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whatsupdoc
Nov 30, 2004, 1:58 AM
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jt512
Nov 30, 2004, 2:18 AM
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In reply to: Had a little discussion with a friend of mine who's a strong sport climber, where I am a terribly weak and pitiful trad climber. Anyways, we got to talking about goals blah blah blah and I was arguing that it was more difficult to onsight 5.9 anywhere, anytime, any style of climbing than it is to onsight 5.12a sport/face routes. I'm talking 5.9 trad, sport, offwidths, finger cracks, hand cracks, slab, steep face, runout, bolt protected, single pitch, 1000' off the deck, alpine rock, etc etc. I also thought that 5.9 anytime opened more doors than 5.12 sport, but he disagreed. What do you all think? Am I crazy like a crusty old hardman (which I certainly am not)? I mean there's lots of grades between 5.9 and 5.12...
On-sighting 5.12a sport is way harder than onsighting 5.9 anything.
-Jay
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jebel_andi
Nov 30, 2004, 2:21 AM
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I definetly have more respect for the person that can climb at a high grade in any style then the person that can do a higher graded sport climb after working the rought. However often enough that 5.9 anytime climber is the same person that sport climbs the 5.12
It is easier to b*tch about other styles of climbing being stupid then it is to try every thing. I for one have more respect for the well rounded climber.
*onsiting a 5.12 has got to be harder though. A comparison of 5.9 any time and a 5.12 redpoint might be more valid.
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grimpiperx
Nov 30, 2004, 2:23 AM
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Well by definition a 5.12 is going to have harder moves.........I see where you are going, offwidths are no fun, cracks require technique, and the other stuff is hard too but if it is a 5.9 offwidth it cant be to bad of an offwidth and a 5.9 crack has to be sized quite nicely. I would agree i guess that doing a 5.9 in any sort of condition opens more doors. But i dont think it is harder.........
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johnclimbrok
Nov 30, 2004, 2:24 AM
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i'll give you some credit for the offwidth remark but other than that...seriously?
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j_ung
Nov 30, 2004, 2:24 AM
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In reply to: On-sighting 5.12a sport is way harder than onsighting 5.9 anything. -Jay
I agree with this, but I'd still rather be the 5.9 anywhere/anytime climber.
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debaser655321
Nov 30, 2004, 2:29 AM
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well, I've always been pretty damn excited when I've red pointed 5.12a (hands down rare) sport and would be deeply depressed if I fell any 5.9 trad. . . with that said.
I did get my ass kicked on 5.8 hand crack at indian creak, but even still.
your friend is right.
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reno
Nov 30, 2004, 2:42 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: On-sighting 5.12a sport is way harder than onsighting 5.9 anything. -Jay I agree with this, but I'd still rather be the 5.9 anywhere/anytime climber.
Ditto.
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crackmd
Nov 30, 2004, 2:47 AM
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Both are worthy goals. It seems to me that if you can climb hard sport then with some goal setting and dedication you have the capability to move through the crack grades. Often times hard sport climbers need to go 2 to 3 number grades below their sport redpoint limit and for this reason they lose interest in pursuing crackclimbing. On the flip side, a solid 5.9 climber who tries nothing harder will have little chance of sending 5.12. It is rare that 5.9 of any kind offers up the endurance element that one needs to train for to climb 5.12. You guys may be able to think of an exception and I don't doubt that there is one, but in general in order to climb 5.12 you need to train on 5.12. I think that if your post was 5.11 anytime vs. 5.12 sport then that would be much more difficult to choose.
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jt512
Nov 30, 2004, 2:50 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: On-sighting 5.12a sport is way harder than onsighting 5.9 anything. -Jay I agree with this, but I'd still rather be the 5.9 anywhere/anytime climber.
If you can onsight 5.12a sport, you could to climb 5.9 anywhere/anytime, maybe after a very short period of crack training, if you'd never done any.
-Jay
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jt512
Nov 30, 2004, 2:59 AM
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In reply to: And yeah, the 5.12a onsight means you're more like a 5.12+/5.13- type of climber....
Exactly.
In reply to: Redpoint is probably more valid.
That is a more realistic comparison. Nowadays, climbers redpoint 12a more quickly than they become solid 5.9 trad climbers, but it's hard to say how much of that is due to training. It's easy to sport climb or boulder every weekend and train in the gym a couple days a week. That can get you to a sport 12a redpoint in a couple of years. I would imagine that if you could trad climb 4 days a week, you'd get to be a solid 5.9 trad climber in a similar amount of time, but how many trad climbers can dedicate that much time to trad climbing.
-Jay
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reno
Nov 30, 2004, 3:01 AM
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In reply to: If you can onsight 5.12a sport, you could to climb 5.9 anywhere/anytime, maybe after a very short period of crack training, if you'd never done any.
I don't buy this, Jay.
Took a pal who is strong at .11+ sport lines, has a few .12a/.12b routes under his belt. Would have more if he wasn't nursing a broken carpal bone back to health (his first day outdoors after the cast came off, he floated several .10d lines,) and he admits to not being at all comfortable on 5.9 trad lines.
Personally, I'd rather be able to climb any 5.9 in the world under any conditions than be able to climb 5.12a.
But that's just me. YMMV.
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philbox
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Nov 30, 2004, 3:06 AM
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I can onsight 5.9 anytime anywhere but I have huge problems onsighting 5.12 sport. My ethic though is to never fall off anything anytime ever. That holds back my development as a sport climber. My onsightedness is equal whether it be trad, sport or whatever. I treat all my climbing the same.
I`m one of those curious people who just love to climb and the distinctions between sport, trad, aid, bouldering, gym is definitely blurry. They are all good and I enjoy them all immensely. As I have said many times I haven`t gotten on a climb that I didn`t enjoy and that goes for face, slab, crack, offwidth, whatever. It`s all good. Silly twisted soul that I am. If I`m going up I am in heaven. :lol:
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organic
Nov 30, 2004, 3:18 AM
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If you are climbing 5.12 sport you better be able to climb 5.9 anywhere anytime. Yeah yeah yeah I am sure someone wo climbs 5.12 sport once slipped off of a 5.9 but seriously, if you are climbing 5.12 you should be onsighting most 5.10's much less 5.9. One more thing I think once you start climbing high 5.11-5.12 it opens up a whole new world of climbing.
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jt512
Nov 30, 2004, 3:19 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: If you can onsight 5.12a sport, you could to climb 5.9 anywhere/anytime, maybe after a very short period of crack training, if you'd never done any. I don't buy this, Jay. Took a pal who is strong at .11+ sport lines, has a few .12a/.12b routes under his belt. Would have more if he wasn't nursing a broken carpal bone back to health (his first day outdoors after the cast came off, he floated several .10d lines,) and he admits to not being at all comfortable on 5.9 trad lines.
Well, they'd have to have an interest in climbing trad. If they're scared above gear or haven't learned basic gear placement and anchor building skills, then they won't be able trad climb anything. However, the difference between having redpointed a couple of sport 12a's or b's and being able to consistently onsight sport 12a is huge. The rare sport climber who can consistently onsight 12a would be solid at 13a or b in the sense that they would be redpointing routes at that level in only a few tries, and they would probably be pushing into 13+. This is one step below elite-level climbing. I think they could manage 5.9 offwidth, if for some reason they had an interest in doing so.
-Jay
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jt512
Nov 30, 2004, 3:23 AM
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In reply to: I can onsight 5.9 anytime anywhere but I have huge problems onsighting 5.12 sport.
And I can almost onsight 5.9 anytime anywhere, even though I do little trad climbing anymore; and my best sport onsight is only 5.11d, which is a long way away from being able to consistently onsight sport 5.12a.
-Jay
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jakedatc
Nov 30, 2004, 3:30 AM
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I would have to think that there are enough face holds and such that would allow a 5.12 sport climber to cheat the system and get around alot of the technical aspects of those other types.. sure they'd have to fiddle with gear but they should be able to find good stances to deal with the extra time spent figure out placements
disclaimer.. ive only been on 2 .12 sport routes and no splitters or OW (thank god)
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kalcario
Nov 30, 2004, 3:46 AM
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* The rare sport climber who can consistently onsight 12a would be solid at 13a or b in the sense that they would be redpointing routes at that level in only a few tries, and they would probably be pushing into 13+.*
This is a little off, I'd say 12+ in a few tries if you can do 12a onsight consistently is more realistic, 13a-b in a few tries would be more like 12c onsight level
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alpnclmbr1
Nov 30, 2004, 4:00 AM
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I think you are forgetting about a little thing called fear.
Most 12a on-sight sport climbers are not 5.9 anywhere type climbers.
Most 12 sport climbers will get spanked by a true run-out 5.9 off-width.
And then there's the 5.9 chimney . . .
The Steck-Salathe is never going to be easy.
J-crack at lumpy. 5.9 with an unprotected 5.8, if you go the right way.
The Waterchute.
5.9's also tend to have the interesting feature of varying in actual difficulty from 5.7 to 10d. (Sheepshead for example)
Being a 12 on-sight sport climber is a good pre-req for doing some 5.9's. It can really help. But don't think that makes it a guaranteed send, because it doesn't.
Rating systems tend to treat everything like a sport climb. On the relative scale of things. Climbing 12a sport is overall much easier then climbing a hard 5.9.
ps. and then there is routefinding
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slablizard
Nov 30, 2004, 4:04 AM
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Well strenght - wise if you can OS 12 you can stay longer on that .9 than the .9 guy could ever stay on a 12.
If you start throwing in other aspects like routefinding is down more to experience and intuition and mental control than physical strenght.
Of course I'll rather be the 12 climber.
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ambler
Nov 30, 2004, 4:11 AM
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In reply to: If you can onsight 5.12a sport, you could to climb 5.9 anywhere/anytime, maybe after a very short period of crack training, if you'd never done any. |
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kalcario
Nov 30, 2004, 4:15 AM
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* Climbing 12a sport is overall much easier then climbing a hard 5.9.*
For this to make sense, your 5.9 anything guy could float 12a sport. If all you're talking about is which is "harder", then put your 5.9 trad anything guy on a 12a top rope, and the 12a sport onsighter on a 5.9 anything on top rope. You'll see which is actually "harder" pretty quick.
Of course, take the top rope away and the trad 5.9 anything guy will likely (maybe) do better on the 12a sport than vice-versa, but that doesn't make the 5.9 "harder".
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petsfed
Nov 30, 2004, 4:41 AM
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In reply to: Most 12 sport climbers will get spanked by a true run-out 5.9 off-width.
Wait, what?
Given, there aren't that many commercially available cams in the appropriate size, in strict technicality all offwidths are thoroughly protectable. I can make Supercrack of the Desert runout if I choose not to bring the appropriate protection. Doesn't make the climb intrinsically run-out though.
Offwidths, by the way, are the truest graded climbs on the planet because it is impossible to simply power through them. If you cannot do the 5.9 moves necessary to do the 5.9 offwidth, it doesn't matter if you've onsighted the gnarliest face climb on the planet. Without some technique (sometimes quite a bit), offwidths are impossible. With enough strength, I could probably do well in Rifle. That is, I'd get stopped at a much higher grade than if I stuck with offwidths.
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rrrADAM
Nov 30, 2004, 4:45 AM
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I can onsight at about .10c anything, but have yet to redpoint a .12a yet... Got one in just one fall, but that's still not an RP. So I'd have to go with .12a Sport is way harder than .9 Anything, even .10 anything... Although there are some stout .10s at the Needles, Ca and the Gunks, NY.
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alpnclmbr1
Nov 30, 2004, 4:46 AM
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Which is harder, Fear and Loathing or Epinephrine?
Which is harder, a well protected 12 sport climb or a slimy 5.9 move 20 feet off of an old 1/4 incher that is backed up with rp's.
The skill set to safely climb an old school classic 5.9 is more involved and time consuming to develop. More work, takes longer. = Harder
Technical skill and endurance are relatively trivial skills.(easy to develop) I met a guy who was on-sighting 12c his first time on real rock.(after warming up)
The trad equivalent of that guy took 2 years to on-sight 12b. Most people take 4 or 5 years to develop a good trad head.
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