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Rmsyll2
Oct 31, 2011, 3:06 AM
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Today, a person with much exerience was belaying a sport lead using a Grigri. That made two, that I've noticed, and I've tried to notice. When asked about how to give slack, he said that there were a couple of tricks. He showed vaguely using his thumb to lift the handle some. I have not tried it to know better what he meant. I'm asking for more about the technique of using a Grigri for belaying lead. Please do not go on about soft catch and not using a Grigri. Just, how is slack given despite the tendency to lock.
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TheNags
Oct 31, 2011, 3:33 AM
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I have provided a lead belay from both grigri and atc, and if you use a smaller diameter rope (9.8 for me) it seems to feed slack just fine as long as you are not trying to feed slack at light speed. just my 2c and I am sure more people have have much more experience, however I have only had an issue paying out slack when the rope is really thick.
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redlude97
Oct 31, 2011, 3:36 AM
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i doubt he lifted the lever with his thumb but rather held down the cam
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shockabuku
Oct 31, 2011, 8:10 AM
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Start here:
http://www.petzl.com/...sisted-braking#video
It takes some practice to get it right. I find it's more important where the rope pile is flaked, relative to my right hand, when I use a Grigri than when I use an atc. If the rope isn't positioned to feed directly into my brake hand it often creates a lot of drag and makes it difficult to feed slack. When used right it works very well.
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j_ung
Oct 31, 2011, 3:35 PM
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^^ Agreed!
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potreroed
Oct 31, 2011, 4:03 PM
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With a little practice you'll have no trouble feeding the rope with a gri-gri.
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jt512
Oct 31, 2011, 5:15 PM
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shockabuku wrote: Start here: http://www.petzl.com/...sisted-braking#video It takes some practice to get it right. I find it's more important where the rope pile is flaked, relative to my right hand, when I use a Grigri than when I use an atc. If the rope isn't positioned to feed directly into my brake hand it often creates a lot of drag and makes it difficult to feed slack. When used right it works very well.
Are you talking about a Grigri 2? I never had the problem you described with the original Grigri, but I have noticed it with the Grigri 2 (I'm still not sure whether I like this device or not).
Jay
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shockabuku
Oct 31, 2011, 5:57 PM
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jt512 wrote: shockabuku wrote: Start here: http://www.petzl.com/...sisted-braking#video It takes some practice to get it right. I find it's more important where the rope pile is flaked, relative to my right hand, when I use a Grigri than when I use an atc. If the rope isn't positioned to feed directly into my brake hand it often creates a lot of drag and makes it difficult to feed slack. When used right it works very well. Are you talking about a Grigri 2? I never had the problem you described with the original Grigri, but I have noticed it with the Grigri 2 (I'm still not sure whether I like this device or not). Jay
I've had it with both - mostly when I walk too far away from my rope pile and try to quickly feed slack without deliberately pulling rope toward me first and feeding it into the device. User error.
I'm also not completely sold on the Grigri 2 vs. the original.
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shotwell
Oct 31, 2011, 6:10 PM
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I've also had rope drag issues with both. I've got old habits of leaving the rope flaked on my left from when I belayed with an ATC. Now that I use a GRIGRI full time, I really notice when I do this.
As far as GG2 versus original goes, I prefer lowering with the original. Feeding seems the same to me no matter where I flake the rope.
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clc
Nov 1, 2011, 1:35 AM
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Rmsyll, read the instructions. I have used the old grigri for about 15 yrs. I like the old grigri better. The new one locks up too easy when giving out slackand lowers differently. I'm just not used to the new one yet
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Rmsyll2
Nov 1, 2011, 3:06 AM
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The same video is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6EzpBaKYTs. There is also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uav7hIN-Uf0, and that very slow instruction is how I was able to see that the chick in the Petzl promo is using method 2. That is probably what the guy hinted to me about using his thumb. That would take me a bunch of practice.
I had searched here, not YouTube, and read a lot of negative about Grigris. Good to know somebody does like them for lead. Your encouragements and advice are encouraging, thanks.
[my problem with YouTube is distraction: somehow, I got to watching Jackie Chan, then listening to Alison Krauss....]
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bearbreeder
Nov 1, 2011, 3:50 AM
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careful about what you find on RC ... there are those who tell you that gri gris are the work of the devil and kill you and yr crag dog ...
all the sports climbers that i see who climb a lot around here use one or a similar device ... they also tend to be the climbers that fall the most
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JimTitt
Nov 1, 2011, 7:11 AM
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Rmsyll2 wrote: I had searched here, not YouTube, and read a lot of negative about Grigris. Good to know somebody does like them for lead. Your encouragements and advice are encouraging, thanks.
As Bearbreeder says, that´s RC.com and the internet in general. Those that have some crusading message post about how Grigris are the work of Satan. Those who actually use them no interest in whether anyone else does so just don´t post but the sheer number of people out there with one tells a different story. One fairly reliable market estimate is that 70% of Euro sport climbers use them.
I too thought the Grigri 2 was not as good as the old model with the normal sport ropes I use and gave mine away.
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mikebee
Nov 1, 2011, 10:13 AM
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GriGris are great for lead belay when used with the correct technique. So much that I am at the point where I'm considering using my GG2 for single pitch cragging. I think I'll always be an ATC-Guide/Reverso for multipitch.
I can belay with an ATC just fine, and have caught many falls with them, but I just feel like the GG gives me a bit of extra confidence as a belayer (and also when leading and getting belayed on a GG).
I reckon I can pay out rope faster with a GG2 also, which can be important in some situations.
Unlike many it seems, I really prefer the new GG2 compared to the original. I love how it feeds out so easily and works on skinnier ropes, and I like that it's smaller and lighter too.
I prefer the lowering or abseiling with the old ones, but otherwise I reckon everything about the new one is an improvement.
The most important thing is to be comfortable and proficient at whichever device you chose to belay with.
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Rmsyll2
Nov 4, 2011, 4:35 AM
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There were three of us today, one who wanted to practice Sport lead. We hung top-rope for regular belay, and he did clip a rope on mock lead, with me practicing lead belay. The recommended method of cupping the brake strand while thumbing down the release arm felt very clumsy, with the rope snagging in the brake hand when curled as in the diagram.
I'm tempted to just thumb down the release arm when pulling clipping slack, and let the rope run through the brake hand. The rope is still there in easy grasp. I think that the climber hand needs to be the conscious one, and that reversal worries me, especially for using a tube device instead, which I may refuse to do at least for a while. I do not have a good habit for pinching a rope to slide a hand, and am confused about that now.
I did do TR belay too, and switched back to those habits with no problem, which was a great relief for me. That's because I did develop habits. I hope that can happen with lead belay too; but it feels very complicated in comparison.
And I have a new question: what about commands from the leader? The climber wanted to concentrate only on what he was doing, without bothering to talk about it. There were places when I could not see his hands to know what to do. And he missed a clip, so if I had taken in on belay, he would have lost his slack and could have been thrown off balance by pulling up as if he had some. If I was responding to his commands, that sort of error would not happen. I thought we were told that most accidents are the result of poor communication, which means commands, doesn't it?
I see girlfriends put on lead belay first time out. I wouldn't do it without another true belay, and neither would the climber today with an inexperienced lead belayer. I did a mock lead too, only clipping the 'draws so he could only clip the rope, and man, lead is another realm of climbing imo. You can get hurt doing that!
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shockabuku
Nov 4, 2011, 11:39 AM
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Rmsyll2 wrote: There were three of us today, one who wanted to practice Sport lead. We hung top-rope for regular belay, and he did clip a rope on mock lead, with me practicing lead belay. The recommended method of cupping the brake strand while thumbing down the release arm felt very clumsy, with the rope snagging in the brake hand when curled as in the diagram. I'm tempted to just thumb down the release arm when pulling clipping slack, and let the rope run through the brake hand. The rope is still there in easy grasp.
I don't understand the difference between the two options you covered there.
In reply to: I think that the climber hand needs to be the conscious one
In concept, belaying with a Grigri or tube device aren't really much different. The brake hand controls whether or not the rope is fed into the device and takes up slack when needed while the other hand pulls slack. It takes some practice to be smooth. Most people have some amount of confusion when starting with an ATC also, some people don't seem to get past that.
In reply to: , and that reversal worries me, especially for using a tube device instead, which I may refuse to do at least for a while. I do not have a good habit for pinching a rope to slide a hand, and am confused about that now.
When you're lead belaying (at least with a Grigri) you shouldn't need to pinch and slide. I adjust the amount of rope out but it's usually short amounts and I just shuffle my brake hand up the rope.
In reply to: I did do TR belay too, and switched back to those habits with no problem, which was a great relief for me. That's because I did develop habits. I hope that can happen with lead belay too; but it feels very complicated in comparison. And I have a new question: what about commands from the leader? The climber wanted to concentrate only on what he was doing, without bothering to talk about it. There were places when I could not see his hands to know what to do. And he missed a clip, so if I had taken in on belay, he would have lost his slack and could have been thrown off balance by pulling up as if he had some.
You should be watching your belayer for body movement clues that tell you what's going on as well as leaving some slack so there's some rope for the climber to have freedom from you pulling on him. This is something that's best learned from someone who knows what they're doing as it varies depending on terrain as well as where the climber is on the route.
In reply to: If I was responding to his commands, that sort of error would not happen. I thought we were told that most accidents are the result of poor communication, which means commands, doesn't it?
Clipping commands are not necessary for an adequately trained climbing team.
In reply to: I see girlfriends put on lead belay first time out. I wouldn't do it without another true belay, and neither would the climber today with an inexperienced lead belayer. I did a mock lead too, only clipping the 'draws so he could only clip the rope, and man, lead is another realm of climbing imo. You can get hurt doing that! .
Yes, you can get hurt. Try to find someone to help you learn it the right way and hopefully you'll avoid that.
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lena_chita
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Nov 4, 2011, 3:03 PM
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Rmsyll2 wrote: There were three of us today, one who wanted to practice Sport lead. We hung top-rope for regular belay, and he did clip a rope on mock lead, with me practicing lead belay. The recommended method of cupping the brake strand while thumbing down the release arm felt very clumsy, with the rope snagging in the brake hand when curled as in the diagram. I'm tempted to just thumb down the release arm when pulling clipping slack, and let the rope run through the brake hand. The rope is still there in easy grasp. I think that the climber hand needs to be the conscious one, and that reversal worries me, especially for using a tube device instead, which I may refuse to do at least for a while. I do not have a good habit for pinching a rope to slide a hand, and am confused about that now.
I am not quite sure from your description when you were doing, and what the "modification" that felt better was, but "I am tempted to just thumb down the release arm" doesn't sound right. IF YOU PRESS DOWN THE CAM, THE GRI_GRI WILL NOT LOCK. The PETZL method pretty much means that if the climber falls you cannot maintain that thumb press. The way a lot of people do use a gri-gri (incorrectly), it is possible to clamp down hard and not release the cam.
Yes, feeding the slack out will feel weird, and clumsy at first, but I would focus on practicing the method endorsed by PETZL, and not trying something else.
Rmsyll2 wrote: And I have a new question: what about commands from the leader? The climber wanted to concentrate only on what he was doing, without bothering to talk about it. There were places when I could not see his hands to know what to do. And he missed a clip, so if I had taken in on belay, he would have lost his slack and could have been thrown off balance by pulling up as if he had some. If I was responding to his commands, that sort of error would not happen. I thought we were told that most accidents are the result of poor communication, which means commands, doesn't it?
The climber can call "clipping" as he is about to pull an armload of slack. But he doesn't have to. If he is within view and you are paying attention, you as a belayer can pretty much anticipate when he is going to be clipping, because you can either see your climber hanging the draw (which means that the rope will go next, lol), or see that he is within reach of a hanging draw.
All the other commands (slack, take, up-rope, tension, falling, watch me, etc.) also apply, but if the climber is within full view, he shouldn't ever need to yell slack or up-rope, and he really shouldn't need to yell falling or watch me. Some climbers prefer to communicate with the belayer, others prefer not to.
Oh, and with a climber on lead you should not "take in" the rope tightly if the climber is above the bolt, even if the climber erroneously yells "take".
In a situation of botched clip, like you describe above-, you take the excess slack in quickly (but not to the point of pulling tight, of course!), in case the climber falls, but stand ready to feed it right back out if he is going to attempt to clip again.
If you cannot see the climber, you just keep some slack in the system and feed the rope out as you see it getting tighter. Not much slack, I am not talking about a loop of slack on the ground in front of you, but enough that if the climber were going to make a long dynamic move the rope would not be pulling him. Out-of-sight climber is when the call of "clipping" by the climber would be very nice, if he wants to have a smooth clip.
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jt512
Nov 4, 2011, 8:05 PM
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shockabuku wrote: Clipping commands are not necessary for an adequately trained climbing team.
I disagree. If you're out of the belayer's sight, it is often good to call out the clip. Also, I almost always call out the clip when I'm climbing a route that already has the draws up. When you hang the draw yourself it signals the upcoming clip to the belayer. But when the draw is already up, the belayer doesn't get such a cue, and it is often difficult for the belayer to see you reach for your rope.
Jay
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shockabuku
Nov 5, 2011, 2:44 AM
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jt512 wrote: shockabuku wrote: Clipping commands are not necessary for an adequately trained climbing team. I disagree. If you're out of the belayer's sight, it is often good to call out the clip. Also, I almost always call out the clip when I'm climbing a route that already has the draws up. When you hang the draw yourself it signals the upcoming clip to the belayer. But when the draw is already up, the belayer doesn't get such a cue, and it is often difficult for the belayer to see you reach for your rope. Jay
I'll grant that they can be useful, my point was that a climber and his/her belayer should be able to get by without them. There are occasions when both sight and sound don't work to your benefit, even sometimes on single pitch sport routes.
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Rmsyll2
Nov 12, 2011, 2:14 PM
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Last weekend, two very experienced climbers were leading a 5.11 Sport route. They use the earlier method, noted in the slow video as thumb out and fingers gripping the cam arm from under. That is probably the method that dumped climbers from failing to release that full grip. However, they said that simply pulling the brake hand forward off the device would put the rope in brake situation (and the thumb out).
The pinching to slide a hand that I've seen is associated with also keeping the climber hand high, it seems. That position is ready to pull slack quickly for a fall, and that is attractive to me, but that is the sort of coordination I don't yet have enough practice with.
With another chance to practice, I am trending to the currently advised method of thumb in and only that thumb holding down the cam arm to give slack for pulling up the rope. I am not using the brake hand high, because that is bad for using tube devices, which I'm doing for TR belay to maybe help keep habits distinct. That partner did not call many commands either, and I'm getting better at anticipating and knowing how much slack for clipping, but only by watching. Feel doesn't mean much yet.
This is hard, for me; but it is how a lot of new climbers start belaying. Very glad I did not.
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stoneguy
Nov 12, 2011, 4:02 PM
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I asked a similar question a while ago and found a few things of interest. The chick in the video "steps in" for part of her slack. Now I am trying two pulls and a step in for an aggressive leader. Also trying the advice of coiling very close by.
The other point that seemed to surface was that the fatter ropes can be sluggish, but catch very well, whereas a skinnier rope MAY skate thru for a bit before catching on a GG2. I opted to stick with the bigger rope.
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rangerrob
Nov 12, 2011, 4:53 PM
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I've never been a fan of someone belaying me with a grirgi while I'm leading. I think it imparts a very static belay, which causes, among other things, a very hard fall. It also puts additional strain on the top piece of gear. It also encourages bad belaying practices. Okay, I'll stop now.
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areyoumydude
Nov 12, 2011, 5:05 PM
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rangerrob wrote: I've never been a fan of someone belaying me with a grirgi while I'm leading. I think it imparts a very static belay, which causes, among other things, a very hard fall. It also puts additional strain on the top piece of gear. It also encourages bad belaying practices. Okay, I'll stop now.
Yer doing it wrong.
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rangerrob
Nov 12, 2011, 5:15 PM
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I'm not doing anythign wrong. i don't use one. However, there is no disputing the fact that grigris do not let near the amount of rope slide through the device as a plate or tube. The only dynamics in a grirgi belay are the movement of the belayer.
Aid climbing is a different scenario. I don't mind my belayer using a grigri when I am on a 2 or 3 hour lead
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