Really--is that what constitutes climbing? Anything that makes you stronger? Geez, I never really considered pull-ups and Nautilus workouts climbing before. Thanks for setting me straight.

while i would be willing to agree that bouldering and trad compliment each other, i daresay that, in the mind of a tradwhore, trad and sport are diabolically opposed, and there's not much that sportos can do about it - well, except maybe coming to terms with being called names or drop the lycra and chop some bolts.

if you were to throw them into a brawl, the sport climber would freaking kick the living crap out of the trad climbers.

The trad attitude towards sport climbng certainly posseses as much narrowmindeness and insecurities as probably any group on Earth. Whats funny is most sport climbers also trad, and many do it at a higher level than the average Trad Troll we see on these boards.

In addition, I love how the general mentality of trad climber is somehow that they are bad ass. Of all the climbers I know, round up the top sport climber versus the top trad climbers and if you were to throw them into a brawl, the sport climber would freaking kick the living crap out of the trad climbers.

Hmmm. I don't know. It would depend upon how much beans, onions, garlic and cheap beer the trad guy consumed just prior to brawl.
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Why bolt it when you can toprope it?

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In addition, I love how the general mentality of trad climber is somehow that they are bad ass. Of all the climbers I know, round up the top sport climber versus the top trad climbers and if you were to throw them into a brawl, the sport climber would freaking kick the living crap out of the trad climbers.

Let not get the leader doesn't fall attitude here. It is ok to fall on trad routes, actually most talented climbers do.

i daresay that, in the mind of a tradwhore,

Ok perhaps i'm just being crazy since i have never climbed trad or sport but how on earth are you comparing sport to bouldering. :? i can see where someone might compare trad to sport. but come on not to bouldering there has to be a big difference there.

By the same accord, why lead it when you can top rope it?

Curt, when I was bouldering a lot in the mid-80s with Gill, Murray, Lew Hoffman, Kevin Bein and other talented climbers, I was also doing some of my hardest trad-leads. When I sport climb a lot it also helps my trad-climbing abilities. Climbing a lot of rock is going to help you become a better climber. Do you agree?

I am a firm believer that sport, trad, bouldering, alpine, and freesoloing are all part of being a climber.

Funny thing that most of the people saying how complimentary sport is to trad are the same people who previously were advocating retro-bolting trad lines to make them into safe sport climbs.

So you have one sporto that maintains that sport climbers make the best trad climbers. Yet in another thread he thought that it was unsafe to have trad routes around sport climbers because they would be likely to get hurt???

Then you have another one that maintains that trad climbing is climbing with preplaced gear and in light of that trad is really sport???

Then you have the one who doesn't recognize that sometimes it is all right to fall and sometimes it is not. Climbing has evolved equipment wise to the point where it is often all right to fall; this doesn't change the fact that sometimes it isn't all right to fall. This isn't a lesson that sport climbing is well suited to teach a newbie.

As far as who I would feel more comfortable having watch my back, a sporto or a trad? Not even close.


In the end it comes down to: a stupid sport climber can do just fine sport climbing. A stupid trad climber on the other hand is a dead trad climber. This distinction is basic to the ideals I value in climbing, and it is basic to why I would rather be a trad that sport climbs, than a sport climber that also trads.

Then you have the one who doesn't recognize that sometimes it is all right to fall and sometimes it is not. Climbing has evolved equipment wise to the point where it is often all right to fall; this doesn't change the fact that sometimes it isn't all right to fall. This isn't a lesson that sport climbing is well suited to teach a newbie.

my only opinion is that the poster couldn't be more wrong.

i have no way of backing up that opinion, but here, on rc.com, a sorry, sickly white turd like me can sit on the couch, fart, and be heard. hey america, do you like violence? do you want to see me stick quarter inch bolts through each one of my eyelids?

so, here me once and for all internet dorks, the poster couldn't be more wrong!

It's about time. This thread needs a good hijacking.

Well, did you ever try Groovin' in B Major?

and of course, Amber gets the additional slam....."what have you done in your short career" as though she is not entitled to an opinion that is not in synch with the lowest common denominator here. I guess I should be glad at least that you have enough respect for me that I have escaped a similar personal attack.

Sport climbing emphasizes safe falling, but it does have situations where it "isn't alright to fall". Try falling on a typical sport climb while you have slack out to clip the second bolt.

But the point I was making had nothing to do with situations where it is not alright to fall. It is that a sadly large number of traddies think it's never all right to fall. They'd rather climb something easy for them then get on something "above their limit", where they might fall.

. But, when I ask climbers who sport climb to explain why relaxing ethics in the sport is OK,

I haven't ever met a trad that felt it was unsafe to fall under any circumstances, well maybe one, he still climbs with a swami.

There are many people who stay within the limits of their ability due to the nature of the routes they are climbing. J-tree is a good example of a place where a typical route is not particularly suited to falling on.

As far as your point about there being places on a sport climb where it is not all right to fall. Of course that is true, yet at the same time many sport climbers object to having any dangerous sections on a route i.e. most ground up routes have numerous sections like this, people(sportos) seem to object to this and call it unsafe despite the fact that it is inherent in any bolted climb.