|
okinawatricam
Jan 27, 2004, 4:42 AM
Post #1 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2003
Posts: 420
|
When will climbers realize that sport climbing and Trad climbing compliment one another. I love gear routes, and prefer them to sport, but I have done some truly great sport climbs as well.
The sport climbing I do helps me with my trad climbing, while the trad climbing I do helps me with sport routes. By intertwining the two, we can all learn to climb better.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jan 27, 2004, 4:50 AM
Post #2 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
You could not possibly be more wrong.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
okinawatricam
Jan 27, 2004, 4:57 AM
Post #3 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2003
Posts: 420
|
How so?
|
|
|
|
|
aklaunch
Jan 27, 2004, 5:00 AM
Post #4 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 28, 2003
Posts: 29
|
i think most climbers have and do realize this.
i dont care what curt says. :D
|
|
|
|
|
fracture
Jan 27, 2004, 5:04 AM
Post #5 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 1814
|
Agreed.
I don't understand the trad mentality which views sport climbing as somehow morally wrong. Or the sport mentality which thinks trad climbers can't pull down. Oh wait...I do understand the latter...nevermind ;).
....that is to say...doing one will make you better at the other (to a degree). Oh, and Aid rocks too :D
Cue rrradam's "it's all climbing brutha" post.....
|
|
|
|
|
dwise
Jan 27, 2004, 5:05 AM
Post #6 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2004
Posts: 190
|
Here here Eman. I say do it all: sport, trad, ice, bouldering, aid, alpine. It's all good and only makes you stronger.
|
|
|
|
|
camhead
Jan 27, 2004, 5:09 AM
Post #7 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
|
dammit. curt beat me to it.
bouldering gives you hella-licious power, gymnastic agility, and the opportunity to finely hone the intricacies of movement over rock in a controlled environment.
trad gives you endurance, balls, commitment and mental stamina.
now... what does sport give you that trad and bouldering do not? how does it contribute to your overall well being as a climber?
|
|
|
|
|
okinawatricam
Jan 27, 2004, 5:10 AM
Post #8 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2003
Posts: 420
|
Hey Dave, you know I do! of course my ice skills have been going to waste here on OKi, I am looking at Alaska for a couple of years though. Who knows.
I'll be in the valley end of May. Any chance>>>>>>>>>u
I spent all last season on sport climbing on Okinawa, when I got back to the states, I was climbing strong as ever on gear. I attributeit to the strenght gains and continuos movement that clipping bolts alows.
|
|
|
|
|
okinawatricam
Jan 27, 2004, 5:14 AM
Post #9 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2003
Posts: 420
|
Sport climbing is very much like bouldering, except it require endurance.
The misconception about trad is that it means crack climbing.
Sport climbing would help with:
Confidence on pulling roofs at the gunks.
Overhanging (trad) face climb on Whitesides (NC)
Crimps at Sunset.
Any area that offer long hard continuous movement on rock.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jan 27, 2004, 5:20 AM
Post #10 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
Real climbing (trad) and sport climbing are at odds with one another on a fundamental philosophical basis. One must go back in the history of climbing to appreciate how different these divergent aspects of climbing really are.
You need to go back to what I consider to be the golden age of rock climbing, which came to a close in the late 1970s, just when I was being introduced to the sport. Up until that time, advancements in climbing difficulty were accompanied by parallel advancements in climbing ethics. Guys like John Stannard, Steve Wunsch, Royal Robbins, John Bachar and others had advanced the standards of climbing difficulty while at the same time promoting purer ethics.
All advancements in pure climbing difficulty that came after this generation occurred as the direct result of trading off this advance in difficulty by sacrificing ethical standards. You may be for this trend--or you may be against it, but this is a fact.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
scubasnyder
Jan 27, 2004, 5:23 AM
Post #11 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2003
Posts: 1639
|
yeah they are totally different, the only thing that is alike is you may use a webbing and some carabiners on the climb.
|
|
|
|
|
kalcario
Jan 27, 2004, 5:27 AM
Post #12 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 1601
|
*now... what does sport give you that trad and bouldering do not? how does it contribute to your overall well being as a climber?*
Ask all the sport climbers who have freed El Cap. Lynn Hill trained for freeing The Nose by sport climbing in France. Alex Huber learned enough about trad in 2 months without having done it before to free the Salathe. My buddy Jason onsighted Moonlight Butress in Zion having done zero crack climbing in the 10 years previous. Rob Miller of Yosemite fame is at the VRG right now projecting 13's. Shall I go on?
|
|
|
|
|
dwise
Jan 27, 2004, 5:28 AM
Post #13 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2004
Posts: 190
|
Wish I could make it to the valley in May, but I just dislocated my shoulder (yet again) at Reimer's this wkend. Finally going to get it fixed so I can quit whining about my bum shoulder and start climbing hard again. Needless to say, I'll be spending the next several months spraying and nursing a lame wing instead of actually climbing (sigh...). Keep me posted on your timeline. Who knows, maybe I'll have a miraculously quick recovery....
I'll be in Washington state in July...
|
|
|
|
|
okinawatricam
Jan 27, 2004, 5:45 AM
Post #14 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2003
Posts: 420
|
In June we'll be in Grand T and the needles after words. Most of July will be in the White Mountains. Cathedral/Cannon/and clipping bolts at you know where
|
|
|
|
|
the_alpine
Jan 27, 2004, 5:49 AM
Post #15 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2003
Posts: 371
|
Curt man..........let it go brother. It's all rock climbing. You are a climber of rocks. Don't be a specialist, be a CLIMBER.
|
|
|
|
|
okinawatricam
Jan 27, 2004, 5:49 AM
Post #16 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2003
Posts: 420
|
Thank you kalcario, I knew someone else would know what's going on.
Actually, contrary to today, many of the things our legends did were quite controversial when they did them. Royal Robbins himself added a bolt on the second accent of the Nose. Dick Leonard (Father of Nylon) brought bolts to climbing, and somewhere along the way we started using sticky rubber. Of course that doesn't make climbing any easier and is completely ethical .today
|
|
|
|
|
dwise
Jan 27, 2004, 5:55 AM
Post #17 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2004
Posts: 190
|
In reply to: Real climbing (trad) and sport climbing are at odds with one another on a fundamental philosophical basis. One must go back in the history of climbing to appreciate how different these divergent aspects of climbing really are. You need to go back to what I consider to be the golden age of rock climbing, which came to a close in the late 1970s, just when I was being introduced to the sport. Up until that time, advancements in climbing difficulty were accompanied by parallel advancements in climbing ethics. Guys like John Stannard, Steve Wunsch, Royal Robbins, John Bachar and others had advanced the standards of climbing difficulty while at the same time promoting purer ethics. All advancements in pure climbing difficulty that came after this generation occurred as the direct result of trading off this advance in difficulty by sacrificing ethical standards. You may be for this trend--or you may be against it, but this is a fact. Curt
Sorry Curt, but that's some serious Stone Age logic.
A century and some change ago, armies stood online 50 yds apart shooting muskets at one another. It wasn't unusual for armies to suffer tens of thousands of casualties in a single day. Fortunately, no one's laying around reminiscing about 'the good ole days' and belittling these young whipper snappers with their new fangled machine guns, kevlar body armor, tanks and camouflage. Amazingly enough, we still study the older forms of warfare and apply lessons learned because tactics are tactics and there remains common threads. Climbing is no different.
True, there are many differences between trad and sport, but they share the same 'golden era' roots and fundamentals. The 'old school' ethics are great, but the sport has evolved into many forms. 'True' climbers sample all the various disciplines, find their own definition of climbing, and pursue whatever makes them happy.
Regardless of which type of climbing you prefer, participating in one only makes you stronger in the other.
|
|
|
|
|
okinawatricam
Jan 27, 2004, 6:20 AM
Post #18 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2003
Posts: 420
|
Thanks again Dave. I guess I should hire you as my body guard. Sorry to hear about the shoulder again.
|
|
|
|
|
crow
Jan 27, 2004, 6:45 AM
Post #19 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 7, 2003
Posts: 37
|
One comment.... I've met more dipshits at sport climbing places than at places where it was all trad and not a bolt in sight. Too many little fucks talking about there projects and you can't get on it cause it's their proj! I say give em another 10 Lbs of gear and then we'll talk pipsqueek! :x
|
|
|
|
|
okinawatricam
Jan 27, 2004, 6:53 AM
Post #20 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2003
Posts: 420
|
sounds like crow may be a little intimidated by those sport climbers. Why would you carry extra weight on any route. I don't carry my entire rack when I climb.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jan 27, 2004, 3:40 PM
Post #21 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: In reply to: Real climbing (trad) and sport climbing are at odds with one another on a fundamental philosophical basis. One must go back in the history of climbing to appreciate how different these divergent aspects of climbing really are. You need to go back to what I consider to be the golden age of rock climbing, which came to a close in the late 1970s, just when I was being introduced to the sport. Up until that time, advancements in climbing difficulty were accompanied by parallel advancements in climbing ethics. Guys like John Stannard, Steve Wunsch, Royal Robbins, John Bachar and others had advanced the standards of climbing difficulty while at the same time promoting purer ethics. All advancements in pure climbing difficulty that came after this generation occurred as the direct result of trading off this advance in difficulty by sacrificing ethical standards. You may be for this trend--or you may be against it, but this is a fact. Curt Sorry Curt, but that's some serious Stone Age logic. A century and some change ago, armies stood online 50 yds apart shooting muskets at one another. It wasn't unusual for armies to suffer tens of thousands of casualties in a single day. Fortunately, no one's laying around reminiscing about 'the good ole days' and belittling these young whipper snappers with their new fangled machine guns, kevlar body armor, tanks and camouflage. Amazingly enough, we still study the older forms of warfare and apply lessons learned because tactics are tactics and there remains common threads. Climbing is no different. True, there are many differences between trad and sport, but they share the same 'golden era' roots and fundamentals. The 'old school' ethics are great, but the sport has evolved into many forms. 'True' climbers sample all the various disciplines, find their own definition of climbing, and pursue whatever makes them happy. Regardless of which type of climbing you prefer, participating in one only makes you stronger in the other.
Well, at least my "Stone Age" logic didn't involve an inappropriate analogy, having absolutely nothing to do with the topic in question.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
camhead
Jan 27, 2004, 4:07 PM
Post #22 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
|
kalcario...
dean potter and leo houlding are two folks that will NOT make your list, and for the reasons that curt stated, I have a lot more respect for them.
|
|
|
|
|
jv
Jan 27, 2004, 4:44 PM
Post #23 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 363
|
In reply to: kalcario... dean potter and leo houlding are two folks that will NOT make your list, and for the reasons that curt stated, I have a lot more respect for them.
Alex Huber doesn't belong on that list either. Correct me if I am wrong, but the Climbing article about him after he freed the Salathe included his disparaging remarks about rap bolting, and other tactics of convenience. Some of his extremely hard (.13-.14) limestone routes in Europe had 30-foot runouts because he couldn't stop to drill. That is as trad as it gets. I remember thinking: "All these Euro dog/sport weenies just jumped the gun. Here's a trad climber who climbs 5.14." Just like in alpinism, there will always be a group of individuals who decline to use tactics that make the climb easier. That's the future.
JV
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jan 27, 2004, 4:50 PM
Post #24 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: Thank you kalcario, I knew someone else would know what's going on.
Since you have finally found a source of climbing ethics you can trust, I have located a few similar sources that you may want to reference, in regards to other ethical issues you may be struggling with.
Ken Lay - Ethics in the Field of Accounting
Jeffrey Dahmer - Ethical Choices in Diet
Albert DeSalvo - Ethical Treatment of Women
Adolph Hitler - Ethical Treatment of Minorities
Bill Clinton - Sexual Ethics in the Workplace
I hope you find these useful. :wink:
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
crazygirl
Jan 27, 2004, 5:18 PM
Post #25 of 146
(5159 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 595
|
based on the responses, it looks like sport and trad climbers do not compliment one another, except maybe for a few "nice butt" remarks. oh, thats a different topic
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sport and Trad Compliment one another
1
