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mar_leclerc
Apr 8, 2011, 3:12 PM
Post #126 of 190
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Seeing as it only counts as a legit send if you lead it, I obviously prefer to lead. Its pretty obvious... Nothing really to do with ego, unless you are telling me that because I prefer to climb a route in proper style (on lead no falls all gear placed on lead and so on) that I am feeding my ego.... Yeah, there are times where on some hard multipitch free climb there is a pitch more suited to my partners strenghts and he will lead it .. and another pitch might be my style so I lead it, its called strategy in order to get a proper all free ascent. Hoever I think if someone ropeguns you up a free climb beyond your lead abilities but you follow clean, thats not a very good free ascent... there has to be relatively equal lead efforts from both parties... but now I am just rambling.. I really just think it was sort of a ridiculous question in the first place... why lead? Because that is how climbing works.
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Gmburns2000
Apr 8, 2011, 3:15 PM
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for a complete summary of all the best answers to the OP's question, see below.
mar_leclerc wrote: I really just think it was sort of a ridiculous question in the first place... why lead? Because that is how climbing works.
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enigma
Apr 9, 2011, 6:37 AM
Post #128 of 190
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Gmburns2000 wrote: for a complete summary of all the best answers to the OP's question, see below. mar_leclerc wrote: I really just think it was sort of a ridiculous question in the first place... why lead? Because that is how climbing works. Hint: Read Tony Robbins, do you know what a subliminal message is? How does that work in relationship to the truth about leading for Men and Women? Strengths and Weakness ?
(This post was edited by enigma on Apr 9, 2011, 7:20 AM)
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pfpm79
Apr 9, 2011, 7:28 AM
Post #129 of 190
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I agree
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enigma
Apr 9, 2011, 7:50 AM
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Glad someone understands !
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OCD
Apr 9, 2011, 8:21 AM
Post #131 of 190
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top roping is annoying! I don't like the rope in my face, or blocking my holds, or interfering with my climbing style. But I do top rope if needed for one reason or another. I do like climbing with people that climb harder, they have all the beta
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Gmburns2000
Apr 9, 2011, 9:41 AM
Post #132 of 190
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enigma wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: for a complete summary of all the best answers to the OP's question, see below. mar_leclerc wrote: I really just think it was sort of a ridiculous question in the first place... why lead? Because that is how climbing works. Hint: Read Tony Robbins, do you know what a subliminal message is? How does that work in relationship to the truth about leading for Men and Women? Strengths and Weakness ? That's what is ridiculous about the question to begin with. So what is the truth? What do you think the truth is? What sort of sub-conscious messages are men and women saying to each other about leading, and does it matter? Personally, for me, if someone wants to lead then that person should speak up and lead. If that person doesn't speak up and wants to lead then it's that person's fault for not speaking up. There is nothing subliminal about it. I prefer to chose partners who I can swap leads with. I love leading, but I need a rest at some point in the day and I look for people who can share the workload, male or female. So for me, again, there is nothing subliminal about it. I think if you're worrying about subliminal messages then you're choosing the wrong partners or you don't know how to communicate...oh, wait.
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happiegrrrl
Apr 9, 2011, 2:58 PM
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I haven't read Tony Robbins, but I know what a subliminal message is.... If someone is trying to post subliminal messages to their climbing partner via their leading...well, that's screwed up! But personal issues do arise in climbing, of course. It is a microcosm for life, in some respects. I have led all day, with a follower. I'm not THAT confident that I find the days as my best ones out there. - The awareness that, if something goes wrong, it is on me to get us out is stressful,m and I need to choose routes carefully that I KNOW I can deal with any issues. - I also don't enjoy the pressure of feeling I am not giving a "hard day's climbing" for my partner(if that seems the case - sometimes it can be, others not). I'm not a "ticking time bomb" sort of climber anyway. I DO like efficiency while on the climb; just not the running to tick the next, the next, the next. Depending on who I am climbing with, I enjoy my share of leading. If they are a solid leader at a harder grade, and just trying to "give me a pitch or two" - frankly, I'd rather just follow them all day. - I LIKE being a good partner. I have had many people tell me that they couldn't/wouldn't do some of the climbs they had done, with some other people they know. But they feel good with me on the other end. - I am climbing with a partner now, on road trip(though the van is broken down in Tucson, AZ right now....what will the future bring?). He leads several grades harder, but he is the most patient while I get pitches in, and sees it as a way for me to improve and be competent AT the higher grades. I enjoy my leads with him, even the ones I am swearing and whimpering on(not so sure he enjoys them though...). I think my best days climbing, as a leader, are when I am swinging leads with a person. But I don't think it is as simple as "men's lead head" and "women's lead head." I've seen very strong, very weak, and everything in between in both sexes.
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I_do
Apr 9, 2011, 3:42 PM
Post #134 of 190
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mar_leclerc wrote: Seeing as it only counts as a legit send if you lead it, I obviously prefer to lead. Its pretty obvious... Nothing really to do with ego, unless you are telling me that because I prefer to climb a route in proper style (on lead no falls all gear placed on lead and so on) that I am feeding my ego.... Yeah, there are times where on some hard multipitch free climb there is a pitch more suited to my partners strenghts and he will lead it .. and another pitch might be my style so I lead it, its called strategy in order to get a proper all free ascent. Hoever I think if someone ropeguns you up a free climb beyond your lead abilities but you follow clean, thats not a very good free ascent... there has to be relatively equal lead efforts from both parties... but now I am just rambling.. I really just think it was sort of a ridiculous question in the first place... why lead? Because that is how climbing works. Have any more bullshit to spread? It's how it works for you, don't impose your ethics on what is and what's not climbing on others. Especially if you think gear needs to be placed on lead.
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mar_leclerc
Apr 9, 2011, 5:17 PM
Post #135 of 190
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I_do wrote: Have any more bullshit to spread? It's how it works for you, don't impose your ethics on what is and what's not climbing on others. Especially if you think gear needs to be placed on lead. Not all climbers care about 'sending' or climbing in 'good style', a lot of climbers, especially in my specific area are out there just to chill, top rope and have a lot of fun! I LOVE doing this too, if a rope is up on a climb my friend just led I will sometimes huck a TR lap on it... BUT, I don't then go around talking about how I onsighted or sent the route, and if I actually want to onsight, or send it proper, I pull the rope and lead it, placing all the gear on lead. I am not saying every HAS to lead to be a rock climber, I am saying that if the person gets to the point where they want to challenge themselves and try to actually 'send' climbs that they have start leading. At some point climbers start to get some sort of ambition, and as soon as they want to reach personal goals in climbing, they are probably going to have to start leading. I don't know any climbers with a ton of ambition that do not lead, or are not in the process of learning to lead, or at least setting goals about when they can start learning about lead climbing. If you do a climb you should be totally honest about how you did it.... 'yeah, I sent that but I TR'd it first I had to headpoint it' or, 'Yeah, I did lead it but I got my friend to pre-place all the gear for me'. I don't think top-roping, headpointing, or pink-pointing is 'bad' or 'not real climbing'... I do all of them myself and have plenty of fun. But when it comes down to it leading, ground up, plaing gear is unarguably the best style short of onsight soloing (which is extremely dangerous and highly NOT reccomended) and climbing in the best style you can is awesome!
(This post was edited by mar_leclerc on Apr 9, 2011, 5:19 PM)
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blueeyedclimber
Apr 9, 2011, 5:34 PM
Post #136 of 190
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What do you agree with exactly? I notice that you replied to enigma. Do you agree with everything she says? Is that the road that you are sure you want to go down? Josh
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enigma
Apr 9, 2011, 5:34 PM
Post #137 of 190
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Gmburns2000 wrote: enigma wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: for a complete summary of all the best answers to the OP's question, see below. mar_leclerc wrote: I really just think it was sort of a ridiculous question in the first place... why lead? Because that is how climbing works. Hint: Read Tony Robbins, do you know what a subliminal message is? How does that work in relationship to the truth about leading for Men and Women? Strengths and Weakness ? That's what is ridiculous about the question to begin with. So what is the truth? What do you think the truth is? What sort of sub-conscious messages are men and women saying to each other about leading, and does it matter? Personally, for me, if someone wants to lead then that person should speak up and lead. If that person doesn't speak up and wants to lead then it's that person's fault for not speaking up. There is nothing subliminal about it. I prefer to chose partners who I can swap leads with. I love leading, but I need a rest at some point in the day and I look for people who can share the workload, male or female. So for me, again, there is nothing subliminal about it. I think if you're worrying about subliminal messages then you're choosing the wrong partners or you don't know how to communicate...oh, wait. Since you haven't read Tony Robbins , its impossible to explain to you all that he has written. Its not just subliminal messages, it is much more complicated way of thinking. Get a book or his tapes, maybe then you will understand about strengths and weakness, and what I am speaking about. He also has conferences and many famous top athletes are on the same page. Its impossible to discuss Tony Robbins with you if aren't familiar with his work. If you want to lead go right ahead, if I want to second on a harder climb , I can do that as well. If you want to swap leads, and you are happy that is good too. If someone wants to lead easy climbs and their partner is into that as well, that is their choice. Whether its a man or woman. You see I'm not arguing with you at all. Be happy and climb. Let others do the same.
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enigma
Apr 9, 2011, 5:49 PM
Post #138 of 190
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happiegrrrl wrote: I haven't read Tony Robbins, but I know what a subliminal message is.... If someone is trying to post subliminal messages to their climbing partner via their leading...well, that's screwed up! But personal issues do arise in climbing, of course. It is a microcosm for life, in some respects. I have led all day, with a follower. I'm not THAT confident that I find the days as my best ones out there. - The awareness that, if something goes wrong, it is on me to get us out is stressful,m and I need to choose routes carefully that I KNOW I can deal with any issues. - I also don't enjoy the pressure of feeling I am not giving a "hard day's climbing" for my partner(if that seems the case - sometimes it can be, others not). I'm not a "ticking time bomb" sort of climber anyway. I DO like efficiency while on the climb; just not the running to tick the next, the next, the next. Depending on who I am climbing with, I enjoy my share of leading. If they are a solid leader at a harder grade, and just trying to "give me a pitch or two" - frankly, I'd rather just follow them all day. - I LIKE being a good partner. I have had many people tell me that they couldn't/wouldn't do some of the climbs they had done, with some other people they know. But they feel good with me on the other end. - I am climbing with a partner now, on road trip(though the van is broken down in Tucson, AZ right now....what will the future bring?). He leads several grades harder, but he is the most patient while I get pitches in, and sees it as a way for me to improve and be competent AT the higher grades. I enjoy my leads with him, even the ones I am swearing and whimpering on(not so sure he enjoys them though...). I think my best days climbing, as a leader, are when I am swinging leads with a person. But I don't think it is as simple as "men's lead head" and "women's lead head." I've seen very strong, very weak, and everything in between in both sexes. Whatever you do , if it makes you happy that is what is important. Swaping leads or whatever. It has nothing to do with the man or woman sex distinction either. I'm sorry about your van. I hope it gets fixed soon. When you have some time, check out Tony Robbins he is quite upbeat and a genius in his own right. It isn't that compact to explain in a sentence or a paragraph. Its not just about subliminal messages either. However, his success with many people in all walks of life is astounding. It will take you some time to understand and benefit from his information . The application is quite helpful and his theories , right on the mark of this thread. When you understand and read his work, or listen to his tapes, you will see the correlation.
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ubu
Apr 9, 2011, 6:50 PM
Post #139 of 190
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enigma wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: enigma wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: for a complete summary of all the best answers to the OP's question, see below. mar_leclerc wrote: I really just think it was sort of a ridiculous question in the first place... why lead? Because that is how climbing works. Hint: Read Tony Robbins, do you know what a subliminal message is? How does that work in relationship to the truth about leading for Men and Women? Strengths and Weakness ? That's what is ridiculous about the question to begin with. So what is the truth? What do you think the truth is? What sort of sub-conscious messages are men and women saying to each other about leading, and does it matter? Personally, for me, if someone wants to lead then that person should speak up and lead. If that person doesn't speak up and wants to lead then it's that person's fault for not speaking up. There is nothing subliminal about it. I prefer to chose partners who I can swap leads with. I love leading, but I need a rest at some point in the day and I look for people who can share the workload, male or female. So for me, again, there is nothing subliminal about it. I think if you're worrying about subliminal messages then you're choosing the wrong partners or you don't know how to communicate...oh, wait. Since you haven't read Tony Robbins , its impossible to explain to you all that he has written. Its not just subliminal messages, it is much more complicated way of thinking. Get a book or his tapes, maybe then you will understand about strengths and weakness, and what I am speaking about. He also has conferences and many famous top athletes are on the same page. Its impossible to discuss Tony Robbins with you if aren't familiar with his work. If you want to lead go right ahead, if I want to second on a harder climb , I can do that as well. If you want to swap leads, and you are happy that is good too. If someone wants to lead easy climbs and their partner is into that as well, that is their choice. Whether its a man or woman. You see I'm not arguing with you at all. Be happy and climb. Let others do the same. Heh. A Tony Robbins acolyte. Why am I not surprised.
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I_do
Apr 10, 2011, 5:05 PM
Post #140 of 190
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mar_leclerc wrote: I_do wrote: Have any more bullshit to spread? It's how it works for you, don't impose your ethics on what is and what's not climbing on others. Especially if you think gear needs to be placed on lead. Not all climbers care about 'sending' or climbing in 'good style', a lot of climbers, especially in my specific area are out there just to chill, top rope and have a lot of fun! I LOVE doing this too, if a rope is up on a climb my friend just led I will sometimes huck a TR lap on it... BUT, I don't then go around talking about how I onsighted or sent the route, and if I actually want to onsight, or send it proper, I pull the rope and lead it, placing all the gear on lead. I am not saying every HAS to lead to be a rock climber, I am saying that if the person gets to the point where they want to challenge themselves and try to actually 'send' climbs that they have start leading. At some point climbers start to get some sort of ambition, and as soon as they want to reach personal goals in climbing, they are probably going to have to start leading. I don't know any climbers with a ton of ambition that do not lead, or are not in the process of learning to lead, or at least setting goals about when they can start learning about lead climbing. If you do a climb you should be totally honest about how you did it.... 'yeah, I sent that but I TR'd it first I had to headpoint it' or, 'Yeah, I did lead it but I got my friend to pre-place all the gear for me'. I don't think top-roping, headpointing, or pink-pointing is 'bad' or 'not real climbing'... I do all of them myself and have plenty of fun. But when it comes down to it leading, ground up, plaing gear is unarguably the best style short of onsight soloing (which is extremely dangerous and highly NOT reccomended) and climbing in the best style you can is awesome! Wow thanks. I feel ashamed now. My three sentence snip did not deserve such a well thought out response. Fully agree, thanks for elaborating. Climb on!
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desertwanderer81
Apr 11, 2011, 2:55 AM
Post #141 of 190
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I am not surprised to see this stupid of a post from this particular poster. She has called me repeatedly despite me telling her repeatedly that I do not even live remotely near her and have no interest in climbing with er and has gone so far as to text me at 4am in the morning. I warn everyone to beware.
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guangzhou
Apr 11, 2011, 5:39 AM
Post #142 of 190
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It's funny how many people here lead everything according to what they write. I guess if you're sport climbing, that possible, when your partner is done, you pull the rope and lead the line too. Same with SIngle pitch trad routes. On the other hand, when climbing multipitch routes, the norm is 50% or the people lead, while the other 50% follow. (Top-rope). In some case, the same person does all the leading, but not always. Most parties prefer to leap-frog the leads.
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happiegrrrl
Apr 11, 2011, 4:10 PM
Post #143 of 190
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I would never say I led a route if I was clipping someone else's pre-placed gear. Part of leading on gear is the consideration of gear and how it builds the system. But I also don't really agree with calling the work of a Second Top-roping. Climb at the Gunks with some of our airy, thinly protected traverses!(Or climb with a leader who either thinks you can handle the risk if less pro on a traverse, or doesn't think to protect their poor, less string a climber, second. Top roping doesn't involve cleaning and racking gear, other than the occassional directional, either. The belayer on top-rope also doesn't often have the duties of the second as belayer either. I have had a lot of leaders tell me they took on a route with me as second, which they wouldn't have with some other partners(and I know others who have the same experinece). Can't say so much for the TR...
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donald949
Apr 11, 2011, 4:13 PM
Post #144 of 190
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enigma wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: enigma wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: for a complete summary of all the best answers to the OP's question, see below. mar_leclerc wrote: I really just think it was sort of a ridiculous question in the first place... why lead? Because that is how climbing works. Hint: Read Tony Robbins, do you know what a subliminal message is? How does that work in relationship to the truth about leading for Men and Women? Strengths and Weakness ? That's what is ridiculous about the question to begin with. So what is the truth? What do you think the truth is? What sort of sub-conscious messages are men and women saying to each other about leading, and does it matter? Personally, for me, if someone wants to lead then that person should speak up and lead. If that person doesn't speak up and wants to lead then it's that person's fault for not speaking up. There is nothing subliminal about it. I prefer to chose partners who I can swap leads with. I love leading, but I need a rest at some point in the day and I look for people who can share the workload, male or female. So for me, again, there is nothing subliminal about it. I think if you're worrying about subliminal messages then you're choosing the wrong partners or you don't know how to communicate...oh, wait. Since you haven't read Tony Robbins , its impossible to explain to you all that he has written. Its not just subliminal messages, it is much more complicated way of thinking. Get a book or his tapes, maybe then you will understand about strengths and weakness, and what I am speaking about. He also has conferences and many famous top athletes are on the same page. Its impossible to discuss Tony Robbins with you if aren't familiar with his work. If you want to lead go right ahead, if I want to second on a harder climb , I can do that as well. If you want to swap leads, and you are happy that is good too. If someone wants to lead easy climbs and their partner is into that as well, that is their choice. Whether its a man or woman. You see I'm not arguing with you at all. Be happy and climb. Let others do the same. If it is not possible to discuss this, why bother bringing the whole subject up in the first place?
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Apr 11, 2011, 6:10 PM
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donald949 wrote: enigma wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: enigma wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: for a complete summary of all the best answers to the OP's question, see below. mar_leclerc wrote: I really just think it was sort of a ridiculous question in the first place... why lead? Because that is how climbing works. Hint: Read Tony Robbins, do you know what a subliminal message is? How does that work in relationship to the truth about leading for Men and Women? Strengths and Weakness ? That's what is ridiculous about the question to begin with. So what is the truth? What do you think the truth is? What sort of sub-conscious messages are men and women saying to each other about leading, and does it matter? Personally, for me, if someone wants to lead then that person should speak up and lead. If that person doesn't speak up and wants to lead then it's that person's fault for not speaking up. There is nothing subliminal about it. I prefer to chose partners who I can swap leads with. I love leading, but I need a rest at some point in the day and I look for people who can share the workload, male or female. So for me, again, there is nothing subliminal about it. I think if you're worrying about subliminal messages then you're choosing the wrong partners or you don't know how to communicate...oh, wait. Since you haven't read Tony Robbins , its impossible to explain to you all that he has written. Its not just subliminal messages, it is much more complicated way of thinking. Get a book or his tapes, maybe then you will understand about strengths and weakness, and what I am speaking about. He also has conferences and many famous top athletes are on the same page. Its impossible to discuss Tony Robbins with you if aren't familiar with his work. If you want to lead go right ahead, if I want to second on a harder climb , I can do that as well. If you want to swap leads, and you are happy that is good too. If someone wants to lead easy climbs and their partner is into that as well, that is their choice. Whether its a man or woman. You see I'm not arguing with you at all. Be happy and climb. Let others do the same. If it is not possible to discuss this, why bother bringing the whole subject up in the first place? That is a question only the bold can answer
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blueeyedclimber
Apr 11, 2011, 6:42 PM
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enigma wrote: Whatever you do , if it makes you happy that is what is important. Swaping leads or whatever. It has nothing to do with the man or woman sex distinction either. Not that I'm surprised, but I just thought you should know that this post is in complete contradiction to your original post. Josh
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enigma
Apr 12, 2011, 11:35 PM
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I know it was a shot in the dark. However, I had hoped someone on rockclimbing.com was familiar with Tony Robbins. Even if you can't read, he has tapes, great information , there is relevance .
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Diphthong
Apr 12, 2011, 11:47 PM
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enigma wrote: I know it was a shot in the dark. However, I had hoped someone on rockclimbing.com was familiar with Tony Robbins. Even if you can't read, he has tapes, great information , there is relevance . OMG! I LOVE Bon Jovi!!!
(This post was edited by Diphthong on Apr 12, 2011, 11:48 PM)
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enigma
Apr 13, 2011, 11:08 AM
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happiegrrrl wrote: I would never say I led a route if I was clipping someone else's pre-placed gear. Part of leading on gear is the consideration of gear and how it builds the system. But I also don't really agree with calling the work of a Second Top-roping. Climb at the Gunks with some of our airy, thinly protected traverses!(Or climb with a leader who either thinks you can handle the risk if less pro on a traverse, or doesn't think to protect their poor, less string a climber, second. Top roping doesn't involve cleaning and racking gear, other than the occassional directional, either. The belayer on top-rope also doesn't often have the duties of the second as belayer either. I have had a lot of leaders tell me they took on a route with me as second, which they wouldn't have with some other partners(and I know others who have the same experinece). Can't say so much for the TR... I have noticed a trend it seems like the leaders who lead easier leads want to share leading . While the guys who climb harder seem okay with whatever! So I still have trouble understanding why I can't enjoy being a second on a 5.10 if my partner and leader is happy and stoked. Even on my longest climb 21 pitches where I was a second. I have my nut tool, get out the cams. 2nd. belay well. Why can't we all just be friends, and happy climbers??? Hmmn. If I want to lead, something easy, I will. If a guy wants to follow some 5.10 he can't lead , there's nothing wrong with that either. If a women leads 5.11's and her partner follows and is a guy who can't lead that hard, That's great too. If you and your partner want to swap leads , go right ahead. I can't believe there is no-one here that knows Tony Robbins tapes or books. Its so relevant to this discussion.
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Apr 13, 2011, 12:07 PM
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Posts: 5208
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enigma wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: I would never say I led a route if I was clipping someone else's pre-placed gear. Part of leading on gear is the consideration of gear and how it builds the system. But I also don't really agree with calling the work of a Second Top-roping. Climb at the Gunks with some of our airy, thinly protected traverses!(Or climb with a leader who either thinks you can handle the risk if less pro on a traverse, or doesn't think to protect their poor, less string a climber, second. Top roping doesn't involve cleaning and racking gear, other than the occassional directional, either. The belayer on top-rope also doesn't often have the duties of the second as belayer either. I have had a lot of leaders tell me they took on a route with me as second, which they wouldn't have with some other partners(and I know others who have the same experinece). Can't say so much for the TR... I have noticed a trend it seems like the leaders who lead easier leads want to share leading . While the guys who climb harder seem okay with whatever! So I still have trouble understanding why I can't enjoy being a second on a 5.10 if my partner and leader is happy and stoked. Even on my longest climb 21 pitches where I was a second. I have my nut tool, get out the cams. 2nd. belay well. Why can't we all just be friends, and happy climbers??? Hmmn. If I want to lead, something easy, I will. If a guy wants to follow some 5.10 he can't lead , there's nothing wrong with that either. If a women leads 5.11's and her partner follows and is a guy who can't lead that hard, That's great too. If you and your partner want to swap leads , go right ahead. I can't believe there is no-one here that knows Tony Robbins tapes or books. Its so relevant to this discussion. The problem with inductive reasoning is clear. When you continue to project from your specific without awareness of your limitations and influences, you will fail not only to incorporate new facts but you will generate scorn for your biases. In this case, because the male climbers you associate with all act with a particular bias, when you project that as a universal truth the idea is ridiculed.
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