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bobd1953
Jan 28, 2004, 12:20 AM
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In reply to: Really--is that what constitutes climbing? Anything that makes you stronger? Geez, I never really considered pull-ups and Nautilus workouts climbing before. Thanks for setting me straight. Come on now Curt. How can climbing real rock and doing real moves on a real cliff or big wall not help you improve your climbing skills? The difference between sport and trad is the placement of gear or lack of gear placements. Sounds a lot like bouldering...
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roughster
Jan 28, 2004, 12:22 AM
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In reply to: while i would be willing to agree that bouldering and trad compliment each other, i daresay that, in the mind of a tradwhore, trad and sport are diabolically opposed, and there's not much that sportos can do about it - well, except maybe coming to terms with being called names or drop the lycra and chop some bolts. Amber: Last I checked lycra went out in the early 90s, 10 years ago and at that time it was also being worn by trad climbers. In addition, I love how the general mentality of trad climber is somehow that they are bad ass. Of all the climbers I know, round up the top sport climber versus the top trad climbers and if you were to throw them into a brawl, the sport climber would freaking kick the living crap out of the trad climbers. The trad attitude towards sport climbng certainly posseses as much narrowmindeness and insecurities as probably any group on Earth. Whats funny is most sport climbers also trad, and many do it at a higher level than the average Trad Troll we see on these boards.
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imcd
Jan 28, 2004, 12:24 AM
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Why is it that some trad climbers(or sport climbers) feel they must try to impose thier "climbing ethics" or view points on others? I prefer to climb sport, but I would like to think that people are judging me on my personality and not the form of protection I use to stay alive. If you don't like sport climbing, stay away from it, and vise versa. Worry more about your own climbing and less about others. sport, trad, bouldering all = climbing
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bobd1953
Jan 28, 2004, 12:37 AM
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Curt, when I was bouldering a lot in the mid-80s with Gill, Murray, Lew Hoffman, Kevin Bein and other talented climbers, I was also doing some of my hardest trad-leads. When I sport climb a lot it also helps my trad-climbing abilities. Climbing a lot of rock is going to help you become a better climber. Do you agree?
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fracture
Jan 28, 2004, 12:40 AM
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In reply to: if you were to throw them into a brawl, the sport climber would freaking kick the living crap out of the trad climbers. :lol::!::!:
In reply to: The trad attitude towards sport climbng certainly posseses as much narrowmindeness and insecurities as probably any group on Earth. Whats funny is most sport climbers also trad, and many do it at a higher level than the average Trad Troll we see on these boards. You simply won't climb as well if you try to live by some "leader doesn't fall" religion.
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okinawatricam
Jan 28, 2004, 12:50 AM
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Let not get the leader doesn't fall attitude here. It is ok to fall on trad routes, actually most talented climbers do. During the 60's/70's the trad climber started front pointing. Climbing routes on preplace gear. How is that didferent the sport? Before you say preplaced gear doesn't constitute a lead, give Ron KAuk a call about Rastafilia (5.14 Yosemite Gear preplaced)
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goldencrowbar
Jan 28, 2004, 12:57 AM
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In reply to: In addition, I love how the general mentality of trad climber is somehow that they are bad ass. Of all the climbers I know, round up the top sport climber versus the top trad climbers and if you were to throw them into a brawl, the sport climber would freaking kick the living crap out of the trad climbers. Hmmm. I don't know. It would depend upon how much beans, onions, garlic and cheap beer the trad guy consumed just prior to brawl.
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okinawatricam
Jan 28, 2004, 1:05 AM
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In reply to: Hmmm. I don't know. It would depend upon how much beans, onions, garlic and cheap beer the trad guy consumed just prior to brawl. _________________ Why bolt it when you can toprope it? By the same accord, why lead it when you can top rope it?
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dirtineye
Jan 28, 2004, 1:05 AM
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In reply to: . In addition, I love how the general mentality of trad climber is somehow that they are bad ass. Of all the climbers I know, round up the top sport climber versus the top trad climbers and if you were to throw them into a brawl, the sport climber would freaking kick the living crap out of the trad climbers. That would be just like a bunch of stupid sport climbers, to show up at a gun fight with nothing but their fists. :P :P :P
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fracture
Jan 28, 2004, 1:18 AM
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In reply to: Let not get the leader doesn't fall attitude here. It is ok to fall on trad routes, actually most talented climbers do. I couldn't agree more. But most anti-sport traddies disagree....
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dirtineye
Jan 28, 2004, 1:19 AM
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In reply to: i daresay that, in the mind of a tradwhore, I thought you were an aid whore?
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dynoguy
Jan 28, 2004, 1:30 AM
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In reply to: Ok perhaps i'm just being crazy since i have never climbed trad or sport but how on earth are you comparing sport to bouldering. :? i can see where someone might compare trad to sport. but come on not to bouldering there has to be a big difference there. Dude they are almost identical. Think about it, Jason Kehl just bouldered a sport route. They are both about beautiful movement of stone, where as trad climbing has more of a sense of adventure.
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goldencrowbar
Jan 28, 2004, 1:32 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Hmmm. I don't know. It would depend upon how much beans, onions, garlic and cheap beer the trad guy consumed just prior to brawl. _________________ Why bolt it when you can toprope it? By the same accord, why lead it when you can top rope it? That is very true. Especially if there is no gear on said route.
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curt
Jan 28, 2004, 1:54 AM
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In reply to: Curt, when I was bouldering a lot in the mid-80s with Gill, Murray, Lew Hoffman, Kevin Bein and other talented climbers, I was also doing some of my hardest trad-leads. When I sport climb a lot it also helps my trad-climbing abilities. Climbing a lot of rock is going to help you become a better climber. Do you agree? Yes Bob, I would agree and said as much on the last page of this thread. I do think sport climbing, like gym climbing is excellent training for real rock climbing. This thread just kills me. Because I have ethics that are unassailable, I don't have to defend them. But, when I ask climbers who sport climb to explain why relaxing ethics in the sport is OK, I get from them some very interesting responses--which I guess is why I persist. "Well, we had to do that to increase difficulty standards." "Well the Europeans were doing it." etc. And, because I think anyone in a position of having to defend a lesser ethical standard feels (rightly so) uncomfortable, I also always hear... "You're living in the past" "You're arrogant" "You're old and bitter" and of course, Amber gets the additional slam....."what have you done in your short career" as though she is not entitled to an opinion that is not in synch with the lowest common denominator here. I guess I should be glad at least that you have enough respect for me that I have escaped a similar personal attack. The thing that I find most amusing really is that when the Federal Government decides to relax its perceived ethical position on the environment, all the same nitwits who call me bad names take up arms against the deplorable decay of our society. Sport climbers, no ethics and hypocritical at the same time--nice combination. Curt
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alpnclmbr1
Jan 28, 2004, 2:05 AM
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I am a firm believer that sport, trad, bouldering, alpine, and freesoloing are all part of being a climber. Funny thing that most of the people saying how complimentary sport is to trad are the same people who previously were advocating retro-bolting trad lines to make them into safe sport climbs. So you have one sporto that maintains that sport climbers make the best trad climbers. Yet in another thread he thought that it was unsafe to have trad routes around sport climbers because they would be likely to get hurt??? Then you have another one that maintains that trad climbing is climbing with preplaced gear and in light of that trad is really sport??? Then you have the one who doesn't recognize that sometimes it is all right to fall and sometimes it is not. Climbing has evolved equipment wise to the point where it is often all right to fall; this doesn't change the fact that sometimes it isn't all right to fall. This isn't a lesson that sport climbing is well suited to teach a newbie. As far as who I would feel more comfortable having watch my back, a sporto or a trad? Not even close. In the end it comes down to: a stupid sport climber can do just fine sport climbing. A stupid trad climber on the other hand is a dead trad climber. This distinction is basic to the ideals I value in climbing, and it is basic to why I would rather be a trad that sport climbs, than a sport climber that also trads.
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dirtineye
Jan 28, 2004, 2:09 AM
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In reply to: I am a firm believer that sport, trad, bouldering, alpine, and freesoloing are all part of being a climber. Funny thing that most of the people saying how complimentary sport is to trad are the same people who previously were advocating retro-bolting trad lines to make them into safe sport climbs. So you have one sporto that maintains that sport climbers make the best trad climbers. Yet in another thread he thought that it was unsafe to have trad routes around sport climbers because they would be likely to get hurt??? Then you have another one that maintains that trad climbing is climbing with preplaced gear and in light of that trad is really sport??? Then you have the one who doesn't recognize that sometimes it is all right to fall and sometimes it is not. Climbing has evolved equipment wise to the point where it is often all right to fall; this doesn't change the fact that sometimes it isn't all right to fall. This isn't a lesson that sport climbing is well suited to teach a newbie. As far as who I would feel more comfortable having watch my back, a sporto or a trad? Not even close. In the end it comes down to: a stupid sport climber can do just fine sport climbing. A stupid trad climber on the other hand is a dead trad climber. This distinction is basic to the ideals I value in climbing, and it is basic to why I would rather be a trad that sport climbs, than a sport climber that also trads. Hey now, don't confuse em with facts and logic.
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Deleted
Jan 28, 2004, 2:10 AM
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my only opinion is that the poster couldn't be more wrong. i have no way of backing up that opinion, but here, on rc.com, a sorry, sickly white turd like me can sit on the couch, fart, and be heard. hey america, do you like violence? do you want to see me stick quarter inch bolts through each one of my eyelids? so, here me once and for all internet dorks, the poster couldn't be more wrong!
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fracture
Jan 28, 2004, 2:18 AM
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In reply to: Then you have the one who doesn't recognize that sometimes it is all right to fall and sometimes it is not. Climbing has evolved equipment wise to the point where it is often all right to fall; this doesn't change the fact that sometimes it isn't all right to fall. This isn't a lesson that sport climbing is well suited to teach a newbie. Sport climbing emphasizes safe falling, but it does have situations where it "isn't alright to fall". Try falling on a typical sport climb while you have slack out to clip the second bolt. But the point I was making had nothing to do with situations where it is not alright to fall. It is that a sadly large number of traddies think it's never all right to fall. They'd rather climb something easy for them then get on something "above their limit", where they might fall.
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dirtineye
Jan 28, 2004, 2:21 AM
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In reply to: my only opinion is that the poster couldn't be more wrong. i have no way of backing up that opinion, but here, on rc.com, a sorry, sickly white turd like me can sit on the couch, fart, and be heard. hey america, do you like violence? do you want to see me stick quarter inch bolts through each one of my eyelids? so, here me once and for all internet dorks, the poster couldn't be more wrong! It's about time. This thread needs a good hijacking.
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goldencrowbar
Jan 28, 2004, 2:27 AM
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In reply to: It's about time. This thread needs a good hijacking. Well, did you ever try Groovin' in B Major?
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dirtineye
Jan 28, 2004, 2:30 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: It's about time. This thread needs a good hijacking. Well, did you ever try Groovin' in B Major? yeah, but I suck at water grooves man. I'm pathetic at those things. Give me face or give me death, which is wheat woud happen if I had to free solo a 100 foot water groove, unless it wsa one of thoes big grooves, like the ones up on sagee, where you cana grab those bits of quartz on the edges and scoot.
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bobd1953
Jan 28, 2004, 2:30 AM
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In reply to: and of course, Amber gets the additional slam....."what have you done in your short career" as though she is not entitled to an opinion that is not in synch with the lowest common denominator here. I guess I should be glad at least that you have enough respect for me that I have escaped a similar personal attack. That was not a personal attack but a simple question that she could reply to or not. Do you read the statement she made. I would hope that someone making such a strong statement would at least be prepared to defend it. Ethics are personal! You have a right to your opinions and a right to what you feel are personal and strong ethics. But, as you know ethics sometime fade as personal glory comes in play. Remember "Twilight Zone" in the "Gunks". I been around long enough to know that ethics in climbing, not matter what you call yourself (trad-sport-boulderer, big wall, etc...) have and will change over the years. What about boulderers who spread numerous pads around boulders and destroy plant life? What about big-wall climbers placing rivets and bolts on routes that were done without them. What about climbers in the Fisher Towers who slam in over-size bongs and pitons in expanding cracks in that area. It that behavior "bad ethics". Placing good bolts on a well-thought-out "sport route" is good ethics. Do you argee? I think you just don't like bolts or sport-climbers. That personal and that ok.
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alpnclmbr1
Jan 28, 2004, 2:33 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Then you have the one who doesn't recognize that sometimes it is all right to fall and sometimes it is not. Climbing has evolved equipment wise to the point where it is often all right to fall; this doesn't change the fact that sometimes it isn't all right to fall. This isn't a lesson that sport climbing is well suited to teach a newbie. Sport climbing emphasizes safe falling, but it does have situations where it "isn't alright to fall". Try falling on a typical sport climb while you have slack out to clip the second bolt. But the point I was making had nothing to do with situations where it is not alright to fall. It is that a sadly large number of traddies think it's never all right to fall. They'd rather climb something easy for them then get on something "above their limit", where they might fall. I haven't ever met a trad that felt it was unsafe to fall under any circumstances, well maybe one, he still climbs with a swami. There are many people who stay within the limits of their ability due to the nature of the routes they are climbing. J-tree is a good example of a place where a typical route is not particularly suited to falling on. As far as your point about there being places on a sport climb where it is not all right to fall. Of course that is true, yet at the same time many sport climbers object to having any dangerous sections on a route i.e. most ground up routes have numerous sections like this, people(sportos) seem to object to this and call it unsafe despite the fact that it is inherent in any bolted climb.
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bobd1953
Jan 28, 2004, 2:35 AM
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In reply to: . But, when I ask climbers who sport climb to explain why relaxing ethics in the sport is OK, I ask you the same question about trad-climbing. Top-roping, pre-placed gear, chipping and so on... are they not a relaxing of trad-climbing ethics?
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fracture
Jan 28, 2004, 2:44 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Then you have the one who doesn't recognize that sometimes it is all right to fall and sometimes it is not. Climbing has evolved equipment wise to the point where it is often all right to fall; this doesn't change the fact that sometimes it isn't all right to fall. This isn't a lesson that sport climbing is well suited to teach a newbie. Sport climbing emphasizes safe falling, but it does have situations where it "isn't alright to fall". Try falling on a typical sport climb while you have slack out to clip the second bolt. But the point I was making had nothing to do with situations where it is not alright to fall. It is that a sadly large number of traddies think it's never all right to fall. They'd rather climb something easy for them then get on something "above their limit", where they might fall. I haven't ever met a trad that felt it was unsafe to fall under any circumstances, well maybe one, he still climbs with a swami. Search the forums for "leader must not fall" :lol:
In reply to: There are many people who stay within the limits of their ability due to the nature of the routes they are climbing. J-tree is a good example of a place where a typical route is not particularly suited to falling on. Granted; but a different issue than the anti-falling religion.
In reply to: As far as your point about there being places on a sport climb where it is not all right to fall. Of course that is true, yet at the same time many sport climbers object to having any dangerous sections on a route i.e. most ground up routes have numerous sections like this, people(sportos) seem to object to this and call it unsafe despite the fact that it is inherent in any bolted climb. Not quite; what they object to (generally), is unnecessary sections where you should not fall. If no bolts could have been placed, or placing additional bolts would have made the situation worse (like you frequently see around the second bolt), it's understandable. But if you bolt it unsafe without a reason, you suck. :D
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