We old codgers learned it all (and by and large continue to learn it all) by ourselves. No instructors to blame for our own stupidity.

And that's the way it ought to be. Personal responsibility is central to climbing. If something goes wrong on your watch, it is your fault (even if it isn't). Deal with it.

It is no one's fault but your own, not the gym that provided an atmosphere of inattention and an illusion of safety, not the instructor who didn't give you the whole story and neglected to move in with you for the next ten years to keep tabs on your progress, not the leader who trusted you when they shouldn't have.

Someone put their life in your hands and you fumbled the pass. You will have to live with this, and you better not start looking around for someone else to point the finger at, because there is no one but yourself to blame.

Harsh? Part of the problem is that the general atmosphere isn't harsh enough. People need to hear this loud and clear. This ain't tiddlywinks. It isn't the NBA finals or Word Cup Soccer or the US Open either. In those things, if you lose, you go home and try harder next year. When you "lose" in climbing, someone might go home in a goddamn box.

I'm beginning to get nostalgic for the days of the hip belay. The belayer knew they were in for it. No gadget of unknown frictional properties that supposedly works with everying from dental floss to tugboat hawser, no non-autolocking autolocking device that will work even if the belayer is asleep but of course really won't, no "hands-free" device that can't really be used with hands free, in short, no technological substitute for continual attention and some very simple skills.

One of the reasons climbing is becoming so popular is that the various industries involved in promoting it manage to continually downplay the dangers, to the point that a casual attitude is easy to adopt. Look at the "you're gonna die" line, which has become a pervasive joke line in internet forums. Ha ha.

The warnings are, of course, in the fine print, but they get about as much attention as the conditions-of-use documents we routinely agree to with a click when we install new software.

But none of this excuses in inexcusable. That rope in your hands is somebody's lifeline. You sure as hell better know what you are doing with it.

Dude, that happens every day. They're called REI salespeople.

On another note, the answer is somewhere between being responsible and having no responsibility whatsoever. There is NO teacher or instructor anywhere in the world in any subject matter that is expected to guide a student entirely through their learning. That is just unrealistic. The fact of the matter is that it is a student's responsibility to learn. Should the teacher provide quality instruction? Absolutely! But, in the end, no matter how qualified and excellent a teacher is, some people just can't learn certain things. Sometimes a student may be doing fine under supervision, but when asked to recall it later has trouble. You can't blame a teacher for that.

This is a terrible tragedy, for sure, but outside of obvious negligence, you cannot blame instruction.

Josh

Hmmm, I´d have though a guy like you would have been a little more cautious with his choice of words! That you´ve never heard of anyone being dropped is merely your sampling bias....

We old codgers learned it all (and by and large continue to learn it all) by ourselves. No instructors to blame for our own stupidity.

And that's the way it ought to be. Personal responsibility is central to climbing. If something goes wrong on your watch, it is your fault (even if it isn't). Deal with it.

It is no one's fault but your own, not the gym that provided an atmosphere of inattention and an illusion of safety, not the instructor who didn't give you the whole story and neglected to move in with you for the next ten years to keep tabs on your progress, not the leader who trusted you when they shouldn't have.

Someone put their life in your hands and you fumbled the pass. You will have to live with this, and you better not start looking around for someone else to point the finger at, because there is no one but yourself to blame.

Harsh? Part of the problem is that the general atmosphere isn't harsh enough. People need to hear this loud and clear. This ain't tiddlywinks. It isn't the NBA finals or Word Cup Soccer or the US Open either. In those things, if you lose, you go home and try harder next year. When you "lose" in climbing, someone might go home in a goddamn box.

I'm beginning to get nostalgic for the days of the hip belay. The belayer knew they were in for it. No gadget of unknown frictional properties that supposedly works with everying from dental floss to tugboat hawser, no non-autolocking autolocking device that will work even if the belayer is asleep but of course really won't, no "hands-free" device that can't really be used with hands free, in short, no technological substitute for continual attention and some very simple skills.

One of the reasons climbing is becoming so popular is that the various industries involved in promoting it manage to continually downplay the dangers, to the point that a casual attitude is easy to adopt. Look at the "you're gonna die" line, which has become a pervasive joke line in internet forums. Ha ha.

The warnings are, of course, in the fine print, but they get about as much attention as the conditions-of-use documents we routinely agree to with a click when we install new software.

But none of this excuses in inexcusable. That rope in your hands is somebody's lifeline. You sure as hell better know what you are doing with it.

if you pull a n00b off the street and give him a climbing gear and ask him to manage it then walk away. did you just walked away from a climber and based on your logic, you still think that was his responsibility to find out for himself ?

You guys love to blame the problem on some one else cause you like to see things in black and white.

Rgold really ? You wish climbing gear came with no instructions ? You're like that angry old man who wants children off his grass. Personal responsibility is a given especially because who the hell care whose fault is it if you or a friend gets seriously injured. Having said that you can have a legitimate discussion about the safety of various belay devices. It's nice to preach about users causing accidents, not gear, but reality has more shades than most people on this thread make it seem like.

Rgold really ? You wish climbing gear came with no instructions ? You're like that angry old man who wants children off his grass. Personal responsibility is a given especially because who the hell care whose fault is it if you or a friend gets seriously injured. Having said that you can have a legitimate discussion about the safety of various belay devices. It's nice to preach about users causing accidents, not gear, but reality has more shades than most people on this thread make it seem like.

Rgold really ? You wish climbing gear came with no instructions ?

who the hell care whose fault is it if you or a friend gets seriously injured.

Having said that you can have a legitimate discussion about the safety of various belay devices. It's nice to preach about users causing accidents, not gear, but reality has more shades than most people on this thread make it seem like.

You're like that angry old man who wants children off his grass.

jomagam wrote:Rgold really ? You wish climbing gear came with no instructions ?

If I said anything related to that, it is that people don't attend to the instructions that are provided and ignore the manufacturers warnings.

If you basically don't know how to use it, haven't practiced with it, haven't thought about and worked through its idiosyncrasies, and then you literally take someone else's life in your hands, then I don't think anyone should be looking around for external sources of responsibility for the consequences.

You guys love to blame the problem on some one else cause you like to see things in black and white.

if a student fails and kills some one , is always his problem but no dudes. if a child goes and become pregnant in 13, that should be her problem right ?

Responsibility does not end once you pass the belay device to a inexperienced climber. you need to make sure that this child can apply brake, steers the wheel and controls the entire thing before you walk away. This is call teaching. you either give it full or you do not.

The instructions and warnings are a legality, or am I wrong? IE the manufacturers put them there to avoid sue-age.


Honest question. How does one practice with, say a cinch, to become competent with it? It seems that even in practice, you are going to be putting someone at risk, no? I think that is why I stick with the ATC....its what I learned to belay on, so why change it up...

Honest question. How does one practice with, say a cinch, to become competent with it? It seems that even in practice, you are going to be putting someone at risk, no? I think that is why I stick with the ATC....its what I learned to belay on, so why change it up...

Learn your craft, and you can play on my lawn all you want. Otherwise, the angry old man is gonna yell at you.

Awesome! With all due respect, I'm taking this.

I think that is why I stick with the ATC....its what I learned to belay on, so why change it up...

You learn the same way you learned how to use your ATC

I switched a few years ago. I started by belaying with it on easy routes with little risk of falling to get the mechanics down. I read the instructions and watched Mal's video for tips. I also PM'd Mal himself and asked him questions.

how did you learn to drive a car. You start slowly with instruction, drive cautiously, eventually you become comfortable. Once you start rolling you and people around you are at risk.

The failures in this accident would have happened with ANY device. The guy didn't have his hand on the brake. #1 rule of belaying .. broken. User error. period.

The current issue of Panorama (the DAV magazine, 3.2010 http://cms.alpenverein.de/...=6589&showfile=1) .

Thanks JimTitt. This article explains clearly in plain German that one cannot hold the Cinch vertically. It is dangerous because in this case the rope goes straight through the device toward the climber without meeting any friction. Those people who are claiming to hold it upright during the lead belay are endangering their climbers. You can hold it vertically only when belaying on a TR.

Therefore, as I have explained previously in this thread, the Cinch must be tilted way to the left with its opening away from the direction of the rope. I hold the device flat on its side with the colored panel up. I explained this to the belayer involved during my instruction. By teaching him I was hoping to make him my permanent climbing partner, therefore, I took my instructions seriously. It was not only about loading and holding the Cinch, but also about feeding the appropriate amount of slack, keeping rope away from the climber, etc.

I tried to arrange a climbing trip together with him several times after that, but we always had a schedule conflict. He climbed for half a year with other people. I have no information on whether he used the Cinch correctly after our session or used incorrect technique.

When I bought a Cinch, I hated it at first. It locked the rope when I was feeding it out, and I practiced with it for two weeks during which time I found that pinching it with the index finger and a thumb and holding it flat on a side is the safest mode of operation. Then I tried it in the gym with a climber. Caught several controlled falls. Then I took it outside. After several months of practice, I felt that, when used correctly, the Cinch is easier to use and safer than grigri. Now I must also agree that the Cinch is less forgiving when the belayer is not following the instructions precisely. In particular, holding it vertically, or cupping it with the hand is plainly dangerous.

Perhaps, it will make Mal feel better if I tell that at least on one occasion the Cinch saved climber's life in a situation when an ATC would have failed. I was belaying a climber on toprope on a steep climb. I was standing not directly under the chains, but closer to the wall. There was a large boulder right behind me. At about 60 ft above the ground my climber asked me to take. I was pulled back and hit the boulder with the back of my head. I saw sparks and almost fainted or perhaps I did faint. I was still holding the breaking end of the rope, but not firmly enough to break the fall. If I were using an ATC, there would have been a dead body on the ground. But the Cinch locked the rope and held. The Grigri would have done the same.

Look closely at the pictures. The mag is advocating to flip the cinch upside down and then using it horizontally, not the same as your case, notice how it causes the belay loop to twitch.

This article explains clearly in plain German that one cannot hold the Cinch vertically. It is dangerous because in this case the rope goes straight through the device toward the climber without meeting any friction. Those people who are claiming to hold it upright during the lead belay are endangering their climbers. You can hold it vertically only when belaying on a TR.