I’m not sure how one handles the situation with someone you’ve just met and they say they know what they’re doing. The stories here are scary in that regard.
Cheers, Rob.calm
The more experience I get, the less people I let belay me. Someone who tells me they know what they are doing without explaining any further, I am very wary of. I usually wouldn't climb outside with someone I just met. THere has to be at least some form of "courting" before that happens. Usually I develop relationships first in the gym, and i can tell if this is someone who I would like to climb outside with. If I am unsure of someone's belaying ability, I don't get on anything that I will fall on. It is usually easy to tell if people actually "know what they're doing" by asking a few simple questions that demand specific answers. If they look at you blankly or try to make something up, then don't climb with them.
The more experience I get, the less people I let belay me.
Me too. I think we all expect to be belayed as we would belay others. And, as we gain experience, and improve our belay technique, we tend to demand the same level of belaying that we are capable of providing. Therefore, our standards go up. Thankfully, I have a steady-state pool of experienced partners, and virtually never have to rely on an unkown belayer. I shudder when I think of the days that I would go to the crag alone and pick up random partners.
A significant percentage of the falls listed in this thread have occurred when climbers are being lowered off from the top of the route.
It also seems to me many of the incidents described here, as well as a few others I've witnessed, involve the belayer being distracted by conversation, a cute guy/girl, or god knows what else on the ground. Although, I think this is mostly limited to the gym, and perhaps the crowded crag, environment. Whenever a person tries to talk to me while I'm belaying a leader, I curtly tell them to go away; and I make it clear to my belayers that I expected the same. I sometimes wondered if I was being too uptight. From this forum, however, I've gained reaffirmation of my rule that the belayer does not talk while belaying.
Just today, as my partner starting pulling into the crux of a route, a friend comes by to strike up a conversation. I quickly tell her "not now". Literally seconds later, before she had a chance to walk away, my climber blew a high and difficult clip at the crux and took a little zinger. The friend witnessed the whole thing, and I think (hope) she understood how important it is never to distract a belayer.
My story, at Capen Park, I had just finished top roping with a couple friends. There was a couple next to us climbing. For some reason the way the belayer was acting made me nervous so I started scooting over close to her. The young man finished on the book and said let him down. She started letting him down, and the rope started burning her hands. She let go of the rope when he was still about 40 feet up. I made a dive for the rope on the ground. Good news, the young man was able to walk away. Bad news, I ended up with 2 degree and 3 degree burns on my right hand and 1 st degree burns from my ankles to my neck where I threw my body on the rope. Took me 6 mths with a cast on my hand and physical therapy to get the use of my hand back. Was it the belayers fault, not really. This was her fisrt time ever belaying. AND the young man set the top rope up on a PULLEY! She maybe weighed 110, while he was at least 150.
I was dropped once too, belayer's mistake, clean and simple. I was out of work for a week and couldn't climb for months.
There are certainly a lot of bad belayers out there, careless, inattentive or ignorant. But a dropped climber doesn't necessarily mean a bad belayer, just a human one.
Can anyone honestly say that they have never made a mistake belaying, which even for a split second, risked the climber, had they fallen at that exact moment?
I've never dropped anyone, never plan to, but it could happen, that's why climbing is dangerous.
(I'm not being lackadaisical about this, but since I got dropped, I get to have whatever attitude I want.)
I had someone get dropped on me about 8 years ago. It was like getting hit by the hand of God. He was telling me "No good comes from sport climbing". Okay I may be trolling a bit.
But a dropped climber doesn't necessarily mean a bad belayer, just a human one.
Like hell it doesn't. Good belayers do NOT drop people plain and simple (rockfall or lightning aside). I can see it now, some asshat drops some one and then says "i'm only human". Good god man, that would be grounds for a flogging.
In reply to:
Can anyone honestly say that they have never made a mistake belaying, which even for a split second, risked the climber, had they fallen at that exact moment?
Skurdey
Yes...I can easily say this, as can most people that know how to belay.
But a dropped climber doesn't necessarily mean a bad belayer, just a human one.
Actually, that is the exact definition of a bad belayer.
MIstakes are one thing, but good belayers can recover from them and still catch their climbers, bad belayers cannot. DON"T DROP YOUR CLIMBER!!!!
Yeah, we know your thesis: There are two kinds of belayers, good ones that could never drop anyone and bad belayers that could.
To me, it sounds like you're trying to reassure yourself. You need to believe this to feel safe climbing. You consider the people belaying you to be "good belayers", so you can safely ignore stories about people with broken backs.
What happened with the belayer that suffered a rope burn while belaying you? How was it that the rope was running through her hand that fast? Are you 100% sure that the next time this happens she'll be able to regain control of the belay?
You know..... if you're paying attention, and have the rope curved over the belay device when not taking in/paying out slack...... and a climber falls.....the force on the rope is actually very, very slight.
If you pay attention.....you won't be paying out/taking in slack at a time when you're climber is coming off, too. Or, if you must be moving rope(they're clipping) and they seem unsteady, you will be cognizant of that fact, and ready to lock off as they peel.....By the time they are weighting the rope, you'll have been locked off and waiting for the catch.
But a dropped climber doesn't necessarily mean a bad belayer, just a human one.
Actually, that is the exact definition of a bad belayer.
MIstakes are one thing, but good belayers can recover from them and still catch their climbers, bad belayers cannot. DON"T DROP YOUR CLIMBER!!!!
Yeah, we know your thesis: There are two kinds of belayers, good ones that could never drop anyone and bad belayers that could.
To me, it sounds like you're trying to reassure yourself. You need to believe this to feel safe climbing. You consider the people belaying you to be "good belayers", so you can safely ignore stories about people with broken backs.
What happened with the belayer that suffered a rope burn while belaying you? How was it that the rope was running through her hand that fast? Are you 100% sure that the next time this happens she'll be able to regain control of the belay?
Do you still climb with her?
Ding ding ding! Trophy!
Shit happens folks, do what you can to minamize it but the only way to eliminate it is to stop climbing.
But a dropped climber doesn't necessarily mean a bad belayer, just a human one.
Actually, that is the exact definition of a bad belayer.
MIstakes are one thing, but good belayers can recover from them and still catch their climbers, bad belayers cannot. DON"T DROP YOUR CLIMBER!!!!
Yeah, we know your thesis: There are two kinds of belayers, good ones that could never drop anyone and bad belayers that could.
To me, it sounds like you're trying to reassure yourself. You need to believe this to feel safe climbing. You consider the people belaying you to be "good belayers", so you can safely ignore stories about people with broken backs.
So...who did you drop?
In reply to:
What happened with the belayer that suffered a rope burn while belaying you? How was it that the rope was running through her hand that fast? Are you 100% sure that the next time this happens she'll be able to regain control of the belay?
Do you still climb with her?
Legitimate question. We had a discussion about it and I came to the conclusion that yes I would still climb with her. She let a little rope slip through to soften the catch. It was unneeded and enough slipped through to burn her hand. She knew enough to brake NO MATTER WHAT. THis is most of my point. Things can happen that are out of your control and an alert belayer will not take his/her hand off the brake. What don't you understand?
I was dropped by a brilliant climber. His belay skills? Obviously lacking. Inattentive to say the least. I don't let him belay me anymore, although we've been in the same climbing party at times. It can be awkward, but I manage to avoid his rope. I'd rather be embarassed than hospitalized.
To me, it sounds like you're trying to reassure yourself. You need to believe this to feel safe climbing. You consider the people belaying you to be "good belayers", so you can safely ignore stories about people with broken backs.
Perfectly said. The strange thing is that I wish I could have the attitude of blueeyedclimber, so I could safely ignore stories about people with broken backs too.
I'm the person I trust most on this planet, I've never dropped anyone, but I've made mistakes, so I know that there is a remote possibility that an experienced, attentive belayer could still drop me.
I'll do everything in my power to keep that risk as low as possible, but it'll never be zero. Am I a bad belayer?
I got dropped once about 7 years ago while pulling plastic over the winter. It was right when I first started climbing and I was still meeting climbers. I ended up top roping with a girl I met randomly through a list at the gym of people needing belay partners.
My feet were about 25 feet off the deck when I fell near the end of the night and just kept going until I hit the ground. I was lucky enough to somehow get my feet under me and the SLIGHT amount of friction from the rope buzzing through the ATC slowed me a bit I guess. I rolled out of it, stood up and said "Gee, thanks" to the girl and walked out of the gym after gathering my things. The amazing part is she called me a week later asking me to climb again. I politely declined.
It's definitely affected me today. I don't mind (much) falling on lead because I EXPECT the sensation of falling. However, on toprope every single one of my regular climbing parters knows not to lower me as soon as I sit back. If they lower me immediately and don't give me a second to sit back and feel the tension it freaks me out bigtime.
To me, it sounds like you're trying to reassure yourself. You need to believe this to feel safe climbing. You consider the people belaying you to be "good belayers", so you can safely ignore stories about people with broken backs.
Perfectly said. The strange thing is that I wish I could have the attitude of blueeyedclimber, so I could safely ignore stories about people with broken backs too.
I don't know where this came from but I will address it. It is exactly the knowledge of what could happen that, not the ignorance of, that makes me sure I won't drop someone. So, it is foolish to say I am ignoring that.
I know that there is a remote possibility that an experienced, attentive belayer could still drop me.
There's obviously some people here that still don't get it. Belaying is not like driving a car, where you could be the safest driver in the world and still get nailed by a drunk driver or something else outside your control.
When it comes to belaying, if you're doing it right, you're not going to drop somebody; if you do drop somebody, you're not doing it right. Experienced, attentive belayers don't drop people. Like happiegrrl said, it's not brain surgery.
In nine years of climbing, I've never dropped anyone. Never come close. Never will. I just don't do shit that could cause me to drop someone. I've seen plenty of climbers who think they're safe belayers, but that have bad belaying habits. And while it's not my job to fix them, I'll be damned if I'll climb with them. It *is* possible to never drop someone.
Oh, and I've never been dropped.
My story: I was belaying a second from an inappropriate stance, and when the second fell, a directional popped, pulling me off my stance. I was pulled over backwards and down nearly ten feet on a steep slab. I never let any rope slide through the ATC.
The only way I'll ever drop someone is if I forget to screw closed the gate on my belay biner, and it somehow unclips or the rope comes out. Since I check it every climb, the chances of that are so low as to be close to nil.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Feb 21, 2007, 9:57 PM)
Never been dropped. Came close a long time ago, but she caught me 3 feet before I hit. She never belayed me again.
It's very simple: When you belay, YOU HAVE NO FREE WILL. Everything is subservient to NOT LETTING THE LEADER HIT THE GROUND (or any intermediate ledges).
Oh, but if the leader is running it out, falls, and decks, it is his/her own fault, DUH.
Personally, I am pretty casual beyond that, though. I don't really care if I fall too far, or if i don't get enough tension while I'm fagging my way up some out-of-my-league-hangdong-fest. As long as my belayer does everything possible to keep me uninjured, it is all good.
Experienced, attentive belayers don't drop people.
Except that sometimes they do. Recently a 20+ year climber ("Belayer"), who has caught over a thousand falls, dropped his partner ("Climber"). Climber had just clipped the bolt that protected the crux move. The bolt was overhead, hence Climber was essentially toproping the crux move. Belayer was distracted by a pesky dog that had gotten underfoot at the very instant that Climber fell. Belayer had a loose grip on the brake side of the grigri, but, since the fall was essentially a TR fall, it did not shock load the grigri, and Belayer's loose grip was not sufficient to arrest the fall in time. Climber hit the ground with rope stretch, and suffered only a minor ankle sprain.
Belayer error? Sure, but one that any of us could just as easily have made.
Experienced, attentive belayers don't drop people.
Except that sometimes they do. Recently a 20+ year climber ("Belayer"), who has caught over a thousand falls, dropped his partner ("Climber"). Climber had just clipped the bolt that protected the crux move. The bolt was overhead, hence Climber was essentially toproping the crux move. Belayer was distracted by a pesky dog that had gotten underfoot at the very instant that Climber fell. Belayer had a loose grip on the brake side of the grigri, but, since the fall was essentially a TR fall, it did not shock load the grigri, and Belayer's loose grip was not sufficient to arrest the fall in time. Climber hit the ground with rope stretch, and suffered only a minor ankle sprain.
Belayer error? Sure, but one that any of us could just as easily have made.
Jay
Agreed, and I've found myself distracted momentarily by dogs or other things (fortunately not at a crucial moment as in your example). But if I'm distracted, I'm no longer an attentive belayer. So my statement above stands.
The only good thing about my experience getting dropped by a belayer is that it's made me a fanatic about not dropping somebody myself (knock on wood!), since I know the consequences firsthand.
Experienced, attentive belayers don't drop people.
Except that sometimes they do. Recently a 20+ year climber ("Belayer"), who has caught over a thousand falls, dropped his partner ("Climber"). Climber had just clipped the bolt that protected the crux move. The bolt was overhead, hence Climber was essentially toproping the crux move. Belayer was distracted by a pesky dog that had gotten underfoot at the very instant that Climber fell. Belayer had a loose grip on the brake side of the grigri, but, since the fall was essentially a TR fall, it did not shock load the grigri, and Belayer's loose grip was not sufficient to arrest the fall in time. Climber hit the ground with rope stretch, and suffered only a minor ankle sprain.
Belayer error? Sure, but one that any of us could just as easily have made.
Jay
Agreed, and I've found myself distracted momentarily by dogs or other things (fortunately not at a crucial moment as in your example). But if I'm distracted, I'm no longer an attentive belayer. So my statement above stands.
The only good thing about my experience getting dropped by a belayer is that it's made me a fanatic about not dropping somebody myself (knock on wood!), since I know the consequences firsthand.
JL
You also said "if you're doing it right you're not going to drop someone". So if there's a possible distraction you're not doing it right?? Its kinda like when you're driving a car, and you're perfectly safe but there are other things going on on the road you have to avoid.
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