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suprasoup
Aug 28, 2009, 10:15 PM
Post #51 of 68
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olderic wrote: jt512 wrote: So are the bolt-protected 5.15s. If that doesn't meet your arbitrarily narrow view of what "real climbing" is, then too bad for you. Jay That's the typical knee-jerk sport climber/boulderer response - our pursuit is distilled down to the pure essence. Mainly used as an excuse when all the extraneous stuff turns out to be too hard and scary. Just because you choose not to validate or participate in the other disciplines doesn't make them any less relevant. You need to check yourself and remember that climbing means different things to different people.
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olderic
Aug 29, 2009, 12:54 AM
Post #52 of 68
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scion wrote: olderic wrote: But at a lower level there are things that were rated 5.9+ back in the day (that's how you like to hear us geezers talk) that are as hard as many 11+/12- things today. I have done both and I am quite sure about that. [..] Yeah I know all about grade compresson at the high end and how the +- and a,b.c.d thing came about (I was there) but it has been over done. Ummm, given that you know about "how the +- and a,b.c.d thing came about", what exactly is your excuse for not understanding how it doesn't necessarily represent grade inflation for new school 5.12- climbs to be easier than old school 5.9+s? Maybe you should give it a little more thought while you're stirring your Metamucil? JT claims I am delusional for thinking that. You claim it's obvious. No wonder us geezers get crotchety. You whipper snappers need to coordinate yoyur attacks. Even someone named after a cheap car should realize that.
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olderic
Aug 29, 2009, 1:03 AM
Post #53 of 68
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jt512 wrote: olderic wrote: jt512 wrote: So are the bolt-protected 5.15s. If that doesn't meet your arbitrarily narrow view of what "real climbing" is, then too bad for you. Jay That's the typical knee-jerk sport climber/boulderer response - our pursuit is distilled down to the pure essence. Mainly used as an excuse when all the extraneous stuff turns out to be too hard and scary. Check your own knee-jerk reaction. I don't exclude trad climbing from "real climbing." I just understand that it's not the only kind. Jay However embracing and encompassing potential danger has been an integral part of the climbing experience for several hundred years. It's only the last couple of decades that a revisionist approach has been taken - attempting to use the same term - "climbing" - to describe their dumbed down sanitized activity. For all your recent lip service to recognizing all types of climbing experiences as valid - you have a long history of being derogatory towards old school attitudes and approaches. That's a kind of climbing too - more in tune with the multi century history of climbing.
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jt512
Aug 29, 2009, 1:17 AM
Post #54 of 68
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olderic wrote: jt512 wrote: olderic wrote: jt512 wrote: So are the bolt-protected 5.15s. If that doesn't meet your arbitrarily narrow view of what "real climbing" is, then too bad for you. Jay That's the typical knee-jerk sport climber/boulderer response - our pursuit is distilled down to the pure essence. Mainly used as an excuse when all the extraneous stuff turns out to be too hard and scary. Check your own knee-jerk reaction. I don't exclude trad climbing from "real climbing." I just understand that it's not the only kind. Jay However embracing and encompassing potential danger has been an integral part of the climbing experience for several hundred years. It's only the last couple of decades that a revisionist approach has been taken - attempting to use the same term - "climbing" - to describe their dumbed down sanitized activity. For all your recent lip service to recognizing all types of climbing experiences as valid - you have a long history of being derogatory towards old school attitudes and approaches. That's a kind of climbing too - more in tune with the multi century history of climbing. I have not been derogatory to trad climbing, except to express my opinion that it is uninteresting. What I have been derogatory about are dismissive attitudes like yours. Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 29, 2009, 1:18 AM)
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olderic
Aug 29, 2009, 2:07 PM
Post #55 of 68
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jt512 wrote: I have not been derogatory to trad climbing, except to express my opinion that it is uninteresting. What I have been derogatory about are dismissive attitudes like yours. Jay I little irony in that statement I would say. You know you could have an excellent career as a politician - your ability to take one thing out of context and make some provocative response designed to pander to the masses and receive their accolades - increase your stature as an Internet hero - is astounding. Not so much your ability as a debater though as you ignore 95% of the topic. I know you don't like to elaborate - might diminish your reputation with the masses if it became clear that you are just spraying the latest fashion and have no real depth of knowledge of the climbing subject - but comment as you see fit on the following two items (I wait with baited breath). You say I thought you were derogatory towards trad climbing - what I actually said was other - typically older styles. Consider the pink point vs. redpoint topic. You have repeatedly dissed the concept of pink pointing and anyone who would care. Not very accepting of other styles are those that consider them significant - no stick clipping and on-sight being others - no you just stick with the latest fashion making snide comments designed to improve your popularity with the main stream. How about this idea - historically a major factor of climbing is that there is an element of risk. Overcoming that is part of the whole - may not be the primary reason for climbing but was one of the components and part of the challenge,. That was the basis for the often (miss) quote of Hemingway about real sports. The whole philosophy of "sport climbing" is to engineer out that risk factor. Fine by me - to each their own (am I being dismissive again - probably) what I object to is till calling this activity "climbing" and believing it has a connection to what has gone on for 100's of years. Call it "extreme vertical movement" if you will - much more akin to gymnastics or a Project Bandaloop performance. OK fire away - more then 2 lines if you dare.
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mr.tastycakes
Aug 29, 2009, 2:44 PM
Post #56 of 68
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really? are y'all really going to have this tired, old argument AGAIN?
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jt512
Aug 29, 2009, 4:00 PM
Post #58 of 68
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olderic wrote: jt512 wrote: I have not been derogatory to trad climbing, except to express my opinion that it is uninteresting. What I have been derogatory about are dismissive attitudes like yours. Jay I little irony in that statement I would say. You know you could have an excellent career as a politician - your ability to take one thing out of context and make some provocative response designed to pander to the masses and receive their accolades - increase your stature as an Internet hero - is astounding. Not so much your ability as a debater though as you ignore 95% of the topic. I know you don't like to elaborate - might diminish your reputation with the masses if it became clear that you are just spraying the latest fashion and have no real depth of knowledge of the climbing subject - but comment as you see fit on the following two items (I wait with baited breath). You say I thought you were derogatory towards trad climbing - what I actually said was other - typically older styles. Consider the pink point vs. redpoint topic. You have repeatedly dissed the concept of pink pointing and anyone who would care. Not very accepting of other styles are those that consider them significant - no stick clipping and on-sight being others - no you just stick with the latest fashion making snide comments designed to improve your popularity with the main stream. How about this idea - historically a major factor of climbing is that there is an element of risk. Overcoming that is part of the whole - may not be the primary reason for climbing but was one of the components and part of the challenge,. That was the basis for the often (miss) quote of Hemingway about real sports. The whole philosophy of "sport climbing" is to engineer out that risk factor. Fine by me - to each their own (am I being dismissive again - probably) what I object to is till calling this activity "climbing" and believing it has a connection to what has gone on for 100's of years. Call it "extreme vertical movement" if you will - much more akin to gymnastics or a Project Bandaloop performance. OK fire away - more then 2 lines if you dare. I'm not interesting in discussing this with you. The subject bores me, and you bore me. Jay
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scion
Aug 29, 2009, 6:33 PM
Post #59 of 68
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olderic wrote: JT claims I am delusional for thinking that. You claim it's obvious. No wonder us geezers get crotchety. You whipper snappers need to coordinate yoyur attacks. Even someone named after a cheap car should realize that. Nothing that Jay said contradicts anything that I said. You're the one who isn't being internally consistent, and my seventh period teacher says consistency is crucial to forming a compelling argument. But I'm with you, if you ain't climbing with an onion tied to your belt, then you ain't climbing.
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gmggg
Aug 29, 2009, 8:30 PM
Post #61 of 68
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Factor2 wrote: jakedatc wrote: so saying you should never load a biner over an edge is dumb too.. Never zip clipping.. never back clip.. never have a biner crossloaded over the gate.. never fall with the rope behind your leg.. there's lots of things you just shouldn't fucking do. ever. What if I'm up on 2500' up on a wall, out of rescue territory. I'm 80' out from my last piece, and i find a bolt. But clipping it puts my last biner that i have on me over an edge. Should I skip it because you told me to never ever ever put a biner over an edge? your a sport recreationer eh jake? Sounds like a 5.4 slab. You should be fine either way.
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Factor2
Aug 29, 2009, 8:37 PM
Post #62 of 68
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gmggg wrote: Factor2 wrote: jakedatc wrote: so saying you should never load a biner over an edge is dumb too.. Never zip clipping.. never back clip.. never have a biner crossloaded over the gate.. never fall with the rope behind your leg.. there's lots of things you just shouldn't fucking do. ever. What if I'm up on 2500' up on a wall, out of rescue territory. I'm 80' out from my last piece, and i find a bolt. But clipping it puts my last biner that i have on me over an edge. Should I skip it because you told me to never ever ever put a biner over an edge? your a sport recreationer eh jake? Sounds like a 5.4 slab. You should be fine either way. get your own hypothetical situation
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REAL
Aug 30, 2009, 6:11 AM
Post #63 of 68
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Registered: May 13, 2009
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Beautiful Pic, GG. Where was this?
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USnavy
Aug 30, 2009, 11:38 AM
Post #64 of 68
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cracklover wrote: Hey Jay - Heliums gate open: 10kN. Bam! Take that Mr Pretzl! G Stubai Supreme = 11 kN open Kong Ergo #763 = 12 kN open Take that Mr.WC...
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olderic
Aug 30, 2009, 3:58 PM
Post #65 of 68
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Did he place his own gear - might have been (relatively) trivial to do - but he wasn't relying in someone else to engineer out the risk. If you really read what I said I talked about encompassing perceived or potential risk - often times - most times - usually mitigated - but part of the challenge, You might be surprised how many falls I have taken and some of the serious consequences they have resulted in - but then again I don't make the public drama out of them like some people do.
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billcoe_
Aug 30, 2009, 4:42 PM
Post #66 of 68
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Olderic, you might re-read the first post and decide if your words are anywhere near the mark. Little tip for you, you may find your argument with JT interesting, but no one else does. Even JT. Perhaps start a new thread with your topic (s)? Regards Bill ps, you have very good points, but they are getting buried into the minutia of a different topic. Many of us know that anything Greg Lowe did 30 years ago and called 5.9+ could have easily later tipped the scales in the 5.12 R or X range. Far as that goes, a guy doing a FA climbing a 5.9 friction climb in the 60's like Kamps or Kor, with a handdrill and mandatory 30 foot runouts till he could stance, was way more extended and engaged than dudes doing "cutting edge" 5.13 today with sticky rubber who may have toproped the moves into submission for weeks before rap drilling some monster bolts. No question and no argument.
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Aug 30, 2009, 4:52 PM)
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granite_grrl
Aug 31, 2009, 11:32 AM
Post #67 of 68
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olderic wrote: Did he place his own gear - might have been (relatively) trivial to do - but he wasn't relying in someone else to engineer out the risk. He placed his own gear. Would have been a much faster process just to pinkpoint it, but he wanted to do it in the best style he was capable of. Edited to add that the FFA was done by Peter Croft on pinkpoint. Though I'm sure that it was pretty trivial to him, as far as I know that route hasn't had many ascents, pink or red.
(This post was edited by granite_grrl on Aug 31, 2009, 11:41 AM)
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cracklover
Aug 31, 2009, 3:00 PM
Post #68 of 68
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USnavy wrote: cracklover wrote: Hey Jay - Heliums gate open: 10kN. Bam! Take that Mr Pretzl! G Stubai Supreme = 11 kN open Kong Ergo #763 = 12 kN open Take that Mr.WC... Sorry, I guess you missed the inside joke about Jay having a Pretzl fixation. I like my Heliums, but don't have a woody for WC (or any other gear company). Anyhow, interesting info on those biners. GO
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