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madflash
Apr 21, 2006, 5:04 PM
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Well, ladies and gentlemen. I think that it is time to start collecting some kind of consensus on a couple of very important issues in the Arkansas climbing community. Namely about ethics, access, and of course new routing.
As just about everyone in the world knows now, Arkansas has some good climbing (Thanks a bunch Rock & Ice!). The cat is out of the bag. This isn't really new news though. The news of good stone has slowly been leaking over the past couple of years. Of course, magazine coverage and dosage videos haven't exactly been doing a lot of good keeping our secrets. Still the word is out. And finally locals, including myself, have begun to notice the effects. Horseshoe Canyon Ranch...I was there the other weekend and it was packed, I mean crowded, I mean I couldn't find a parking spot. Its to be expected they tell me. Almost every car in the lot was from Missouri or Oklahoma. That's to be expected too. So I go to Sam's Throne last weekend and what do I find...its packed, I mean crowded, I mean...wait there's a parking spot, better grab it quick before another damn Missouri climber gets it!
Yep that's what I'm talking about. Can anyone say access issue? Here it comes the moment we've all been waiting for...Crowds.
Well, that's really only the beginning. Now that Horseshoe Canyon is getting swamped, the overflow is going to start effecting all of the other crags in the state...namely Sam's Throne. This is really where the issues start to pile up. Sam's Throne ain't no Horseshoe Canyon. It has good rock I mean...but there is this little pesky unwritten rule there concerning something about ethics. Yeah what's that you may wonder. Well at Sam's ...I'm not exactly sure. There was something written about not bolting, but wait there's lots of bolts all over Sam's. Okay something else written about the art of placing gear...blah, blah...but wait isn't that an obvious crack with a couple of bolts on it. Then of course there is a cool looking face or two which is...BOM, BOM, BOM!!!... a top rope only route. What the hell is top roping. Does anyone actually do that crap. I mean okay little kids and grandmas aside does anyone actually do that crap. Last time I checked, Rock and Ice and Climbing aren't accepting top rope ascents in the Hot Flashes section. Oh yeah, Realization (5.15a or some shit) yeah I top roped that years ago in my hiking boots. I think not. Okay I'm getting a little off point. Back to Sam's. Then there is the occasional "sport route" that has 6 bolts and anchors and of course the one, single tricky red tricam placement or slung chicken head that is waiting to blow and send you sailing toward the ground at 32 feet/sec/sec. Yeah not exactly clip and go huh? So there is THE ETHIC at Sam's Throne...some weird conglomerate of different ways to F*ck up good climbing, basically. You all can see where I'm going with this one. Oh and those bomber, trust them with your life cause you know that they work, bolts out there....They are basically shit. That's right, you might as well clip into an old piece of chewing gum, cause that's just as likely to catch your fall. Most of the hardware at Sam's Throne is junky old 3/8'' X 2and3/4'' wedge bolt hardware store mank that has been out rusting for oh...10+ years now. Yeah these aren't the bomber 1/2'' X 3and3/4'' Rawl expansion bolts you have grown to love and trust at Horseshoe. Those wedges aren't even made for climbing. They aren't rated to hold falls or anything. NOw maybe in some bomber sierra granite they might hold up, but this is chossy Arkansas sandstone we are talking about here. I don't want to sound like a complete ass. I greatly appreciate the climbers that came before me. They did some balls-to-the-walls stuff back when I was itching my daddy's pants, I know you don't have to remind me. But what passed for acceptable back then is starting to make itself a problem nowadays in 2006. Climbing is a lot different now. It isn't a couple of good ole boys stomping through the woods climbing a rock or two anymore. We are talking about hundreds of thousands of weekend warriors in the community now. Its gotten big whether you want to admit it or not.
So what does this have to do with anything you might ask. Well, not a lot really, except for this... As more and more climbers start climbing at these places, like Sam's, where there is some "ethic", or lack there of in my opinion, more problems will arise. Specifically someone, and it ain't gonna be me, is going to rip on one of those "bolts" and take the big one. That's right, complete taco. And then where does your access go when the forest service finds out that climbing isn't safe at Sam's and that the bolts are mank. The answer...It goes away. I know this is a little doomsday sounding but we will probably run into this scenario sooner or later. And of course this doesn't even address another issue. What about putting up new routes at Sam's. I was recently told that there is a bolting ban on at Sam's. Of course that came from someone from Oklahoma, which last time I checked ain't Arkansas. Sorry, I had to vent a little.
So what are we going to do? Now that is the real question. What are we going to do. Anyone? Anyone at all with a plan? You say, well Madflash, what should we do since you are the all-knowing one. Shit, I don't have those answers. The only thing I can think is that we need some kind of community based forum to discuss these issues. Most everyone else in the climbing community round these parts is used to this keep-to-yourself mentality. That's not going to cut it anymore.
So this thread on some website out there is where I am going to start. I know its not exactly proactive but it needs to get down. Think about some of these issues that I have discussed above and think about them good. Then type back with your own two cents and let your voice be heard. What is to become of climbing in Arkansas?
p.s. - sorry for the length and the spray. Cheers.
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beny
Apr 21, 2006, 5:17 PM
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madflash- when you vent, you really vent. you may be right on one thing- ethics need to be revisited. it seems the attitude of hcr is creeping its way across the county to our beloved (semi) trad stronghold. recently some missouri boys from near springfield bolted a line on chickenhead wall. thankfully, it has been removed. but folks might need to realize that the hcr standard is not the arkansas standard.
just my opinion. by the way, its been awhile. me and mrs will be visiting your woods next weekend. be nice to shoot the bull around the fire with you.
ben
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madflash
Apr 21, 2006, 5:30 PM
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That's true that the HCR standard isn't the standard everywhere. I'm not advocating grid bolting. That would be a piss poor answer for our problems. But the appealing thing about HCR is the use of good hardware and safe anchors. If there is going to be a bolt, it might as well be bomber. I am merely advocated the use of good hardware. I think Sam's is in need of a good makeover. I intend to contact American Safe Climbing Association, Anchor Replacement Initiative, Southeastern Climbers Coalition, and others in an effort to establish some sort of commitee to address these issues. (Committees, yeah I know). I would be real pissed if I took the big one while hanging on some old mank anchors at Sam's. Wouldn't you? If you want to see what I mean about mank bolts, check out noshoesnoshirt 's profile and look through his pictures. There is an example of a 3/8'' five piece we pulled out of Flying Elvis at Cave Creek. Remember this is a five piece expansion bolt, far more bomber than the wedges used extensively at the Throne. If the expansion bolt is that mank think about all of the other bolts there!
Has anyone else been to Sam's lately...The Sam's Plan has taken serious effect. This is as good a time as any to start the business.
Yeah beny, chances are I will be there battling bugs, heat, and bolt choppers. Hope to see you there, do some good pulling... out of the ole beer bottle that is.
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kovacs69
Apr 21, 2006, 6:27 PM
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I got an idea...why not start the Arkansas Climbers Coalition of the Arkansas Mountaineers or something? Get people togerther, decide what you want , take a vote and then present it to the forest service, private landowner, state park committee or whoever owns the land where you want to climb. It would have been nice to have a committee there to keep that damn hotel off the top of Mt. Magazine or at least let people know what was going on. By the time I found out about it the damn thing was almost done. There are many places where we could climb in Arkansas but instead of having a pow wow and deciding what we want as a group everyone has to go solo and screw it up for all of us.
A good example of this is Red Rock Point out there in your neck of the woods. I was up there last year and finally got to talk to a land owner. After sitting and talking for about 1/2 hour and explaining what I wanted to do he gave me permission to cross his land, park there and even camp. He also stated that he would be more willing to let people do this if we (the climbing community) would just sit down with him and discuss it but he was tired of everyone sneaking across his land to climb the rock. By the way, him and his wife are really nice people they just want some cooperation.
In the case of Sams Throne I think it would be nice to have so new routes bolted but I would like the trad lines left alone. It would be nice to have new rap anchors installed where they are easy to access but people won't rap down a good climb.
If there was a coalition then people could suggest what climbs would be good to bolt and what should be left to trad. Then when the coalition had a consensus they could write up a proposal and present it to the forest service for consideration. Also the coalition could get its members involved in a letter writing / e-mail capaign to support or decry any decission made by the forrest service.
If anyone get this together I would be willing to anty up some dollars to purchase some bolts and anchors for Sams Throne or any other place the coalition decides it is going to use them.
Just because I live in Dallas doesn't mean I wouldn't support climbing in Arkansas. Hell I am a member of the Caroline Climbers Coalition and I have never even been climbing in the Carolinas.
I have been climbing in Arkansas for approx 10 years now and just love that sandstone. I would do almost anything to protect it. I would drive all the way there for a meeting but that would use up alot of the bolt and anchor money.
Sorry if I ranted too much. Just my opinion.
JB
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madflash
Apr 21, 2006, 6:42 PM
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No, that's good. the tragedy at Magazine will probably happen at other crags as well, unless WE do something about it. Also, Red Rock Point, what an amazing crag that has always had some sketchy access. An organized climbing community could address those types of issues and 100 voices is a lot harder to dismiss than one or two. Its good to know that climbers from other states that come to Arkansas on a regular basis would have a voice. Hell on any given weekend there are three times more climbers from Missouri in Arkansas than there are Arkansas climbers total...probably...I could be wrong but I never hear from more than the same 10 Arkie climbers.
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cedk
Apr 21, 2006, 7:56 PM
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The hotel at Mag. isn't a new thing. it's a rebuild of an old hotel that was there previously and was burnt down. I don't think you can really call it a "tragedy" when the state wants to make a state resource available to other user groups.
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madflash
Apr 21, 2006, 8:02 PM
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Call it what you will, tragedy or not. I remember waking up there and seeing a beautiful view from a majestic spot. Now I go there and try not to look at all because the hotel is all I can see. I am sure that those other groups that go there and "use" Mt. Magazine would have it no other way. And there's a lot more of them than me.
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j_ung
Apr 21, 2006, 8:08 PM
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Speaking as a board member for another local advocacy organization, I highly recommend you get the ball rolling on forming your own. You're right, Arkansas climbers can't afford to keep a business-as-usual mentality.
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therealbovine
Apr 21, 2006, 8:17 PM
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Until the recent bolting of "chicken head wall", I felt o.k. with what has been going on "ethics" wise at the Sams Throne areas. I beleive that one reason that things had not gotten too out of control was simply the fact that new routes had typically been established by the same half dozen climbers for the past two decades.
With the new HCR ideals floating around plus a large number of newbie climbers taking up the 'sport', I beleive it is time to do a better job reminding the community that ethcis are deeply rooted in our climbing history and play a huge role in its future. Climbers have always done the best they could to "self police"; as opposed to being watched over by a governing body, which all too often leads to rules and regulations that do not appeal to climbing, climbers and its vast history.
We do not want to have rules, we do not want to be defined by regulatory agencies. I beleive that this gets right down to the escense of why we climb. Climbing is such a freedom, one that we cannot have in "normal" societal circles in our 9-5 daily lives. Is it possible to, by word of mouth, as it has been done for decades, bring back the ethics that climbers have lived and breathed by for so long? Is it possible for newer climbers to understand and feel strongly about the beleif in these ethics? I beleive it is possible.
As far as the comment on manky, crap bolts at Sams; Sure, bolts get old. I would not go so far as to say that they are all crap. I would also not go so far as to say that they are any good either. A majority of the bolts at Sams were placed long before companies like Fixe were making 'climbing specific' bolts. HCR does not make me feel any better about the safety of bolts in a simular type of rock. Different bolt types work better in diferent scenarios. You might need three different bolt types on a said route to get the job done right. The rock varies so much there. Some rock might be brown, sandy while five feet away you will have bullet hard grey rock. I beleive experience or lack-there-of has a lot to do with the bolting issues at Sams.
I'm headed to Sams right now as a matter of fact. I'll be back on Monday with a full report...
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noshoesnoshirt
Apr 21, 2006, 8:21 PM
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In reply to: The hotel at Mag. isn't a new thing. it's a rebuild of an old hotel that was there previously and was burnt down. I don't think you can really call it a "tragedy" when the state wants to make a state resource available to other user groups.
You're right; "tragedy" isn't the word you're looking for. I think"travesty" is a much better description.
http://www.danark.com/images/lodgeext12.JPG
It looks like a goddamn subdivision up there now. How come it wasn't available to the other "user groups" before? No room service? No mints on their pillows?
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kovacs69
Apr 21, 2006, 8:24 PM
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I will agree that there used to be a hotel and visitors center up there but it was not even close in size to the new one there now. My question is why did they have to build it right on top of and overlooking the edge of the cliff. They rebuilt the visitors center down the road why not the hotel also and why soooo big? Hell now I have to walk through the lobby of the damn hotel to get to the trail down or I have to walk a mile to go around. Next thing you know the visitor of the hotel will start complaining when they see me rapping off the cliff. I can hear it now...Sir this is hotel property you can't be doing that here. Then they will say I can't park in the hotel parking lot.
I am just saying they could have built the hotel on the other side of the road or down by the visitors center. They could have also built a hotel the fit in a little better with the environment. Made it less noticeable.
Just because it used to be that way doesn't mean it was good that way.
JB
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cedk
Apr 21, 2006, 8:24 PM
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Crowds come and go depending on things like weather forecasts, holiday weekends, college football schedules and publication of guide books and magazine articles.
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noshoesnoshirt
Apr 21, 2006, 8:28 PM
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...or visitors could go to Petit Jean. Or Mt. Nebo. Or Mt. Queen Wilhelmena. All mountaintop lodges within one hour of Magazine.
Beaurocrats just feel a need to pave everything.
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leinosaur
Apr 21, 2006, 8:29 PM
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Hey madflash -
Thanks for the free-form rant! You captured the complexity of the issue quite nicely.
Just the scenario you seem to fear, i.e. losing access due to crowds and lax ethics, nearly took place in Oklahoma's Wichita Mountains. It wasn't overall numbers, there, so much as careless attitudes toward the Feds who ran the place that nearly closed all that great granite to climbers, forever.
Luckily, a very savvy and attentive Marion Hutchinson, among many others, managed to organize a Coalition and negotiate a self-governing option that would preserve not only access but also more than a kernel of the original bold ethic. I'm not aware of ANY bolted cracks in the Wichitas, if you see what I mean.
This was all 10 years ago or so, and folk have begun to take things for granite, but the legacy remains. The "library" section of wichitamountains.org contains a lot of good reading if you're interested in how others acted effectively, once their initial rants were concluded.
Note especially the
MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING
between
Department of Interior
U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service
Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge
and
Wichita Mountains Climbers Coalition
http://wichitamountains.org/mou.html
Amazingly enough, the Coalition also managed to save (via purchase) the other major granite crag in OK, i.e. Baldy Peak. All this was before my time but many of us newer climbers do our best to appreciate the efforts of those who came before. Their runouts, if nothing else, make 'em damn hard to forget!
Another note on Okies, this time related to Arkansas directly:
On my one trip to Sam's Throne, I was privileged to meet one of the old-school hardmen from Oklahoma.
He asked about our plans, and recommended a wall or two that would be good for sunny moderates. As for him, though, he wasn't climbing. At the time, I thought it was crazy but I've come to appreciate his purpose for being out there, some 5 hours' drive from his hometown:
REPLACING BOLTS!
Not putting up new routes, or merely chopping old mank, but actually doing the expensive, dirty and probably lonely work, at an out-of-state crag.
Who funded the project, I don't know, but it opened my eyes to a whole other aspect of ethics which had never occurred to me in my noobitude.
So I guess the message is, bitch about 'em if you must, but don't go thinking all foreigners are more problem than solution.
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kovacs69
Apr 21, 2006, 8:40 PM
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One more thing about that hotel on Magazine.
Why did they make it so expensive I can't stay there?
Is it that way because they know in doing so that most climbers can't afford it?
BTW...I would be more that happy to drive the 7 to 8 hours to help out with anything that needs to be done. Let me know when and where.
JB
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cedk
Apr 21, 2006, 8:54 PM
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I will concede that I prefered it when it was just climbers, hikers, photographers and hang gliders atop the mountain, but your arguments against it are pretty weak considering the history of the area.
Besides which, you can't see it from the climbing area, and if you find it too exhausting to hike what, maybe 2 or 300 meters around it, then you're probably not cut out for even the little waterfall walkdown, let alone any of the climbs.
Don't lament the fact that you had no organization to protest the construction of that lodge because nothing said so far against it would have garnered anything more than laughter from the state in its decision to put it up.
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crankmarklar
Apr 21, 2006, 9:19 PM
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I was at Sams recently and noticed a line of new bolts on an existing route Coup de Grace. This mentality has to stop. Not all routes even the ones that do not get done much should be bolted to allow for more traffic which is a lame excuse to bolt anything. If you can't lead it in the style that it was established do it when you have the skill to. A 5.10 lead on trad gear whether you're slinging chicken heads or placing nuts is all part of the climbing game. Sport routes have their place but so do the established trad and serious ones.
It doesn't matter where a climber is from Madflash lots of us from Oklahoma have been climbing at Sams for some 20+ years and we have been and still are just as passionate about the area as someone who has been climbing there for a few years.
Replacing bolts is a must I agree. I have been doing so for many years and still do it, it's our responsibility.
The bolts on Elvis were put in some 12-13 years ago (I installed them) and someone replaced them which was good I appreciate that but hey use some enviro hangers and fill in the old bolt holes it looks much better.
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beny
Apr 22, 2006, 2:30 AM
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i agree completely with crankmarklar. retrobolting trad lines is unacceptable, regardless of reason. bolting for the masses is not something that needs to happen at sams. hcr's private property is a great place for that ethic.
stark, the bolt-chopper you refer to is me. i removed the bolts on chicken head wall because the route has been climbed as a trad line for more years than i've been alive, the route is extremely safe, and bolts are not necessary for protection. i did it in broad daylight, and warned the bolters i would do it if they didn't remove them themselves.
you might ask, why did someone who lives 4 hours from sams remove bolts? because the locals that live 30 mins away let the bolts sit there for 4 months. arkies complain that out-of-state climbers are the most common climbers in the area. but they are also the most prominent climbers in doing fa's, maintaining fixed gear, encouraging maintenance of ethics, etc. if i had seen the bolts on coup de grace, i would have removed those as well. i led that on gear years ago, and my neighbor, jim karpowicz, did the fa on gear back before i was born.
why water the place down? natural and mixed climbing is the gold standard for the area. its a great way to go. we have plenty of well-bolted sport lines down the road at hcr. why make sams the same thing? isn't variety the spice of life?
personally, i think the arkie crowd needs to get more informed about whats been done and what's going on in their backyard. most arkie climbers i've been out with don't even know what routes have been done at sams. i remember a time last summer when a group of arkie guys was climbing coup de etat. i climbed wilford's pumpy love nearby and the group had no idea it was even an established line, simply because it was a face route protected with natural gear. i also remember when a group of arkie guys bolted wilford's titanic simply because they hadn't noticed in the guide that it had already been done. the vast majority of sams potential new face routes could be done entirely on gear (even teh hard 5.12 ones), or with a single bolt. why not continue that tradition instead of just filling in the face routes with bolted lines?
if it takes an organization to get things together, i'm all for it. in the past, the peeps dragging their heels has been the arkie crowd. sounds like that is changing, and for the better. i'm sure eric forney and tony mayse would love to have some of the locals pitching in to help replace hardware. i doubt they have a money tree growing in the backyard, and last i checked, new hardware ain't on the cheap.
it sure would be easy to just let sams go by the wayside- there's a lot of other rock in arkie. but the area is steeped in tradition and excellent routes, regardless of style. i support working together to maintain a common ethic so we can manage ourselves instead of being managed by the gov't.
ben williams, columbia, mo
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crankmarklar
Apr 22, 2006, 2:33 AM
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In reply to: So I go to Sam's Throne last weekend and what do I find...its packed, I mean crowded, I mean...wait there's a parking spot, better grab it quick before another damn Missouri climber gets it! Yep that's what I'm talking about. Can anyone say access issue? Here it comes the moment we've all been waiting for...Crowds..
I climbed at Sam's all Winter and no crowds only a few climbers. It’s Spring time and more climbers are coming to the crags. The past few weekends at Sam's have been no different than any other weekend for the last 16 years that I have been climbing there. Your comment in my opinion is a bit stretched.
In reply to: This is really where the issues start to pile up. Sam's Throne ain't no Horseshoe Canyon. It has good rock I mean...but there is this little pesky unwritten rule there concerning something about ethics. Yeah what's that you may wonder. Well at Sam's ...I'm not exactly sure. There was something written about not bolting, but wait there's lots of bolts all over Sam's. Okay something else written about the art of placing gear...blah, blah...but wait isn't that an obvious crack with a couple of bolts on it. Then of course there is a cool looking face or two which is...BOM, BOM, BOM!!!... a top rope only route. What the hell is top roping. Does anyone actually do that crap. I mean okay little kids and grandmas aside does anyone actually do that crap.
I’m glad Sam's is no HCR and hope it doesn’t ever get to that point.
The ethics at Sam's has been something all of us have taken to heart. Having respect for the area is and should be our main concern. The trad lines will remain trad. There are sport lines but it is by no means a sport area that’s why Cave Creek came into the picture in the early 90’s. Comments like "pesky unwritten rule" show a lack of respect for what has been something we have worked very hard in preserving, namely keeping Sam's mainly a trad area. Yes, there are bolts at Sam's but a lot? I say not compared to the amount of rock in the area. Yes people still top rope look around, didn’t you say you just climbed at HCR? Haven't you ever worked at route? Isn’t that top roping?
In reply to: Most of the hardware at Sam's Throne is junky old 3/8'' X 2and3/4'' wedge bolt hardware store mank that has been out rusting for oh...10+ years now. Yeah these aren't the bomber 1/2'' X 3and3/4'' Rawl expansion bolts you have grown to love and trust at Horseshoe. Those wedges aren't even made for climbing. They aren't rated to hold falls or anything.
We have taken falls on 3/8 bolts at Sam's, Cave Creek, and Valley of the Blind for many years. Surprisingly enough they held the falls. Junk? I think not, yes some are in fact old and in need of being replaced as with any old bolts in any climbing area. Climbing specific bolts were not available back when a lot of these routes were established.
In reply to: But what passed for acceptable back then is starting to make itself a problem nowadays in 2006. Climbing is a lot different now. It isn't a couple of good ole boys stomping through the woods climbing a rock or two anymore. We are talking about hundreds of thousands of weekend warriors in the community now. Its gotten big whether you want to admit it or not.
A problem in 2006? Climbing is a lot different now? Climbing no different now then it was some 16 years ago. There is still sport climbing and climbers are still trying to balance the issues of bolting in the climbing areas. At the Sam's Throne Rendezvous in 1991 we had some 300 climbers attend and that has been the most climbers at Sam's since at any one given weekend. I doubt that there are hundreds of thousands of weekend warriors in the community if so they aren’t getting out much.
In reply to: Specifically someone, and it ain't gonna be me, is going to rip on one of those "bolts" and take the big one. That's right, complete taco. And then where does your access go when the forest service finds out that climbing isn't safe at Sam's and that the bolts are mank. The answer...It goes away.
Climbing is dangerous whether you have just clipped into a brand spanking new bolt or have gear every few feet things can go wrong. An inattentive belayer, back clipping, or a host of other things that could happen it’s a risky sport.
Have you seen the memorials around the base of the Throne? Unfortunately there have been deaths at Sam's and we are all saddened by it, but the Forest Service is not shutting any thing down any time soon on the contrary check out the 'Sam's Plan'.
We can all have fun and climb and enjoy but we need to give some respect to the climbing areas that have been here way before us and will be here long after we are gone.
~Peace
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weightlesserik
Apr 22, 2006, 4:57 AM
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[quote="madflash"]...Last time I checked, Rock and Ice and Climbing aren't accepting top rope ascents in the Hot Flashes section...
First of all, who are we climbing for here? I believe that if we are climbing to get our names in a magazine, we should reevaluate our motives. Otherwise, climbing can get both dangerous (to us) and careless (towards our environment, the rock).
Second, sport climbing isn't the only way to fame, if that's the route someone would want to take. I would argue that if Climbing or R&I heard of a TR 5.14+ or 5.15 ascent at Sam's, they would probably investigate.
Also, trad standards have been rising along with sport standards. Consider the recent ascent of the possible E11, the complete Requiem, across the pond. Even barring scarefests like that, Didier Berthod was awarded Climbing's golden piton this year for a 5.13+, Learning to Fly. Surely we have some natural lines that may come close to 5.13.
All things have their place. Horseshoe seems to have become the place for bolts to rule, especially with climbs such as the Prophet, 5.14a. Sam's is a great destination for trad and should remain as such. The problem is the community. First, the climbing community needs to come to some sort of agreement, before the government becomes involved. Who's heard of Hueco Tanks? If the majority tends to view Sam's as mostly a trad place, then we need to spread the word, letting others know that bolting existing lines is completely unacceptable.
After all, the bolters of Coup de Grace and the Chickenhead wall may not have known any better.
Erik P
KC
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republiclimber
Apr 22, 2006, 9:16 AM
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Registered: Dec 16, 2004
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i remember going to a comp at HCR two years ago and there being maybe 25 of us.....ah the good ol' pre-dosage 3/witness the fitness days.
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fracture
Apr 22, 2006, 2:31 PM
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Registered: Jun 13, 2003
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In reply to: Last time I checked, Rock and Ice and Climbing aren't accepting top rope ascents in the Hot Flashes section.
No comment on the rest of your rant, but I have seen several half to mostly toproped ascents in Hot Flashes type things. (Rouhling's Mandallaz Drive, several ascents of The Fly, Nichole's Bain de Sang, Beth Rodden on the Nose, etc.)
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jamaica
Apr 22, 2006, 4:46 PM
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Registered: Jul 22, 2004
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hells yeah on the idea of a coalition!
secondly, (I know you guys know this) there is a lot more climbing in Ar. than HCR and sams, not so say we shouldn't go there, but if you want some peace and quiet, it can be found rather easily
lastly, there is a lot more to HCR than the North 40, so if you want to climb at HCR with some peace and quiet, then it too can be found rather easily
Jamaica 8^)
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noshoesnoshirt
Apr 22, 2006, 8:27 PM
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In reply to: secondly, (I know you guys know this) there is a lot more climbing in Ar. Jamaica 8^)
Nope. Nothing else to see here. Please move along.
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shanz
Apr 22, 2006, 9:36 PM
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Registered: May 18, 2004
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Long post sucks that ethics are thrown out the window for ((A)SPORT) and i hear climbers all the time say they do it for the freedom... well lets get to the reality of the situation..
ONE PERSON'S FREEDOM STOPS WHERE ANOTHER PERSONS STARTS!!!
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