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jt512
Jul 21, 2011, 5:40 PM
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Kartessa wrote: jacques wrote: JoeHamilton wrote: So, What constitutes a BEGINNER .Is it TIME ? Is climbing leval ? Is it how many beers you can drink or friends you have ? I ask in part for my own curiosity and as I read through threads I see people say they are not beginners based on time and leval. In the old time, beginer means some think. Actually, it is a little humiliating because some people can climb at 5.6 level an enjoy it without wanting to be intermediate. Beginer was; three point of contact. A slab where two arm hold your stability and one feet your weight. To be a beginer, you have to move in balance: transfering the weight of your body from one feet to the other. Or it can be a move where you use two hand to hold your body weight and one feet, moving one arm or feet at a time. Intermediate was: two point of contact. a dulfer is one of these move where your feet is in contact with the rock and your hand pull on the other direction. It can also be a move of beginer with smaller hold or a move where you need more power to pull over after a rest. advance was the same as intermediate. Except that a hole is missing and you need to use your strenght to pull over. expert and when you use one hold like in an overhang or many small hold togheter as one good hold. You body make a counterbalance. for example, imagine you climb a stairs. If you take each side of the ramp with your hand and move one feet or arm at a time: it is beginer. If you climb alternatively with one feet pushing and one arm pulling simultaneously: it is intermediate If you climb two step at a time or don't use the ramp with your right hand, it is advance and if you climb the stair on one feet...staying in balance all the time, it is expert. Qu'est-ce que fuck?
The world according to Jacque.
Jay
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spikeddem
Jul 21, 2011, 5:56 PM
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jt512 wrote: Kartessa wrote: jacques wrote: JoeHamilton wrote: So, What constitutes a BEGINNER .Is it TIME ? Is climbing leval ? Is it how many beers you can drink or friends you have ? I ask in part for my own curiosity and as I read through threads I see people say they are not beginners based on time and leval. In the old time, beginer means some think. Actually, it is a little humiliating because some people can climb at 5.6 level an enjoy it without wanting to be intermediate. Beginer was; three point of contact. A slab where two arm hold your stability and one feet your weight. To be a beginer, you have to move in balance: transfering the weight of your body from one feet to the other. Or it can be a move where you use two hand to hold your body weight and one feet, moving one arm or feet at a time. Intermediate was: two point of contact. a dulfer is one of these move where your feet is in contact with the rock and your hand pull on the other direction. It can also be a move of beginer with smaller hold or a move where you need more power to pull over after a rest. advance was the same as intermediate. Except that a hole is missing and you need to use your strenght to pull over. expert and when you use one hold like in an overhang or many small hold togheter as one good hold. You body make a counterbalance. for example, imagine you climb a stairs. If you take each side of the ramp with your hand and move one feet or arm at a time: it is beginer. If you climb alternatively with one feet pushing and one arm pulling simultaneously: it is intermediate If you climb two step at a time or don't use the ramp with your right hand, it is advance and if you climb the stair on one feet...staying in balance all the time, it is expert. Qu'est-ce que fuck? The world according to Jacque. Jay
Awesome.
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mr.tastycakes
Jul 21, 2011, 6:22 PM
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Learner wrote: JoeHamilton wrote: What constitutes a BEGINNER? Is it TIME? Is climbing level ? Is it how many beers you can drink or friends you have ? I consider your status as a climber to be an indicator of, and determined by, your climbing level. It is a label for how hard you climb. If you climb... 5.8 and lower = BEGINNER 5.9-5.11b = INTERMEDIATE 5.11c-5.13b = ADVANCED 5.13c on up = EXPERT In other words, it is a level at which you are at. If you climbed 5.10's from day 1, you were never at the beginner level. You climbed a higher level than that since the day you started.
I find it hilarious that people get all butt-hurt and one-star your post because you suggested that one's free-climbing level might have something to do with how hard one can free-climb.
That dude that has been climbing for 30 years at the 5.8 level is not an expert, he's a goddamn liability. Trust me, I climb at the Gunks.
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lena_chita
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Jul 21, 2011, 9:07 PM
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Learner wrote: JoeHamilton wrote: What constitutes a BEGINNER? Is it TIME? Is climbing level ? Is it how many beers you can drink or friends you have ? I consider your status as a climber to be an indicator of, and determined by, your climbing level. It is a label for how hard you climb. If you climb... 5.8 and lower = BEGINNER 5.9-5.11b = INTERMEDIATE 5.11c-5.13b = ADVANCED 5.13c on up = EXPERT In other words, it is a level at which you are at. If you climbed 5.10's from day 1, you were never at the beginner level. You climbed a higher level than that since the day you started.
No way.
I tend to think of a beginner as someone who is just starting to climb, regardless of the level they are climbing at.
I met a guy a couple of weeks ago, it was only his first trip outside, he's been climbing for about a year total, and he was making his way up 5.12b. Bolt-to-bolt, sure, but he was doing O.K. He and his buddies were very nice, and didn't seem to do anything wrong in terms of their safety skills. But I would still think long and hard before I'd have one of them belaying me, and I would be definitely climbing with a mindset that i have a beginner belaying me, so no pushing limits.
OTOH, there are people who don't climb hard, won't even think of going bolt-to-bolt on that smae 5.12 that the guy was on, but who have been climbing for a long time, have been through a lot of tricky situations, and whom I would trust to hold my rope anyday.
However, simply the length of time you climb doesn't turn you into an expert, either.
The way I see it, there are two paths of progression from a beginner. There is a path that eventually leads to the solid/advanced/expert, and there is a path that leads to a permanent gumby status.
How do you know a gumby? It is sort of like porn. Hard to define, but you know it when you see it.
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potreroed
Jul 21, 2011, 10:05 PM
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No matter how long you've been climbing there is always something new to learn.
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jt512
Jul 21, 2011, 10:16 PM
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lena_chita wrote: The way I see it, there are two paths of progression from a beginner. There is a path that eventually leads to the solid/advanced/expert, and there is a path that leads to a permanent gumby status.
Beginner ———> Climbing club ———> Gumby
is one of the more reliable paths to permanent gumby status.
Jay
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rangerrob
Jul 22, 2011, 2:41 AM
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In reply to: I consider your status as a climber to be an indicator of, and determined by, your climbing level. It is a label for how hard you climb. If you climb... 5.8 and lower = BEGINNER 5.9-5.11b = INTERMEDIATE 5.11c-5.13b = ADVANCED 5.13c on up = EXPERT
I think the nickname of the person who came up with this nonsense is a good indicator that he doesnt have a clue what he is talking about. I'm pretty sure Fred Beckey would fall into his beginner category at this stage of his life. Fred has probably logged more climbing time than any other American climber...ever. He just happens to be in his late 80's now...I think.
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Learner
Jul 22, 2011, 2:55 AM
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rangerrob wrote: In reply to: I consider your status as a climber to be an indicator of, and determined by, your climbing level. It is a label for how hard you climb. If you climb... 5.8 and lower = BEGINNER 5.9-5.11b = INTERMEDIATE 5.11c-5.13b = ADVANCED 5.13c on up = EXPERT I think the nickname of the person who came up with this nonsense is a good indicator that he doesnt have a clue what he is talking about. I'm pretty sure Fred Beckey would fall into his beginner category at this stage of his life. Fred has probably logged more climbing time than any other American climber...ever. He just happens to be in his late 80's now...I think.
Many people in this thread are referring to the level of a person's climbing knowledge, which is not at all what I am referring to. I explicitly indicated that am referring to categories for how hard one climbs, their climbing performance level.
There is a difference between one's applicative climbing knowledge and how hard one climbs--the difference between what you and I are referring to.
(This post was edited by Learner on Jul 22, 2011, 3:03 AM)
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JoeHamilton
Jul 22, 2011, 3:14 AM
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I will attempt to jump in here. The base of my question was that i read about people in the threads always refering to there time or there Grade leval . Basically as a status indacater. Know what I have enjoyed in this thread is the diffrence of opinion on it . I'll be honest I half expected someone to throw a number of climbs and belays out there .Knowledge can come from books ,I could read for a year and practice knot tieng like a boy scout and FOOL you into thinking I know my shit and never put a hand on rock aside from skiping stones across the river .YES UNDOUBTABLY oonce out there Ill be caught .TIME I have time and like I said I have time OFF aswell and am makeing a return .I can climb WELL not great like a superstar but hey progression and love is what counts. I hope this continues
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rangerrob
Jul 22, 2011, 3:29 AM
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Learner you simply can't quantify performance level with words like beginner, intermediate, or expert. Once again, a 14 year old kid can climb 5.12 with just a few months experience. The quantification tool you are looking for is the Yosemite decimal system in the states, and various other alpha-numerical rating systems used around the world. These measure performance, not experience level.
when you use words like you used to describe someone's climbing ability you are inherently describing that climbers knowledge of the climbing game, in all it's facets. Strict performance level is only a small fraction of that skill set.
The ability to move efficiently in different terrain, the ability to improvise and use what tools a climber has to keep him/herself safe in different situations, routefinding, gear selection, hazard mitigation...these are things that climbers need to learn in order to rise through your beginner, moderate, advanced and expert categories.
Answer your question?
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Speed4TheNeed
Jul 22, 2011, 3:37 AM
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Just to throw another wrinkle into the gray fabric this thread is being weaved into: maybe it would help if part of your experience level INCLUDED what you have climbed before, not necessarily what you can currently climb (if you climbed 5.12 before, and are now aged or injured to where you no longer can..it doesn't mean you don't still know how).
Yes, it MAY be possible to know HOW to climb 5.14 without actually doing it. But I'm not buying your book.
No one likes gray areas it seems. Sometimes there is just no definitive short answer.
(This post was edited by Speed4TheNeed on Jul 22, 2011, 3:38 AM)
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Learner
Jul 22, 2011, 3:38 AM
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rangerrob wrote: Learner you simply can't quantify performance level with words like beginner, intermediate, or expert. Once again, a 14 year old kid can climb 5.12 with just a few months experience. The quantification tool you are looking for is the Yosemite decimal system in the states, and various other alpha-numerical rating systems used around the world. These measure performance, not experience level. when you use words like you used to describe someone's climbing ability you are inherently describing that climbers knowledge of the climbing game, in all it's facets. Strict performance level is only a small fraction of that skill set. The ability to move efficiently in different terrain, the ability to improvise and use what tools a climber has to keep him/herself safe in different situations, routefinding, gear selection, hazard mitigation...these are things that climbers need to learn in order to rise through your beginner, moderate, advanced and expert categories. Answer your question?
However, I maintain that in my original reply I was referring exclusively to categories of performance level. This is what "how hard you climb" means. If you truly disagree with what was posted, have the balls to offer an alternative. Otherwise, we are talking about two different things, and your response does not apply. And I'm not singling you out. Good post--I appreciate it.
(This post was edited by Learner on Jul 22, 2011, 3:40 AM)
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JoeHamilton
Jul 22, 2011, 3:40 AM
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rangerrob,wow the last paraghraph really puts a good spin on things . I think I like the status of NOVICE over beginner ,I know I can climb ,but some of that other stuff my experience hasnt put me in some of those sittuations .
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jacques
Jul 22, 2011, 3:43 AM
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Learner wrote: It is fine if you disagree with me, but please offer an alternative. Also keep in mind that I am referring to the status of a climber's performance level, similar to how you may categorize climbers in a competition. In other words, if you do offer a valid alternative, it must be quantifiable; you will likely also have to assign grades to your categories. (Good luck making everyone happy.).
Well, the system I described is use in many guide book. In climbing in the adirondacks, they call it easy, moderate, difficult and extreme but it is the same as in Ed webster books: beginer to expert. In France and canada, they use the same as webster. Patrick edlinger, in the book grimper, describe it a little more. So, if they use it in guide books all over USA, it must have some utility.
As Rangerrob said, Fred Beckey is not a beginer. I am sure that he know the technique of intermediate, advance and probably expert climbing.
I know many climber who don't know what is a layback and how to decide if a layback is a 5.8 or 5.9. for me technique is the way that the people use to decide if a climber is a beginer or an expert.
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Learner
Jul 22, 2011, 3:45 AM
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Speed4TheNeed wrote: Just to throw another wrinkle into the gray fabric this thread is being weaved into: maybe it would help if part of your experience level INCLUDED what you have climbed before, not necessarily what you can currently climb (if you climbed 5.12 before, and are now aged or injured to where you no longer can..it doesn't mean you don't still know how). Yes, it MAY be possible to know HOW to climb 5.14 without actually doing it. But I'm not buying your book. No one likes gray areas it seems. Sometimes there is just no definitive short answer.
Your comment on knowing how to do without doing is interesting. I could see how you may have the engrams for certain moves established but if your strength has regressed you may end up in such situation.
And... Did rangerrob write a book? 
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Learner
Jul 22, 2011, 3:50 AM
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jacques wrote: Learner wrote: It is fine if you disagree with me, but please offer an alternative. Also keep in mind that I am referring to the status of a climber's performance level, similar to how you may categorize climbers in a competition. In other words, if you do offer a valid alternative, it must be quantifiable; you will likely also have to assign grades to your categories. (Good luck making everyone happy.). Well, the system I described is use in many guide book. In climbing in the adirondacks, they call it easy, moderate, difficult and extreme but it is the same as in Ed webster books: beginer to expert. In France and canada, they use the same as webster. Patrick edlinger, in the book grimper, describe it a little more. So, if they use it in guide books all over USA, it must have some utility. As Rangerrob said, Fred Beckey is not a beginer. I am sure that he know the technique of intermediate, advance and probably expert climbing. I know many climber who don't know what is a layback and how to decide if a layback is a 5.8 or 5.9. for me technique is the way that the people use to decide if a climber is a beginer or an expert.
And I certainly agree with you that the difficulty of the moves one can execute should determine how they are categorized in terms of performance level.
(This post was edited by Learner on Jul 22, 2011, 3:57 AM)
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rangerrob
Jul 22, 2011, 3:51 AM
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Learner I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. You seem to be approaching your qualifications based purely on the numerical difficulty being achieved, and I'm saying you can't label someone with those words based purely on their numerical climbing ability. Let me throw this out there:
What is easier, a 40 foot 5.13 bolted face climb with one crux move, or a 1500' alpine 5.9 with off widths, runout slabs, loose rock, iced up cracks, and bad weather?
I did write a book. No one read it though. Too bad too, I know it would have been a NY Times bestseller!
(This post was edited by rangerrob on Jul 22, 2011, 3:53 AM)
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horseshoe
Jul 22, 2011, 4:09 AM
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JoeHamilton wrote: So, What constitutes a BEGINNER .Is it TIME ? Is climbing leval ? Is it how many beers you can drink or friends you have ? My first time in a gym takeing a begginner course like 11 years ago I top roped a 5.10 and didnt think it was a big deal in fact it was kinda hard but felt good. So really though is it your numbers or your time of experience ? Im just happy to be back climbing at a leval I can have fun with if the grades go up they do if at 40 years old they stay wher they are thats cool too...
First, thanks for starting a good discussion. If you want to skip the rest of my post just review the bold portions of your original post above. That's your answer.
Many things go into being experienced. How hard we climb and how long we've been climbing are a convenient short hand introduction for knowing another climber, but most people want to know more--especially when choosing a partner. What about variety of climbing experiences? This would include everything from types of rock, to successes and failures, to the various sub-disciplines of climbing.
If someone climbs hard and/or has been climbing for a long time, we assume that they have an advanced skill set. In theory, some one could have been climbing a long time and have nailed a handfull of hard climbs, but not have the diverse set of skills that enables them to deal with emergencies and adverse conditions.
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JoeHamilton
Jul 22, 2011, 4:21 AM
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we are getting to the point . Rob the second paraghraph of your post .compareing apples to oranges in the diffrenece of CLIMBING .I like how the second was a lower GRADE yet pretty obviouse it takes a DIFFRENT type of climber .One more EXTREEM then the other .I guess the point of the thread was for this exact type of disscussion and to point out that a NOOB to the site isnot automaticly a beginner as some might assume and some arent expert alpinest because they can lead a high graded sport route .Knowledgable climbers with much experience might only climb 5.9 and be happy . Most of the ones I have met like this are humble and HELPFULL .I am fortunet to beable to push hard at times and make some tuff routes ,Im a skinny little guy with strong tendons ,climbing (the moves and danceing part ) came natural ,yet some of what mentioned recently about self rescue and a couple other things Ive not yet encounterd , So I cant and wouldnt call myself an EXPERT ,.Another part of why I put this up was some one told me I wasnt a beginner after about 6 months of climbing cause I was leading sport in the gym at around 5.11b...Then I went outside and could do a 5.9 and man my arms burned up ,it was one of two routes for the day second route I bailed cause my arms went .CLIPPING MYSELF rather then them being in place ,WOW .Then the first time I had to UNTIE run through the lower off ring and retie ,than god I didnt shit myself . I found myself since coming back in the same position that untie the first route was nervey ,I made threw a few low routes that day but they felt good and fresh all over again . I suppose we could bring this question of STATUS to another leval of TYPE of climbing .LOL is there such thing as an EXPERT TOP ROPER .or EXPERT GYM CLIMBER .. okay I think Im tired and just haveing fun with the conversation now .THANKS again to everyone who has been participating in this
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Learner
Jul 22, 2011, 4:43 AM
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JoeHamilton wrote: ...is there such thing as an EXPERT TOP ROPER .or EXPERT GYM CLIMBER .. okay I think Im tired and just haveing fun with the conversation now.
There are experts at different things, and that fact is not exempt from different facets of climbing. There can be experts at top-roping in the gym. There can be experts at sport. Both of these experts can be beginners at trad. You may be an expert in knowlege but a beginner in terms of performance ability.
It is heirarchical; we can get even more specific... You may be an expert in knowledge of what all the moves are and the circumstances under which you're supposed to utilize them them but have never even applied them to the rock. Hence, you are an expert in factual knowledge on climbing technique but a complete blank-slate beginner in their physical application using your own body because you have no engrams established and thus lack procedural memory specific to the moves.
Good stuff, Joe!
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jacques
Jul 22, 2011, 12:14 PM
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rangerrob wrote: Learner I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. You seem to be approaching your qualifications based purely on the numerical difficulty being achieved, and I'm saying you can't label someone with those words based purely on their numerical climbing ability. Let me throw this out there:
I think that too on the system of learner. But he said that his system was to make a comparaison between people. It is a system to make a list to know who is the best climber and who is the weaker.
The origin of the system begineer to expert was to know if you have enought knowledge to climb a route. By the reading I did and by the climb I did in remote area (where I have to know the rating for route finding), I understood that the system is divide by what is more stable (three point of contact) to what is less stable (power one hold move). More you are instable, more you can fall and stronger you most be. In that way, you can not compare a weak technical climber with a strong no technical climber.
In learner system, yo can not compare the technique use in a climb. A strong 5.11 climber can do a flag in a 5.6 move. He climb with poor style because he didn't read the rock and didn't climb with less effort or security. There is no flag in a 5.6 even in a barn door.
Learner: I red many books as I wrote a guide book in quebec, I have to ask myself what is a good system. Mountaineering have a section at the end of the book, read the evolution from edition one to six (after they gave a procedure), grimper is an other good book who emphasize the distinction on rating. Some other book in german, traduct in french, gave an idea of how work the system. If you do a research, begin with the first system going from one to six (don't remember the name).
[u]A climber can learn to climb by trying to know what was the improvement make to upgrade the system.[/u] For example Dulfer was the first to use/describe the layback technique and after that, 5.7 diedral was not aid or stem anymore. His technique was a revolution in climbing and many route was climbed after. If a beginer begin with slab climbing, monkey hand, stemming, barn door etc. and after three or four route he try a layback...he will take many years to learn how to climb 5.11...but never so fun than when you try to understand a technique and finaly, you master it and climb a route onsight.
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mr.tastycakes
Jul 22, 2011, 2:39 PM
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rangerrob wrote: What is easier, a 40 foot 5.13 bolted face climb with one crux move, or a 1500' alpine 5.9 with off widths, runout slabs, loose rock, iced up cracks, and bad weather?
The ranges Learner gives can account for the different styles of climbing. For example, a solid, well-rounded intermediate climber would be able to tackle fairly hairy 5.9 (R-ish, off-width, a bit loose, etc), and quickly redpoint a 5.11b sport route. The categories he listed really aren't a bad rule-of-thumb for one's rock climbing performance level.
You asked earlier if Fred Becky was a beginner. No, he's not. He's a former badass hardman that is now climbing at a beginner/intermediate level because he's old. And that's OK; He's got a wealth of knowledge and experience, has made great contributions to climbing with his many FA's. None of this is intended to be offensive or ruffle feathers.
I guess my beef with this thread is that there seems to be a faction of people who play down the fact that rock climbing is an athletic pursuit, an "adventure sport", and one's ability to overcome difficulty (whether it be a 50 foot sport route or a 1500ft dangerous alpine climb) is how you progress in the sport. IMO, "advanced" or "expert" status is not a title you keep for life. Just because you've logged lots of milage and ticked a couple difficult climbs back in the day doesn't mean your overall climbing ability is at an advanced or expert level today. The difficulty of free climbing you can cope with today defines your climbing level (And I'm referring to difficulty in the holistic sense - including objective danger and commitment).
BTW, I'm a totally mediocre climber. And if I'm still climbing the same grades 20 years from now I'll still be a mediocre climber in spite of all that milage and experience. There's no point in sugar-coating it. There's also nothing wrong with enjoying rock climbing at whatever level of difficulty you're at.
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JoeHamilton
Jul 22, 2011, 3:05 PM
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GREAT RESPONSE. Humble and true. I push myself,compette with my own mind and body. AND have fun doing so. I think rateings are just a guide. A GREAT GUIDE but arent ment to messure ones status leval. I had fun doing a 5.2 with my kid to show her how to clean the draws and to put some in also to build her confidence. POINT HERE is WE HAD FUN. She made her first SPORT climb that day .
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Learner
Jul 22, 2011, 4:31 PM
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mr.tastycakes wrote: The ranges Learner gives can account for the different styles of climbing. For example, a solid, well-rounded intermediate climber would be able to tackle fairly hairy 5.9 (R-ish, off-width, a bit loose, etc), and quickly redpoint a 5.11b sport route. The categories he listed really aren't a bad rule-of-thumb for one's rock climbing performance level. You asked earlier if Fred Becky was a beginner. No, he's not. He's a former badass hardman that is now climbing at a beginner/intermediate level because he's old. And that's OK; He's got a wealth of knowledge and experience, has made great contributions to climbing with his many FA's. None of this is intended to be offensive or ruffle feathers. I guess my beef with this thread is that there seems to be a faction of people who play down the fact that rock climbing is an athletic pursuit, an "adventure sport", and one's ability to overcome difficulty (whether it be a 50 foot sport route or a 1500ft dangerous alpine climb) is how you progress in the sport. IMO, "advanced" or "expert" status is not a title you keep for life. Just because you've logged lots of milage and ticked a couple difficult climbs back in the day doesn't mean your overall climbing ability is at an advanced or expert level today. The difficulty of free climbing you can cope with today defines your climbing level (And I'm referring to difficulty in the holistic sense - including objective danger and commitment). BTW, I'm a totally mediocre climber. And if I'm still climbing the same grades 20 years from now I'll still be a mediocre climber in spite of all that milage and experience. There's no point in sugar-coating it. There's also nothing wrong with enjoying rock climbing at whatever level of difficulty you're at.
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jacques
Jul 22, 2011, 4:36 PM
Post #50 of 70
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Registered: May 14, 2008
Posts: 318
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JoeHamilton wrote: POINT HERE is WE HAD FUN .
One of my partner told me that is goal was to climb safely and to have fun. He climb a 5.9 because he think that it is easier than a 5.11 sport. Many people think like that and prefer to learn sport and do trad after because if they are in danger, they think that it is always possible to go over.
the rating and any system is too have a good evaluation of your capacity. To be able to look at a sequence of hold and do the move at the first time. if your are not able to do it, you can practice. But this is not the goal of the rating system.
When I ask to someone at which level he climb...if he told me 5.9 I presume that he know what is a layback and that he can place his body in a way that if he fall...he fall safely. If someone told me that he is at intermediary level, I presume that he have little knowledge of how to place his body to keep going and I can bring him or her in some route that they will enjoy.
Actually, it is not the case.
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