|
Toast_in_the_Machine
Mar 10, 2009, 4:54 PM
Post #401 of 438
(4918 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 5208
|
Sorry I missed the question. I thought the core question was "is randomness a result of a hidden determinism that is unknown?"
To which I answered back that harder climbing iin motherhood s indeed possible.
If that doesn't answer the randomness question, then only a PTFTW will.
|
|
|
|
|
puerto
Mar 10, 2009, 8:28 PM
Post #402 of 438
(4902 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 229
|
Lay off the drugs son.
|
|
|
|
|
caliclimbergrl
Mar 10, 2009, 10:10 PM
Post #403 of 438
(4891 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 19, 2008
Posts: 354
|
Edited to try to keep things civil in The Ladies Room:
You unequivocally state that Einstein is wrong. Not that you disagree with him, but that he's wrong. Who the hell do you think you are?
I happen to believe very strongly in determinism. And I do realize that determinism cannot be proved scientifically -- because NOTHING can be proved scientifically. But you can find evidence for something. And, you can easily disprove something. It's very easy to find evidence for determinism and very easy to disprove the idea that everything is random. Any scientific experiment does that!! Manipulate an independent variable, take every precaution to make sure that independent variable is isolated as much as possible and then measure a dependent variable. If the dependent variable changes reliably when you do this, you have found evidence for determinism. If the chaos theory were correct, it is would be so unlikely that you would get these predictable reliable results, it might as well be impossible.
Determinism is an assumption that every scientific field makes. It is necessary for experiments to have any validity. If everything was random, scientific research would never find any meaningful results. And we've discovered all kinds of things using the scientific method. There is plenty of evidence for determinism. And relatively little for chaos theory. In fact, the more we learn about the universe, the less random it appears. It's true that there are usually many causes and they are difficult to isolate. But just because you can't figure something out doesn't mean it's all random and unknowable.
"When the number of factors coming into play in a phenomenological complex is too large scientific method in most cases fails. One need only think of the weather, in which case the prediction even for a few days ahead is impossible. Nevertheless, no one doubts that we are confronted with a causal connection whose causal components are in the main known to us. Occurrences in this domain are beyond the reach of exact prediction because of the variety of factors in operation, not because of any lack of order in nature.”
--Albert Einstein
(This post was edited by caliclimbergrl on Mar 10, 2009, 10:30 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
desertwanderer81
Mar 10, 2009, 11:15 PM
Post #404 of 438
(4876 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 5, 2007
Posts: 2272
|
Well said Julia.
|
|
|
|
|
Toast_in_the_Machine
Mar 11, 2009, 1:55 AM
Post #405 of 438
(4866 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 5208
|
I think you both misunderstand me and at the same time, lead towards the point I am so ineloquently trying to make. Allow me one more bite of the cat (N.B. joke there for you).
I never said that causality, and by extension, the scientific method does not exist. Quite the opposite, it is a key factor in my understanding of the world. However, as we deal with people, one must understand the limitations of such thinking. To quote “Manipulate an independent variable, take every precaution to make sure that independent variable is isolated as much as possible and then measure a dependent variable.”
How do we do that with societies? What independent variable do we remove? With archeology, what is our “control”? What do we isolate with psychology? How do we “test” environmental policy? We can test in small bits, but for many things, we can’t repeat the test. If you want to be the perfect climbing parent, what experiments do you perform? What independent variables are removed? If we can’t remove test history, how do we study it? Statistics, which lead to probability, not causality.
This does not mean that all is random, or that there are not “causes”. It is an acceptance that because time is asymmetrical, we learn things by interpreting them, not by repeating them.
And, [caliclimbergl], thanks for cleaning up the comment at the beginning. I will, however, go back to one of your comments you edited out. Yes, I like clever word phrases. I’d like to share my favorite with you:
“Neotny indicates ontology”
Love that one.
You don’t change the rock, you change for the rock. You don’t change your children, you change for your children.
|
|
|
|
|
rockie
Mar 11, 2009, 4:40 AM
Post #406 of 438
(4850 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 18, 2007
Posts: 1130
|
desertwanderer81 wrote: rockie wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: granite_grrl wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: When was I accused of being Spock? Heh, Spock was my hero growing up.....this really disturbed my parents when I told them...heh. I am an engineer.....I typically believe that the entire universe can be expressed in one giant differential equation....we just haven't gotten to that point yet so we try to write our equations for simple situations in the mean time ;) Anyhow, my point was that there are bio-chemical differences between men and women but to let them control you to an ends which you don't want is just stupid. And let me guess, you just graduated engineering and you still think that engineers are some of the most special and smart people out there. But below is the truth...... ....The majority of engineers are socially stupid. Good at book smarts, but don't always know what's going on in the real world. You seem to fit that to a tee. Nope, been an engineer for almost 5 years now. And engineering is exactly about knowing what is going on in the real world..... However I would go to the point of saying that new-engineering graduates know very little about said world. The more experienced I get, the more I learn I don't actually know ;) I like your attitude desertwanderer81, quite right too  Ya know, at 18 I was the smartest person on this planet! How is it at 27 I know so much less?! By the age of 50, I figure I'll just be laying in my own stupor all day ;- )[/;)]
Funny that, it seems to ring a bell.. I think most of us thought we knew it all at that age, early on because hey! we are adults now (age 18) is when first fully recognized as one as such.
Then yes you grow up older and wiser and realize, actually you don't know so much and are always learning.
I've got top respect for the majority of older adults, you learn a lot from them, they really are knowledgeable, and you do learn from them for sure. Older and wiser, alot of truth to that one.
|
|
|
|
|
rockie
Mar 11, 2009, 4:43 AM
Post #407 of 438
(4849 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 18, 2007
Posts: 1130
|
matterunomama wrote: staci wrote: wow..Just to set the record strait . I did not have my 13 year old son babysit 4 young children. That would not be fair to anyone. 13 is a little young, but depending on the child and situation not out of the question. I grew up in a family of 5 and I babysat my 3 younger regularly since I was 12. Babysat for neighbors and friends from 13. Started dating at 14.5 and soon the neighborhood lost a great sitter!  There is also the option of bringing an early teen 'mothers's helper' to the crag/beach/mountain with you so you can climb/surf/sail/ski unemcumbered and still be there to semi-supervise.
Hmmm I remember babysitting myself at around aged 10, and it being halloween. Here is a funny story..
My parents had already left for a halloween party, and a short while later someone appeared at the back door, knocked on the window which was right by the lounge where I was sat watching tv, and I had the fright of my life, I still remember yelling out in fright.
It was my Dad's friend who came to see if he'd missed them for the party, and he was all dressed up very spooky, rubber face mask and the hair, the works.. very good actually, and it worked, it scared the sh*t out of me.
|
|
|
|
|
rockie
Mar 11, 2009, 5:00 AM
Post #408 of 438
(4845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 18, 2007
Posts: 1130
|
desertwanderer81 wrote: iamthewallress wrote: granite_grrl wrote: ....The majority of engineers are socially stupid. Good at book smarts, but don't always know what's going on in the real world. You seem to fit that to a tee. I keep going back and forth between a real reply and just WTF? People think that it is OK to stereotype an entire group of people based on a few eccentric types. I work for a small firm and the engineers are as such: One is a cowboy type who drinks a ton, one is the "connoisseur of life" who enjoys fine foods/beer and ski'es a lot, and the other is me who is me who is Mr. Outdoors Tree-hugger. Certainly all three of us have our eccentricities, but none fall into the anti-social shut-in stereotype. But hey, I suppose it's easier for some to stereotype all engineers/math/science people into the functioning aspergers group than to admit that there are just things that they don't understand.
Yes but the truth of the matter is.. you get all types in every profession and job, good, bad, stupid, intelligent, socially sound, socially not..
Oh and I already knew Granite.. is an engineer.
It has nothing to do with being an Engineer, PC programmer - who can actually be geeks
Nurses (believe me some of the most biatches I have ever come across are in my own profession in the hospital settings mainly); doctors - not so bad, I'd rather hang out with a group of them in all honesty, still I did during my nurse training. And one of my best friends is an Anaesthetist back in the UK.
Still the point is, if you are broad minded enough and intelligent enough, you would actually realize it has nothing to do with the profession, but the person and their own personality, not the majority at all.
It can however, put you off if you work with e.g. a bunch of biatchy trouble makers, as in put you off the job altogether. I nearly became a lawyer on 3 occasions as a result, mainly due to working for the worst nursing managers, and encountering the few trouble maker biatches in my job in the UK. Law was always my 2nd choice mind you, and forensic law would have been my vote.
The majority of technicians I worked beside in my previous career were all decent great guys. I did later encounter a squadron of the opposite type, but it did not put me off all technicians and make me think they are all idiots, it was simply just a minority, group of immature ones I happened to come across at the time.
On the whole engineers are the best group of guys I can honestly say I have as a whole as friends, intelligent, brilliant at diy - very handy
And intelligent and clever in many ways not just one specific role I might add. I've had friends in that field for years, also very good with servicing your car as I had one friend do back home for me, he got the battery to fit safely when he noticed it was not in the right position or fixed down properly.
I've another who bought a house that needed doing up, he bought it in a state, totally gutted it out, and did the whole place up again. He did this all by himself and hired the tools, he showed me the before and after pics, and it was amazing! I was well impressed. Of course it was worth alot more after he finished it to, he still lives in it with his partner in Scotland.
I have another Engineering friend in Washington who built his 3.5 million dollar home and I stayed there - had my own ensuite in his huge house, took me hiking too as we couldn't climb at Leavenworth as intended the weather was too bad, again he figured all that out accurately, he again is highly intelligent, mature, and a good friend, ski instructor, rock climber - he gets to climb with Fred Beckey and introduced me to him, a great guy again.
So yes, Engineers are actually very intelligent switched on knowledgeable people who get my vote as far as I'm concerned. I can't say I've met many bad engineers. I have met worse female nurses however (that would be in my own profession, sadly).
(This post was edited by rockie on Mar 11, 2009, 5:09 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
aimeerose
Mar 11, 2009, 7:59 PM
Post #409 of 438
(4806 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 574
|
Bringing the topic back to the original post...
I am a climber and a mom. I totally disagree with that article and was upset about it as well. I climb harder now that before I had the baby and I am not the only woman I know for whom this is true. We have taken our baby to Spain, Canada and Mexico so we can climb. We've also done many trips to Red Rocks and Moab. There is no reason for your climbing to stop or decrease just because you're a mom. It just takes a little more planning and support. Fortunately our parents enjoy traveling and babysitting while we climb. We also have a great dedicated sitter at home that can go climbing with us or stay home with the baby.
Being a mom and a climber is totally compatible.
I'm also curious about the thread about breastfeeding at the crag, since I happened to do that and I even pumped at the crag and anyone who thinks that's wrong can kiss my booty.
|
|
|
|
|
clausti
Mar 11, 2009, 8:08 PM
Post #410 of 438
(4803 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 5, 2004
Posts: 5690
|
aimeerose wrote: I'm also curious about the thread about breastfeeding at the crag, since I happened to do that and I even pumped at the crag and anyone who thinks that's wrong can kiss my booty.
i have to admit i am totally baffled by people who get offended at moms breastfeeding in public. it's like... really? really??
|
|
|
|
|
lena_chita
Moderator
Mar 11, 2009, 8:23 PM
Post #411 of 438
(4802 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 6087
|
clausti wrote: aimeerose wrote: I'm also curious about the thread about breastfeeding at the crag, since I happened to do that and I even pumped at the crag and anyone who thinks that's wrong can kiss my booty. i have to admit i am totally baffled by people who get offended at moms breastfeeding in public. it's like... really? really??
But you can see BREAST!!!! And maybe even a nipple! -- if you stare at the breastfeeding mom for a long time and very carefully, you might get a brief flash of it when the baby latches on or comes off!!!! It's public nudity!!!!!! outrageous!!!!!!!!! Breasts are only supposed to be plastered all over billboards and Sports Illustrated covers. Letting a baby's mouth anywhere near that sex thing -- it is preposterious, I tell you! A child who is allowed to nurse in public will be walking around naked next thing you know, and committing God knows what other sins, b/c they won't have any shame!
Seriously though, I have never once had anyone make a negative comment to me. I've nursed everywhere from airports to my boss's office. Most of the time people simply didn't notice.
|
|
|
|
|
obsessed
Mar 12, 2009, 12:27 AM
Post #412 of 438
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 9341
|
desertwanderer81 wrote: iamthewallress wrote: granite_grrl wrote: ....The majority of engineers are socially stupid. Good at book smarts, but don't always know what's going on in the real world. You seem to fit that to a tee. I keep going back and forth between a real reply and just WTF? People think that it is OK to stereotype an entire group of people based on a few eccentric types. I work for a small firm and the engineers are as such: One is a cowboy type who drinks a ton, one is the "connoisseur of life" who enjoys fine foods/beer and ski'es a lot, and the other is me who is me who is Mr. Outdoors Tree-hugger. Certainly all three of us have our eccentricities, but none fall into the anti-social shut-in stereotype. But hey, I suppose it's easier for some to stereotype all engineers/math/science people into the functioning aspergers group than to admit that there are just things that they don't understand.
|
|
|
|
|
desertwanderer81
Mar 12, 2009, 12:31 AM
Post #413 of 438
(4778 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 5, 2007
Posts: 2272
|
Only 15 or 16 times so far.
|
|
|
|
|
obsessed
Mar 12, 2009, 12:31 AM
Post #414 of 438
(4777 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 9341
|
desertwanderer81 wrote: clausti wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: haha, thanks for pointing that out. I always thought that the word meant "the final answer". I guess I just took it up from context. Interesting enough, for years I confused condoned and condemned. would this be the wrong place to talk about engineers and verbal skills? Interestingly enough, my terrible spelling doesn't come from being an engineer. My brother who happens to be a brilliant writer tends to mispell things frequently too. We're both very well read usually puting away away a book a week or so. My problems with confusing certain words tends to come from contexual confusions. Like condone, is nearly always in a negative context. My own confusion with penultimate stems from it being used wrong frequently.
|
|
|
|
|
obsessed
Mar 12, 2009, 12:32 AM
Post #415 of 438
(4773 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 9341
|
desertwanderer81 wrote: Only 15 or 16 times so far.
|
|
|
|
|
aimeerose
Mar 12, 2009, 12:53 AM
Post #416 of 438
(4750 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 574
|
^^^ wishing people could stay on topic around here. I know I was late to this forum, but I just want to give other ladies hope that you can keep climbing. I never thought I wanted kids cause I didn't think I could get my body back and I thought I was too selfish, but it is the most amazing experience I've ever had. I was back in shape in a few months and my daughter is amazing. Don't be afraid ladies!
|
|
|
|
|
granite_grrl
Mar 12, 2009, 10:49 AM
Post #417 of 438
(4731 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 15084
|
obsessed wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: iamthewallress wrote: granite_grrl wrote: ....The majority of engineers are socially stupid. Good at book smarts, but don't always know what's going on in the real world. You seem to fit that to a tee. I keep going back and forth between a real reply and just WTF? People think that it is OK to stereotype an entire group of people based on a few eccentric types. I work for a small firm and the engineers are as such: One is a cowboy type who drinks a ton, one is the "connoisseur of life" who enjoys fine foods/beer and ski'es a lot, and the other is me who is me who is Mr. Outdoors Tree-hugger. Certainly all three of us have our eccentricities, but none fall into the anti-social shut-in stereotype. But hey, I suppose it's easier for some to stereotype all engineers/math/science people into the functioning aspergers group than to admit that there are just things that they don't understand. You don't know that GG is an Enginerd do you? Im sure someone has pointed this out by now, but wow you guys are really taking what she said and analyzing it to the extreme. I do believe she was making a generalized comment as an insider, not saying that all engineers are this way. Lighten up!
You guys are the best. 
|
|
|
|
|
clee03m
Mar 12, 2009, 7:11 PM
Post #418 of 438
(4713 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 29, 2004
Posts: 785
|
Thank you for your post. It's really nice to hear from moms who have made it work. I actually thought about you during this post, but I guess you were climbing too much to keep current on stuff online. I will be definately PM'ing you if my turn to pump at the crag happens (hopefully sometime next year).
Yeah, I wish enginerds will start a new thread somewhere else.
|
|
|
|
|
xgretax
Mar 12, 2009, 7:35 PM
Post #419 of 438
(4706 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 23, 2001
Posts: 248
|
Thank you for putting us back on topic, Aimee! As far as breast-feeding goes, I've fed my munchkin everywhere, even at the crag. I've received many crude comments and rude looks. Those things have never deterred me. In the words of Bikini Kill "Suck my left one!"
However, I've come to a tipping point in my nursing journey. My daughter will be 21 months old this month. My original goal was to nurse her until she was at least two and let her self-wean thereafter. (Disclaimer: This was my own, private goal, and will NOT debate the pros and cons of extended breast-feeding here.) It has become blatantly obvious that my body can no longer healthily meet the demands of a suckling toddler (see the thyroid hell thread). So, I'm weaning her this weekend. This is the hardest decision I've ever made (I'm balling right now). But I think it will be better for both of us in the long run.
Anyhow, I know that one may conclude from my posts alone that motherhood and X are hard. But I feel like my experience is the exception. Most people I know are like Aimee and are back in shape like that and have not had the postpartum difficulties I have. So, for those who want to go for it, go for it. It is what you make of it.
|
|
|
|
|
clee03m
Mar 12, 2009, 8:01 PM
Post #420 of 438
(4696 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 29, 2004
Posts: 785
|
Did you actually receive rude comments while you are at the crag? I really don't get that at all, and I hope may be rock climbers are above that kind of thing?
I am so sorry you can't meet your breast feeding goal. I have always been a strong breast feeding advocate, and as I face my future as a potential mom, I am so heavy with thoughts about how I am going to breast feed. I am starting to think that it may not be compatible with work. It kills me. I'm sorry again, and if it helps, I think it's awesome that you were able to breast feed for this long with all the stuff you are going through.
|
|
|
|
|
xgretax
Mar 12, 2009, 10:03 PM
Post #421 of 438
(4682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 23, 2001
Posts: 248
|
Yes, real, actual climbers. I live in a very conservative state (utah) where natural things are socially unacceptable whether you are a climber or not.
What are your concerns/fears about breast feeding and work? If these are too personal, I'd be happy to communicate through PM.
|
|
|
|
|
rockie
Mar 12, 2009, 11:53 PM
Post #422 of 438
(4670 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 18, 2007
Posts: 1130
|
xgretax wrote: Thank you for putting us back on topic, Aimee! As far as breast-feeding goes, I've fed my munchkin everywhere, even at the crag. I've received many crude comments and rude looks. Those things have never deterred me. In the words of Bikini Kill "Suck my left one!" However, I've come to a tipping point in my nursing journey. My daughter will be 21 months old this month. My original goal was to nurse her until she was at least two and let her self-wean thereafter. (Disclaimer: This was my own, private goal, and will NOT debate the pros and cons of extended breast-feeding here.) It has become blatantly obvious that my body can no longer healthily meet the demands of a suckling toddler (see the thyroid hell thread). So, I'm weaning her this weekend. This is the hardest decision I've ever made (I'm balling right now). But I think it will be better for both of us in the long run. Anyhow, I know that one may conclude from my posts alone that motherhood and X are hard. But I feel like my experience is the exception. Most people I know are like Aimee and are back in shape like that and have not had the postpartum difficulties I have. So, for those who want to go for it, go for it. It is what you make of it.
Thank you for that.. I had to laugh at the "suck the left one!" comment.
I intended to do what I will anyway, and if others do not like it.. well you know what they say; sod them and their narrow minds who cares what they think?
As long as you are not endangering your child obviously, then all goes. I'll introduce them to the great outdoors, the various sports as their age permits etc, and let them decide what they want and like to do most, and then I will facilitate that as far as possible.
|
|
|
|
|
rockie
Mar 12, 2009, 11:55 PM
Post #423 of 438
(4669 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 18, 2007
Posts: 1130
|
xgretax wrote: Yes, real, actual climbers. I live in a very conservative state (utah) where natural things are socially unacceptable whether you are a climber or not. What are your concerns/fears about breast feeding and work? If these are too personal, I'd be happy to communicate through PM.
So glad I don't reside in the US, ahem.
|
|
|
|
|
aimeerose
Mar 13, 2009, 4:36 AM
Post #424 of 438
(4660 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 574
|
clee03m, Do I know you? You were saying this post made you think of me, so I was just curious.
I nursed at crags in Utah and was fortunate enough not to have anyone say anything to me. I even nursed at the Outdoor Retailer Trade Show leaning up against a wall in a main passageway. It was a bit awkward pumping at the crag, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
|
|
|
|
|
xgretax
Mar 13, 2009, 5:17 AM
Post #425 of 438
(4655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 23, 2001
Posts: 248
|
I don't get crap for nursing all of the time (at the crag), just sometimes. It is usually the younger crowd (19ish) on date night or something (yes, literally, dates. anyone who frequents logan canyon knows what i'm talking about). Think, in a very high pitch, valley-girlesque squeel, 'Ewww, that's so friggin' grrrroossss!" or, pervert. yeah.
|
|
|
|
|
|
