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qwert
Sep 5, 2011, 7:54 PM
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johnwesely wrote: rescueman wrote: Failures are excellent learning experiences - if we survive them intact - but they should never be a goal. The goal of any master is to ply their craft without failure. For climbers, failure is part of the path to mastery. There is no way around it.
There i would prefer not to fail, e.g. by fast simulclimbing of the easiest pitches …
qwert
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rescueman
Sep 5, 2011, 7:55 PM
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johnwesely wrote: No one is going to argue with you that the goal of climbing is to fall. It would be great to never fall, but if you care about improving, which is fine if you do not, you will fall. Every traditional climber of note falls.
Watch the movie Man On Wire, about Philippe Petit, who walked a wire between the World Trade towers when they were under construction in 1974. In a recent interview, he said that "falling was not part of his reality". He also said that he knew he could complete the walk (in fact, did it eight times) - in other words, as a true master of the art, he operated perfectly within his limits. He says that he has never fallen during a performance (and fell only once during practice at Ringling Brothers Circus).
Someday, grasshopper, you might live into the wisdom of a true Jedi Master. But not likely, if you're unable to listen to the wisdom of those who have completed that journey.
(This post was edited by rescueman on Sep 5, 2011, 8:04 PM)
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johnwesely
Sep 5, 2011, 7:58 PM
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qwert wrote: johnwesely wrote: rescueman wrote: Failures are excellent learning experiences - if we survive them intact - but they should never be a goal. The goal of any master is to ply their craft without failure. For climbers, failure is part of the path to mastery. There is no way around it. Except in the alpine/ long multipitch area, where a failure might as well get you into big problems rather fast. There i would prefer not to fail, e.g. by fast simulclimbing of the easiest pitches … qwert
To get to the point where you would be a master in that discipline, you would have to do a whole lot of failing while cragging.
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johnwesely
Sep 5, 2011, 8:00 PM
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rescueman wrote: johnwesely wrote: No one is going to argue with you that the goal of climbing is to fall. It would be great to never fall, but if you care about improving, which is fine if you do not, you will fall. Every traditional climber of note falls. Watch the movie Man On Wire, about Philippe Petit, who walked a wire between the World Trade towers when they were under construction in 1974. In a recent interview, he said that "falling was not part of his reality". He also said that he knew he could complete the walk (in fact, did it three times) - in other words, as a true master of the art, he operated perfectly within his limits. [image]http://jetcomx.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/man-on-wire-21.jpg[/image] Someday, grasshopper, you might live into the wisdom of a true Jedi Master. But not likely, if you're unable to listen to the wisdom of those who have completed that journey.
At some point you are going to need to stop relying on false analogies and lame turns of phrase if you want people to take you seriously. If you can't see why this analogy is even worse than your last, I don't know how productive this whole internet discussion thing is going to be for you.
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rescueman
Sep 5, 2011, 8:07 PM
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At some point, you're going to have to admit that - at 21 - you know little about anything and that you have a lot to learn from your elders.
But I'm not holding my breath.
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johnwesely
Sep 5, 2011, 8:15 PM
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rescueman wrote: At some point, you're going to have to admit that - at 21 - you know little about anything and that you have a lot to learn from your elders. But I'm not holding my breath.
At some point, you are going to have to admit that you have some admitted gaps in your experience and don't know as much as you think. Or, you know, you could just resort to ad hominems.
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qwert
Sep 5, 2011, 8:26 PM
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rescueman wrote: johnwesely wrote: No one is going to argue with you that the goal of climbing is to fall. It would be great to never fall, but if you care about improving, which is fine if you do not, you will fall. Every traditional climber of note falls. Watch the movie Man On Wire, about Philippe Petit, who walked a wire between the World Trade towers when they were under construction in 1974. In a recent interview, he said that "falling was not part of his reality". He also said that he knew he could complete the walk (in fact, did it eight times) - in other words, as a true master of the art, he operated perfectly within his limits. He says that he has never fallen during a performance (and fell only once during practice at Ringling Brothers Circus). [image]http://jetcomx.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/man-on-wire-21.jpg[/image] Someday, grasshopper, you might live into the wisdom of a true Jedi Master. But not likely, if you're unable to listen to the wisdom of those who have completed that journey.
Yes, those folks exist, but for most that are doing stuff at that level, falling is just part of the game - with the needed precautions.
Or are you going to tell me that that fall free trad you are doing is 5.13 and above?
Again - the 6th time now? - no one says you - or anyone else for that matter - has to climb hard in order to have fun, but your wording implies that you think you climb hard…
qwert
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Kartessa
Sep 5, 2011, 8:37 PM
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johnwesely wrote: rescueman wrote: At some point, you're going to have to admit that - at 21 - you know little about anything and that you have a lot to learn from your elders. But I'm not holding my breath. At some point, you are going to have to admit that you have some admitted gaps in your experience and don't know as much as you think. Or, you know, you could just resort to ad hominems.
Quoted for awesomeness
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MarcelS
Sep 5, 2011, 8:38 PM
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Actually I am a bit surprised that in a discussion/argument between an older and experienced person and a young grasshopper, the latter seems so much more adult.
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areyoumydude
Sep 5, 2011, 8:56 PM
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rescueman wrote: johnwesely wrote: No one is going to argue with you that the goal of climbing is to fall. It would be great to never fall, but if you care about improving, which is fine if you do not, you will fall. Every traditional climber of note falls. Watch the movie Man On Wire, about Philippe Petit, who walked a wire between the World Trade towers when they were under construction in 1974. In a recent interview, he said that "falling was not part of his reality". He also said that he knew he could complete the walk (in fact, did it eight times) - in other words, as a true master of the art, he operated perfectly within his limits. Someday, grasshopper, you might live into the wisdom of a true Jedi Master. But not likely, if you're unable to listen to the wisdom of those who have completed that journey.
Bad analogy. Of course "falling was not part of his reality". That is the mindset of any soloist. This walk was well within his abilities. That's like saying a 5.12 climber soloing a 5.8 is a master free soloist because he is soloing within his limits.
When soloing, whether it be tightrope, highline, or climbing one is usually doing it well below there abilities, so they really aren't pushing any physical limits. That doesn't make them a master.
Frankly, I surprised you would condone such a daredevil event. I am quite sure his rigging wouldn't be OSHA approved.
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rescueman
Sep 5, 2011, 9:06 PM
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qwert wrote: your wording implies that you think you climb hard…
Don't blame me for your lack of comprehension.
I never stated that I climb hard, nor did anything I said suggest or imply that. I climb perfectly.
"Hard" is for those with something to prove. Perfection is for true masters.
And simple physical difficulty is the least important determinant of the quality of a climb (or of anything else in life). A monkey can do a difficult climb. A master turns a climb (or any other experience) into a metaphysical event.
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areyoumydude
Sep 5, 2011, 9:19 PM
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rescueman wrote: I never stated that I climb hard, nor did anything I said suggest or imply that. I climb perfectly. "Hard" is for those with something to prove. Perfection is for true masters. And simple physical difficulty is the least important determinant of the quality of a climb (or of anything else in life). A monkey can do a difficult climb. A master turns a climb (or any other experience) into a metaphysical event.
That is complete bullshit.
It just sounds like you're making excuses for being a shitty climber.
You're the one in need of an ego check.
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binrat
Sep 5, 2011, 9:33 PM
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johnwesely wrote: rescueman wrote: johnwesely wrote: No one is going to argue with you that the goal of climbing is to fall. It would be great to never fall, but if you care about improving, which is fine if you do not, you will fall. Every traditional climber of note falls. Watch the movie Man On Wire, about Philippe Petit, who walked a wire between the World Trade towers when they were under construction in 1974. In a recent interview, he said that "falling was not part of his reality". He also said that he knew he could complete the walk (in fact, did it three times) - in other words, as a true master of the art, he operated perfectly within his limits. [image]http://jetcomx.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/man-on-wire-21.jpg[/image] Someday, grasshopper, you might live into the wisdom of a true Jedi Master. But not likely, if you're unable to listen to the wisdom of those who have completed that journey. At some point you are going to need to stop relying on false analogies and lame turns of phrase if you want people to take you seriously. If you can't see why this analogy is even worse than your last, I don't know how productive this whole internet discussion thing is going to be for you.
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johnwesely
Sep 5, 2011, 9:40 PM
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binrat wrote: johnwesely wrote: rescueman wrote: johnwesely wrote: No one is going to argue with you that the goal of climbing is to fall. It would be great to never fall, but if you care about improving, which is fine if you do not, you will fall. Every traditional climber of note falls. Watch the movie Man On Wire, about Philippe Petit, who walked a wire between the World Trade towers when they were under construction in 1974. In a recent interview, he said that "falling was not part of his reality". He also said that he knew he could complete the walk (in fact, did it three times) - in other words, as a true master of the art, he operated perfectly within his limits. [image]http://jetcomx.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/man-on-wire-21.jpg[/image] Someday, grasshopper, you might live into the wisdom of a true Jedi Master. But not likely, if you're unable to listen to the wisdom of those who have completed that journey. At some point you are going to need to stop relying on false analogies and lame turns of phrase if you want people to take you seriously. If you can't see why this analogy is even worse than your last, I don't know how productive this whole internet discussion thing is going to be for you. He's doing the old "Vermont Side Step" to get out of the current pressure.
Is it working?
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areyoumydude
Sep 5, 2011, 9:45 PM
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rescueman wrote: Petit actually ended up getting all charges dropped and was given a lifetime pass to the WTC observation deck for his act.
I've read a couple of his books, one of which is his account of the twin towers walk. It is way more in depth than the movie.
The amazing part of that story is the planning and execution not the walk itself.
rescueman wrote: What people who climb merely to prove their physical abilities cannot possibly comprehend is that, when one is climbing to perfection, one is climbing at the pinnacle of performance - even if the grade is 5.4.
That is just silly.
Please tell me how you climb a 5.4 to perfection. Seriously.
...and why do you think that someone trying to climb harder stuff is trying to prove something?
rescueman wrote: It's not the grade that matters, but the mindset and the merging of rock and climber into an indivisible entity and a seamless movement. Climber and rock become one.
Wow, that's deep.
.....and by deep, I mean knee deep.
(This post was edited by areyoumydude on Sep 5, 2011, 9:47 PM)
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sungam
Sep 5, 2011, 10:09 PM
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I would bet my Chillblast Fusion on the fact that John knows a hell of a lot more about rock climbing then you do. You may know more about roped rescue and other esoterica, but when it comes to actual movement over rock I am willing to bet you are as clueless as you are about fast and light.
Edit to add: please, PLEASE try to pull your "experience" on Areyoumydude... PLEASE.
Now THAT would be funny!
(This post was edited by sungam on Sep 5, 2011, 10:11 PM)
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 5, 2011, 10:26 PM
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Rman, you need to seriously step off your high horse. You were called out on making an erroneous assertion about the ability to move fast being poor planning, when in actuality it's a necessary skill to do long routes. Then you went and admitted that you haven't done any long routes. Am I missing something here?
Now, go ahead and post my profile. Most of us don't need to post our resume. We judge people's expertise by what they post. That's how an online forum works. If you want people to read your resume, then go to monster.com.
 Smiley to show you I'm not an asshole
Josh
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rescueman
Sep 5, 2011, 10:46 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Rman, you need to seriously step off your high horse.
In reply to: You were called out on making an erroneous assertion about the ability to move fast being poor planning, when in actuality it's a necessary skill to do long routes.
I never questioned the ability to move fast when necessary. In fact, I specifically stated the importance of it in unanticipated circumstances. I've simul-climbed on occasion - it's a useful skill, particularly when there is no good belay station within one rope length. But, if I had planned the climb better, I might have brought a longer rope.
areyoumydude wrote: I've read a couple of [Petit's] books, one of which is his account of the twin towers walk. It is way more in depth than the movie. The amazing part of that story is the planning and execution not the walk itself.
In fact, Petit spent six years planning this event, including a lot of on-site investigation and analysis. That's why he didn't have to "move fast" when it came to the actual feat, and why he could carry it out to perfection.
In reply to: Most of us don't need to post our resume. We judge people's expertise by what they post. That's how an online forum works.
And that's how all responsible research is done, whether in a library or on-line. There are also many published books that are not worth reading, and newspaper "advice" columns that are better to avoid. On the internet, it's harder yet to determine the reliability, validity or value of any posted comment or "fact".
"Sounds good to me" is not a good basis for accepting anything posted here as useful. Something more is required.
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 5, 2011, 10:55 PM
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rescueman wrote: It's not about YOUR need. It's about what newbies to this forum need: some basis for judging the worth of various anonymous opinions. . 
Josh
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 5, 2011, 10:58 PM
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rescueman wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Now, go ahead and post my profile. Smiley to show you I'm not an asshole Josh's profile Occupation: Shaper of Young Minds Man, I'm so glad you're not an asshole.
Yay!! Now I have a stalker too!!!
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rescueman
Sep 5, 2011, 11:06 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Seems to me that newbies would be able to figure it out when one person says something and 65 others refute it.
If truth were determined by majority opinion, we would still have slavery, the disenfranchisement of women, sweat shops, and Al Gore would have been president.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 5, 2011, 11:17 PM
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rescueman wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Seems to me that newbies would be able to figure it out when one person says something and 65 others refute it. If truth were determined by majority opinion, we would still have slavery, the disenfranchisement of women, sweat shops, and Al Gore would have been president. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain
Dude, what is wrong with you? Just own up to what you said.
blueeyedclimber out. Maybe I should go update my resume. You never know who a n00b might listen to.
Josh
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Kartessa
Sep 6, 2011, 12:18 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Dude, what isn't wrong with you? Just own up to what you said grow the fuck up.
Fixed
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