm just getting into trad climbing and I have a friend who is currently training me. After reading through alot of these threads I see alot of people mention taking whippes on cams. How many of you have taken falls on passive protection (nuts, hexes, tri-cams) and had them hold you?


micronut


Mar 27, 2005, 4:20 PM
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if you don't think a piece will hold you, you shouldn't bother placing or clipping it! i've whipped on all kinds of nuts. when they're in the bomb placement, i trust them more than a cam or bolt. took a 15 to 20 footer onto a #3 stopper......


Partner angry


Mar 27, 2005, 4:32 PM
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A good nut is more confidence inspiring than a cam in the same spot, why?, cause a good size nut is the same as a small cam.

I saw someone place half (one side) of a nut in a bottomed out and flared crack this summer (I read my book wrong and accidentally sandbagged him), he whipped and that crap caught him. When I cleaned it, I just had to breathe on it and it fell out. This stuff is better than we give it credit for.


whiteflash


Mar 27, 2005, 5:03 PM
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A bomber nut is way more comforting for me to place than a bomber cam. Just recently I took a 20 footer onto a mid sized nut. Soft landing and the nut came right out of the slot when the second followed. Not that I reccomend taking 20 foot trad falls...but sometimes that's what happens.


gunked


Mar 27, 2005, 5:05 PM
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Not exactly passive pro but...A 60+ footer on a slung spike that was just a bit bigger than my fist.

Outside of that one, I have taken numerous smaller falls (in the 10 -20 foot range) on nuts.

In general, I feel better about a well placed nut than any other piece of gear.

My 2 cents,
Jason :D


Partner euroford


Mar 27, 2005, 5:17 PM
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nut placements easy to read, when you have a bomber nut, you KNOW you have a bomber nut. i've taken all of my longer falls on nuts.


Partner j_ung


Mar 27, 2005, 6:03 PM
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Oh hell, I've taken all kinds of falls on wedges. If the placement and rock are good, they're diesel.


golsen


Mar 27, 2005, 6:12 PM
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Zara,
I think you are getting great feedback....A bomber nut in good rock is hard to beat. It may take some experience but many people learned to climb with these BC (before cams) and I have fallen on many. I have had a few pop but usually, I new that they were suspect. I have also had a friend (very experienced climber of 27 years, 25 ascents or so of the Diamond) pull a couple seemingly bomber cams from a granite crack (I think it was rock quality that did it).
G


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Mar 27, 2005, 7:43 PM
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still the biggest trad fall I've taken was three years ago in Little Cottonwood, when I rested on a large (#11) stopper that pulled, making me whip about 35 feet onto a #3 that was halfway slotted into a thin seam. It held.

Scary, but it forever cured me of hangdogging.


moof


Mar 27, 2005, 7:45 PM
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First leader fall was a 20 foot head first job onto a #13 smiley stopper in sandstone. Placement was a beautiful bottleneck placement that was good for down and a fair amount of outward pull. Of particular note is that I originally placed a #0.75 camalot, due to the bottleneck it walked like crazy, so I swapped it out.

I've also whipped on a green alien (15' aid fall), and winged on a red alien (3' trad fall).

Concentrate on good placements, not cams vs nuts.

I go through cycles, right now I'm in a cam rut, I seem keep an eye out for cam placements more than nuts. Last summer I was kind of passive crazy, doing several multipitches on all passive (hexes, nuts, and tricams), others with just a few key cams. YMMV


dirtineye


Mar 27, 2005, 8:29 PM
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In reply to:
Concentrate on good placements, not cams vs nuts.

EDIT:

Oh yeah, you asked about tri-cams. I've fallen on some, "magic", tricam placements. One day I'm going to do a bunch of pics of bizzaro tricam palcements that would hold a truck.


sactownclimber


Mar 27, 2005, 8:37 PM
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Oh yeah, you asked about tri-cams. I've fallen on some, "magic", tricam placements. One day I'm going to do a bunch of pics of bizzaro tricam palcements that would hold a truck.

That would be sweet!


fredo


Mar 27, 2005, 10:25 PM
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Hi,

I'm just getting into trad climbing and I have a friend who is currently training me. After reading through alot of these threads I see alot of people mention taking whippes on cams. How many of you have taken falls on passive protection (nuts, hexes, tri-cams) and had them hold you?

15' on a #6 Chiounard stopper, held like glue, but I broke my ankle on the ledge I passed about half way down. BTW cleaned like a piece of cake.


modman


Mar 27, 2005, 11:05 PM
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Thats a funny question because it sounds like you are under the impression that cams are safer than nuts. I have only seen peoplle gear come out and them end up hurt when they fall onto a cam.


Partner climboard


Mar 28, 2005, 2:19 AM
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I've fallen on many more nuts than cams and they've all held. The only piece that's pulled on me was a cam (granted it was in a flaring crack).

If I have a choice between a solid nut and solid cam I'll take the nut, it's easier to visually verify a bomber placement.


jimdavis


Mar 28, 2005, 5:08 AM
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Oh hell, I've taken all kinds of falls on wedges. If the placement and rock are good, they're diesel.

Diesel, huh? And to think I've been using "Yatzy!" when I get those bomber placements.
I might have to learn a new term now.

Jim


all_that_is_rock


Mar 28, 2005, 5:35 AM
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my first trad fall ever was about 10 feet onto a #5 bd stopper in sand stone. it was my first piece off the ground so it woulda been bad if it failed, but it didn't. mad props to nuts :D


azrockclimber


Mar 28, 2005, 1:34 PM
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I recntly took a 25+ foot'er on a #5 nut. I mean...if the pro is placed well in good rock..it should hold. it takes time and experience to determine whether or not your piece of pro will hold....and even then it may not. don't be reckless.


Partner zara


Mar 28, 2005, 11:17 PM
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thanks for all the good feedback.


korntera


Mar 28, 2005, 11:39 PM
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I took my first trad fall two weekends ago. It wasn't by accident, my friend and i just wanted to trust the placement and see if it was good. We only took a 5-10 foot fall at most and it held just fine. I would trust a well placed nut better than a cam, but the places i climb have many cam placements and not nearly as many nut placements.


sirlancelot


Mar 28, 2005, 11:42 PM
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After a year of leading I finally did a smart thing this winter. I went outside and practiced/tested my placements by bouncing on them by standing on a sling. I learned alot and scared the shit out of myself at the same time. There really is an art to placing nuts. Some bomber looking placements were fine when I put body weight on them, but ripped through the crack after bouncing on them. On the other end, some marginal looking nut placements in flaring cracks held fine as long as they were set.

After 2 hours I came to one important conclusion: tricams are better than any other pro out there. In fact, if you see a climber in the gunks with nothing but tricams on his rack - you'll know it's this idiot right here.

Lance


jeremy11


Mar 29, 2005, 12:21 AM
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like sirlancelot said, testing your placements is a very good idea, go do a few aid climbs for this. my 1st and only gear fall was on one of these aid climbs. tested and stepped onto a #6 rock empire nut and it held, clipped the rope into it and then (I must have changed my direction of pull on it by moving) it popped on me, a well placed #5 WC Rockentric (curved hex) caught me for about a 12 footer. Cleaned fine with a nut tool too. the nut that popped on me was a dumb hasty placement (dont get impatient on aid) since when I went back up, a red tricam did the trick wonderfully.


ikellen


Apr 1, 2005, 6:14 AM
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Of all my trad falls, a nut saved me on a fall that had it not, I would have hit a ledge. Right off the ground, about 30 feet up, #6 BD stopper at my feet, with a ledge about 10 feet below me. I had good gear at the ledge, and then the nut at my feet. Fell when one of my hand jams in a flare popped and the nut held me fine.


meataxe


Apr 1, 2005, 2:57 PM
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After 2 hours I came to one important conclusion: tricams are better than any other pro out there. In fact, if you see a climber in the gunks with nothing but tricams on his rack - you'll know it's this idiot right here.

Lance

I understand, on an intellectual level, that tricams make good pro. In my gut, though, I just don't get that warm fuzzy feeling I would get from a good nut. This is for the camming placements, not the passive placements.


piton


Apr 1, 2005, 3:21 PM
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c took a 40 footer on a #3 stopper. passive pro is excellent just spend more time placing to make it bomber, and always set passive pro. learn to oppose passive pro

right now i'm going freakin crazy. it's suppose to rain all freakin weekend. and i want to play. i have way too much energy.


mazzystr


Apr 1, 2005, 7:17 PM
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i took a 35footer, pulled 3hexes. the one i expected to hold didnt and sent me ripping 2 that i knew wouldn't hold a large fall. i 2.5 tricam stopped me 2feet from the ground.

tricams rule!


tadam2000


Apr 1, 2005, 7:55 PM
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My first leader fall was a 30-footer onto a #5 hex (on cord, not wire) in sandstone. It held perfectly. I have more faith in a well-placed nut than an equally well-placed cam.


jaybro


Apr 4, 2005, 4:01 AM
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Good placements work. I've fallen, more times than I can count, on all of them: cams, wires, hexes, pins, bolts etc. Pins and bolts fail the most. I've had one cam and one wire, pop, both of which I had half expected. Never had a hex pull. If you learn well, pro you place yourself and deem good is Always more reliable than an anonymous bolt; who knows what's in there? It's better if you can see it.


curt


Apr 4, 2005, 4:15 AM
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Not exactly passive pro but...A 60+ footer on a slung spike that was just a bit bigger than my fist.

Nectar Vector?

Curt


Partner gunksgoer


Apr 4, 2005, 4:15 AM
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ive havnt taken a lead fall on passive gear yet, probably because if im gonna be bothered to slot in a nut im not in a place that im likely to fall from. i have however bounced and stood on passive gear while aiding and used it for anchors as well. i will say tho that a bomber 13 stopper is the most confidence inspiring placement for me.


aikimac


Apr 4, 2005, 2:30 PM
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My first trad fall, I was topping out onto a steep slope with a thick layer of dead leaves, and it all started to slide. Twenty feet later I was hanging upside down from a #6 Smiley with my head 18 inches from a ledge. The piece was bomber, as was my partner who caught me despite being pelted by falling rocks/sticks/leaves!


cchildre


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Funny how a nut inspires more confidence than a cam! Look at the straight numbers, a cam will hold as many and in most cases more Kn than a nut will ever hold even in a bomber placement. The mentality is yours to shape and as your psychie is the result of your perspective on things. I have choosen to alter mine and give a higher level of respect to a cam placement than a nut. Just my opinion.


samuel


Apr 4, 2005, 3:03 PM
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Funny how a nut inspires more confidence than a cam! Look at the straight numbers, a cam will hold as many and in most cases more Kn than a nut will ever hold even in a bomber placement. The mentality is yours to shape and as your psychie is the result of your perspective on things. I have choosen to alter mine and give a higher level of respect to a cam placement than a nut. Just my opinion.

The kN given on these are when they break, but they can fail before that in real life scenarios.
That is of course true for both nuts and cams, but a true bottleneck placement seems easier to evaluate for most people than a cam in a parallel crack.


Partner taualum23


Apr 4, 2005, 3:22 PM
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Yet another vote of confidence for well placed passive pro. I took my first two leader falls over a #10. It was one of those placements that you look at and say a secret thank you to the trad gods for looking out for you. Looked solid, felt solid, even sounded solid.


boymeetsrock


Apr 7, 2005, 5:51 PM
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I taken a ten footer on a #7 nut, and a ten footer to twenty foot ground fall on a .75 camalot. nuts are without a doubt easier to assess, even inmo compared to the new metolius range finders. cams increase the oppertunity for failure via, incorrect placement, walking/shifting. nuts are less likely to shift, and once an eye is developed for placement, their esier to place correctly than cams.
I'm so scared/inexperienced with cams, that i would rather run it out over a good nu, than even dtep above what i believe to be a good cam. i thought the last cam i fell on was good... boy was i wrong.


tradklime


Apr 7, 2005, 6:05 PM
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I saw someone place half (one side) of a nut in a bottomed out and flared crack this summer (I read my book wrong and accidentally sandbagged him), he whipped and that crap caught him. When I cleaned it, I just had to breathe on it and it fell out. This stuff is better than we give it credit for.

That nut was totally bomber dude! :roll: Never leave the ground without micros....never, regardless of what your nuckle-head partner says.

It all works when placed well. And sometimes even when it isn't.


Partner angry


Apr 7, 2005, 10:55 PM
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In reply to:
I saw someone place half (one side) of a nut in a bottomed out and flared crack this summer (I read my book wrong and accidentally sandbagged him), he whipped and that crap caught him. When I cleaned it, I just had to breathe on it and it fell out. This stuff is better than we give it credit for.

That nut was totally bomber dude! :roll: Never leave the ground without micros....never, regardless of what your nuckle-head partner says.

It all works when placed well. And sometimes even when it isn't.

That guy was totally weak too.


elvislegs


Apr 7, 2005, 11:09 PM
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still the biggest trad fall I've taken was three years ago in Little Cottonwood, when I rested on a large (#11) stopper that pulled, making me whip about 35 feet onto a #3 that was halfway slotted into a thin seam. It held.

Scary, but it forever cured me of hangdogging.


aahahaha, that's great! i know EXACTLY how you felt in that moment.


dontmaytagme


Apr 24, 2005, 6:24 PM
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All sizes of a hex.. hell. Hex's inspire more confidence 'cause i've fallen on them more. :)

ja.


climbingnurse


Apr 24, 2005, 7:43 PM
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How many of you have taken falls on passive protection (nuts, hexes, tri-cams) and had them hold you?

I didn't read through all the posts but thought I'd offer my two cents. I've taken a total of 5 falls onto gear:

#'s 1-3: 8 feet onto a #1 camalot
#4: 15 feet onto a #2 camalot
#5: 25 feet onto a #9 stopper

In general, I feel like well-placed passive pro is more trustworthy than well-placed active pro. There's a lot less things that can go wrong with passive pro.


crimpstrength


Apr 24, 2005, 8:31 PM
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My first and only trad fall was a five footer on a #8 Metolius Curve Nut. I was actually happy that I fell because my self confidence in my gear placing ability jumped through the roof. I now worship that piece nightly with sacrifices and psalms.


dangler1


Apr 28, 2005, 3:56 AM
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Re: How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro? [In reply to]
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The last real whipper I took was on a little blue TCU. The placement held extremely well but the impact junked up the lobe on that little thing pretty well. It stayed in and we finished the route. Solid piece of gear in my bag.

dangler


timmy_t


Apr 28, 2005, 4:48 AM
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Re: How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro? [In reply to]
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Are hooks considered passive pro? Chock me up for 2 falls if so (BD talon, and a pointy leeper). Cam stops? That is just one... that I can remember anyway (it was a good one though, just two lobes and 6 inches lower than I placed it!). Nuts, too many to count. Some memorable ones are a crap #4 BD and another crap #8 equalized, 17 feet up, 15 foot fall. And a #3 BD that I was down climbing to because I didn't think it would hold a fall... and I slipped off and fell on it before I got to it, heh, whoops.

I hope that gives you some confidence in your passive gear!!


lovesclimbing


Apr 28, 2005, 5:05 AM
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Re: How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro? [In reply to]
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Have any of you guys ever fallen on limestone? I have taken small falls on nuts on granit but never on limestone.


graniteboy


Apr 30, 2005, 12:21 AM
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Re: How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro? [In reply to]
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Yeah, hundreds of falls on passive pro over the last 30 years. But no really big ones: nothing longer than ~80 feet.

The Gist of the issue is this: a well placed piece will hold a fall.
A poorly placed piece might get you killed, maimed, or even laughed at.
Your job is to decide which is which, and what's acceptable when it's somewhere in the middle.
Proving once again that judgement and skill are WAY more important than Technology. Especially in gravity sports.


healyje


May 2, 2005, 6:26 PM
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It's a toolbox - learn to use all the tools in it and when to use each one; they're all good. Favoring one over the other just limits your options at any given point...


azrockclimber


May 2, 2005, 6:38 PM
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Re: How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro? [In reply to]
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I have...a few... most recently a 25-30'er on a #4 nut...needless to say I stiil had my eyes fixed on the piece during the whole fall.

a bomber nut is my favorite piece of gear.


thegreytradster


May 2, 2005, 10:39 PM
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Re: How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro? [In reply to]
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Enough to have forgoten most and only remember the particularly spectacular ones.


Partner wormly81


May 2, 2005, 10:58 PM
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Re: How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Yeah, hundreds of falls on passive pro over the last 30 years. But no really big ones: nothing longer than ~80 feet.

Ewwww. I hope my first lead fall isnt an 80 footer....

In reply to:
A poorly placed piece might get you killed, maimed, or even laughed at.

And I REALLY dont want to be laughed at.

Jeff


nedsurf


May 2, 2005, 11:53 PM
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Re: How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro? [In reply to]
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OP, since you are first starting, start placing passive pro only first. this stuff you need to know how to place. Fall on it, after your mentor has checked the placement. you need to trust your gear, you need to fall. you will find that you will trust the passive stuff a lot.
I think the reason that people don't talk so much about falling on stoppers is that experienced climbers trust them well, and there is no discussion. Cams are, IMO, a little harder to tell if it is a good placement or not. I can usually tell immediatly if a stopper is not sitting right.


jumpingrock


May 4, 2005, 3:03 PM
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Re: How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Have any of you guys ever fallen on limestone? I have taken small falls on nuts on granit but never on limestone.

I took a 30 footer on limestone. But it was on a 75 camalot in a horizontal.

Took a 10 footer on a 11 stopper in solid granite. Scared me more than the bigger fall though, but only cause it was my first.


hosebeats


May 8, 2005, 5:37 AM
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I did my first trad route today. I fell onto a #10 stopper that I thought was manky but it held (hard to clean afterward, I guess it was better than I thought). I had a grey alien right below it that was solid. Who knew that a 5.8 crack could shut me down? I sure didn't. I'm sleeping with that stopper on my nightstand tonight and forever will place it with reverance.
I think that cam placements are easier to recognize and thats why they are the preferred choice of trad noobs.


kachoong


May 9, 2005, 2:45 AM
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In reply to:
a bomber nut is my favorite piece of gear.
....I'll always trust a passive piece over a mechanical one....

....the happiest I've been after falling on passive gear was falling about 20 feet onto a horizontally opposed #3BD wire and a #5BD wired hex in a horizontal break.... I had clipped the wire to a sling and passed the sling through the biner on the wired hex and then clipped the rope to the sling.... they pulled towards each other just as I'd hoped (planned :wink: ).... made me trust my placements even more after that....


Partner hosh


May 9, 2005, 3:05 AM
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Re: How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro? [In reply to]
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one of my climbing partners was having a rather off day yesterday and he took a little whipper on a small-ish hex. Passive pro is great, ot holds if it's set right.

hosh.


Partner hosh


May 9, 2005, 3:06 AM
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Re: How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro? [In reply to]
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one of my climbing partners was having a rather off day yesterday and he took a little whipper on a small-ish hex. Passive pro is great, ot holds if it's set right.

hosh.


yeatts


May 9, 2005, 3:20 AM
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Re: How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro? [In reply to]
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I took one of my biggest trad falls, a 35 footer, on the smallest little pink tricam placed behind a manky sandstone flake. The fall was completely unexpected. I was on the very last move of the route and I had had to run it out to the top. I wouldn't have expected that placement to hold that kind of fall considering the quality of the sandstone, but that pink tricam held and came out fairly easily afterwards. So, yes, passive pro WORKS if you know how to place it!


perswig


May 9, 2005, 11:37 AM
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... and this is why we should all genuflect at the alter of the beneficent pink tricam.


keinangst


May 9, 2005, 12:46 PM
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I was pulling for the pink tricam to become the new Pope, but Ratzinger just edged him out.

Only real trad fall was on a #11 stopper. Only about 8'-10', but it was placed well and I never felt scared at all.


gat


May 9, 2005, 1:36 PM
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Re: How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
... and this is why we should all genuflect at the alter of the beneficent pink tricam.

I am also a devout follower of the pink tricam. Funny thing is, I could care less about the other sizes. I leave red, blue and brown with the second every time. But I never lead off without at least one pink.


kachoong


May 9, 2005, 2:10 PM
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Re: How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro? [In reply to]
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I took one of my biggest trad falls, a 35 footer, on the smallest little pink tricam placed behind a manky sandstone flake
Isn't a pink tricam, or any other cam for that matter, mechanical pro and therefore not passive? I think you've wandered from the original question....


keinangst


May 9, 2005, 2:43 PM
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In reply to:
Isn't a pink tricam, or any other cam for that matter, mechanical pro and therefore not passive? I think you've wandered from the original question....

An age-old question...while not SLCDs, both hexes and tricams can act in a camming position, but then again, so can nuts if they're placed in a certain manner. I still feel like tricams are passive pro.


gat


May 9, 2005, 4:52 PM
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Re: How many of you have taken a good fall on passive pro? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Hi,
How many of you have taken falls on passive protection (nuts, hexes, tri-cams) and had them hold you?

The fact that the op considers it passive (as quoted above) makes the tri-cam a fair answer to their question.


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