You also said "if you're doing it right you're not going to drop someone". So if there's a possible distraction you're not doing it right?? Its kinda like when you're driving a car, and you're perfectly safe but there are other things going on on the road you have to avoid.
That's right! I may not have any control over what's going on around me when I'm belaying (dogs, bee stings, people talking to me, etc.), but I do have some control over how I react to it. If I allow myself to be distracted, I'm not doing it right.
My point is not that people don't make mistakes; my point is that a climber getting dropped isn't just a random roll of the dice, as some of the posters seem to think. If you get dropped by your belayer, it's because they did something wrong. You may forgive them, but gravity won't.
The point you and others are glossing over is that there is a distinct difference between objective and subjective dangers. My belaying practices should be sufficient that there is no subjective danger in being belayed by me. However, my belaying practices do not account for all objective dangers. If I get struck by lightning, I give no guarantees about the worth of my belay. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and say that I'd probably give a pretty worthless belay while I'm flopping around like a rag doll with a gajillion volts flowing through me.
The point you and others are glossing over is that there is a distinct difference between objective and subjective dangers. My belaying practices should be sufficient that there is no subjective danger in being belayed by me. However, my belaying practices do not account for all objective dangers. If I get struck by lightning, I give no guarantees about the worth of my belay. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and say that I'd probably give a pretty worthless belay while I'm flopping around like a rag doll with a gajillion volts flowing through me.
Experienced, attentive belayers don't drop people.
Except that sometimes they do. Recently a 20+ year climber ("Belayer"), who has caught over a thousand falls, dropped his partner ("Climber"). Climber had just clipped the bolt that protected the crux move. The bolt was overhead, hence Climber was essentially toproping the crux move. Belayer was distracted by a pesky dog that had gotten underfoot at the very instant that Climber fell. Belayer had a loose grip on the brake side of the grigri, but, since the fall was essentially a TR fall, it did not shock load the grigri, and Belayer's loose grip was not sufficient to arrest the fall in time. Climber hit the ground with rope stretch, and suffered only a minor ankle sprain.
Belayer error? Sure, but one that any of us could just as easily have made.
Jay
Agreed, and I've found myself distracted momentarily by dogs or other things (fortunately not at a crucial moment as in your example). But if I'm distracted, I'm no longer an attentive belayer. So my statement above stands.
Congratulation, you win the formal argument (not really, but it's beside the point). The fact is that in practice we all get distracted occasionally. All we can do is try to minimize the distractions.
New Poll: Ever Blown Your Redpoint Because the Belayer, Hit By Lightning, Pulled You Off the Route by Flopping Around Like a Fish?"
I would never be so bold as to claim "I'll Never...."(drop). God - I HOPE I never do! I WILL say, that "a pesky dog" - even one with unfortuitous timing - is NOT an excuse to be innatentive with the belay.
I often have Teddy along with me at the crag and sometimes I need to attend to him. Sometimes, even, other dogs come along and...become pesky!
When I am belaying - dog issue or some other "distracting" issue - my primary focus MUST be on my climber. It IS possible, to handle more than one thing while belaying, and belaying well. The secondary focus must remain that - secondary. And if it is in danger of overtaking first place - it MUST be forfeited.
I do want to reiterate, though, that I think it is hubris to say "I'll never...." It just feels like a bad omen, to do so. For me.
New Poll: Ever Blown Your Redpoint Because the Belayer, Hit By Lightning, Pulled You Off the Route by Flopping Around Like a Fish?"
I would never be so bold as to claim "I'll Never...."(drop). God - I HOPE I never do! I WILL say, that "a pesky dog" - even one with unfortuitous timing - is NOT an excuse to be innatentive with the belay.
I often have Teddy along with me at the crag and sometimes I need to attend to him. Sometimes, even, other dogs come along and...become pesky!
When I am belaying - dog issue or some other "distracting" issue - my primary focus MUST be on my climber. It IS possible, to handle more than one thing while belaying, and belaying well. The secondary focus must remain that - secondary. And if it is in danger of overtaking first place - it MUST be forfeited.
Well, frankly, you ought to leave "Teddy" home, but I realize that as a dog owner you'll rationalize why it's ok to bring him, despite the fact that he occasionally distracts you, other belayers, and other climbers.
i've only been "dropped" once. my buddy and i were at the gym (because it rains like hell in washington) and he thought he would be funny. as he was letting off of a route, his hand "slipped" and he let me fall for close to 10 feet. after yelling and cursing, we laughed about it.
honestly though, i've never been dropped by anyone. i try to be careful about who i climb with.
The point you and others are glossing over is that there is a distinct difference between objective and subjective dangers. My belaying practices should be sufficient that there is no subjective danger in being belayed by me. However, my belaying practices do not account for all objective dangers. If I get struck by lightning, I give no guarantees about the worth of my belay. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and say that I'd probably give a pretty worthless belay while I'm flopping around like a rag doll with a gajillion volts flowing through me.
GO
Well, yeah, I thought that went without saying!
JL
Sorry, I meant this response for Granitegrrl, only you posted while I was writing.
Granitegrrrl and others are taking the tack that "shit happens". Making analogies like "Its kinda like when you're driving a car, and you're perfectly safe but there are other things going on on the road you have to avoid. "
I disagree with this viewpoint. There are plenty of places to climb where the risks of idiots dropping biners on your head is minimized. And the whole "shit happens" viewpoint, while understandable, still seems like a cop-out to me.
Let me be even clearer - if Teddy were jump on my foot, hump my leg, and bite the rope, I would not let go of the brake strand of the rope. I might give a really shitty belay until the dog was out of the way, but I would not drop my partner.
By the way Happie, Teddy is a sweet dog - I know he's not likely to do any of these things. But all I really can take responsibility for is my own actions.
Let me be even clearer - if Teddy were jump on my foot, hump my leg, and bite the rope, I would not let go of the brake strand of the rope. I might give a really shitty belay until the dog was out of the way, but I would not drop my partner.
That is essentially what happened with my friend, only his belay was slightly too shitty. He didn't let go of the brake side of the rope, but he didn't have quite a strong enough grip on it either. The climber more-or-less sagged onto the rope and didn't shock load the grigri. The belayer was looking down just at the instant of the fall, and could not react quite quickly enough to prevent the climber from decking with rope stretch. Ironically, the reason the belayer looked down in the first place was that he was anticipating the climber to fall at that very spot, and wanted to be sure the dog would not interfere with the belay.
Well, frankly, you ought to leave "Teddy" home, but I realize that as a dog owner you'll rationalize why it's ok to bring him, despite the fact that he occasionally distracts you, other belayers, and other climbers.
Jay
The mascot of the Gunks shouldn't be allowed to reign in his domain??? Surely you jest.
Teddy has Dick Williams in his pocket. The man even has to pay protection(a share of his chicken lunch) to keep Teddy quiet.
Besides, Teddy helps with trailwork. See him here, having just acted as a digger for a retaining wall's rock placement. How many other people can say their canine's on the trail crew?
Proof that, not only can any thread be turned into a No dogs at the crag thread, they can also be a tool for opportunity to post Teddy pictures!
Back to the dropped thread.....
If you're worried about getting dropped....maybe you should get one of these from my cafepress shop....(cafepress.com/climbaddict)
OH - what a shameless woman I am. Pictures of my dog AND a plug for my t-shirt shop all in one post.....
Back to the Dropped thread....
I'm going to the gym tomorrow. First time is about a year. If I get roped, I'll be belayed by a stranger, most likely. Hope I don't get dropped.....
Went to the gym last night with wonderwoman, saw cracklover there and we all had a good chuckle about all the dropping that's going on. It became the joke of the night. "Hey Gabe, want a belay? I promise I won't drop you....Then again, I haven't dropped anyone yet, so I am probably over due."
Bottom line....If you ever say "shit happens" to me, then you are not belaying me. DON"T DROP YOUR CLIMBER!
My theory is that someone, somewhere in the world, is being 'grigried' on the average of about every 15 minutes. I'm sure if it were studied long enough it would be discovered that all the friction of feet on holds create a significant static charge within a gym. That builtup potential eventually discharges in an invisible lightning bolt that always strikes the grigri arm which, you'll notice, is completing a grounder loop. Protecting against this phenomena is going to be a significant scientific challenge no matter how you look at it. Be safe out there - and don't shuffle your feet to much.
If this poll is even close to accurate, almost 40% of climbers have been dropped. I am amazed by this. I would like to know what percentage have been more recently. I bet if you graphed it, it would look something like the world temp/global warming graph (note: I am not actually blaming dropped climbers on global warming, but you never know).
First off, this is rc.com, and though I know that nobody on this thread is an idiot rockstar wannabe gymbbaby with a RedBull addled attention span.... the fact is that...well.....If you posted the query on other sites with a more old-school mindset, or local sites where the userbase is nearly 100% outdoors climbing, with gym being an adjunct only, and people didn't consider themselves "climbers" just because they owned a harness, shoes and chalkbag.... the results would be much different.
Plus....remember that at least a slightly significant percent of "the dropped" are no longer available to speak of the experience. In an arena (gym) where 30 foot drops onto flat, padded landings don't offer such dire consequences, it would be "reasonable" to expect a more cavalier attitude(I am not condoning that attitude, just saying I can see how it can be fostered).
My experience with witnessing the physical effects of a ground splat are (thankfully) very small. But seeing someone carry the fallen climber's helmet to a water source and pour out the blood provided me an incentive to remember how imperative dilligence really is. That sort of imagery just doesn't exist in a plastic environment.....
I need a poll box marked "Dropped only once but I still let them belay me".
It was a freak accident involving a bad combination of unfamiliar belay device + brand new rope with some stubborn coils. I (miraculously) wasn't injured.
If it had been anyone else I wouldn't have considered climbing with them again.
If this poll is even close to accurate, almost 40% of climbers have been dropped. I am amazed by this. I would like to know what percentage have been more recently. I bet if you graphed it, it would look something like the world temp/global warming graph (note: I am not actually blaming dropped climbers on global warming, but you never know).
Josh
I guarantee most would be recent, because most of the users here are pretty new to climbing*. Could be a trend, could not be, no way to tell.
Edited to add: I do share your shock and dismay, though.
GO
*According to polls done a year or two ago.
(This post was edited by cracklover on Feb 26, 2007, 4:10 PM)
First off, this is rc.com, and though I know that nobody on this thread is an idiot rockstar wannabe gymbbaby with a RedBull addled attention span.... the fact is that...well.....If you posted the query on other sites with a more old-school mindset, or local sites where the userbase is nearly 100% outdoors climbing, with gym being an adjunct only, and people didn't consider themselves "climbers" just because they owned a harness, shoes and chalkbag.... the results would be much different.
Plus....remember that at least a slightly significant percent of "the dropped" are no longer available to speak of the experience. In an arena (gym) where 30 foot drops onto flat, padded landings don't offer such dire consequences, it would be "reasonable" to expect a more cavalier attitude(I am not condoning that attitude, just saying I can see how it can be fostered).
Did a little survey on supertopo. Of course it's a perfect test-case of your first point, as it's quite the opposite of rc.com in the ways you describe above. But before I present my results, I also agree with your second point, and feel that you've even left out one area - those climbers who've dropped or been dropped, and while they may not have died, they may have had a significantly traumatic experience to have drifted away from climbing. In other words, for at least two reasons, the supertopo world may be a self-selecting pool of non-droppers. With that said:
At 59 posts, the totals are: Yes, has either dropped or been dropped - 17 No, never dropped or been dropped - 15
My arbitrary rule was that you had to have fallen into a ledge or had the belayer never catch you to qualify.
You'll note that more had been dropped than not dropped!
As you probably know, I am a participant at that site. I noticed your thread over there pretty much from the start.
I do admit that the 'drop level' suprised me, though....a pretty significant number of them were from drops a decade and more ago. Numbers are interesting....how can one really quantify accurately?
What did not surprise me, was the difference in attitude. Nobody over there took a "shit hapens, uou get dropped, you aren't hurt so get over yourself" attitude. Moreso, it was an atmosphere of having broken the cardinal rule; If a leader "Must Not Fall," the belayer's is "Must Not Drop." While the leader's rule has changed with the advent of better improvements in gear and ropes, there's still no technical advance that lessens the catcher's responsibility.
Maybe someone should invent some sort of gigandumundo friction knot sort of devise that slips over the rope, after the belay device. The belayer holds it in their hand, releasing the pressure as one does an rappel. And if the rope gets away from them in a fall, the 'knot' clenches(or more likely gets snarled in the belay device). Problem solved...nobody has to take responsiblity anymore....
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