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ericulner
Feb 23, 2005, 10:00 PM
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“It seems people on here have me out to be the bad guy when it seems all I am is misunderstood and criticized for trying to turn a touchy subject half civil.”
I never said you were “bad”. I said that you were presumptuous, condescending in tone regarding trad, and irritating. I think that all of my responses on this thread have been well above half civil. You have to understand that when communicating written word, the reader can only go by the words that you’ve written. So when you make statements such as these-
“Yeah it sucks, why take away all the bold routes? I mean there are already tons and tons of sport climbs at jackson so why bolt routes that have questionable gear, just because teh gear is questionable. Stop the grid and retro bolting of Jackson Falls!!!”
-then expect for the recipients about whom you speak to counter.
What made this all a “touchy subject” (once again) is the fact that the “complainers” (as you labeled yourself) began the finger-pointing fest on an Internet forum, when it could’ve been handled in private.
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jake83
Feb 24, 2005, 5:41 PM
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I'll keep it short and sweet. Maybe I did bring uo the subject in the wrong way but I wanted some oppinions from other climbers around the country rather than soill or indianna.anyways i think we should have a SICA meeting very soon since the last one that I recall was about four years ago in Mt.Vernon, unless I missed something. The thing that first got me fired up was the bolts I saw on easy slab 5.5-7 . I may not climb it anymore but that has been a lead/solo or a TR it simpliy didn't need to be bolted. The gear might be sketchy but thats part of the fun of climbing. I'm not trying to start a war just a little conversation. this is a chat forum not a name calling forum.peace out.
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mistymountainhop
Feb 24, 2005, 6:39 PM
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Keeping it under 30 seconds...........
Ive chosen to keep my input rather limited due to the increasing hostility of this thread. Even as i begin to write this post i can imagine how many burns i might receive for something that isnt that offensive. So Ill isnt exactly the largest climbing area. A good amount of climbers call Jackson their home craig, these climbers are all around the state, many from St. Louis and Chicago. I dont mean to rip on Jackson, but its not the biggest climbing area. If some routes are changed or added of course people will notice. Just imagine if a route at Rifle or Penitente was rebolted or bolted with the first bolt close to the ground, there would not really be an issue like this has become.
The same thing happened, but the difference is like comparing a big city mentality and a small town mentality. So Ill climbing is much more limited than a gigantic area, so of course something will be noticed and people will bitch, people will be misinformed that one of their few routes has been changed, and the issue will become a needless soap opera. What little activity that goes on will be heavily criticized by the already bored climbing community which is desperate for something new to talk about. In essence controversy is a product of our small climbing community. This is not much of something to get all worked up about, its not like some wackos going around and chopping routes.
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organic
Feb 24, 2005, 6:41 PM
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In reply to: this is a chat forum not a name calling forum.peace out.
Preach it!!
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gymslackerclimber
Feb 24, 2005, 7:24 PM
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hi all,, i just went to jackson falls for the first time last weekend,, it was great, met some cool people,, also met some as* hole*, sent some great booulder problems and some great sport routes.. I have a few guestions,, although this fourm is going in a different way with figuring out who, why, for what reason, and bunch of poo hoo bull crap, i just wanted to get some inifo, the cliimbs to the left of master marley,, i cant rember if it is one or two climbs to the left,, the belayis right by that little tree, anyways someone told me that it was an easy 10,, well my buddies and i all concured that it must at least be a 10d,, i am i way off?? and how about the problems by yosemitte slab,, i think its called (fussion) well some regulars were climbing and they said that the start under the roof was a V7 and the start on the arrete was a V6,,, well,, i thought the start move was like a V5 and the rest of it going along the arrete was like a V4,, am i way off about that also,, and i have read the disputes about Fine Nine,, but that is no freekin nine,, after climbing lovley arrete (great climb) which was a 11-,, and maybe one time it was a nine,, but um-years later its got to be at least a 10 a-b.. OK thanks for listenig/reading.. group therapy and the climb next to it is tons of fun!! -Harlan
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mingleefu
Feb 24, 2005, 8:02 PM
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In reply to: group therapy and the climb next to it is tons of fun!!
No, the routes next to Group therapy are psycho therapy (10c) to the right, and squirrel house crack (9) to the left. Tons of Fun (10d) is further down the trail. hyuk hyuk..
Fine Nine is a 5.9. It's slabby, and you have to actually use balance and can't crank through the cruxes like you can on Lovely arete (11a, not 11-). I doubt it will get a higher grade in the new guidebook (buy one at VerticalHeartland.com). It seems hard for its grade because there aren't many slab routes to compare it to. Although, I'm pretty sure that the route to the left of Fine Nine is solid 5.12 slab. hahaha...
Left of Master Marley?? around the arete on the South side of Spleef peak?? I'm pretty sure those are some tough routes.. in the 12's. Now, if you're talking to the right of master marley, on the side that faces over to Morning Beers, then you're talking about a couple thin cracks on nearly vertical rock, that wouldn't protect very well on gear (which is why they were justifiably bolted) The crack just to the right of Master Marley is "Rattler" (10a), and then "through the smoke" (5.9). Those ratings are accurate- but like Fine Nine, they rely heavily on footwork, and not big crankin'. I think you should go try to climb the seam up Yosemite slab without using your hands. You'll learn what it means to use your feet on slab in no time!!
I believe the arete start on the boulder that is just up the hill from Yosemite Slab to be V3-4ish. To start under the boulder (further downhill) is closer to V6, and is the route called "fusion". If you start around the arete to the right (just under the roof), and throw back left to climb the arete, you've done an unnamed V7. This is all from Drtopo's So Ill bouldering guide. Page 6. Behold the power of guidebooks.
And to bring this diddy full circle, I'll just voice my support of Eric, Jeff, and the whole clan of folk who are involved in developing Jackson Falls. My only point of contrition is that I'm leaving the area and won't be able to enjoy all of the new routes. Hey Eric- when will the new guide be out? hahaha- I bet you won't miss hearing that!! Thanks for all your hard work, seriously.
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ericulner
Feb 24, 2005, 8:39 PM
Post #32 of 76
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Misty wrote- "This is not much of something to get all worked up about,"
Then why did you post this and flame Jeff?
"Jeff as I believe, actually lived in So Ill for quite some time before becoming a guide in Oregon. Hes trying to move down here and in the meantime hes turning jackson into a giant zoo. His boredom is slowly turning jackson from the chill place i found when i first came eight years ago to a playground for chicago and STL area gymrats. As we all know any So Ill climbing area has a great potential for overcrowding and the fact that dozens of easy routes under 5.10 are springing up all over the place doesnt help that fact."
"its not like some wackos going around and chopping routes."
You're wrong.
Jake83 wrote- "I'll keep it short and sweet. Maybe I did bring uo the subject in the wrong way but I wanted some oppinions from other climbers around the country rather than soill or indianna.anyways i think we should have a SICA meeting very soon since the last one that I recall was about four years ago in Mt.Vernon, unless I missed something. The thing that first got me fired up was the bolts I saw on easy slab 5.5-7 . I may not climb it anymore but that has been a lead/solo or a TR it simpliy didn't need to be bolted. The gear might be sketchy but thats part of the fun of climbing. I'm not trying to start a war just a little conversation. this is a chat forum not a name calling forum.peace out."
So then, who removed the bolts from that very same route a week or so ago? Will the person have the spine to step up to the plate? Frizzell would like his hangers back. Or, will the person remain a thief?
Jake83, your elitist attitude hardly begets "peace". Jackson Falls has had over 200 sport routes for years. Easy Slab being bolted is not out of character for the rest of the canyon. Your attitude, however, is. I'll grant you that no route NEEDS to be bolted. With the same logic, though, nor does anyone NEED to climb, play golf, etc.
Misty wrote: "So Ill isnt exactly the largest climbing area. A good amount of climbers call Jackson their home craig, these climbers are all around the state, many from St. Louis and Chicago. I dont mean to rip on Jackson, but its not the biggest climbing area. If some routes are changed or added of course people will notice. Just imagine if a route at Rifle or Penitente was rebolted or bolted with the first bolt close to the ground, there would not really be an issue like this has become."
I honestly don't know what matters about the size of Jackson Falls relative to anywhere else.
"the issue will become a needless soap opera."
Needless is the key word here... with regard to the original complaints. Responses to the compaints were in order. If that somehow equates to soap opera status, well... whatever.
"by the already bored climbing community which is desperate for something new to talk about."
Personally, I'm too busy to be bored. As for something new, this is not. The current complainers can count themselves as part of the cyclical, uninformed complainers of every so many years. This will happen again in another 5-8 years, I'm sure.
Andy, thanks.
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gymslackerclimber
Feb 24, 2005, 9:19 PM
Post #33 of 76
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mingleefu-- i ment to say that group and psycho therapy ARE tons of fun,,as in they are very fun, i wasnt even aware that a route name is 'tons of fun' and i aslo ment to say to the right of master marley, and wow i guess i am talking about 'rattler' where in the beging you start of striaght then you have to lean way left.. i think the crux is right after the first bolt.. I did go up the seam on yosemite slab,, ( but i used my hands).. hey thanks for the info.. I think we are going to go back down on the 5th.. weather permitting we are going to set up a highline over the pool next to the waterfall,, by the rope latter.. that spot is so beautiful we have to set up a line... thanks again -harlan
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justsendingits
Feb 24, 2005, 10:02 PM
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Sounds like some of u guys need to quit drinking HATERAID!!
This type of thread seems to resurface every few years, remember the one on the midwest climbing site?
Where is Indy when u need him? He could really make this thread some fun!!
The bottom line is a lot of us climbers that go down to So. Ill. are not even a blip on the radar screen as far as having a positive impact on So. Ill. and the climbing comm.
It is sooo easy to sit (hide) behind the computer and whine.
If u want to join a Jihad, complaining about rebolting Master Marley is a poor choice to make your stand!!!
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jds100
Feb 25, 2005, 4:48 AM
Post #35 of 76
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In reply to: remember the one on the midwest climbing site?
Rich,
that was fun. Good times!!!... Ah, well.
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justsendingits
Feb 25, 2005, 8:29 AM
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Yeah, that thread was fun, can u e- mail me a copy of it???
Thurmond and I just got back yesterday from another winter attempt on Mt.Hooker. (for real)
We tried to get Indy to go so we could have a bit(h to cook for us and preform various other tasks, but he cut his awesome beautiful hair and we could not locate him!!
I might head down to the falls this weekend and do Marley with adjustable Russian friction hooks and a liter of bacon greese. Hobbits live down there, so I can probably get a hip belay from one of them!!
Drive fast take chances!!!
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andy_lemon
Feb 25, 2005, 10:39 PM
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In reply to: Where is Indy when u need him? He could really make this thread some fun!!
I bet he is sneeking out to Draper's at night and climbing.
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euroford
Feb 25, 2005, 10:59 PM
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ya see, this is why bolting is bad. it ends up in three page stupid argumentative threads.
if it don't take pro, i ain't climbing it. have fun kids, but i just don't think the time, money, enviromental damage and controversy is worth it.
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justsendingits
Feb 25, 2005, 11:04 PM
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Got to give Indy credit if he is doing that!! Only for the high risk factor.
That's like A5 if Eric catches him.
he has more balls than brains!!
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jds100
Feb 26, 2005, 1:00 AM
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Rich,
I tried shooting you an email with the old threads attached, but it came back as invalid. My email address is listed here at RC.com, so email me, and I'll reply with the attachments.
Jeff
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ericulner
Feb 26, 2005, 6:57 AM
Post #41 of 76
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Jake83 wrote: “I wanted some oppinions from other climbers around the country rather than soill or indianna.”
I’m sure Gunks climbers want opinions from climbers in, say, Minnesota and Alabama. And Smith Rocks climbers would feel it’s really important to have input from climbers in Texas and Missouri. Get real.
Euroford wrote: “ya see, this is why bolting is bad. it ends up in three page stupid argumentative threads. if it don't take pro, i ain't climbing it. have fun kids, but i just don't think the time, money, enviromental damage and controversy is worth it.”
If Euroford were to climb routes with bolts in Southern Illinois, no one is going to send him a bill to pay for the time and money. Therefore, the “time, money” comment is really invalid, and kind of stupid.
Define “environmental damage” anyway.
In order to objectively assess cliff area environmental “damage” affected by climbers in Southern Illinois, one first needs to know just how much cliff area environment there is. Only then can one assign a numeric value to the amount of the resource that has actually been affected. Given that the number of linear miles of cliffs of 20 feet in height or taller in Southern Illinois is roughly 1,000 miles (based on an educated guess by a geology professor at SIU), the total sum of all established climbing routes- sport and trad- in Southern Illinois does not exceed 0.001% of the total resource. Euroford, your worries about the environment strike me as being hyper-emotionally misplaced and not objective at all.
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justsendingits
Feb 26, 2005, 8:06 AM
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I climbo on o less than 0.001% of the So. Ill. rocko, while drinkin 5% beero................
burp!!!!!!
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justsendingits
Feb 26, 2005, 8:07 AM
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It's 2:06 AM Do u know where your bolt kit is?
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euroford
Feb 26, 2005, 5:35 PM
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In reply to: If Euroford were to climb routes with bolts in Southern Illinois, no one is going to send him a bill to pay for the time and money. Therefore, the “time, money” comment is really invalid, and kind of stupid.
i'm not talking about MY money, i'm talking about YOUR money, or whatever person is placing bolts down there. really, why bother, its a total waste of your time and your money. why don't you save that bolt money and take a road trip to eldo or something.
In reply to: Define “environmental damage” anyway.
lets define this as: drilling holes in stuff!!!!
okay, i'm not saying 4 holes in the side of a crappy 20 foot crag in the middle of BFE is directly related to shutting down the north atlantic current, but you ABSOLUTLY CANNOT argue against the fact that you are doing nothing but modifying nature to suite YOUR purposes.
i'm sorry, i shouldn't be getting this thread off topic and i should just let you kids go play. but i thought it would be worth mentioning that this is a public forum that recieves allot of traffic,and there are definitly people reading through this thread thinking you guys are rediculous.
and really, nothing better than a "bolters are bitches" thread to go with your morning cofffee.
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justsendingits
Feb 26, 2005, 6:57 PM
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Euroford wrote-------"i'm not talking about MY money, i'm talking about YOUR money, or whatever person is placing bolts down there. really, why bother, its a total waste of your time and your money. why don't you save that bolt money and take a road trip to eldo or something."
Total Waste of time? Thanx for defining our experience for us.
Euro wrote----but you ABSOLUTLY CANNOT argue against the fact that you are doing nothing but modifying nature to suite YOUR purposes.
Euroford, maybe u should head to Eldo, start from the coast naked, no car, no shoes, no rope just your naked lily white ass. And walk all the way to Eldo and Solo the N.E.
That wayyou are not MODIFING nature to suite your own purposes.
By the way, how many trad routes have you developed down in So. Ill.? Or do you just wait for someone else to do an F.A. so you don't have to deal with the weeds,P.I., at the base and you don't have to clean the loose rock from the route or put in anchors?
You certainly don't have a problem rapping off buildings in Chicago as it says in your profile, how does that fit into your" don't modify nature philosophy"?
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healyje
Feb 28, 2005, 9:23 AM
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Folks, as Eric has said, Jeff Frizzell knows exactly what he's doing with a drill and he is no newcomer to S.I.
When we climbed in Jackson Falls while living in C'dale it was utterly wild, pristine, and untouched - a bolt hadn't been drilled and everything we touched was an [unrecorded, trad] FA done in a leave no trace style and I have never climbed at a lovelier spot. I last climbed Jackson Falls 12 years later, after having lived in Oregon for some years, and I was pretty appalled at the changes. From the parking scene, to the trail down, to the actual interior of the hollow, everything had been fairly trampled - and that was 15 years ago. It had essentially been turned into an outside climbing gym and to be honest I found the lines of chalk way more offensive than the bolts.
But as Eric wrote elsewhere "the damage is done" at Jackson Falls and it has to be considered an "acceptable loss/trade" in exchange for not developing numerous S.I. hollows that should (in a world where climbers have any self-respect at all) never see a drill, or chalk for that matter. Having knockdown arguments over another line getting squeezed in or retro-bolted at Jackson Falls is a little ridiculous when contrasting it's prior pristine state with the last two decades of development there. If you wanted to have a [way, way post-mortem] discussion or ethics debate I'd say having one around Top Roping vs. "the thrill of clipping" on one pitch lines would be more pertinent.
The ethic of the previous era in S.I. was "don't fix pro on anything under a rope length". That obviously changed in S.I. the '80s with the advent of sport climbing. I personally would have preferred that nothing more than TR anchors had gone into Jackson Falls, and those to protect trees, but I and others of like mind were long gone by that point and a new guard third/fourth generation had taken up residence making S.I. climbing their own just as we had done after the first generation departed.
But, even beaten up Jackson Falls is a stunningly beatiful place and you are all lucky to have it and the other S.I. climbing areas - enjoy what you have, while you are there to have it...
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organic
Feb 28, 2005, 2:10 PM
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Well on to a more pertinent discusion the knotted rope leading into the gully is definitely at the end of its life. Needs to be replaced ASAP. If no one else has any old rope I will buy some and put it up this weekend maybe.
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ericulner
Feb 28, 2005, 5:01 PM
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In reply to: Folks, as Eric has said, Jeff Frizzell knows exactly what he's doing with a drill and he is no newcomer to S.I. The ethic of the previous era in S.I. was "don't fix pro on anything under a rope length". That obviously changed in S.I. the '80s with the advent of sport climbing. I personally would have preferred that nothing more than TR anchors had gone into Jackson Falls, and those to protect trees, but I and others of like mind were long gone by that point and a new guard third/fourth generation had taken up residence making S.I. climbing their own just as we had done after the first generation departed. But, even beaten up Jackson Falls is a stunningly beatiful place and you are all lucky to have it and the other S.I. climbing areas - enjoy what you have, while you are there to have it...
Although I covered these points I'll make here quite well in the history section of my new guidebook, I'll make short mention here as well. When we first began using bolts at Jackson Falls in 1986, we simply went with the established and very well accepted ethic that a bolt could be used to protect a blank spot on a route, so as to make it reasonably leadable. Check "Makanda Layback" at Giant City (bolt placed by Craig Barnes circa 1970). "Unfinished Symphony" at Cedar Bluff (circa 1984). Numerous fixed pins and a smattering of bolts here and there at Giant City, Cove Hollow, Little Grand Canyon, and other areas (most of them pre-1975).
In 1986 at Jackson Falls, we were not thinking about "sport climbing". It was not until later around 1987 or so that we even noticed the term in a magazine. All we wanted to do was lead routes. And, since we (Jim Thurmond, Alan Carrier, and myself) were locals, as in people who grew up in this area and remain here, unlike the majority of the past climbers who came for college and left, we felt very comfortable to continue with the precedence set and use bolts to protect blank spots. Whether or not routes were partially trad protectable or totally void of trad protectability was irrelevant. Over the ensuing years, some of the very (actually) few people who are opening routes here made another step regarding bolting ethics and decided to not worry about a route being mixed- meaning, if a route has 5 bolts and one slot that could take a nut, they'd simplify things and make it a 6 bolt route. This is not to say that bolting cracks is a norm. It's not. There exists one bolted crack and it's an overhung 5.12. Now, do I personally agree with this last step in bolting ethics? No, I don't. I typically will leave sport routes sport, mixed routes mixed, and trad routes trad. The making of a mixed route sport isn't worth having a bolt war over. I'm happy to have Jackson Falls left as an area where the less than 6 of us who have opened 10 routes or more each can get along, living and letting live.
Bolts have not beat up Jackson Falls. Uncontrolled equestrian use has.
As for previous generations of climbers utilizing Jackson Falls, yes, perhaps a few of the cracks, but there does come a point when, unless you do some cleaning, you'll not find success on an ascent. Most of the 5.10 and above trad routes we did (and these were the first routes we sought), had enough friable rock on them to leave one to believe no human had passed before.
Cleaning rock, by the way, is pretty much a necessity on 5.10 and above east of the Mississippi.
Ultimately, what the newest generation of climbers does not realize is that we didn't just open up a magazine one day, notice sport climbing, and decide to start sport climbing. It was process over a period of a few years. Likewise, someone like Joe, who was here earlier and then return years later would miss out on the fact that there was a process over time.
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justsendingits
Feb 28, 2005, 7:52 PM
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In reply to: Well on to a more pertinent discusion the knotted rope leading into the gully is definitely at the end of its life. Needs to be replaced ASAP. If no one else has any old rope I will buy some and put it up this weekend maybe.
I have loads of rope you can use!!
I am in St. Louis now, but I should be in Chicago by tomorrow.
Call me if any of you want rope, I have lots of 10 and 11 mill. static.
630-926-2805
Rich
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