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skiclimb
Jun 14, 2010, 5:50 PM
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This thread has officially reinforced my opinion that mankind has only survived and flourished due to the direct intervention of a benevolent God.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Jun 14, 2010, 5:54 PM)
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csproul
Jun 14, 2010, 5:52 PM
Post #77 of 190
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moose_droppings wrote: Good luck taking in slack when redirecting the brake strand.
moose_droppings wrote: I don't find it hard at all to lock off in high friction mode at all. Though I've yet to lower dead weight into space the way you've suggested, I can see the advantages for the redirect then. It would be simple enough after locking off to just clip the strand to a piece of the anchor and lower.
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jt512
Jun 14, 2010, 5:54 PM
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hafilax wrote: robdotcalm wrote: hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. maybe a miss understanding. As has been discussed in other threads, you can't provide your second a decent belay with any of these silly "Guide Mode" type devices, due to the difficulty of giving them slack quickly. Shouldn't be much of an issue with a grigri, though. Jay It's not hard to give slack through an autoblock if it's asked for before weighting the rope. You just pull on the rope biner while yarding out the rope much in the same way you would hold the cam open on a GriGri. Which means that if the 2nd falls and needs slack he's not going to get it. . r.c That's not slack, it's lowering. Depending on the anchor it's not that difficult to lower someone. It can be as easy as putting a biner in the release hole (R^3 or atc-guide) and pulling up while controlling the rope with the other hand. It can be as difficult as having to setup a redirect system that pulls up on it. 
You cannot possibly give a quality belay to your second if shenanigans like this are required to give slack. If I ever see a Reverso-3 or an ATC-Guide on a potential partner's harness, I'm walking away. If you want to belay off the anchor, use a fucking munter hitch. The climbing equipment industry has clearly sold the n00b segment of the climbing community a bill of goods with this "guide mode" nonsense.
Jay
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hafilax
Jun 14, 2010, 5:57 PM
Post #79 of 190
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I find it interesting that Petzl seems much more cautious about they're recommendations for using the R^3, at least than I remember. They recommend always having a hand on the brake which goes against the common belief that it's a hands free device. It's also interesting that with 2 climbers, if one is locked off they other may not autoblock. This makes sense since the device has to be able to pivot freely in order to lock up. In most cases you can get away with it since both climbers will be on the same line but there are certainly situations where you have to be careful.
I'll definitely be more cautious using it with 2 seconds.
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hafilax
Jun 14, 2010, 6:02 PM
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jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: robdotcalm wrote: hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. maybe a miss understanding. As has been discussed in other threads, you can't provide your second a decent belay with any of these silly "Guide Mode" type devices, due to the difficulty of giving them slack quickly. Shouldn't be much of an issue with a grigri, though. Jay It's not hard to give slack through an autoblock if it's asked for before weighting the rope. You just pull on the rope biner while yarding out the rope much in the same way you would hold the cam open on a GriGri. Which means that if the 2nd falls and needs slack he's not going to get it. . r.c That's not slack, it's lowering. Depending on the anchor it's not that difficult to lower someone. It can be as easy as putting a biner in the release hole (R^3 or atc-guide) and pulling up while controlling the rope with the other hand. It can be as difficult as having to setup a redirect system that pulls up on it. [image]http://www.petzl.com/files/all/en/Products/comparaison/releasing_reverso3.gif[/image] You cannot possibly give a quality belay to your second if shenanigans like this are required to give slack. If I ever see a Reverso-3 or an ATC-Guide on a potential partner's harness, I'm walking away. If you want to belay off the anchor, use a fucking munter hitch. The climbing equipment industry has clearly sold the n00b segment of the climbing community a bill of goods with this "guide mode" nonsense. Jay 
Like I said, most of the time you can just pull on the biner that the rope runs over or just pull on the release tab with your hand. It's not that much more complicated than pulling on the GriGri handle.
Too many people use these devices off the anchor without understanding how to use them but that's no more the devices fault than people getting dropped using the beloved GriGri.
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jt512
Jun 14, 2010, 6:13 PM
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hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: robdotcalm wrote: hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. maybe a miss understanding. As has been discussed in other threads, you can't provide your second a decent belay with any of these silly "Guide Mode" type devices, due to the difficulty of giving them slack quickly. Shouldn't be much of an issue with a grigri, though. Jay It's not hard to give slack through an autoblock if it's asked for before weighting the rope. You just pull on the rope biner while yarding out the rope much in the same way you would hold the cam open on a GriGri. Which means that if the 2nd falls and needs slack he's not going to get it. . r.c That's not slack, it's lowering. Depending on the anchor it's not that difficult to lower someone. It can be as easy as putting a biner in the release hole (R^3 or atc-guide) and pulling up while controlling the rope with the other hand. It can be as difficult as having to setup a redirect system that pulls up on it. [image]http://www.petzl.com/files/all/en/Products/comparaison/releasing_reverso3.gif[/image] You cannot possibly give a quality belay to your second if shenanigans like this are required to give slack. If I ever see a Reverso-3 or an ATC-Guide on a potential partner's harness, I'm walking away. If you want to belay off the anchor, use a fucking munter hitch. The climbing equipment industry has clearly sold the n00b segment of the climbing community a bill of goods with this "guide mode" nonsense. Jay Now you're starting to sound like edge. How old are you again? Like I said, most of the time you can just pull on the biner that the rope runs over or just pull on the release tab with your hand. It's not that much more complicated than pulling on the GriGri handle.
What you guys don't get is that once there is any tension on the second, you've already blown it as a belayer. If your second does step down into tension, you need to instantly release it or else your second is aid climbing the pitch. All this autblocking nonsense makes giving that type of belay (ie a good one) nearly impossible. If you want to belay off the anchor, the solution is to use a munter hitch.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 14, 2010, 6:15 PM)
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hafilax
Jun 14, 2010, 6:32 PM
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jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: robdotcalm wrote: hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. maybe a miss understanding. As has been discussed in other threads, you can't provide your second a decent belay with any of these silly "Guide Mode" type devices, due to the difficulty of giving them slack quickly. Shouldn't be much of an issue with a grigri, though. Jay It's not hard to give slack through an autoblock if it's asked for before weighting the rope. You just pull on the rope biner while yarding out the rope much in the same way you would hold the cam open on a GriGri. Which means that if the 2nd falls and needs slack he's not going to get it. . r.c That's not slack, it's lowering. Depending on the anchor it's not that difficult to lower someone. It can be as easy as putting a biner in the release hole (R^3 or atc-guide) and pulling up while controlling the rope with the other hand. It can be as difficult as having to setup a redirect system that pulls up on it. [image]http://www.petzl.com/files/all/en/Products/comparaison/releasing_reverso3.gif[/image] You cannot possibly give a quality belay to your second if shenanigans like this are required to give slack. If I ever see a Reverso-3 or an ATC-Guide on a potential partner's harness, I'm walking away. If you want to belay off the anchor, use a fucking munter hitch. The climbing equipment industry has clearly sold the n00b segment of the climbing community a bill of goods with this "guide mode" nonsense. Jay Now you're starting to sound like edge. How old are you again? Like I said, most of the time you can just pull on the biner that the rope runs over or just pull on the release tab with your hand. It's not that much more complicated than pulling on the GriGri handle. What you guys don't get is that once there is any tension on the second, you've already blown it as a belayer. If your second does step down into tension, you need to instantly release it or else your second is aid climbing the pitch. All this autblocking nonsense makes giving that type of belay (ie a good one) nearly impossible. If you want to belay off the anchor, the solution is to use a munter hitch. Jay
Even giving a reasonably slack belay can be next to impossible with rope friction and corners that make verbal communication difficult. The belayer can have very little feel for what the climber is doing. The leader has to fight this as rope drag leading and belaying but the second has no control over it.
Like I keep saying, I'm not advocating autoblocking and I think it should be used less. I just don't agree with your arguments to completely dismiss its use.
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csproul
Jun 14, 2010, 6:35 PM
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jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: robdotcalm wrote: hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. maybe a miss understanding. As has been discussed in other threads, you can't provide your second a decent belay with any of these silly "Guide Mode" type devices, due to the difficulty of giving them slack quickly. Shouldn't be much of an issue with a grigri, though. Jay It's not hard to give slack through an autoblock if it's asked for before weighting the rope. You just pull on the rope biner while yarding out the rope much in the same way you would hold the cam open on a GriGri. Which means that if the 2nd falls and needs slack he's not going to get it. . r.c That's not slack, it's lowering. Depending on the anchor it's not that difficult to lower someone. It can be as easy as putting a biner in the release hole (R^3 or atc-guide) and pulling up while controlling the rope with the other hand. It can be as difficult as having to setup a redirect system that pulls up on it. [image]http://www.petzl.com/files/all/en/Products/comparaison/releasing_reverso3.gif[/image] You cannot possibly give a quality belay to your second if shenanigans like this are required to give slack. If I ever see a Reverso-3 or an ATC-Guide on a potential partner's harness, I'm walking away. If you want to belay off the anchor, use a fucking munter hitch. The climbing equipment industry has clearly sold the n00b segment of the climbing community a bill of goods with this "guide mode" nonsense. Jay Now you're starting to sound like edge. How old are you again? Like I said, most of the time you can just pull on the biner that the rope runs over or just pull on the release tab with your hand. It's not that much more complicated than pulling on the GriGri handle. What you guys don't get is that once there is any tension on the second, you've already blown it as a belayer. If your second does step down into tension, you need to instantly release it or else your second is aid climbing the pitch. All this autblocking nonsense makes giving that type of belay (ie a good one) nearly impossible. If you want to belay off the anchor, the solution is to use a munter hitch. Jay  In the realm of long multipitch/alpine climbing (what these devices were really intended for), I think that a point of tension is the least of the climber's worries in these situations. Not that you couldn't come up with multiple other reasons not to use these devices.
(This post was edited by csproul on Jun 14, 2010, 6:36 PM)
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ptlong
Jun 14, 2010, 6:36 PM
Post #84 of 190
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hafilax wrote: Freeing gear climbs on top rope on multipitch is just a silly concept since it will generally be blown by a stuck piece. You do what you can to climb cleanly but it's not a priority.
Speak for yourself.
There may well be belayers who can manage those autoblocking devices well but my experience has been that I always get a lousy belay from them. Too tight, and no give when I move down. When I meet a new partner and he or she has one of those, I cringe.
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jt512
Jun 14, 2010, 6:57 PM
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hafilax wrote: Freeing gear climbs on top rope on multipitch is just a silly concept since it will generally be blown by a stuck piece. You do what you can to climb cleanly but it's not a priority.
If your seconds' free climbs are "generally" blown by a stuck piece, then your seconds generally don't know how to clean gear or you generally don't know how to place it.
Jay
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psprings
Jun 14, 2010, 6:58 PM
Post #86 of 190
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Munter hitches directly off the anchor while belaying from above are awesome. ~2.5Kns of holding power, easy to pay rope out as needed.
Probably the best thing about it is that the weight of the breaking side of the rope is hanging down, so unlike using a regular ATC style device off of the anchors and pulling the rope UP to break, the Munter sets you up so that the break end works with gravity.
Something to try if you haven't before. You may find that you like it better than autoblocking devices.
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hafilax
Jun 14, 2010, 7:28 PM
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jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: Freeing gear climbs on top rope on multipitch is just a silly concept since it will generally be blown by a stuck piece. You do what you can to climb cleanly but it's not a priority. If your seconds' free climbs are "generally" blown by a stuck piece, then your seconds generally don't know how to clean gear or you generally don't know how to place it. Jay
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jt512
Jun 14, 2010, 7:48 PM
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hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: Freeing gear climbs on top rope on multipitch is just a silly concept since it will generally be blown by a stuck piece. You do what you can to climb cleanly but it's not a priority. If your seconds' free climbs are "generally" blown by a stuck piece, then your seconds generally don't know how to clean gear or you generally don't know how to place it. Jay OK it wasn't really a good argument BUT YOU'RE STILL TOPROPING.
So?
Jay
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reno
Jun 14, 2010, 8:19 PM
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jt512 wrote: I don't see how this could be safe, except on flat ground.
^^ There's the kicker.
Do this quite often when ice climbing in Ouray, for example, where the top of the climb is generally flat. My harness to a BFT with some spare 7 or 8 mm cord. Anchor is any combination of trees and ice screws and bolts, equalized as best I can, and tied to a powerpoint. Reverso goes on that, and ends up laying flat on the ground. Then I belay in "non-autoblock" mode. Easy to catch a fall by the second, easy to pay out slack as necessary, easy to escape the belay and lock the follower off with an overhand knot...
What am I missing?
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epoch
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Jun 14, 2010, 8:22 PM
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reno wrote: jt512 wrote: I don't see how this could be safe, except on flat ground. ^^ There's the kicker. Do this quite often when ice climbing in Ouray, for example, where the top of the climb is generally flat. My harness to a BFT with some spare 7 or 8 mm cord. Anchor is any combination of trees and ice screws and bolts, equalized as best I can, and tied to a powerpoint. Reverso goes on that, and ends up laying flat on the ground. Then I belay in "non-autoblock" mode. Easy to catch a fall by the second, easy to pay out slack as necessary, easy to escape the belay and lock the follower off with an overhand knot... What am I missing?
Ball cuppage; realizing that the Gri-Gri is the best thing since... well... anything; and admission that JT is the best fucking climber in the world?
Am I far off?
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hugepedro
Jun 14, 2010, 8:22 PM
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I only carry 1 belay device, and I carry the device that gives me the greatest range of function at the lowest weight. That is the Reverso 3.
It handles everything from my 7.7mm twins to 10.5mm singles nicely. And if I'm dragging a couple noobs up an easy multi-pitch, autoblock mode can make my job easier. In that situation nobody cares if anyone weights the rope, they are there for the enjoyment of the experience, not style points.
If the anchor is solid, the choice to belay direct, off the harness, or re-direct is usually just a matter of convenience and comfort.
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curt
Jun 14, 2010, 8:39 PM
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jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: Freeing gear climbs on top rope on multipitch is just a silly concept since it will generally be blown by a stuck piece. You do what you can to climb cleanly but it's not a priority. If your seconds' free climbs are "generally" blown by a stuck piece, then your seconds generally don't know how to clean gear or you generally don't know how to place it. Jay OK it wasn't really a good argument BUT YOU'RE STILL TOPROPING. So? Jay
Additionally, if I'm seconding on a climb (which is NOT top roping, by the way) or top roping, I still want the opportunity to climb the pitch "free," i.e., without any points of aid.
Curt
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hafilax
Jun 14, 2010, 9:14 PM
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curt wrote: jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: Freeing gear climbs on top rope on multipitch is just a silly concept since it will generally be blown by a stuck piece. You do what you can to climb cleanly but it's not a priority. If your seconds' free climbs are "generally" blown by a stuck piece, then your seconds generally don't know how to clean gear or you generally don't know how to place it. Jay OK it wasn't really a good argument BUT YOU'RE STILL TOPROPING. So? Jay Additionally, if I'm seconding on a climb (which is NOT top roping, by the way) or top roping, I still want the opportunity to climb the pitch "free," i.e., without any points of aid. Curt
Tell me, when the climber is out of sight how you know how much slack he has without pulling on the rope? Oops you pulled too hard and now its a top rope A0.
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jt512
Jun 14, 2010, 9:23 PM
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hafilax wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: Freeing gear climbs on top rope on multipitch is just a silly concept since it will generally be blown by a stuck piece. You do what you can to climb cleanly but it's not a priority. If your seconds' free climbs are "generally" blown by a stuck piece, then your seconds generally don't know how to clean gear or you generally don't know how to place it. Jay OK it wasn't really a good argument BUT YOU'RE STILL TOPROPING. So? Jay Additionally, if I'm seconding on a climb (which is NOT top roping, by the way) or top roping, I still want the opportunity to climb the pitch "free," i.e., without any points of aid. Curt Look, I agree and if I can I'll give my climber a nice loose belay but if I'm climbing I'm not going to get to the top and yell at my belayer for ruining my top rope free ascent because he pulled too hard.
I would. I expect to be able to free climb the pitch, whether I'm leading, seconding, or actually top roping.
Jay
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ptlong
Jun 14, 2010, 10:03 PM
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hafilax wrote: ...if I'm climbing I'm not going to get to the top and yell at my belayer for ruining my top rope free ascent because he pulled too hard.
I would. I stopped climbing with this one guy who could never give a decent belay. If you're swinging leads, it's half the stinking route that gets screwed up by such incompetence. Who wants to be tensioned up a pitch? Raise your hands.
In reply to: Tell me, when the climber is out of sight how you know how much slack he has without pulling on the rope? Oops you pulled too hard and now its a top rope A0.
Well there's the crux of the issue. You don't know how to belay.
(This post was edited by ptlong on Jun 14, 2010, 10:04 PM)
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hafilax
Jun 14, 2010, 10:11 PM
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jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: Freeing gear climbs on top rope on multipitch is just a silly concept since it will generally be blown by a stuck piece. You do what you can to climb cleanly but it's not a priority. If your seconds' free climbs are "generally" blown by a stuck piece, then your seconds generally don't know how to clean gear or you generally don't know how to place it. Jay OK it wasn't really a good argument BUT YOU'RE STILL TOPROPING. So? Jay Additionally, if I'm seconding on a climb (which is NOT top roping, by the way) or top roping, I still want the opportunity to climb the pitch "free," i.e., without any points of aid. Curt Look, I agree and if I can I'll give my climber a nice loose belay but if I'm climbing I'm not going to get to the top and yell at my belayer for ruining my top rope free ascent because he pulled too hard. I would. I expect to be able to free climb the pitch, whether I'm leading, seconding, or actually top roping. Jay
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hafilax
Jun 14, 2010, 10:22 PM
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ptlong wrote: hafilax wrote: ...if I'm climbing I'm not going to get to the top and yell at my belayer for ruining my top rope free ascent because he pulled too hard. I would. I stopped climbing with this one guy who could never give a decent belay. If you're swinging leads, it's half the stinking route that gets screwed up by such incompetence. Who wants to be tensioned up a pitch? Raise your hands. In reply to: Tell me, when the climber is out of sight how you know how much slack he has without pulling on the rope? Oops you pulled too hard and now its a top rope A0. Well there's the crux of the issue. You don't know how to belay.
To recap, I'm talking about:
-long committing non-sport route (6+ pitches)
-a pitch with considerable rope drag
-the belayer is out of sight and verbal communication is limited
The first priority is to get the second up safely. An innocent injury could mean an epic rescue and I'm sorry but whatever ego boost you get from a TRFA is not worth it.
It's a hell of a lot easier to tell how much slack someone has while lead belaying that belaying from the top. The belayer WILL pull too hard at least once. The second WILL weight the rope if they want to down climb a few moves.
This does not describe every pitch and I can belay perfectly fine thank you very much. People beg me to climb with them! 
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ptlong
Jun 14, 2010, 10:37 PM
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hafilax wrote: ptlong wrote: In reply to: Tell me, when the climber is out of sight how you know how much slack he has without pulling on the rope? Oops you pulled too hard and now its a top rope A0. Well there's the crux of the issue. You don't know how to belay. Where have I said that this happens on every route? You people are too much. To recap, I'm talking about: -long committing non-sport route (6+ pitches) -a pitch with considerable rope drag -the belayer is out of sight and verbal communication is limited
To recap? You only said "out of sight" originally. Now it has to be over six pitches (why should that even matter), lots of rope drag, and of out of earshot as well.
There are situations where it's hard to give a great belay, but it's the exception instead of the rule. You make it sound like it's typical.
Your words: "Freeing gear climbs on top rope on multipitch is just a silly concept"
In reply to: I'm sorry but whatever ego boost you get from a TRFA is not worth it.
You're projecting. For me climbing is FUN whereas being tensioned up a route is not so much.
In reply to: It's a hell of a lot easier to tell how much slack someone has while lead belaying that belaying from the top.
Not if they're out of sight, out of earshot, with a bunch of rope drag. Oh, and at least six pitches up. (snicker)
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psprings
Jun 14, 2010, 10:43 PM
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ptlong wrote: You're projecting. For me climbing is FUN whereas being tensioned up a route is not so much.
Holy argue-fest over TRing!
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jt512
Jun 14, 2010, 10:48 PM
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psprings wrote: ptlong wrote: You're projecting. For me climbing is FUN whereas being tensioned up a route is not so much. I don't think he ever said that he was pulling so hard that the second was hanging. The way I read Hafilax is that he pulls up, feels some resistence, then that's enough.
And if he's belaying in fucking "guide mode"—which is how this all started—then his second is stuck with that much tension until he or she moves up. That is bad belaying. Sure, occasionally you might inadvertently put a little too much tension on your second, but at least if you're not belaying in this idiotic "guide mode" you can immediately reverse your mistake.
Jay
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