Can you place two?

Edit: I realize your number's describing the route are mostly estimates, but: 1/4 of 50 = 37.50. 1/2 of 50 = 25. 25/37.50. = 2/3 With an attentive belayer giving a dynamic belay, I think the fall factor would likely be much less than one.

As said above, I'd place two if possible. If a green Alien is BARELY too big, a Blue might be slightly too small, although they do overlap better than most cams. I'd try a few different types of cams and see what fits best. For example, my TCUs and Aliens seem to cover the sizes in between each other's overlaps (does that makes sense?) If I find a placement between two of my TCU sizes, an alien will usually cover it, and vice versa.

BTW, I have taken a 10 footer, on a blue as my first piece, and touched the ground with my feet as rope stretch. My belayer did not give a very soft catch (it hurt actually), and the alien didn't even deform (often the lobes will deform in hard falls). I think that fall came close to factor 1, but the placement was good.

I say double up if at all possible.

Also, I would seriously consider buying a screamer.

A study undertaken by Metolius found that, generally, 1 out of 20 BOMBER cam placements will fail. The reasons for such are myriad. Which one of the 20 will you take a fall on? Without redundancy, you're playing Russian Roulette. Your call...

I'm currently working a route that's about 50 ft long.
The crux is 1/4 from the top, and the only gear is a perfect parallell-sided crack about 1/2-way up, that's JUST too small for my green Alien.

I figure, were I to take a fall, even with an attentive belayer, with some reasonable slack not to hinder my movements I would end up hanging just above the ground, with rope stretch and all. Making the fall factor at least close to 1.0.

Just above the crux is a good rest with good gear, so don't worry about cratering from the top.

What do you say, would you trust a blue Alien in this situation?(provided I can get my hands on one...)
Or do you have other suggestions?
The WC Zero in the corresponding size (#4) is only rated to 6 kN, as I can see, while the blue Alien is rated to 9.3 kN.

A study undertaken by Metolius found that, generally, 1 out of 20 BOMBER cam placements will fail. The reasons for such are myriad. Which one of the 20 will you take a fall on? Without redundancy, you're playing Russian Roulette. Your call...

Slide the piton in about a 1/3rd of its length with finger pressure to find the correct size. Hammer it in. It should ring loud and clear with the tone riseing in pitch. When the tone stops riseing and stays the same for 2 or 3 blows it is in as good as it will get. Stop hammering and clip. Over hammering may compromise the placement.

If your GF is from the alps she may get arroused by the sound of hammer ringing on piton

I would use a ballnut in this case, backed up with the alien.

link to the study? I read in a metolius cam info packet that 1 in 20 cam placements can fail, but I thought that counted crappy placements, or was complete BS.

Not bringing it down to my level. It sounded like the guy was working on a new climb. if that is the case and the gear sucks at the crux, fixing a pin when he is establishing the climb may be a good idea. I would shy away from the bolt unless the pin sucked. All part of the game. If the climb is allready established then you most will be stuck with the crappy gear.

I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but I'm wondering why a piton and not a bolt? A bolt might be less damaging to the rock and less permanent, if removal was ever needed (Triplex and filler putty). Wouldn't a piton possibly damage or enlarge the crack, hence altering the route?

I can't answer for Tradman, but for me, I'd go with a piton for a couple of reasons.

1. A piton is easier/quicker to place on lead than drilling a bolt on lead.

2 Pulling Pitons isn't that hard, they used to be considered removable pro. Unless the eye breaks...

3. I'd place a piton and leave it, whenever it does come out, then most likely yes, the rock will be changed, however, it might create a good/better placement for a nut or tcu.

Just my $0.02

When i am putting up a new rout and there is a good micro cam placenet then i am fine with that. If its questionable and the results of a fall would be bad then I don't hessitate to pound a pin or drill a bolt. Bolts are cheaper than pins but pins have more charecter and go allong with takeing what the rock has to offer. Properly placed pins can be good for 20+ years even in the northeast.

Properly placed pins can be good for 20+ years even in the northeast.

jay, A fixed pin is clean just like a bolt drilled on lead is clean.

so jay the sport climber is against fixed gear?

If i got 2 absolutly perfect micro gear placements in good rock I probobly would be ok with that. One micro cam in an X situation that has hard insecure moves and I will break out the hammer in a heartbeat. My Ego is not anywhere near insecure enough to make me do something stupidly dangerous just to please the ethics police.

My Ego is not anywhere near insecure enough to make me do something stupidly dangerous just to please the ethics police. It's bad enough that i usually go ground up and hand drill. i am not going to get chopped doing hard moves over total mank just to prove how manly I am.

jay, Most sport climbs have bolts next to features that would take taped hooks, ball nuts, micro stoppers...

Hey everyone! Look!
It's a cock measuring contest!

Not confused at all. I like putting climbs up on lead but i do Not have any use for X rated climbs.

Rgold. Most of us are not blessed with literally thousands of G rated climbs that take natural gear. Always have had a problem with gunkis telling the rest of us that we have to climb a certain way.. maybe you should tell Ed Webster, Kurt Winkler, George Hurly, John Sykes, etc. Etc. Etc that all those bolts and pins they placed were unethical and that we sould just run it out all the time up here in VT and NH?

Jake, what makes my ground up climb that sports a few bolts and the very rare pin in places where i deem the fixed protection nessicary a travesty when your top down bolted sport climb is not?

How full of shit can you possibly be?

Jake, what makes my ground up climb that sports a few bolts and the very rare pin in places where i deem the fixed protection nessicary a travesty when your top down bolted sport climb is not?

Rgold. Most of us are not blessed with literally thousands of G rated climbs that take natural gear. Always have had a problem with gunkis telling the rest of us that we have to climb a certain way.. maybe you should tell Ed Webster, Kurt Winkler, George Hurly, John Sykes, etc. Etc. Etc that all those bolts and pins they placed were unethical and that we sould just run it out all the time up here in VT and NH?

Going with Rgold. But why not just toprope it? 50 feet...come on.

You can use this calculator to compute the theoretical impact force on your gear. FWIW, you'll see that the theoretical impact force is close to the rated strength of the blue Alien. Based on that, I would not trust even a perfectly placed Alien to hold a fall.

However, you have said that the green Alien just barely doesn't fit. That means that you will probably not be able to get an optimal blue Alien placement: halve the rated strength. Now the theoretical impact force is nearly double the likely strength of the placement. Therefore, I would not trust the Alien.

Furthermore, where have you been for the last two years? Have you slept through Aliengate? Enough failures of Aliens under little more than body weight loads have occurred to cast doubt on every Alien in the field. Therefore, I would not trust the Alien.

Furthermore, where have you been the last twenty years? Hasn't anyone mentioned to you the rule of thumb never to have only one piece of gear between you and death? That's one piece of any gear, never mind a micro cam, never mind a micro cam with a history of grave manufacturing defects. Therefore, I would not trust the Alien.

So, there you go, four reasons not to trust the Alien.

Jay

R gold, you are setting on a pretty high horse over there in the gunks. You step out your front door and you have literally thousands of gear protected climbs.
There are maybe 100 climbs in Central VT. If I go out and establish an x rated 5.9 up a classic line and then claim that as my own trophy I can't imagin a more selfish act. No! you guys just itching to go climbing today if you can't hack 5.9X then go home you sissies... there are 3 other climbs over there with long lines on them that you can play on. this climb is to prove what a bad ass I am and secure my legacy What a load of crap!

You want to talk NH? How often would didre get climbed without a pin at the crux? Should the prow be eradicated? The last Unicorn a travesty?
Heck, remove bolts and pins from Cathedral and White horse and you lose 50% of your climbs.. do the same thing at the gunks and you still have a thousand climbs to play on....
Just annother case of the Haves telling the have not's how to live

Whatever.... Pleanty of room down there in the gunks for completly clean climbs and you only have to pay $15.00 a day to get on them and you stand a good chance of being robbed in the process.

R gold, you are setting on a pretty high horse over there in the gunks. You step out your front door and you have literally thousands of gear protected climbs.
There are maybe 100 climbs in Central VT. If I go out and establish an x rated 5.9 up a classic line and then claim that as my own trophy I can't imagin a more selfish act. No! you guys just itching to go climbing today if you can't hack 5.9X then go home you sissies... there are 3 other climbs over there with long lines on them that you can play on. this climb is to prove what a bad ass I am and secure my legacy What a load of crap!

You want to talk NH? How often would didre get climbed without a pin at the crux? Should the prow be eradicated? The last Unicorn a travesty?
Heck, remove bolts and pins from Cathedral and White horse and you lose 50% of your climbs.. do the same thing at the gunks and you still have a thousand climbs to play on....
Just annother case of the Haves telling the have not's how to live

Whatever.... Pleanty of room down there in the gunks for completly clean climbs and you only have to pay $15.00 a day to get on them and you stand a good chance of being robbed in the process.

However, you don't know what "my" area here is like. And let's just say there are reasons I don't want to put fixed gear up there. Okay?

If I go out and establish an x rated 5.9 up a classic line and then claim that as my own trophy I can't imagin a more selfish act.

[ . . . ]

#2. I later said that the green is prolly 2-3 mm too big. Minimum size of the Blue is 4 mm smaller than the Green. 2 mm is less than 1/3 of the (theorethical) expansion range. In a good crack in solid rock, do you think that's too much? (honest question.)

#4. Aw, come on Jay! Like you've never climbed an R-rated route in your life...

So anyone who happens to do an X-rated route is selfish?

Lol at the sport climbers poo-poohing a trad climber that dares suggesting placing a single bolt to keep your butt off the deck. What a bunch of arbitrary BS.

Are you referring to me?

Probably me. Odd that he's the second traddie in the thread who doesn't understand the difference between a piton and a bolt.

Jay

I always remember it by telling myself that a bolt is always placed with a gun and a piton is always placed with a hammer. That makes it pretty easy.

Man I can't seem to get myself a bolt gun (hangs head in shame).

That can be a very difficult distinction to make.
I always remember it by telling myself that a bolt is always placed with a gun and a piton is always placed with a hammer. That makes it pretty easy.

bolt gun = A mythical rock climbing implement featured in the movie Cliffhanger (quoted from wikipedia)

http://www.google.ca/...&ved=0CB0Q9QEwAw
click on "see full size image"

Rich, you are always the good will ambassador on these sites, so let me say what I know you're thinking. It sounds like Tradman from Vermont gets shut down whenever he comes to the Gunks, and therefore is bitter about the climbing here. I think it's pretty damned funny that he's telling us that RGold is "spoiled" with all the well protected routes he does. perhaps he should take a little look at some of the routes RGold put up in the 60's and 70's. Well protected my ass. Put up a route like Co-ex or Try Again with shitty shoes, a swami belt, and a few pins, and then you can brag about your accomplishments.

RR

It is very clearly not a myth. How do you think those bolts get up there?

Jake, what makes my ground up climb that sports a few bolts and the very rare pin in places where i deem the fixed protection nessicary a travesty when your top down bolted sport climb is not?

How full of shit can you possibly be?

Jay, while you are at it whats up with all your bolts? why don't you just wait for someone stronger to come allong and do your climbs without bolts?

Sport routes do not take gear. If a piece of gear goes there then there should not be a pin. the guy said at least 1 if not 2 cams can go in the crack.

Sport routes do not take gear. If a piece of gear goes there then there should not be a pin. the guy said at least 1 if not 2 cams can go in the crack..

go to Rumney and place a cam in one of those cracks and then take a solid whip onto it and see how much rock you take down with you.

sporty defending the trad!

Jake, somehow I knew you'd bring up the retrobolted gear routes at Rumney. There are more than a few "sport routes that take gear". But according to you, without the bolts they would get too dirty from lack of traffic. Afterall, Rumney is a SPORT ONLY destination right?

(For all wondering, I brought my rack to Rumney a few years ago, and climbed some routes on gear, only to find bolts next to cracks. Jake was the one that filled me in with the ethics behind it all.)

BTW Jake, I'll hopefully be stopping by Rumney on my way to Cannon this August. If you are available, I'd like to climb with you finally. Oh, and I'll gladly whip on some gear placements for you too, although I doubt I'll be using many cams in that rock...nuts and tricams are the way to go in that schist!

Jake, sorry for the typo on the name, Trust me, Rumny especially and most other sport crags that I have been too have bolts in situations where gear would be anywhere from sketch to bomber. Keep in mind that i am being attacked for my beliefs in placeing fixed gear in situations where trad gear is sketch and the climbing is insecure for the grade.

... most of the climbs in the needles SD would not exist...

This certainly is true. Even in the 70's, getting safely to the top was more important than leaving it as found.

And some wonder were the newer gym-crossovers get gull to make everything safe.

The phrase you are looking for is "get the gall".
Please do not let it happen again.

There are retro'd routes and they see a lot more traffic now. All were done with the permission of the FA or the FA themselves. you *can* do many of the routes on gear.. my friend Lee has been doing many this summer like that for giggles. It is not exactly the best method if you are not a solid trad leader and have done the routes many times like he has.

And i would rather see a bolt placed than a pin.. bolts do not change holds but pins that are put and and pulled out expand holds. Hence many free'd aid lines.

I've actually done a few gear routes at rumney this year. One that was Retro'd and 2 that are straight trad.

Let me know when you're up and i'll see what i can do. first 2 weeks of aug are tricky. I won't carry you out though ;)

Fair enough, but would you carry my rack out?

Start at the bottom, arm yourself with whatever trinkets modern technology has developed, and either succeed or back off.

I say double up if at all possible.

Also, I would seriously consider buying a screamer.

RG, as always you make a well reasoned argument. But I am left with a serious question.

In your opinion, is there no place for a hammer on longer serious FA attempts? Does drilling from stances (or hooks), or pounding a pin or two in a substantial route that is otherwise protectable with clean gear not kosher? Does it not satisfy the following criteria?


Taking an example that Tradman brought up earlier, let's look at Diedre. Now I don't want to get into whether what the actual FA party did was kosher or not, particularly since the climb was done *before* the clean climbing revolution came along. What I'm interested in is what would be kosher to do if that were an FA *today*.

To my recollection, the best and only decent gear to protect the step across is a pin. As such, I don't see the problem with today's FA party placing that pin. Mind you, I think the OP's situation is rather different, since I think he admitted that two (or even three) small pieces could potentially be placed before the crux on his climb.

So back to the pin on Diedre - Certainly the climb could be done without it, but why say that the modern FA party *must* do so? I honestly don't see the problem with putting in an occasional pin or bolt on a multipitch climb that otherwise is well protected with clean removable gear. So far as I can see, placing a pin or bolt in an attempt to get from ground to summit has always been a valid last resort, when no other means of protection are available.

GO

All you sallys that will scream on the internet at me for recomending placeing the bolt on the FA are completely full of shit because you know damn well that you would be shaking like a dog shitting razorblades over that crappy micro cam and totally stoked the moment you had the bolt clipped and it still sounds like it's a good long ways to the top after that so you will be jazzed and satisfyed when you get to the trees.

Well there's a thought. And following from that, if the top's accessible why not just hang a super-duper-mother-of-all-runners from the top such that the end hangs above the crack and below the crux; basically a really long pre-hung draw? Not the prettiest of solutions, but it'll keep you off the deck and doesn't harm the rock in any manner.

RG, as always you make a well reasoned argument. But I am left with a serious question.

In your opinion, is there no place for a hammer on longer serious FA attempts? Does drilling from stances (or hooks), or pounding a pin or two in a substantial route that is otherwise protectable with clean gear not kosher? Does it not satisfy the following criteria?

So back to the pin on Diedre - Certainly the climb could be done without it, but why say that the modern FA party *must* do so? I honestly don't see the problem with putting in an occasional pin or bolt on a multipitch climb that otherwise is well protected with clean removable gear. So far as I can see, placing a pin or bolt in an attempt to get from ground to summit has always been a valid last resort, when no other means of protection are available.