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nebo
May 17, 2005, 12:22 AM
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Today (May 16, 2004) an organization in Southern California posted some chilling photos. See: http://www.thegardendiet.com/images/climb
The narrative with the photos describes the situation.
They depict a young woman free-soloing a 70-foot near vertical rock wall, with her daughter, aged 10 or less, free soloing with her. The rock looks rotten and the route looks about 5.5 or so. The mom and little girl were encouraged to free-solo by the father/husband, a man named "storm" who leads seminars and retreats about raw food vegan diets. He apparently has been climbing for 25 years. He also has apparently positioned himself as something of a guru, passing this type of climb off as a mystical/spiritual event.
To my mind, this is an outrageous example of child endangerment. Steps have been taken to contact protective services. However, I believe it may be helpful if members of the climbing community emailed this couple to try to penetrate their addled minds with some notion of responsibility. Mothers speaking to Jinjee (the mother) may be particularly helpful. If you agree, please email Storm and Jinjee at: info@thegardendiet.com
I suggest including a brief synopsis of your own experience as a climber, and other detials that would help them understand why you are qualified to have an opinion on the matter (for example, you may have raised children that lived past their 10th birthday).
A flood of emails may save a life or two.
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cosmiccragsman
May 17, 2005, 12:57 AM
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Thanks nebo
I emailed them. Storm is definitely a jerk. Someone should turn him in to
C.P.S.
cosmiccragsman
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gwenhwyvar
May 17, 2005, 1:11 AM
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Wow, these people are nuts. I looked at the pictures the link was given for and that's just not safe. It's one thing if they want to endanger their own lives, but it's another to endanger their daughter like that. I'm not sure that legal action needs to be taken against them (although it might), but people definitely need to write in to let these people know what's up. I'm a noob, so I don't think they'll take anything I say seriously, but if some older and wiser people could write in and explain that making your ten year old daughter climb without rope (even a 5.5) is a horrible idea, that would be great. If you read the text under the pictures it sounds like these people were intentionally taunting death. The scariest quote I found was: "Its not about today being a good day to live. Its about today being a good day to die. Its about today being a good day to do something really big, to have an adventure, to throw your useless life away." This is the husband talking to his wife, telling her why she and their ten year old daughter should climb without a rope. Please, somebody verbally slap them around. This is ridiculous.
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coldclimb
May 17, 2005, 1:19 AM
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And what about the part where the daughter is "pretending" to be scared? :shock:
Something is WRONG with those people.
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shorty
May 17, 2005, 1:22 AM
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Nebo,
Given that this is your first post and that you have not filled out a personal profile, it is challenging to determine your involvement with this story. But you have certainly picked a website where the concept of free soloing can draw an audience.
IMO, free soloing should be done only by those climbers with the proper skills, experience, and understanding to evaluate the risks. I seriously doubt the woman and child are in this category. I would shudder to think that people I know and care for would be doing such a thing. However, I also respect people's right to choose to do just about anything they desire (within limits to society's rules, of course).
So here's the point of my rambling. I don't know these people. Long ago I started to realize I can't save the world, the whales, the what-ever-itz-bekistan tree frog, or most of the people in my home town. But I can make some impact on the people in my family, at my place of work, in my circle of friends, and that I love. If you truly wish to change the actions of this family, may I be so bold to recommend that the people closest to them -- whose opinions they trust -- will have the most impact. I doubt that e-mails from a number of unknown climbing bums will do much more than clog up their computers.
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cyanamid
May 17, 2005, 1:24 AM
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Maybe its just my eyes... but look at the first and last picture specifically, notice anything funny about the trees? or the vegetation growing out of the rock? like perhaps the pictures need to be rotated 20 degrees clockwise?
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 1:33 AM
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Good point about not disclosing where I'm coming from.
I don't personally know these people at all. But I started climbing in 1971, taught climbing and guided in the Sierras for over a decade, and have witnessed and had plenty of close calls.
I have also free-soloed, when I was younger and in my prime. I remember one incident where I was free-soloing on Gibralter Rock in Santa Barbara--this would have been around 1978 or so--and someone gave me a good high-volume scolding, yelling at me from the road while I was climbing. We had a heated discussion afterwards; I was certain that I knew what I was doing and was safe. He was on the S&R crew and was enraged that I was taking such a stupid risk. I didn't stop soloing, and have soloed on first ascent (a 5.9) and up to 5.10--but that's all long in the past.
I have written guidebooks, trained guides, led many peak climbs...
...and have raised my own children.
You can see immediately what triggers me in these photos. I generally keep to myself, don't poke my nose into other people's business, am quite slow to anger. That's why I haven't been active on these boards. It's why I haven't left much of a personal profile. But this, IMHO, is over the top.
My guess is that Storm has passed himself off as some kind of guru, and his young wife Jinjee totally buys it. I can't imagine a mother allowing this kind of risk to her child unless she is in some kind of deluded trance state. I don't think one letter from me will be enough to break the trance. That's why I hit on the idea of asking the climbing community at large to respond. A flood of common sense may be enough to break the dam of stupidity, where a the trickle of single letter would not.
And this is serious--Raven (the little girl) survived the day the photos were shot. Did she survive today? Will she survive tomorrow? Does Jinjee understand the concept of never seeing her daughter's smile or hearing her laughter again?
Even if we write from rage, fundamentally this about compassion.
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 1:37 AM
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I did notice that the photos appeared to be rotated, but I wasn't sure. Raven's posture on the "bulge" photo seems correct for the apparent angle. Sometimes downward shots can skew appearances.
At any rate, you die just as well falling from a 60-degree face as you do from a 90-degree face. So I hope that if this face is slightly lower angle than appears that we don't accept it as justification for endangering the child. Nor should we accept Jinjee's rationale that Storm has extensively trained the child. How many of best-trained friends have we lost to a moment of carelessness, a loose hold, an unforeseen event?
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shorty
May 17, 2005, 1:39 AM
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In reply to: Maybe its just my eyes... but look at the first and last picture specifically, notice anything funny about the trees? or the vegetation growing out of the rock? like perhaps the pictures need to be rotated 20 degrees clockwise?
My warped sense of humor is suddenly recalling the old Batman series -- the camera angles for the fights ("pow", "bam", "zowie") and the shots of Batman and Robin "climbing" the rope hand-over-hand as an actor does a cameo appearance out a window.
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cyanamid
May 17, 2005, 1:42 AM
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Nebo - I can see what triggers the upset response. If you have photoshop, or most any photo software, grab the first and last pics. Rotate them 25 - 30 degrees to the right. Suddenly that near vertical rock wall is not so vertical. Seriously, if it weren't for the copyright issues I'd post the edited photos myself. Its probably 4th class, I doubt if the "climb" would reach 5th class status.
Not that I am condoning the activity, even the appearance of letting a child do something that dangerous is insanely stupid. Realize though, that the pictures were obviously "dramatized" for effect.
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lostdog
May 17, 2005, 2:01 AM
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it's funny... just earlier today i was remarking to my brother how stupid people are. i kindy felt guity afterwards...now, i'm glad to have found reassurance...fuckin' idiots!!
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 2:05 AM
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I'm a little worried that this discussion will become a detective game to figure out what the correct angle is. Let's agree that the photos have been shot off-angle to dramatize the effect. In fact, let's agree that the route may be no more than 4th class.
And then let's remember what the original concern was, and ask if it's still valid. Are these parents putting themselves and their daughter at serious risk in an irresponsible way? If so, let's each individually decide if we feel we are authentically motivated to give the parents some advice, scolding, guidance, or a dose of rage--whichever is honest for who we are, as individuals. If so, please write to them.
I believe it can make a difference, a contribution toward reducing the risk for little Raven.
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powen
May 17, 2005, 2:11 AM
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It appears the pictures were dramatized a bit... Along with the accomplishments:
"He developed many of the methods used in training for freestyle mountain climbing although this is not a commonly taught sport."
I try to be well read on the basics of climbing... you know, John Long, Freedom of the Hills... Am I missing the "Are You Ready to Die Today: Free-Soloing for the Vegan Soul" by STORM (Insert Moses-like voice from above)?
I mean seriously, if this guy really did develop a lot of methods of training for free soloing, I would love to see that. Maybe I've just missed that tidbit.
Yeah, maybe.
Cough.
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codhands
May 17, 2005, 2:29 AM
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Most stupid thing I have seen in a while. I'm glad they got their mojo on or whatever but i would seriously like to do some play fighting with "storm" to improve his raw veg synapses. The lamest part is that if those two had taken a header this guy storm probably would have been like, "They ended this wasteful crappy life and found their bliss or something. Just a speculation. cs
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thegreytradster
May 17, 2005, 2:31 AM
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You might be interested in the reaction of the "climbing comunity to your publicity stunt.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/88965
Lots of thoughts on this one.
First of all, my son followed me up the White Maiden Direct at Tahquitz at about the same age. Just the two of us. But, I'd done the route maybe half a dozen times, he was , (and still is) exceptionaly mature for his age, had a helmet, and had already demonstrated the abillity to catch me on a short lead fall.
I still approached it as a solo and although there are many who might throw the accusitory barb, the situation was under control. My only regret was that the whole excursion was right at his young endurance limit. Comments he's made in his 20's though indicate that it was an extremely formative event in his life and I'm glad we shared the experience.
I see this as something completely different. This is an attempt to commercialy capitalize on puting his child and spouse in a completely uncontrolled and dangerous situation. This is as irresponsable as if I'd taken my son along on some of my youthfull explorations of 3rd and 4th class choss in the San Gabriels, (long before he was born). There probably are camera tricks involved. That doesn't eliminate the objective dangers still present, (choss) and the lack of any protection, at the minimum a helmet. Disregard for the saftey of ones progeny happens often out of ignorance of the dangers or sometimes just social convention.
Making it a commercial event is criminal, (or should be)
The guy is a self serving nut!
CC Rockclimbing .com
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teamkonarider
May 17, 2005, 2:52 AM
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Wow amzing what emotionally weak people will so these days
Im shocked
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majid_sabet
May 17, 2005, 4:58 AM
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NICE photos, looking at it as investigator, I did not know plants and trees grow at 30 degrees off set, real or photoshop made, the game is stupid, all you need is one accident and soon after county, state or national park will close the area for all, climbers or walkers will be prohibited from accessing the boulder or the area, can you stop them, the answer is no, not now not ever, however you should step in and tell them that what they are doing is dangerous, if mom or dad give you a hard time just call 911 , now I would not say that to bunch of boulder rates, they will kick your ass.
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storm
May 17, 2005, 5:07 AM
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To the Rockclimbing Forum
From Storm (Raven's Dad)
I have been doing this type of work for over thirty years. And I have been hearing the same thing from the rock climbing community not the whole community just parts of it. I have worked with hundreds of kids and never had one person fall. This is not something that I approach lightly and I totally understand your feelings. Even though I don't agree with them.
My oldest son (Snow)is now twenty nine and he start climbing when he was two years old. He has never fallen and through my work with him other parents wanted me to work with their children too. This led to a full time adventure school that lasted for over five years from 1980 to 1985. In the Ojai Area. We did heavy weather sailing on a forty foot boat, we did hang gliding and we did scuba diving, as well as mountain climbing. Every week for five years we did one of the above activities with never an injury. I have been written up in newspapers and had children referred to me by the probation department. I have worked closely with private schools and I also worked with gang kids and other kids at risk. Had huge sucesses with getting them off of drugs and turning young lives around.
One of the main problems is that our kids never have to put anything on the line so they never get a real sense of who they are or who their parents are for that matter because they never see them in action.
You are so quick to point your finger and say that this is too dangerous, but you have no idea how much training and study went into the series of climbs that we did. It took Jinjee 10 years to reach a point where she could flow up a 7 story face. Raven climbed it first with ropes and then she climbed it without ropes but with me right behind her and her last climb will be solo. It may not happen until she is in her twenties it is totally up to her. When I show her the posts on this site and asked her if at any time she was scared her answer was "Not really." One solo climb (Gilbraltar Rock in Santa Barbara) that I did with my son at the age of 17 he had to back off of and then last week he went back and finished it at the age of twenty nine. It was huge for him to come back after being spooked for 11 years.
I have climbed a 20 story face three times without ropes (Sepse Gorge Ending Crack) and have climbed Topa Topa (six thousand feet) five times without ropes. Most of it was rotten rock.
It wasn't a commercial event this is what we do all of the time. I was just sharing one of the things that I think make us different as a family. We live and climb in the Ojai area and most of the rock in the back country is rotten and after a while you learn to develop a feeling for which rocks are sound.
I wish that there was some way that I could share how bonded we are as a family. All five of my children where born at home with just Jinjee and myself. I got a lot of heat for that also. All of my kids started climbing small rocks at around the age of two. And have a skill level that is way beyond what anyone would believe who didn't actually know them. We are not weekend warriors who go to the mountain on the weekend once a month. We live in the mountains and climb just about eveyday. The climbs are all round our house this is what we do. The bottom line to all of this is that they are at much more of a risk driving down off of the mountain to town in a box that is made of metal and glass filled with gasoline traveling at 70 miles a hour than they are doing these climbs that they have been doing all of their lives.
So I get the feeling that what are you really trying to say is. That I shouldn't take my kids sailing because the boat might sink. I should not let them climb trees because the branch might break, I shouldn't let them ride a bike but it is ok if I drive around with them in a car because that does not offend anyone and everybody does it, even though thousands of kids die every year. I disagree with the position that you have taken. I think that we should teach our kids to look life right in the eye without flinching.
All the best
storm
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 5:31 AM
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Hi Storm, I see you checked in. What do you have to say? Anything to enlighten us?
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storm
May 17, 2005, 5:49 AM
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Hi Nebo, see above.
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majid_sabet
May 17, 2005, 6:01 AM
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http://www.voea.vic.edu.au/issues/riskmanagement/chris_loynes.htm
http://www.vglaw.com/html/or_kids_liability.shtml
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pendereki
May 17, 2005, 6:03 AM
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I would also like to welcome Storm to the forum. I like your backyard!
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crotch
May 17, 2005, 6:07 AM
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Please arrest all the Anasazi for letting their kids live in cliffs. Oh yeah, take kids away from anyone who let's them ride horses, go toproping, or get sunburned. All these activities are too damn dangerous for my taste.
Thanks,
NOOB
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maculated
May 17, 2005, 7:41 AM
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I'm torn here. And I don't think I have any right to post to something this personal, but I think I may have something to offer to both sides of this coin.
Storm's points that he offers as validity have some merit to them: remember when you first went climbing? Didn't everyone think you were crazy? Isn't it nutso that we encourage our children to take up this activity? Storm's not someone I would consider to be a part of this climbing community - he isn't aware of terminology, so I have to assume that he is operating at the 1960s or earlier level of climbing. People did that then, too. He's not exactly standing on the shoulders of giants here, he's going about it John Muir style.
But the community's points are valid, too. Putting wife and daughter in harm's way, making it a "celebratory moment" on a promotional web page, angling the camera to make it appear even more dangerous than it is (because when I was wee, I would scamper up that grade, too, to my parents' consternation).
At what point are we putting children in harm's way to achieve an end that fits our idea of a good lifestyle? This is an ideology thing.
Those of us who hold tightly to the dominant culture's ideals of what is appropriate (perhaps it is TRing with your kids, or else it is driving them to soccer games) and what is not will not be able to see what those of us who say that whatever it is that feeds you or is a part of you (crotch had a good point about the Anasazi . . . CPS would have been called on them if they'd been around).
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healyje
May 17, 2005, 10:53 AM
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Storm,
I share a lot of your general beliefs relative to challenging youth, have worked in stress-challenge programs, trained many young climbers, and done many "adventure" activities as well along with climbing for 30 years; but we part company over how and when we choose to apply our personal "influence" with others - family or otherwise. And the principal difference from my perspective is the impact of such "influence" on decision-making.
You imparting your love of adventure, challenge, and self-responsibility is noble on many fronts, but crosses the line in my view when you then don't allow others to arrive at decisions on their own. And let me be clear about the distinction between "arriving" at decisions and "making" decisions. It would appear to me that in your world view you are right [if not righteous] and justified in bringing or driving folks to decision points as "rites of passage" versus letting them find there own way - and in [most] professional and parental roles I understand this. Where it becomes a problem for me as a climber, parent, and educator is when you start picking the time and place for a "rite of passage" such as the climb you've presented on your website.
In my worldview I try to set the stage for others to have the spirit, capabilities, confidence, and wisdom to know when it's time for them to step up to a challenge - but when it comes to free soloing of any kind I respect and allow each and every individual to find themselves at, come to, or otherwise simply arrive at such climbing experiences on their own. And to be frank and up front here, free soloing is too personal an experience for me to ever consider externalizing it to others for any purpose.
So the idea and precedent that free soloing would be externalized and held up as a [formalized/socialized] "rite of passage" or maturation/educational tool of any kind is somewhat disquieting to me (it kind of sullies the purity of the whole deal, sort of like deciding your kid shouldn't be a virgin anymore...) and I also simply believe you overstep your bounds and roles as an educator and parent when it comes to deciding when others are ready to free solo whether you are right or not - that somewhere in the hurried confluence of passion, purpose, love, lifestyle, belief, and business you might want to reconsider how and why you influence others.
Joseph
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tradman
May 17, 2005, 11:32 AM
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I don't get it.
If this is genuinely dangerous, then who on earth would put their child in that position?
If it isn't dangerous, then how are the supposed spiritual benefits gained?
It strikes me that there is little middle ground between the two aspects that "storm" is claiming for this experience. It either has all the spiritual content of putting on a pair of trousers or it's an idiotic and reckless endangerment of a minor.
As to which it is, let me ask you as climbers: if someone had been climbing for 25 years, would they use the common slang terminology of climbing such as, "free soloing", "mountaineering" or "trad climbing" and use common grading terms for context, or would they use a load of made-up technical terms which "sound right" but have no meaning?
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vanclimber
May 17, 2005, 1:18 PM
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Hey Storm, why not put it all on the line by biting into a thick top choice Canadian Steak?
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j_ung
May 17, 2005, 1:55 PM
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In reply to: To the Rockclimbing Forum From Storm (Raven's Dad) I have been doing this type of work for over thirty years. And I have been hearing the same thing from the rock climbing community not the whole community just parts of it. I have worked with hundreds of kids and never had one person fall. This is not something that I approach lightly and I totally understand your feelings. Even though I don't agree with them. My oldest son (Snow)is now twenty nine and he start climbing when he was two years old. He has never fallen and through my work with him other parents wanted me to work with their children too. This led to a full time adventure school that lasted for over five years from 1980 to 1985. In the Ojai Area. We did heavy weather sailing on a forty foot boat, we did hang gliding and we did scuba diving, as well as mountain climbing. Every week for five years we did one of the above activities with never an injury. I have been written up in newspapers and had children referred to me by the probation department. I have worked closely with private schools and I also worked with gang kids and other kids at risk. Had huge sucesses with getting them off of drugs and turning young lives around. One of the main problems is that our kids never have to put anything on the line so they never get a real sense of who they are or who their parents are for that matter because they never see them in action. You are so quick to point your finger and say that this is too dangerous, but you have no idea how much training and study went into the series of climbs that we did. It took Jinjee 10 years to reach a point where she could flow up a 7 story face. Raven climbed it first with ropes and then she climbed it without ropes but with me right behind her and her last climb will be solo. It may not happen until she is in her twenties it is totally up to her. When I show her the posts on this site and asked her if at any time she was scared her answer was "Not really." One solo climb (Gilbraltar Rock in Santa Barbara) that I did with my son at the age of 17 he had to back off of and then last week he went back and finished it at the age of twenty nine. It was huge for him to come back after being spooked for 11 years. I have climbed a 20 story face three times without ropes (Sepse Gorge Ending Crack) and have climbed Topa Topa (six thousand feet) five times without ropes. Most of it was rotten rock. It wasn't a commercial event this is what we do all of the time. I was just sharing one of the things that I think make us different as a family. We live and climb in the Ojai area and most of the rock in the back country is rotten and after a while you learn to develop a feeling for which rocks are sound. I wish that there was some way that I could share how bonded we are as a family. All five of my children where born at home with just Jinjee and myself. I got a lot of heat for that also. All of my kids started climbing small rocks at around the age of two. And have a skill level that is way beyond what anyone would believe who didn't actually know them. We are not weekend warriors who go to the mountain on the weekend once a month. We live in the mountains and climb just about eveyday. The climbs are all round our house this is what we do. The bottom line to all of this is that they are at much more of a risk driving down off of the mountain to town in a box that is made of metal and glass filled with gasoline traveling at 70 miles a hour than they are doing these climbs that they have been doing all of their lives. So I get the feeling that what are you really trying to say is. That I shouldn't take my kids sailing because the boat might sink. I should not let them climb trees because the branch might break, I shouldn't let them ride a bike but it is ok if I drive around with them in a car because that does not offend anyone and everybody does it, even though thousands of kids die every year. I disagree with the position that you have taken. I think that we should teach our kids to look life right in the eye without flinching. All the best storm
I think you're a kook.
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landgolier
May 17, 2005, 2:03 PM
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Team,
Let this one go. I've dealt with a lot of people like this over the years, contrarianism is their motivation and we're just helping to get them off. If a vegan diet was the norm, they'd be advocating cow's blood as the one true healthy way of eating and living. Let them do what they want, they're not harming you, and even if one of them does get hurt and bring negative publicity on the sport, we've got the support in place to counter it and show the public that 99% of us don't do things that way. This doesn't need to turn into an ethics debate, or an attempt at a public shaming, or another thread on free soloing, or anything at all. Please, let's just end this, and let these people go their way and us ours.
-T
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socalclimber
May 17, 2005, 2:06 PM
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In reply to: As to which it is, let me ask you as climbers: if someone had been climbing for 25 years, would they use the common slang terminology of climbing such as, "free soloing", "mountaineering" or "trad climbing" and use common grading terms for context, or would they use a load of made-up technical terms which "sound right" but have no meaning?
I must confess that this was one of the very first things that got my attention. While I appreciate the need to push kids, this is just irresponsible in my opinion. I don't think anyone is questioning how bonded he and his family are, but that he is putting young children in harms way.
Let's also not ignore the fact he instructed his wife to climb close behind the daughter in case she slips or falls. Really bad advice.
Maybe he hasn't had an accident yet, but it will only take one, and the shit is gonna hit the fan, big time.
Really scary.
Robert
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edge
May 17, 2005, 2:22 PM
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Storm, you need only click on my profile to see where I stand on kids and climbing.
I think, personally, that you know nothing about either.
Irresponsible, irreplaceable, illegitimate father status. Word.
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t-dog
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May 17, 2005, 2:34 PM
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heh, the climbing looks about as bad as the downclimb off of Taquitz 8^)
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mburke225
May 17, 2005, 2:44 PM
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I can't believe no one else has commented on this. Look at the first photo. Now look at the footwear on the mother. Now look at her foot positioning on the rock. If this really were a fifth class route, she would be having serious problems. Add to this mix a seeming lack of any knowledge of technique or climbing terms, it's pretty safe to say this is a fourth class route.
Now the question: Should a 11 year old be on a 4th class route? Not having any kids I would guess it would depend on the kids background. But I will say I've watched plenty of parents relax as there kids climb trees. Seems about as safe to me. I have also watched as non- climbing parents follow there young children up a 4th class gully at a local climbing spot. Never seemed wrong to me.
The fact that this guy is coming to the table and spraying about how risky the activities that his children engage in are makes him an idiot. But if the activities aren't truely risky then he's just somebody screaming in the wind.
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rgold
May 17, 2005, 2:50 PM
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An annotated reading of the site:
In reply to: Storm's philosophy is that laying your life on the line makes you a better person.
Apparently, laying other people's life on the line makes you a better person too.
In reply to: And maybe if I climbed it would help with the respect issue that is coming up with my 11 going on 30 year old daughter. Mostly I'm tired of being looked at as the "wuss" in the family.
Laying your life on the line as a way to solve everyday relationship and poor self-image problems. This has the added benefit that if you or your disprespectful daughter die, the problems are also solved.
On the other hand, if one or both of you end up merely paraplegic, your relationship and self-image problems are just beginning.
In reply to: As we were hiking to the mountain Storm decided that the scene would be better as a mother-daughter climb. "No way" I said as usual. But Storm said "Its not about today being a good day to live. Its about today being a good day to die. Its about today being a good day to do something really big, to have an adventure, to throw your useless life away". It took a good deal more banter from Raven and Storm and I thought OK, I'll do it.
A carefully considered decision arrived at in a supportive and low-pressure environment.
In reply to: And stay close behind Raven because if she falls on you from too far above you she'll knock you off the mountain
This from the guy who says there's no possibility of the kid falling. And his wife, who has never done this before and is stuggling at the edge of self-control, is supposed to suddenly achieve a level of competence and superhuman adherence that will enable her to not only hang on but also catch a falling child. Boy is she ever in line for better personhood.
In reply to: She has climbed this once before with ropes. Today we are climbing freestyle (no ropes). She's pretending to be really scared.
The girl, plastered flat against low-angle rock stretching high for the biggest hold, is doing a masterful job of faking fear by violating every principle of safe and competent movement. And with that compromised body position on questionable rock, cleverly adopted to convey the fake fear, comes a a greatly increased liklihood of falling. Nice trick, kid.
In reply to: Storm says "don't let her get too far ahead."
Now why would he be saying that? She isn't going to fall because she's had so much practice in the back yard, and she isn't really afraid either, right?
In reply to: When we got to the top I was just happy to be alive!
No kidding.
In reply to: I had to use "magic" (our own ability beyond that which we usually tap) to get up that mountain. And now I had access to that magic in everyday life to do things a little better and a little easier.
Forget being a better person. Lay your life on the line to make your day go just a bit smoother. And ps: replace "magic" with "luck" and you'll be a lot closer to reality.
-------------
Climbers are in a tricky position criticizing other risk-takers. A lot of climbers take their kids climbing and so expose them to risks too, because climbing cannot be made completely safe. The difference between such parental activities and Storm's is one of risk intensity, but all such parents find it possible to justify the risks they choose to expose their children to.
From my perspective, Storm is somehow able to brow-beat his submissive family into taking extreme risks for absurdly intangible personal gains. But there's no reasoning with him, he is clearly in posession of revealed truth.
Perhaps we should turn communal outrage into quiet introspection and ask whether, when, and how many times we have pushed a loved one beyond their personal tolerance for risk, ask whether we have put a child, one completely unable to understand the nature or quality of the dangers involved, in harms way because the activity is one that gratifies us.
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tradman
May 17, 2005, 3:09 PM
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Thanks rgold, that's a thoughtful breakdown.
I'd only add how sad I think it is that the activity we here get such and incredible range of rushes, emotions, highs and lows from can be twisted so far beyond recognition that it the activity itself becomes an act of abuse and the reward becomes a pseudo-spiritual mumbo-jumbo hocus-pocus a million miles from the satisfaction we all know can come from it.
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photon
May 17, 2005, 3:10 PM
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sounds like a kook to me but you know what they are barely even 4th classing in those photos
LIVE & LET LIVE
worry about yourselves you co-dependent freaks
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graniteboy
May 17, 2005, 3:13 PM
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I wrote these guys a scolding email, too.
In 30 years of climbing and guiding and freesoloing, I've seen a lot of stupid and dangerous stuff that people have exposed their kids or unwitting spouse to. But this one ranks right up there with the worst of them.
Using a kid freesoloing choss to promote the sale of your damned book. The words "child exploitation" come to mind.
Anyone called Child protective services yet?
If not, I'd be happy to. If the kid loves climbing, which she probably does, she needs to grow up in a family where "daddy" isn't endangering her by using her as an advertisement.
Freesoloing is for grownups.
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reno
May 17, 2005, 3:14 PM
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In reply to: Hey Storm, why not put it all on the line by biting into a thick top choice Canadian Steak?
Best reply yet.
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organic
May 17, 2005, 3:18 PM
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In reply to: sounds like a kook to me but you know what they are barely even 4th classing in those photos LIVE & LET LIVE worry about yourselves you co-dependent freaks
Live and Let live? they might not live that is the point. and uh what does this have to do with codependency? And I am sure you would let your 10 year old kid 4th class 70 feet?
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corpse
May 17, 2005, 3:18 PM
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This all sounds like self promotion. Less face it, lots of climbers are veg heads or vegans, and have plenty of friends that are too :)
I will be the first to say - maybe nebo is actually storm, or a friend, and joined to post this outrage to get further publicity for their "way", to support "their cause".. And the more people get outraged, the more they pass it around, the more exposure they get. Remember bonzai kittens? With a little photo altercation and good wording, people went insane and called in the feds, and it was a big hoax.
I'm not saying this is necessarily a "hoax", but my gut is this post is all carefully crafted to generate hits and publicity.. Maybe it will get huge and make it's way in a few local papers, or by some stretch "Peculiar News" as the "extreme mountain family".
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 3:26 PM
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Hi, interesting speculation that maybe I'm actually Storm. I would not have predicted that. I'm not.
Here's the letter I wrote to Storm.
Storm and Jinjee:
I just looked at the photos of Raven and Jinjee free-soloing.
I have climbed for 34 years. I taught climbing and guided for about a dozen of those. When I was in my prime I occasionally indulged in some free soloing. So I know what I'm looking at in these photos. Poor-quality rock, about 5.5 or 5.6 difficulty. About 5 times higher than is needed for a fatal fall.
Jinjee is apparently comforted that Storm has extensively trained Raven, and that Raven has previously climbed the route (perhaps many times) roped. Jinjee may not be familiar with the extensive literature on climbing accidents. If she was she would realize that even the best-trained, most experienced climbers can (and sometimes do) die, frequently on easier, oft-repeated routes that are well below their abilities. I remember one of my early lessons, as a young climber in Yosemite Valley in the 70s. One of the best woman climbers in the world had just finished Middle Cathedral North Buttress, and was soloing the easy (4th or low 5th) slabs at the top. Nobody knows why, but she fell. She's been permanently dead since then.
All it takes is one moment of loss of concentration, one loose hold, one bird suddenly exploding out of a crack into your face, one random bit of rockfall...you get the idea.
Jinjee, as a mother, something inside you must be screaming, "this is wrong." Listen that voice. Forget about the good day to die--that's a nice quote from a cool movie. Today is a good day to live, and to protect the precious lives of your children.
Storm, you are trying to be responsible by transcending the limitation of our culture's approach to parenting/husbanding and teaching and how we live. Great. But in this instance, you step far over the line. This event reveals a deep flaw in your learning. It is time for some serious self-examination. Hang up your guru robes for a few years and find a good teacher.
Both of you, take a moment and do a little visualization: You are in your beautiful home, and you turn the corner into the room where you expect to see the brilliant smile of your daughter, as you have a thousand times before. But today there is no smile. For one slip permanently took her from your lives. What would you have done differently?
Jinjee, the climb was a significant accomplishment for you and I'm glad you survived it. Nevertheless, recognize that it was a crap shoot, a risk beyond reason, and that for the sake of your children who need you, it should not be repeated. All the great vegan raw eating health regimen in the world is of no use to you or your children if either or you they are dead.
May Raven thrive and become the next Lynn Hill. May you learn to appropriately balance your neo-shamanism and spiritual practice with the demands of parenting in the here-and-now, real world, people-really-die-when-they-fall-even-though-they-didn't-plan-to-fall planet on which we live.
M. Amos Clifford
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storm
May 17, 2005, 3:37 PM
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Hey this is Storm again
I have taken the time to read all of the different post and I'm really amazed at the level of response. I'm not part of the Rockclimbing community and I had no idea it was so big. Everybody for the most part seems so self righteous in their expert opinions. And to tell the truth if anyone of you came to my door and said I a climbing expert and I don't use ropes and I want to take your kids climbing I would turn you down using the same view points expressed on this forum.
I'm a film maker now I use to teach rock climbing in the back country of Ojai. I have a lot of pictures of climbs that we use to do and I also have some footage from the last five years of climbs that I have done with people.
Most of the climbs that I do with people are what I call mental climbs. What I mean by that is, the climb itself is really not very hard so the battle takes place in the mind. That is the climb that you see Raven and her mother doing. One of the problems that I had as a film maker is getting the angle right so as to create a since of height and drama. This film is not meant to be a documentary or a how to on rock climbing. And on more than one occasion I have told people not to try this without professional help, and I have steered them to rock climbing schools.
Most of the really big climbs that we did we did not have cameras. And a lot of the time when we did we would be really high up, but when we looked at the footage it would look like we were just 10 feet off the ground.
I don't teach rock climbing any more after five years I totally burnt out. The only thing that I do now is work with my kids in mental type of climbing where the risks are very low. I feel that it takes just as much courage to climb a mental rock as it does to solo a big face.
I'm fifty six years old and I have totally retired from solo climbing big faces. My son is 29 years old and he has totally retired from climbing big faces he announced his retirement two weeks ago after doing a climb that had spooked him for eleven years. I can't even tell you how glad I was to hear that he had retired.
Even though the film I'm making has rock climbing in it. It is not a film about rock climbing it is a film about people.
In closing I would like to say that as of this writing one out of three of our kids is obese. And one thousand people a day die in America from obesity related diseases. This is totally preventive, and this is where your focus and anger should be. It is where mine is. That is what my site is really all about.
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dynosore
May 17, 2005, 3:40 PM
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So he advocates free soloing and vegan diet. "You won't live long, but you could have"
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jt512
May 17, 2005, 3:47 PM
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In reply to: Team, Let this one go. I've dealt with a lot of people like this over the years, contrarianism is their motivation and we're just helping to get them off. If a vegan diet was the norm, they'd be advocating cow's blood as the one true healthy way of eating and living. Let them do what they want, they're not harming you, and even if one of them does get hurt and bring negative publicity on the sport, we've got the support in place to counter it and show the public that 99% of us don't do things that way. This doesn't need to turn into an ethics debate, or an attempt at a public shaming, or another thread on free soloing, or anything at all. Please, let's just end this, and let these people go their way and us ours. -T
Either that, or take effective action, such as reporting them to Child Protective Services. This thread is not going to change anything.
-Jay
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 3:54 PM
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One other bit in response to the publicity stunt notion; at first I was so enraged that I did consider calling local TV stations in Bakersfield and Ventura County. I imagine they might have jumped on it. But I restrained myself precisely because I didn't want to stir up a media storm--as the PR people say, any publicity is good publicity. I sincerely do NOT want that for this guy. He'd probably turn it into a million bucks.
I have, however, called Ventura County CPS (in my past I have been a mandated reporter; I'm not now, but some sense of responsibility lingers). I'm not confident that they will respond--you speak with a low-level functionary who, in a bored voice, says she will pass the information along to her supervisor. Multiple calls might be best. Google Ventura County Health and Human Services Agency.
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jpdreamer
May 17, 2005, 3:58 PM
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I've hiked on trails that wereof a similar danger, where if you tripped and fell off the trail you were in big trouble and could quite possibly die. Even one wrong step at the wrong moment, and bam it would be all over, but I hardly ever see people get up in arms about letting a ten year old do such a thing, even alone.
I mean it is just a sidewalk.
As a suburbanite, I feel those who subject their children to such incredible dangers as riding the subway should have their children taken away by CPS. It's reckless endangerment, there are no safety rails to prevent people from falling in front of a moving train, even one small misstep and the child could fall and LOSE THEIR LIFE!!!!
That said I would never push someone to do something with that level of risk.
Edited to add:
For a more direct comparison, rappelling (Yeah I can't spell) is considerably more dangerous than scrambling up 3rd and 4th class terrain. Would you be as up in arms if he was allowing his kid to rappell without a backup, considering that she was proficient with the skill and did use a backup while she was learning?
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shakylegs
May 17, 2005, 3:59 PM
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In reply to: Either that, or take effective action, such as reporting them to Child Protective Services. This thread is not going to change anything. -Jay
If only for the use of names such as Snow, Storm, Raven, etc.
It's like American Gladiators, or the Phoenix family.
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graniteboy
May 17, 2005, 4:34 PM
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I just got an email reply from "Storm" or whatever his real name is....
He bragged about how he is a very talented climber because he soloed some silly a$$ed 5.7 in sespe gorge, and that makes him a good enough climber to judge when his daughter is ready to freesolo chossy rock. Sheesh....
Where I come from (Truckee) bragging about 5.7 freesolos will get you laughed at and patted on the head like a puppy....I once had a DOG who freesoloed a couple 5.7 moves from time to time. And I don't think Ol' Rex was a good enough climber to be making decisions on when a kiddie should be soloing.
This man "storm" is an idiot, and needs a wake up call from the D.A. Maybe a little jail time will wake him up.
I emailed child protective services. You should do the same.
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photon
May 17, 2005, 4:36 PM
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organic said,
"Live and Let live? they might not live that is the point. and uh what does this have to do with codependency? And I am sure you would let your 10 year old kid 4th class 70 feet?"
you don't know what co-dependency is obviously, perhaps look it up next time before you spray. One of the main symptoms is an exagerated sense of responsibility of others. Does that make sense now? Probably not. You might not live beyond today either but you know what that isn't my problem is it? Anyway, yes i would/have let my 10 year old 4th class 70 feet and it's none of your damn business either so piss off.
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 4:44 PM
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My reply to Storm, in response to his posting on this forum:
=========
Hi Storm, thanks for replying.
Like you, I lead numerous "expeditions" of youth-at-risk on wilderness adventures, usually 21-day trips in the Sierra Nevada. They were referred by probation departments from throughout Southern California; many were from Ventura and Santa Barbara counties. I worked at first for a program called "Sea and Summit", which had a sailing component. It was based in Santa Barbara. Many years ago it morphed into a different type of program, so if it still exists under that name its not the same program.
I started as a student there. I was incarcerated and when I was released from Los Prietos Boys Camp I went directly on one of the expeditions. It was a powerful, life-changing event for me. So I know full well the benefits of adventure education.
Later I became an Assistant Climbing Instructor, under the tutelage of the great Paul Corwin. He was a demanding teacher who knew how to stretch me beyond my limits. I remember climbing Chimney Rock Spire with him; this was in 1972 and neither of us knew if it had ever been climbed. He lead the first pitch of A2 nailing (yes, we used pitons back then). When I joined him at the stance he said, "Your turn now..." and cajoled me into my first lead, what turned out to be about a 5.7 pitch into totally unknown territory. It was quite an accomplishment for me, and for him as a teacher.
We were roped up, and he had carefully taught me how to place protection and build anchors. He had not just prepared me, but also made sure that what we were doing was fundamentally sound.
As time went by I became a climbing instructor, and then the program director. I was frequently hired by other adventure education programs to train their staff and to lead trips of the highest-risk kids. I guess I did this for about 20 years off and on, and I came to believe that I was indeed a great expert on working in the wilderness with youth at risk. I came to believe my own publicity. Until about 1994 when a group of gangsters from San Francisco totally overwhelmed me and my co-workers on a trip in N. Yosemite park. My illusions about my abilities crumbled. After that I felt that it was time to let the next generation take over, and I haven't guided since then. But the event did confront me with plenty of material for my ongoing inner work.
During my years of guiding I saw several significant injuries to both staff and students; fortunately no fatalaties or permanently disabling injuries. I honed my own emergency medical skills, working during the off-season as an EMT. As an EMT responding to accident scenes the strongest lesson I learned was that people don't plan for the accidents that end their lives or their health. They are just tooling along, having a normal day with all their normal hopes and fears and dreams, and it comes out of the blue.
Meanwhile, I had several close calls while climbing; got avalanched on while leading an ice route in Tokopah; on another routed I somehow forgot to clip to my anchors after leading a pitch, and didn't notice until I had held my second in a fall. And my very experienced friends were all accumulating similar stories. The best climber I have partnered with, Bruce Hendricks, had a near-miss that still amazes me. He was teaching a rapelling class, tripped and fell backwards over the edge while unanchored. His co-instructor (who was anchored) lunged forward and grabbed a pinch of skin on Bruce's forearm. That's what saved him.
They weren't planning on that.
The fact that you haven't had any injuries among your students is, in a way, unfortunate; while skillful instruction and supervision has no doubt played a role, so has luck, and you've been misled by that. Luck is a fickle thing to depend upon.
I totally support your right to free solo and I applaud your work with youth at risk and the accomplishments you have had. I particularly admire that you have carved out for yourself a life that is authentic, a path with a heart.
Well done.
That said, I will reiterate again my prior statements:
You are being stunningly irresponsible to encourage a child of Raven's age, and an inexperienced adult, to free solo. I could not find it in myself to stand by and watch without attempting some kind of intervention. That's why I posted to the climbing community, and it's why I have called Ventura County CPS and reported this as a case of probable child endangerment.
I suspect that you have come to believe your own publicity, much as I did before my last trip into the wilderness with the San Francisco gangsters. If you listen to the community now, perhaps you will learn something that will be useful to you. As a spiritually-inclined person, you must know that on the path of learning we are confronted again and again with our own arrogance, our own delusions. And the farther along the path we get, the harder the challenges can become, the more humility is required to master them.
Again, I encourage you to reflect carefully on your actions as a parent and a spouse.
Amos Clifford
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drector
May 17, 2005, 4:47 PM
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I am torn. As a parent, I get a sick feeling every time I see someone put their child in danger. On the other hand, who the hell are all of you to decide what is right for that family and that kid?
There are kids in much more iminent danger and you sit and do nothing about it. Hunderds of kids are killed each year BY their parents. Not by accident.
If you are so concerned about children then go out and start a campaign to rid the world of that silly religion where people don't go to the doctor. Their kids die because of their inaction. Or how about become an activist against drunk driving that happens to kill thousands each month. Many of those killed by stupid drunks are kids and yet this one instance of a free-solo kid climber is somehow severe enough to call the government. I hope someone tries to take your kid away some day.
Next, someone will want to take my kid because I let her climb using a rope for protection. God forbid I ever let her lead before she is 18 and legal to climb.
Dave
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thorne
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May 17, 2005, 5:12 PM
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In reply to: They depict a young woman free-soloing a 70-foot near vertical rock wall, with her daughter, aged 10 or less, free soloing with her. The rock looks rotten and the route looks about 5.5 or so.
Near vertical? The pics are obviously rotated to give an overly dramatic portrayal of the climb's steepness. Looks more like class 4.
I'm all for child safety, but your dishonest representation of the situation makes me think you have ulterior motives.
Ta ta
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storm
May 17, 2005, 5:19 PM
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Hi everyone,
While I appreciate everyone's concern I want to put your mind at ease. I am not some zombie going around doing everything my husband tells me to. I have no problem saying "no thank you" to anything I don't want to do. I looked at this rock however and felt I could do it. It is the type of rock that anyone's kids could scramble up. Storm is not irresponsible. He has never encouraged the kids or I to climb Gibraltar or Sespe or any of the difficult climbs he and his 29 year old son like to do.
We are making a movie about the raw-vegan diet. Can you imagine trying to make a film about diet interesting? Quite a challenge I'll tell you. This web page is a "mythology" designed to present our film. However so as not to be irresponsible about this we put a warning at the bottom of the page telling people why they should not try this at home.
We never intended to put this out to the climbing community as a serious climb. One of our raw-vegan visitors who must also be a climber did that. Regarding camera angles check out the one on the front page of this very site today http://www.rockclimbing.com where the camera is actually upside down! It is not uncommon to take pictures at an angle especially during climbs.
I know a lot of the climbers on here are emailing with Storm and getting into heated discussions and some are getting angered and have actually said that they are calling Child Protective Services right away. One thing I can almost assure you is that if my children are taken by CPS and placed in a foster home they will very likely become seriously ill. They have never had sugar, food with chemicals, processed food, packaged food, junk food, sodas, candy, dairy products, or meat of any kind including chicken or fish. Do any of you really think that our children would be better off in a foster home?
I think that people here are over-reacting because they don't realize that this is a diet website about a flim and not a climbing website about freestyling.
Peace,
Jinjee
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blonde_loves_bolts
May 17, 2005, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: I am torn. As a parent, I get a sick feeling every time I see someone put their child in danger. On the other hand, who the hell are all of you to decide what is right for that family and that kid? There are kids in much more iminent danger and you sit and do nothing about it. Hunderds of kids are killed each year BY their parents. Not by accident. If you are so concerned about children then go out and start a campaign to rid the world of that silly religion where people don't go to the doctor. Their kids die because of their inaction. Or how about become an activist against drunk driving that happens to kill thousands each month. Many of those killed by stupid drunks are kids and yet this one instance of a free-solo kid climber is somehow severe enough to call the government. I hope someone tries to take your kid away some day. Next, someone will want to take my kid because I let her climb using a rope for protection. God forbid I ever let her lead before she is 18 and legal to climb. Dave
This situation isn't just about a parent recklessly putting their kid in danger. This is about a parent knowingly and recklessly endangering their kid, their wife, taking pictures of it to post on a website and video not only to promote their commercial interests, but to inadvertantly encourage others to do the same. Yes, "putting your kid in danger" is a relative term, but it's not an arbitrary, all-or-nothing concept like some people on this board like to say it is.
It's a balancing test, a scale where the important measure is between how inherently dangerous the activity is and how much protection is in place. By protection, I mean education, circumstance, forethought, protective headgear, functional equipment, skill, experience, and accountability. The more inherently dangerous a situation is, the more protection is needed, and protection means the all encompassing concept I just explained. So if you're an expert, you have years of experience, you are accountable, you know your route, you've thought it through and you are doing it for yourself AND ONLY yourself, go ahead and solo. If you're inexperienced but want to try an inherently dangerous activity like climbing, have as many expert and experienced climbers around you as possible, let them belay you, choose the appropriate difficulty level in the climb, let them set the anchor, wear your helmet, and learn as much as you can. It's still an inherently dangerous activity in both scenarios, but the protection factor is what makes the difference.
I still have a reply to Storm's second posting, but I need to get back to work for now before my supervisor gives me her Rodney Dangerfield look again.
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graniteboy
May 17, 2005, 5:20 PM
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To Dave Rector:
There is a difference between taking your kid climbing (I do all the time) and goading them into freesoloing so that you can make money off of the event by selling books on your website. I started freesoloing 5.10 at the age of 16, which has been damn near 30 years ago now. But I did it out of my own teenage stupidity, not because my dad was trying to make money off me. I still solo all the time, and I think it's a good way to set your head straight.
If Storm was molesting his daughter, would you have the same laisez Faire attutude?? Because the girl could DIE doing this little publicity trick. This is a serious matter. And Storm's response to my email showed clearly that he doesn't know the first damn thing about climbing. He's a rank 5.7 beginner with a John Bachar attitude.
I encourage you all to call ventura Child protective services. Storm needs to know that his kids are not publicity stunt cash cows.
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davidji
May 17, 2005, 5:22 PM
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In reply to: Near vertical? The pics are obviously rotated to give an overly dramatic portrayal of the climb's steepness. Looks more like class 4. |
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shakylegs
May 17, 2005, 5:38 PM
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In reply to: My reply to Storm, in response to his posting on this forum: ========= Hi Storm, thanks for replying. [snip] Amos Clifford
You know, if you used instant messaging, you would have less to copy and paste.
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crotch
May 17, 2005, 5:44 PM
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AFTER WATCHING 'SOOPERSIZE ME' I HAVE DECIDED TO SIT AT MY LOCAL MCDONALDS AND CALL CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES EVERY TIME SOMEBODY FORCES THEIR KIDS TO EAT A HAPPY MEAL.
STORM IS A VERY SERIOUS CLIMBER WHO DOESN'T NEED YOUR GIRLY ROPES.
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graniteboy
May 17, 2005, 5:55 PM
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Just so you all have a real name to call in to the Child Protective Services, this "Storm" guy has a real name: it's
Gerald Talifero.
People who abuse their kids always feel self righteous. Especially those who can't see beyond their own egos and who use their kids to sell
Vegan-Os cereal or whatever B.S. these folks are selling.
Help bust these people. Today.
Signing out on this one.
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iamthewallress
May 17, 2005, 5:58 PM
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In reply to: As to which it is, let me ask you as climbers: if someone had been climbing for 25 years, would they use the common slang terminology of climbing such as, "free soloing", "mountaineering" or "trad climbing" and use common grading terms for context, or would they use a load of made-up technical terms which "sound right" but have no meaning?
Wouldn't it be positively refreshing that someone might learn about climbing from 25 years of personal experience with the rock without ever checking into "the community" for lingo approval or anything else for that matter? I like the idea that his guy might have been climbing all this time without knowing what type of climbing shoes put bread on Chris Sharma's table or how his dick measures up next to everyone else's. People really did learn how to climb before Royal Robbins or John Long or TFOTH told us how to do so 'safely'. Our instincts rarely let us take on more than we can handle, no matter what anyone else tells us to do, even as children.
FWIW, the term "trad climbing" is pretty much consider the irritating badge of a n00b by many of my friends who have been climbing since it was just called "climbing". They would laugh to know that one must use the designation to be considered a "Real Climber".
The kid in the pictures sure looked like she was climbing 4th class with a spotter to me. Oh, the humanity! I did the same thing without a spotter, and my parents bid me to do so with loving, "Go outside and play!"
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toejam
May 17, 2005, 6:04 PM
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I think a lot of you are getting suckered by the hype on that page. Looking at the photos at the correct angle, its 4th class not free-solo. I would most definitely NOT be siccing Health and Human Services on these people without something more substantial than that story. You could inflict some real trauma on that family.
To Storm and JinJee:
There is a lot that is troubling in that story about motivations and pressures to engage in risk-taking behaviour. I appreciated your cogent replies on the board, and agree with many of your points. But I hope you realize that the outrage you are hearing from this community is grounded in concern and experience. The fact that a group of people, who's primary recreation is centered around just this sort of activity, is so concerned with your activity should raise a red flag with you. I recommend you yank that page promptly and ponder some of the more well-reasoned replies on this page.
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drector
May 17, 2005, 6:04 PM
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In reply to: To Dave Rector: There is a difference between taking your kid climbing (I do all the time) and goading them into freesoloing so that you can make money off of the event by selling books on your website. I started freesoloing 5.10 at the age of 16, which has been damn near 30 years ago now. But I did it out of my own teenage stupidity, not because my dad was trying to make money off me. I still solo all the time, and I think it's a good way to set your head straight. If Storm was molesting his daughter, would you have the same laisez Faire attutude?? Because the girl could DIE doing this little publicity trick. This is a serious matter. And Storm's response to my email showed clearly that he doesn't know the first damn thing about climbing. He's a rank 5.7 beginner with a John Bachar attitude. I encourage you all to call ventura Child protective services. Storm needs to know that his kids are not publicity stunt cash cows.
There is a lot of talk about taking a kid away from their parents. This is not something to be taken lightly. To a parent, it is dire.
If this were rape then yes it is different. Rape is wrong and illegal. The point is that the kid could DIE doing many things besides this climbing stunt. This is not an act of violence or malevolence against the kid. It is a parent allowing their kid to be in a dangerous situation. Something which I and most parents do every day.
About 1/2 mile from my house is a tree. The tree has a memorial on it because a teenager drove his car into it at 35+ MPH and killed his friend and maimed two girls. He walked away with a broken wrist. The point is; riding in cars is deadly and I'm going to call CPS if you let your kid do it!
Driving is statistically more dangerous than climbing free-solo. Well it might very well be and since no one knows, lets make that assumption and get off this guys back. You let your kid ride in cars and he lets his kid climb free solo.
I forgot to mention that my parents let me free solo up to about 40 feet when I was a kid. I didn't die but I might have gotten pretty screwed up if CPS took me from myt loving caring parents. Oh, but it was a tree so it seemed okay at the time.
Dave
P.S. Someone has to be the devils advocate.
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unabonger
May 17, 2005, 6:09 PM
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The real crime here is advocating a vegan diet. Talk about nuts!
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maculated
May 17, 2005, 6:11 PM
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I tend to agree with Drector and Wallress here - but only because I think you guys aren't willing to step out of your heads for a moment and think about the difference in your ideology and Storm's.
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seabee
May 17, 2005, 6:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I think that people here are over-reacting because they don't realize that this is a diet website about a flim and not a climbing website about freestyling. A 10 year old and an inexperienced adult have no business being led to "freestyling" (which, in case you are wondering, is not what the climbing community calls climbing without a rope).
I'm surprised that this is the first time in the thread that this has been brought up... this hardman with decades of climbing under his belt calls it "freestyling"? I thought that was a swimming stroke...
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fiend
May 17, 2005, 6:28 PM
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If this thread represents the climbing communities general idealogies and propensity for action without thought then I'm ashamed to be a part of it.
Although I agree that there were several questionable things mentioned in the article, I don't think anyone here has any real understanding of the process that these people went through before engaging in such a climb.
Maybe Storm is needlessly endagering his family members.
Maybe he's telling the truth and has prepared them for what they're doing in those photos. If what he has to say about the preparation is true then it doesn't seem all that dangerous to me. Seventy feet is high, but I climbed some pretty stupid stuff when I was younger as well. My mom allowed me to climb trees and scramble off the path when I was younger, does that make her a monster?
I think society tries too hard to protect kids these days. While I don't necessarily condone Storm's actions, I appreciate that he's trying to take a more open approach to raising his children.
An issue like this can't be resolved on the internet. No one here has the ability to read what little information has been presented and make an informed decision.
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jt512
May 17, 2005, 6:33 PM
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In reply to: The real crime here is advocating a vegan diet. Talk about nuts!
I may have to steal that line.
It is possible to raise children on a vegan diet, but precautions have to be taken to avoid deficiencies in total calories and certain nutrients. Usually, this requires supplements and fortified foods. Raising a child on a raw diet is even more challenging; maybe not impossible, but the diet would have to be very well planned and monitored to ensure that the child was getting enough calories.
-Jay
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blonde_loves_bolts
May 17, 2005, 6:34 PM
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In reply to: I would most definitely NOT be siccing Health and Human Services on these people without something more substantial than that story. You could inflict some real trauma on that family.
If I knew these people personally or had reason to believe their children were subject to abuse or their lives were imminently in danger, only then would I contact Child Protective Services. I think this situation should be brought to light and either stopped or made safer, but I don't think that taking kids away from their parents is necessarily a solution here.
It doesn't matter if the climb is 4th class. It's chossy and vertical enough to the point where slipping could result in death. Also, I'm rarely impressed by those who can dish out the climbing lingo faster than I can take a lead fall, but Storm is basically saying that it wasn't soloing because the mother was there to catch her. Like others have said, the mother is not a spotter if she does not have the capacity in that situation to, well, spot.
I fail to see the connection between this climbing excursion and being a vegan. Last time I checked, being a vegan meant eating a healthy diet free of meat and dairy. That is, unless you belong to a sorority I know (which shall remain nameless) where being a vegan includes the above, plus cigarettes and alcohol. However, I'm sure there are ways to make your program interesting without endangering a child.
This isn't climbing a tree. This isn't driving. And if you really want to get technical, the physical activity that yields the most injuries is golf. But just because you haven't gotten hurt doing an activity at this level hardly qualifies you as an expert. If that were the case, I can think of a lot of future Darwin candidates who must be at the top of their field. This is a patriarch with a passion for control, including controlling the ability to visualize the risk involved to his family.
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grover
May 17, 2005, 6:45 PM
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Well said Fiend.
Taking one's children away is a serious thing folks.
I as well remember when just a kid climbing up anything, crashing into walls, nearly drowning while being dragged behind a boat etc... All while being watched by my parents!!!
We see abuse to children everyday, parents smoking in a car, windows rolled up.. Do any of you speak up and call the authorities?
Feeding your kids shitty fast-food is a form of abuse in my books.
This forum slamming of one family and threats of having there children taken away is mind-boggling to me.
If you want to save a child from abuse join a care-giving group, donate to some sort of shelter or if you SEE the abuse speak up!!! Photos of someone scrambling up a gully in my books is not abuse.
I as well am ashamed to be any part of this type of lynch mob.
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yardonthis
May 17, 2005, 6:50 PM
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Graniteboy - maybe what's pissing you off is that "Storm" is advertising his lifestyle as superior and including his kids in that advertising. Whether it's a Jehovah Witness telling me I'm going to burn in hell or a veghead telling me I'm going to blow out an artery it's equally annoying.
Then again, Storm didn't come knocking on my door to deliver his message.
It's pretty clear that the "climb" his kid is "soloing" is just scrambling - something we all did growing up. It's irritating and probably ill advised, but hardly criminal, that "Storm" claims that his kid can scramble up a heap because she eats raw carrots instead of because it's fun.
Or maybe what's pissing everyone off is that Storm claims he's a real climber and is qualified to teach climbing, when clearly ummm, he isn't. Are you going to phone CPS to report all those fat dorky dads teaching boy scouts how to climb?
You sound at least as unhinged as Storm when you advocate calling CPS. I'm not suprised they sounded bored when you called - I'm sure they're overloaded trying to do anything effective about cases of actual abuse.
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kman
May 17, 2005, 7:07 PM
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Storm you are a wannabe and you definately don't know shit about climbing. Why do I say that? Look at the pics. They totally misrepresent the experience and any idiot can tell they are tilted. http://www.thegardendiet.com/movieframesite/home/ Look at the pics on this part of the site. I like how you tie in the rope through the belay loop...can't tell what knot you are using so I won't comment on it. The pic of the guy sitting on the cliff is severly tilted. And the funny thing is you pass yourself off as an expert.
I do give you credit for not feeding shit like Mcd's and chemical laden foods to your kids though.
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codhands
May 17, 2005, 7:27 PM
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Kman I think that knot is a bowline with a safety, can't be sure. Storm, you've got really beautiful children and wife, take care of em.
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killclimbz
May 17, 2005, 7:30 PM
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I have to say that this thread has become more about us sticking our collective "noses" in some one else's business. The kid is defnitely doing a 4th class scramble and this guy is definitely a poser at best.
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kman
May 17, 2005, 7:33 PM
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In reply to: Kman I think that knot is a bowline with a safety, can't be sure.
Dunno man, I really can't tell...it's too blurry...
Anyways, the real crime here is that they are missing out on the pure joy of stuffing a big juicy chunk of tenderloin down their gullet.
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iamthewallress
May 17, 2005, 7:36 PM
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I like the fact that the number one "Related Topic" that I'm getting for this thread is "Help Save My Ugly Toes"!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Also, I couldn't see the pics well enough to discern a rope or a harness let alone what knot was used. I know that the harnesses that we use for groups at the gym have a tie in loop. They're made by Petzl. One size fits all. Keeps you from needing to grab strangers in the crotch to tie them in. What kind of harness does she appear to you eagle eyes to be wearing?
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takeme
May 17, 2005, 7:50 PM
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Hmmmmm
I'm glad noone called CPS when my dad took me up Long's Peak (4th class) when I was 13!
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jtme
May 17, 2005, 8:18 PM
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Hey all
after you turn him in perhaps we can burn some books, chop some bolts, persecute them cuz they are the wrong religion and becuase they eat the wrong foods
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 8:19 PM
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Well, I started the thread and have been following it. Gotta say I have some ambivalent feelings about it all now. There are interesting points made about lots of aspects of this.
I think if this had happened at a local crag when a group of climbers were present, Storm would have heard an opinion or two.
Regarding having children taken away, don't sweat it. If CPS even bothers, they'll see some of the healthiest looking children they've ever encountered, with loving, present and involved parents who maintain a very healthy home environment, shrug their shoulders, and go deal with the real messes out there. (The website has lots of family photos). If I were to do it again I might not call or advocate calling CPS. I just wanted Storm to get the message. I don't think this strategy has succeeded, so it was a faulty approach. But I could not in good conscience ignore the matter.
And by the way, the original concern had nothing to do with veganism or raw food diets. I'm not a nutritionist, but I'm the same age as Storm and when I see photos of him I envy his health. Not enough to become a raw food vegan...but still, the guy looks like I did when I was 27 (he's 52).
My idea of an ideal ending to this whole post would be for Storm to say, "Sheesh guys, thanks for pointing that out to me. I'll definitely think it over", and then for us all to congratulate him and go on about our business, breathing a collective sigh of relief for Raven and Jinjee.
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photon
May 17, 2005, 8:21 PM
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go hide in the shadow of security you fool
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graniteboy
May 17, 2005, 8:36 PM
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Yardonthis:
What is "pissing me off" about this guy is that he is a dangerous, controlling, David Koresh type of personality who is putting his child's life on the line in a sport he doesn't know squat about, and yet is a self proclaimed "expert"...and all this so he can sell his vegan diet books and seminars....he obviously doesn't care a damned thing about the kid...the kid has become a marketing tool for this neandertal.
And to get to one of the points made above: I have nailed more than a few boyscout leaders who were endangering the kids in their charge.
It's the only moral thing to do when you see someone risking a kid's life. And it makes these boneheads think long and hard about their behaviour when the D.A. gives them a call.
Hell....would you call the dogpound if you knew that the neighbors weren't feeding their dog??? Or would that be "putting your nose into other people's business" ??? Does the kid deserve at least the community concern that a dog would when someone was endangering it???
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davidji
May 17, 2005, 9:01 PM
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In reply to: If CPS even bothers, they'll see some of the healthiest looking children they've ever encountered, with loving, present and involved parents who maintain a very healthy home environment, shrug their shoulders, and go deal with the real messes out there.
Wouldn't it be nice if it worked that way? Healthy children have been siezed from loving homes when parents refused to give their children controversial vaccines, or when mothers breastfed children deemed too old. When the parent's judgment of what is best for their child differs from "The Man" sometimes children end up in foster care.
When I lived in San Diego many years ago there was a scathing grand jury review of the local CPS. An internet search will reveal an endless list of CPS abuses. The search I just did also revealed that the county I live in now has had a similar grand jury report on its own CPS. I mention the grand jury reports because the grand juries investigate many cases, and you might find their reports more convincing than websites with agendas (for example http://www.fightcps.com, a site I just found via internet search).
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graniteboy
May 17, 2005, 11:16 PM
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"Dear Sir;
I have referred your message to our Sexual Assualt and Family
Protection Unit for review.
Very truly yours,
Gregory W. Brose
Senior Deputy District Attorney
Ventura County District Attorney's Office"
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storm
May 17, 2005, 11:26 PM
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Good point. Unfortunately the CPS aren't the good guys many people here obviously think they are. I just talked to a friend who is a social worker about this and they have a very cookie cutter idea of what a family should be and if you don't fit into that you've got problems. We totally don't fit.
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graniteboy
May 17, 2005, 11:38 PM
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BUT, the question IS, "Jinji" and "Storm": Would Child protective services encourage your kids to freesolo and then use pictures of your children freesoloing so that they could make money off of them???
By that standard, you must admit that you are, at minimum, exploiting your child for profit. Which is immoral, dangerous, and, quite probably, Illegal. It is one of the fundamental rights of children (By U.N. Standards) to not be exploited. This is not just an opinion...it is the law, both federally and internationally.
As far as I can tell, Storm and Jinji are unaware that the poor damned kid is anything other than a means to sell vegan books....a cheap, disposable, Publicity stunt.....and they should think DAMN long and hard about that when CPS comes a calling. I'm sure CPS will be thinking of that when they decide whether or not to allow you to keep raising these kids.
You'll be hearing from the District Attorney's office and CPS any time now.
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toloco
May 17, 2005, 11:46 PM
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"He developed many of the methods used in training for freestyle mountain climbing although this is not a commonly taught sport."
I'm really interested in this freestyle climbing. I see it's not commonly taught, but where can I find out more about it. Perhaps at the local dance school? I'm finding just doing the moves on a climb is becoming a little boring. Maybe busting out the worm or a back spin in the middle of the climb would make it more entertaining for me. Do you usually have musical accompaniment? Do you find that the judging system is very good, or does it have similar problems to figure skating or synchronized swimming?
Or do I have it all backwards, and really you're supposed to rap a new song about the climb as you go?
Any info concerning this would be appreciated.
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pt
May 17, 2005, 11:46 PM
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I 4th classed with my dad all the time before we learned about "real" climbing. We had fun, maybe were in some danger, but I don't think I needed to be sent off to foster parents. We shouldn't judge too quickly.
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crimpandgo
May 17, 2005, 11:47 PM
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In reply to: Yardonthis: What is "pissing me off" about this guy is that he is a dangerous, controlling, David Koresh type of personality who is putting his child's life on the line in a sport he doesn't know squat about, and yet is a self proclaimed "expert"...and all this so he can sell his vegan diet books and seminars....he obviously doesn't care a damned thing about the kid...the kid has become a marketing tool for this neandertal. And to get to one of the points made above: I have nailed more than a few boyscout leaders who were endangering the kids in their charge. It's the only moral thing to do when you see someone risking a kid's life. And it makes these boneheads think long and hard about their behaviour when the D.A. gives them a call. Hell....would you call the dogpound if you knew that the neighbors weren't feeding their dog??? Or would that be "putting your nose into other people's business" ??? Does the kid deserve at least the community concern that a dog would when someone was endangering it???
If a class 4 requires the CPS to get involved, then the CPS is gonna be busy cause just about every family that brings their kids climbing fits into this category. Kids are fearless. I dont know how many times when I have been climbing, I see kids at the crags climbing up stuff I would never dream of doing without a rope. Heck, my own kids are doing before I get a chance to say something.
I am not advocating what choices Storm has chosen, but the simple fact is we have become a paranoid (and arrogant) society. I listen to the stories of what people my fathers age did and I have to chuckle. Its amazing any of them are still alive today to talk about it.
Part of growing up is facing real life situations. If we buffer our kids from everything that is dangerous then the kids will not learn to take care of themselves. And frankly they will not have any fun.
I agree there are limits. Some things clearly are past the limits and need intervention, but we must be constantly aware of the situations that are simply subjective and fall into the catagory of "differences in personal philosophies".
Anyone who is getting self-righteous about this situation, I recommend you take a look at the photos again ( the real photos undoctered). Then go talk to you parents and grandparents about what they did as kids. I think you will find that rules have changed recently. The real question is, Have the rules changed for the better? That is a matter of opinion.
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fiend
May 17, 2005, 11:51 PM
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Just playing devil's advocate here graniteboy, but what proof do you have beyond what you've read here?
I've never trusted the internet for valid information and I wouldn't mess with someone's family because of what I read online. Do you not realize that having CPS involved in something like this could be far more traumatic for the children than anything that they've encountered to this point?
I read over a few sections of Storm's site and didn't see anything more than "this is my family, this is how we live, and we want to promote it."
In reply to: As far as I can tell, Storm and Jinji are unaware that the poor damned kid is anything other than a means to sell vegan books....a cheap, disposable, Publicity stunt...
That's harsh.
Maybe I'm wrong... maybe it's better to call in The Law before anything bad happens.
Maybe 75% of the users posting in this thread are completely over-reacting and about to cause an innocent family a lot of needless grief.
For fuck's sake... it was proved that passthepitonspete was harrassing female members (many were underage) and no one treated it as seriously as these allegations!
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graniteboy
May 18, 2005, 12:06 AM
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The other evidence I have are the emails back and forth between myself and this "storm" (gerald) guy.
The guy is a danger to his kid.
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couloir
May 18, 2005, 12:07 AM
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This guy should be reported to the social services, simply because of his name. It's also pretty fucked up what he gets his family to do.
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crimpandgo
May 18, 2005, 12:21 AM
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My point earlier was that "the guy is a danger to his kid" is subjective and based on your upbringing. Heck there are a lot of people that think top-roping with your kid is " a danger to his kid" . Most of those folks are non-climbers, but the point is still made. I swear nowadays CPS will show up at your door if your kid is riding their bike without a helmet on.
There are very clear cut cases that need intervention. but we have become a society that loves to butt into other peoples business. I really question whether that change is better for our kids? or eventually worse. The CPS is overworked as it is that they can't spend the time to deal with the "real" issues. Read the news on a daily basis. Kids being locked in their rooms starving to death. Babies being shaken to death. Many of the cases have been reported and the CPS simply doesn't have the manpower to handle all the cases.
So, if you really want to help out children in need, maybe your time would be better spent writing a check to the CPS so they can hire more people to help the kids that are in immediate and real danger. or maybe consider adopting so that you can assert your personal influences on a child and hope to make a positive difference for children that truely have no hope of normal lives.
Keep your headlights focuses on the real issues.
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feanor007
May 18, 2005, 12:27 AM
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so, is some one gonna turn me in because i've 4th classed with my little bro and heck, i got pictures to prove it, many times. guess what we had fun. i'm safe about what i rope up for (any 5th class) and what I let my bro follow me on. I use the opertunites to teach him about risk assessment and managment so that he is properly equipped to make decisions on his own. now i understand the 'exploitation' claims, but i didn't see any thing exploitive about the pics. don't get cps involved over 4th class scrambles, that's a horrible precedent IMO.
in my other sport, competitive shooting, i watched a daughter be ripped away, against her will, from two loving, responsible parents because some relative thought any gun handleing, no matter the enviornment, was irresposible. risk teaches responsibility. don't destroy families.
just my 2 cents, take it or leave it
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yardonthis
May 18, 2005, 12:28 AM
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Graniteboy, I'm pretty sure I've done (more than) a few things in my life that were ill-conceived and dangerous. Not only that, but I've more than once received unsolicited advise from strangers about how to take care of my own kid.
But if someone ratted me out and had the DA call me, or advised CPS to take away my kid, well let's say I wouldn't think they were doing me a favor.
Read your own posts line by line and see if you can differentiate between facts supported by physical evidence and your own opinions on right and wrong.
"he is a dangerous, controlling, David Koresh type of personality"
"all this so he can sell his vegan diet books and seminars"
"he obviously doesn't care a damned thing about the kid"
"the kid has become a marketing tool for this neandertal"
uh huh.
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takeme
May 18, 2005, 12:30 AM
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In reply to: You'll be hearing from the District Attorney's office and CPS any time now.
Graniteboy. I have copied your personal description for the readers of this thread to see:
Climbing: abt 30 years worth, mostly trad, free soloing, and alpine climbing. I climb; Walls (big and small) to alaskan monsters to bouldering to trees. I like other climbers who are not egocentric, and who know when to shut the hell up and listen to the voice of experience. I'm a biologist for money and for love. I climb things from 5.2 to about 12b/c. and ice up to WI 5-6. And trees up to abt sequoia 6. And alaska climbing to about PDS (pretty damned scary; alaska grades mean nothing, it's all abt the weather). But I only solo 10d, so I'm not a REAL hardman.
Alpine, WI6, dangerous Alaskan stuff, some pretty scary stuff there buddy. Why hell, that ain't hardly legal, or oughtn't be, know what I mean? I mean, if your mom could see what you were up to you'd be in so much trouble, right?
At least you take it mellow when it comes to the free soloing though. I mean, we can't all be hardmen, but we all know anybody worth his salt solos at least 10d.
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grover
May 18, 2005, 12:31 AM
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So, nebo is this the outcome you were after?
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nebo
May 18, 2005, 12:54 AM
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I think the crocodile man story referenced in the previous post has some similarities, but not quite the same. The croc man had more direct control of the situation. Also reminds me of the infamous Michael Jackson dangling his kid out the hotel window. They share a common thread with the one we are discussing: poor parental judgement, followed by a s---storm of community commentary.
What I'm thinking is, it seems like there is a tendency in these posts toward a majority opinion that as long as the climb was only class 4, it's okay for a parent to expose his or her child to the risk. This is supported with anecdotes and fond memories of "scrambles amongst the peaks with dad when I was a youth."
I think there is something to this argument. But there are several questions that it doesn't answer for me. For example, not all class 4 routes are the same difficulty or degree of danger. Heck, last summer my son (19 years old) and I did a nominally class 3 route on Mt. Brewer (east ridge) that I thought, if this is class 3, its class 3.12d--I mean, I was definitely paying attention to how I was climbing and afterwards I questioned if I wanted to encourage my son to repeat experiences like that. Plus, 5.9 for me is about 4th class for Lynn Hill.
So let's say, for the sake of debate, that class 4 is okay for 11 years to solo above the level where a fall would result in serious injury or death (I think that's what some folks are saying here--I'm not personally in agreement).
Is 5.0 okay?
Is 5.1?
Is 5.2?
etc?
Remember, we don't know how hard this route actually is.
And how high is okay?
And at what age?
But that, of course, is just part of the issue. The next part is, when is it justified to take actions on behalf of a child who we perceive to be at risk (and clearly we are not talking about normal day-to-day risks such as have been mentioned above, e.g. riding the subway, walking on a sidewalk, etc.; we are talking about exposure to circumstances that are clearly of greatly elevated risk):
Before an injury
After an injury
After death
Never--let God or Karma sort it out
And then, of course, there's who has the right (or whose business is it) to intervene:
Only an immediate family member
A friend
Someone who directly witnesses the event
Strangers with some expertise in the area of risk
Strangers with some expertise in the area of child welfare
Strangers with no expertise
A government agency
God/Random acts of nature
Gravity
So, when we are exposed to this event we are presented with multiply-faceted judgement call. Because it is a judgement call each of us will view it according to our perception filters and choose actions that we feel are most fitting.
To parse this out, my judgement was (and I'm not saying this is the ONE RIGHT WAY or the ULTIMATE TRUTH):
The rock is high and steep enough to result in a fatal fall.
Moreover, it is of poor quality, which dramatically increases the risk of a fall.
The child is too young to be on it; from the standpoint of sound judgement gained through adequate life experience.
Her parent is encouraging her to do so.
And viewing the photo scared the crap out of me for Raven (and to a lesser extent, for Jinjee).
And for me to not attempt to intervene MIGHT (I'm not actually totally sure of this--so I say might) be a betrayal of who I am.
I liked the point someone made earlier about if the neighbor is neglecting the dog; would we call spca?
As a postscript, I'm feeling the most remorse about this string when I see how our community sometimes indulges in name-calling (yeah, me too). I doubt that's helpful. Someone wrote, keep your focus. To my mind the focus is: How can we act in a way that is most likely to reduce the clearly unacceptable risks (again, IMHO) to which Raven is being exposed?
And I thought that appropriate for the Injuries and Accidents topic.
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bvb
May 18, 2005, 12:58 AM
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i just wrote storm an e-mail telling him he should ignore all of you hand-wringing wankers.
30 years ago, nobody would have paid any attention to this. but now, it's all about the "community's" reaction and the "bad image" this kind of "irresponsible" behavior gives to the "sport". gimme a fucking break.
this kid has a pair of obviously eccentric and flaky parents who love her. half the kids on the planet should be so lucky.
any of you ever volunteered your free time to work with parentless disabled kids? anybody ever give up a climbing day to organize events for disadvantaged children in poor neighboorhoods? show of hands, please.
hmmm.
get over yourselves, you hand-wringing dilettantes. if you are so genuinely concerned for the well-being of children in this world, i can provide you with a long list of activities you can undertake that will be far more effective and have a much more positive impact on children at risk than this intermiable parsing of a couple of fucking photos of some n00bs hiking choss in california.
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ambler
May 18, 2005, 1:51 AM
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In reply to: Scolding Needed--To Save a Life
But calling down the law? That's hasty, dangerous and excessive in whole new ways.
In reply to: i just wrote storm an e-mail telling him he should ignore all of you hand-wringing wankers. |
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socalclimber
May 18, 2005, 1:56 AM
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While I may not approve of what I saw and read, and find it scary, I don't think calling CPS is appropriate or the answer.
I guess what's done is done.
Robert
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loadstar
May 18, 2005, 2:05 AM
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Mr. Storm
Don’t let these spineless so called climbing fools get to you as they are as ignorant as the first day they were born. Their tunnel vision as of what climbing and life and death is will never be clear to them.
They are desperately seeking the truth which mysteriously is always right in front of them.
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momar
May 18, 2005, 2:12 AM
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When I was a kid my older brother and dad loved fishing and I couldnt stand it. So my dad would tell me just to go climb those rocks over there so I didnt bother him. Going back and seeing those rocks in person they were low to mid 5's all over 20 feet. So was I being abused?
Just think back about all the dumb shit you did when you were a kid. That's when you learn what things are and aren't a good idea. Adn letting you kids solo 4th class is not a big deal.
And storm even said that she had PRACTICED it on top rope. I imagine isn't to hard to get a scramble dialed after several tries.
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nebo
May 18, 2005, 2:43 AM
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In reply to: So, nebo is this the outcome you were after?
I'm not sure if the outcome I was after will be achieved. There are a lot of superfluous comments that, while interesting, are also at times disturbing. I am right now mostly feeling sorrow about the whole thing.
I'm at a place that is familiar to me, a particular juncture of confusion. I started on the route with clear intentions, perhaps started overanalysing after a few moves in, and now am not sure if I was ever on-route. Keep climbing, or bail? And all this foul weather sure blew in fast, didn't it?
Thanks for asking.
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bvb
May 18, 2005, 2:50 AM
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suck a dick, nebo. you're trying to blow all this shit you started off as if it's part of your personal journey towards the light.
meanwhile, you fuck with other people by firing off e-mails to the cops.
i'm the father of an autistic 12 year old boy, and am WAY too familiar with people like you...safely on the sidelines, clueless, taking casual potshots at things you don't understand.
stay out of flagstaff, bitch. i ever see you, i'm gonna get right up in your face.
asshole.
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loadstar
May 18, 2005, 2:57 AM
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Ditto
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hasbeen
May 18, 2005, 3:18 AM
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The man may lack a bit of eloquence, but I'm backing up BVB all the way on this one. What the hell is the matter with you people? Who are you to judge the way someone else lives their life? I don't know about this Storm character but, hell, when I was his kid's age I was doing stuff on my own that was a hell of a lot more dangerous than that. Are your kids safer drinking coke all day in front of a computer screen on their way to type II diabetes by the age of 11 and cosmetic surgery before they're out of college?
And Steve Irwin's kid is a million times safer with him and a couple of crocs than most kids in LA are driving with their stressed-out, Prozac-quaffing, cell-glued-to-their-ear, one-hand-on-the SUV parents.
This country has gone insane. Get a friggin' life.
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mack_north
May 18, 2005, 3:28 AM
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In reply to: i just wrote storm an e-mail telling him he should ignore all of you hand-wringing wankers. 30 years ago, nobody would have paid any attention to this. but now, it's all about the "community's" reaction and the "bad image" this kind of "irresponsible" behavior gives to the "sport". gimme a f---ing break. this kid has a pair of obviously eccentric and flaky parents who love her. half the kids on the planet should be so lucky. any of you ever volunteered your free time to work with parentless disabled kids? anybody ever give up a climbing day to organize events for disadvantaged children in poor neighboorhoods? show of hands, please. hmmm. get over yourselves, you hand-wringing dilettantes. if you are so genuinely concerned for the well-being of children in this world, i can provide you with a long list of activities you can undertake that will be far more effective and have a much more positive impact on children at risk than this intermiable parsing of a couple of f---ing photos of some n00bs hiking choss in california.
So good I wanted to see it posted again. How did our country get from the founding fathers to these "hand-wringing wankers" in a mere 200 years? I salute you, sir!
Get off the damn shed!!
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crotch
May 18, 2005, 3:32 AM
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Gold Trophy for BVB.
In reply to: suck a dick, nebo. you're trying to blow all this s--- you started off as if it's part of your personal journey towards the light. meanwhile, you f--- with other people by firing off e-mails to the cops. i'm the father of an autistic 12 year old boy, and am WAY too familiar with people like you...safely on the sidelines, clueless, taking casual potshots at things you don't understand. stay out of flagstaff, b----. i ever see you, i'm gonna get right up in your face. asshole. |
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frankfurter
May 18, 2005, 3:37 AM
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In short people who don't eat meat are crazy...yeah, definitly crazy.
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wonderbread
May 18, 2005, 3:41 AM
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How many kids do you have Nebo?
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micahmcguire
May 18, 2005, 4:11 AM
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I've just referred Storm and Jinjee to the Child Protective Services office in their area. I hope they lose their children to the state. It would certainly be the best thing for them. How can they even call themselves "parents" when they force their children to risk their lives in pursuit of their father's sport? Raising children should not be a right, it should be a privilege. I hope they lose that privilege.
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iamthewallress
May 18, 2005, 4:13 AM
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In reply to: Gold Trophy for BVB.
I gave him one for his first post.
And to answer nebo's musings about how 4th class could be considered 'safe enough' when a fall could result in death, I invite you to try two of Yosemite's favorite family outings. The Falls Trail and the Half Dome Cables. Both are rated 2nd class by Roper FWIW. In both cases getting biffed by rockfall or dropped gear is a possibility, and although helmets might be advised, I've never seen anyone sporting one on these routes. A fall on either could result in death. On the half dome cables, it almost certainly would result in death if the person actually cut loose. On any given Saturday in the month of June CPS could harvest parents by the busload for wrecklessly endangering their children on these death routes.
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kman
May 18, 2005, 4:13 AM
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Holy crap. The fuckin pics are tilted. The terrain isn't even that bad. He is passing off tilted pics as being hard core climbing. Who the fuck are you guys to call child services on this man? That's a little harsh don't you think?
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bvb
May 18, 2005, 4:21 AM
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In reply to: I've just referred Storm and Jinjee to the Child Protective Services office in their area. I hope they lose their children to the state. It would certainly be the best thing for them. How can they even call themselves "parents" when they force their children to risk their lives in pursuit of their father's sport? Raising children should not be a right, it should be a privilege. I hope they lose that privilege.
and i e-mailed storm that as a child advocacy activist and life-long climber, i'd be more thsn happy to travel to california in the extremely unlikely event that something should ever come of this.
you ready to do that? how deep is your committment to the safety and well-being of at-risk children? ready to get off the couch, you freak? ready to fly to california to testify? what are your credentials. aside from being an ass??
see you in california, i hope.
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zozo
May 18, 2005, 4:25 AM
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This whole fucking thread makes me want to take a shower.
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pa
May 18, 2005, 4:36 AM
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In reply to: This whole f---ing thread makes me want to take a shower.
amen. i have never come across such a pathetic thread on any website. ever. you people are the ones who should be turned over to the state. punters.
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micahmcguire
May 18, 2005, 4:41 AM
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I don't need to go down to CA to tell that what's going on is wrong. The pics and the text speak for themselves. Those children are in imminent danger. I can tell that from here. Child services can do the rest. If there's no smoke, there's no fire. Given your PM, I highly doubt you are the humaitarian you claim. Chill.
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jumpingrock
May 18, 2005, 4:43 AM
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Am I allowed to be highly entertained by this thread? The hypocracy of modern society is shocking yet somehow expected.
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strongerthanyesterday
May 18, 2005, 4:44 AM
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this thread is a little strange. i came across a similar thread on another website, but i thought it was more along the lines of, "hey, what is your opinion on this" rather than "oh my GOD someone should take this guy's kids away, don't you agree"? i think the foster system would be WAY more traumatic, havn't you heard the horror stories? the CPS is WAY overloaded with more urgent cases and is understaffed and overworked.
i think getting up in storm's email box, his personal life, and calling cps is WAY out of line. its one thing to ask people what they think about it, and to express your own opinion, but i don't think that is reasonable to take an informal survey online and trump a few people's opinions as the Voice of the Climbing Establishment and get all up in someone's grill.
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nebo
May 18, 2005, 4:45 AM
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In reply to: How many kids do you have Nebo?
Two grown children, both of whom I've climbed with (although my daugter didn't enjoy it much, so we didn't climb together) and now a 14-year old foster daughter who is not very interested in outdoor things.
May I ask why you inquire?
I want to say: it's a bit of a surprise to me that this forum is turning into an attack on me. Several people have said, if I'm so concerned, why I don't do something useful, other than tattle on other people's actions. Here's this weeks list (although some of these activities will spill over into next week also):
Made a small cash donation to a local youth organization (which I helped to get started several years ago).
Donated software services through my business to Survivors of Torture International.
Donated software services through my business to Region Nine afterschool sites in California.
Gave my foster daughter rides to school; took her to and watched her rehearsal for her play that opens this week.
Offered $1000 of pro bono programming to a youth services program in New York City. Ditto for Imperial County Office of Education Youth and Family Resources program.
Spent a pretty penny on college tuition for my son.
Arranged with a homeless shelter a creative financing strategy to make feasible implementing a long-range evaluation strategy.
Began planning with a local organization that works with disabled children for a board retreat, which I have volunteered to facilitate next month.
Lent an encouraging ear to my therapist friend who is battling his county's mental health department (he reported them for child neglect and the judge sided with him when they went to court).
Became aware of a child at significant risk through parental poor judgement and attempted a creative intervention on her behalf.
Have I ever done this tattling thing before? Never, in 52 years, except in an earlier phase of my career when I was director of youth service programs and a family therapist; I was a mandated reporter then, and twice (if I recall correctly), after long discussion with colleagues, I had to make the call--and I hated doing it. Like I said before, I usually keep my nose out things like this. But I reiterate: while I recognize that many of you disagree with me, even to the point of offering to do me violence (!), my opinion is that it is right to stand up for this child.
One of my good friends, a long time climber who is watching this post, gently said, "I'm not sure that climbers are the best group to try to mobilize for this kind of thing..."
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rgold
May 18, 2005, 4:51 AM
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I think the extemists on both sides have gotten out of hand. On the one side, the Storm apologists seem to be saying there is nothing the matter with browbeating your wife and 11 year old daughter into soloing 4th class choss. (Some give as reasons that they chose to do such things when they were kids, but that is very different from having a parent push you into it.) 4th class choss is still deadly, and get real, one climber---even if they weren't terrified themselves---cannot spot another on that stuff. The commentary on the site, rather than Storm's revisions here, makes it clear that Storm was concerned his daughter might fall, yet he considered the benefits of the experience worth the risk to her life. In my book, that's fucked up. In some sense it is abuse, and the wife seems to me to be as abused as the daughter.
How would the Storm apologists react if the little girl fell and died? Would you think the rest of the family needed protection or not?
The extremists on the other side seem to think this dysfunctional family interaction is grounds for calling CPS. Well, hmmm. A lot of families push their kids into doing things that are risky. Gymnastics, scuba diving, and, er, climbing come to mind. I'm going to call down the holy ire of half the climbers in the universe by wondering aloud whether anyone who takes their kids climbing isn't doing the same thing as Storm, by which I mean voluntarily exposing them to unnecessary risks because the parents like the activity and think it will be "good" for their kids. Sure, most climbing parents are infinitely less casual about the safety of their children than Storm is, but climbing has its risks, exposing children to them is a choice made by the parent, and if questioned, the parents will say, as Storm does, that the rewards are worth the risks. Is CPS supposed to intervene in these cases too?
There are people out there who beat their children to death, starve them, tie them up and lock them in rooms, prostitute them, committing horrible, one would like to say inhuman, acts. CPS is supposed to protect those children, and sadly their hands are full. If the cavalry has to be called in for Storm's family, then there's a whole hell of a lot of other folks on the list too.
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philfell
May 18, 2005, 4:51 AM
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I've seen boyscout troops out doing hikes that I deem far too dangerous, with scout leaders who don't have the knowledge they should for the type of outings they embark on. Should we try to put an end to the boy scouts, believe me I've seen some really bad stuff. (Last year in SLC a kid got bit by a baby rattle snake after the scout leader told the kid it was ok to play with the snake.)
To be honest you can't tell anything from the pics. Hook-up with Storm and climb it yourself then make a judgment, don't take a 2D tilted image and make a opinion on weather it's safe or not. YOU'VE NEVER SEEN THE ACTUAL CLIMB.
Many parent exploit their kid for monetary purposes. When I was a kid, I worked construction for my dad. It gave me a chance to make some money in the summer. It also gave my dads company more profit, because he was paying me to do jobs I was capable of doing at the age of 12 or 13, and I was way cheaper than paying an adult with a family to do the same job. Should I have been taken away from my family because a construction site is a dangerous place to be, and my dad was "exploiting child labor"??? Have you ever saw a child actor/actress on T.V.??
I think people are going overboard, and jumping to conclusions when they only have a small portion of the truth.
One comment about calling the humain society if the neighbors dog was being neglected. Yes I'd call. This is a neighbors dog, one that I CAN SEE, it treatment. NOT a pic of a dog on the INTERNET with a story written by a hippy. Do some real research before you start messing with someone family. You people should be ashamed of yourselves!
Way to make a statement BVB.
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maculated
May 18, 2005, 4:54 AM
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Nebo,
This has been nagging me a bit, and this is the one and only time that I ever take post count into consideration . . . I am not making a judgment here, but I have to ask - what made you decide to create a username and go to rockclimbing.com with this? It's my experience that people either lurk on this site and never post, or they create user names at some point because they want to comment on something. It's a little odd that you come to this site and your first post is this one.
I just would like to ask your credibility on this point. Like I've posted, I definitely see both sides to this thread, and I know that you feel as justified as Storm does - but why would you choose RC.com to "mobilize" as you phrase it? Your profile doesn't give your name or background so it's hard to judge credibility of your side - while Storm at least has a bio on his page.
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micahmcguire
May 18, 2005, 5:03 AM
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yes foster care is traumatic, but falling to your death is much, much worse. For parents to encourage ree-soloing at that age can not be justified, I don't care how you try. These parents are knowingly and willfully risking the lives of their children. that is reckless endangerment, and needs to be stopped ASAP. I will not relent my point. I don't care enough to make this my mission in life, but I do care enough to refer these people to the proper channels. If nothing truly reckless is occuring, then these folks have nothing to fear.
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crshbrn84
May 18, 2005, 5:52 AM
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i just read all nine pages of this drivle, this is just sad all around. Would one of the moderators please lock this thread. This has already gotten way too far out of hand.
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nebo
May 18, 2005, 5:53 AM
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In reply to: Nebo, I just would like to ask your credibility on this point. Like I've posted, I definitely see both sides to this thread, and I know that you feel as justified as Storm does - but why would you choose RC.com to "mobilize" as you phrase it? Your profile doesn't give your name or background so it's hard to judge credibility of your side - while Storm at least has a bio on his page.
Thanks for asking. I have covered some of my background in previous posts in this thread, but it would certainly be more convenient for others if I completed my profile. I just tried to do so but the system was cranky--so perhaps later. Here's a synopsis.
I started climbing in 1971, mostly in the area of my hometown Santa Barbara. In the summers I worked in the Sierra teaching rockclimbing to youth at risk and guiding backcountry wilderness trips of 21 day duration, all with at-risk youth, mostly referred by probation. In 1977 I moved to Visalia and became more active in the south sierra, climbing along the General's highway and contributing a number of first ascents in that area (Chimney Rock, moro rock, tokopah). Please see the guidebooks for the Southern Sierra for more info. I spent one summer in Yosemite and made many visits there over the years. I enjoy short climbs and have never thrived on big walls, although I did climb Middle Cathedral North Buttress in about 1980 or so. I continued until about 1993 or 94 to lead backcountry trips for youth at risk, mostly in North Yosemite and the Hoover Wilderness. I researched and wrote the first climbers guide for the General's Highway of Sequoia/Kings Canyon, which appeared in Rock and Ice (I believe it was issue 21). My maximum leading ability was about 5.11b/c. I climbed many hundreds of shorter routes.
Meanwhile, I started and developed a youth services program in Tulare County (Turning Point Youth Services) which I directed for 15 years while earning my masters in marriage and family counseling. I then spent 10 years as an organizational development consultant helping a variety of human services program develop funding and evaluation strategies. My present business focuses on providing software that I hope empowers these types of programs to better track and manage services--my theory being that when I cast my particular pebble into the pond, this is how I make the widest ripples.
Now, why did I choose this as a method of approaching this issue? Again, I have written about this in previous posts. But I've had some opportunity to reflect more on this question, so to add: I imagined that individuals who have climbing experience, looking at those pictures, would be concerned enough to give Storm a scolding that might benefit Raven and Jinjee.
You ask why is this my first post on this forum? Well, actually, long ago I used to sometimes participate in forums of this type; back then flame wars mostly happened through letters to the editors of the various magazines. And in the earlier days of the internet there were a few bulletin boards. Honestly, I had forgotten how quickly these things degenerate into flaming, and how the focus tends to shift from the issue at hand to the personal characteristics, real, imagined, and projected, of the participants.
I have been reminded.
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maculated
May 18, 2005, 6:06 AM
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In reply to: Honestly, I had forgotten how quickly these things degenerate into flaming, and how the focus tends to shift from the issue at hand to the personal characteristics, real, imagined, and projected, of the participants. I have been reminded.
True, that. No matter the venue, the Internet is rife with pissing matches: some deserved, some not.
Thank you for your answer.
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grover
May 18, 2005, 6:19 AM
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nebo,
Is it common practice of a marriage and family counselor to post photo's on a forum to total strangers to "scold" parents?
Is that the protocol, or did you try other ways first and use this as a last resort, which it has sadly turned into.
Turning it loose amongst DOGS!!!
This is not a court.
I presume that with your experience in counseling you've made some proper judgements in this field, but do you think this is one of them?
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bvb
May 18, 2005, 7:21 AM
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In reply to: I don't need to go down to CA to tell that what's going on is wrong. The pics and the text speak for themselves. Those children are in imminent danger. I can tell that from here. Child services can do the rest. If there's no smoke, there's no fire. Given your PM, I highly doubt you are the humaitarian you claim. Chill.
OK, i should chill...while you fuck with the lives of people you've never met. Uh, yeah.
"Don't need to see what's going on firsthand"...yeah...if you saw it on the internet it must be true...wanna buy a bridge, micah?
"Those children are in imminent danger..." pffffft. says you. guess my two kids have been in "imminent danger" all their lives.
My pm basically says you are an idiot. Sinnce the last resort of a dickhead loser with no point to make is always to refer to PM's, i'll post mine here for all to see:
"you're either a troll or a f---.
either way, go die, you f---ing punk."
i stand by what i PM'd you. you ARE either a troll, or a punk.
or worse.
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pheenixx
May 18, 2005, 8:03 AM
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In reply to: ...long ago I used to sometimes participate in forums of this type; back then flame wars mostly happened through letters to the editors of the various magazines. And in the earlier days of the internet there were a few bulletin boards. Honestly, I had forgotten how quickly these things degenerate into flaming, and how the focus tends to shift from the issue at hand to the personal characteristics, real, imagined, and projected, of the participants. I have been reminded.
I too am reminded and prefer now to just watch the pack circle the kill. I would rather be climbing. I try to use this site for info, a meeting place for partners and also enjoy the quick wit and humour displayed at times.
So far no one mentioned (sorry if I missed it) that the point of their movie is "quote":
In reply to: I think that by not eating meat it allows us to endure higher levels of extreme pressure such as climbing without ropes. One of the reasons for this is that when animals are slaughtered under stress they poison their meat with their adrenalin. This in turn is passed on to us and when we get in a situation such as extreme climbing where our natural adrenalin kicks in then our system becomes overloaded and we freeze up.
When I was a vegetarian (no cigs), I was not a climber and I had a fear of heights and climbing. When I started climbing with more outdoor activities, I started eating meat. It didn't make me then "freeze-up" and then stop climbing. When our "adrenalin" kicks in, it is because of 'fear', not because we have too much adrenalin from eating meat. Fear can be a good thing - it is a natural thing that is supposed to protect us. I am currently reading "The Rock Warrior's Way". It explains that "thoughts" are the things in our mind that we need to control. We need to sort out realistic fears from our imagined fears. What we think, we believe and then react. Getting to understand our thoughts and learning how to control our minds seems to be a better way IMO.
I understand why nebo has brought this out to appeal to the community. I just thought I would mention to Storm and Jinjee however, that perhaps they should do a bit more personal research before they step out to proclaim that by becoming a vegan - people will be able loose their fears (adrenalin) and become a free-soloists. I am currently determined to see if I can do it after a strip of jerky. I may never free-solo (which has nothing to do with fear), but I'll be happy leading a 5.10 someday on trad. You guys kinda picked a controversial outlet.
BTW - "vegan" means no dairy products, cheese or eggs. I don't see how adrenalin is released (animals killed) with the making of cheese & milk.
...and this could go on and on about the "pain" that a carrot feels when it's pulled out of the ground... :roll: geesh - yes, everyone has an opinion. :wink: but that's for another website.
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blondgecko
Moderator
May 18, 2005, 8:38 AM
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I can't believe I just read through nine pages of this drivel. Have the self-righteous amongst you actually looked at these pictures?
Let's use picture 3 as a reference point.
Picture 1 was obviously taken with the cameraman standing behind the enormous flake, putting them just below where the girl is in pic 3. Thus, rather than being exposed above a 70-foot groundfall, they're about 1 metre off an enormous ledge.
Pic #2 appears to be on the section below that - a short, incredibly juggy slab close to the ground. Seriously, I've walked up things like that hands-free. Chance of holds breaking: approximately nil.
Final pic, extremely heavily rotated, is a bit difficult - I'm guessing this was taken facing outwards from near the top of the gully in pic 3 - . Once again, nearest stopping point approximately 1-2 metres below. Grade: ridiculously easy.
Storm, you're obviously a talented photographer - you even managed to fool some of the "experienced climbers" in this thread. The claims that you put your family in danger here are patently ridiculous.
To the authors of all the knee-jerk responses here: get some experience, develop some common sense, and get a life.
:evil:
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slcliffdiver
May 18, 2005, 9:51 AM
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Deleted to take the hook out of my mouth.
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slcliffdiver
May 18, 2005, 10:16 AM
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Deleted due to ODing on irony.
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pda2540
May 18, 2005, 1:25 PM
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I really have to step up here to say something important.
I actually like the term "freestyle" the way they are using it. The term itself is widely used and in many different contexts/sports/activities.
How can they be free 'soloing' when there are two people are doing it together? Sorry - that's not 'soloing' any more.
Seems to me free-styling connotes the concept that there are no rules - grab anything you want - make any move you can. Let your Mom shove you to the next handhold. No style points are being counted here. No facist grading system being imposed. 4th class - 5th class? Who cares?
"Freestyle" - - - nice term. These people are way ahead of you.
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tradman
May 18, 2005, 1:37 PM
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In rock climbing, "soloing" can be alongside as many people as you want. The key to the term is that you are not attached by a rope to your partner while climbing - you are climbing alone, hence "soloing".
There are as many types of soloing as there are styles of climbing: free climbing done alone becomes "free soloing", aid climbing becomes "aid soloing" and so on.
Hope that clears it up for you.
:wink:
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zozo
May 18, 2005, 1:44 PM
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In reply to: I really have to step up here to say something important.
We're waiting.............
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pda2540
May 18, 2005, 1:51 PM
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Sorry - no dice there, dude.
The "soloing" part does not mean "not connected to rope."
Plenty of people "solo" while being roped. The key to what they are doing is "alone."
In my view, what has become accepted jargon should not trump plain language meaning. Open your mind to the possibility that a new term might be useful.
The case at hand - these people are not even conventionally trained climbers - what they are doing is not constrained by your conventions. "Freestyle" seems to capture that well, in my opinion.
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dingus
May 18, 2005, 2:13 PM
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Just what you'd expect from rc.com...
Call the moderators! Call the admins! Someone has ruffled my feathers!
MOMMY! HE PUT HIS KIDS AS RISK!
MOM!!!
MOM???
mom?
(hello???)
DMT
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pmyche
May 18, 2005, 2:25 PM
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This guy solo'ed right past us the other day. Wait a sec...he was right by me... He wasn't soloing at all, the damn poser!
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nebo
May 18, 2005, 2:55 PM
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I guess the most amazing thing to me is that, as a result of these postings in a climbers forum on injuries and accidents, we have climbers writing to a parent to encourage him to continue risking the lives of his daughter and mother.
When I started this thread I had imagined it would be read by people who have an interest in preventing mountaineering and climbing accidents. Certainly there have been some readers who share that interest with me.
Overall though it is clear that this was not a well-selected forum for this purpose; definitely my bad to select it. I go back and look at those photos (which, by they way, the parents posted in a public forum and mailed the link to their entire mail list, so it became public business by their choice) and, even accounting for the trick photography, I see a child whose life has been irresponsibly placed at risk. In this forum, some participants describe it as "hiking choss" or, since they have concluded that it is 4th class, an insignificant risk comparable to bike riding or using public transportation.
Remember, by definition, 4th class is scrambling in a situation with sufficient exposure to produce a serious injury or death in the event of a fall; in my years of guiding, 4th class always meant students were roped up, if not belayed at least connected to handline via a prusik. While experienced climbers frequently climb 4th class terrain unroped (and sometimes die as a consequence), responsible climbers do not generally encourage children to do so.
My judgement, having examined the photographs and photoshopped them several times, remains that this is likely low 5th. But I also feel that the actual rating is beside the point. The point itself, a little girl named Raven, has, I'm afraid, been mostly lost in the majority of posts.
However, it is clear that was an inappropriate forum for the purpose. I made a very unskillful choice in using it as such, and I could have prevented that choice had I taken 10 minutes to read other threads in this forum before posting. My apologies.
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zoratao
May 18, 2005, 3:06 PM
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Seems like the publicity stunt, regardless of how the photo was manipulated, who was in how much danger was successful! :cry: :shock:
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dynosore
May 18, 2005, 3:27 PM
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nebo wrote:
In reply to: I guess the most amazing thing to me is that, as a result of these postings in a climbers forum on injuries and accidents, we have climbers writing to a parent to encourage him to continue risking the lives of his daughter and mother.
Why are you surprised? The world is full of morons. Obviously kids trust thier parents intrinsically up to a certain age, and taking advantage of that to sell your book and/or endanger them is about as low as you can sink. If she wants to solo when she's an adult, that's her choice. She didn't look like she was having too much fun to me.
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fiend
May 18, 2005, 3:36 PM
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Until someone actually goes out to talk to Storm and his family, this is all theory and conjecture.
Issues as serious as this simply cannot be decided by a few armchair CPA agents over the internet!
Anyone with children who contributed to this thread:
How would you enjoy a visit from the CPA because you posted something stupid on the internet?
A few concerned emails to a parent is one thing but I think this was taken too far buy a group of people who have no real idea of what's actually going on.
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noshoesnoshirt
May 18, 2005, 3:45 PM
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Kee-rist I'm glad this jerk-off nebo wasn't around when I was growing up - my poor dad woulda had a lot of 'splainin to do, and I might of ended up a pantywaist like nebo.
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graniteboy
May 18, 2005, 3:58 PM
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Well...Now that Bob Van Belle is physically Threatening people in here....we should all change our minds and call up ventura county CPS and tell them we made a horrible mistake, that we're terribly afraid that an old soft paunched alcoholic climber is "gonna get all up in our face", and that "Storm" is a loving, safe climbing father.......
NOT.
Too much continuous drivel in here. The district attorney and Child Protective Services have been called, as any parent with an I.Q. of 80 or higher would expect when they post photos of their kid and wife being browbeaten to solo some silly assed choss pile. Unfortunately, storm seems not to have those intellectual qualifications.
If the kid is living in a good environment, and this climb was so damned safe, then CPS will leave them alone. If not, then storm will have to do some soul searching when they start taking his kids away.
I know about doing risky things as a kid. I'm one of those guys who is lucky to be alive after all the stupid shit (like soloing 5.10) I did as a young teenager. It's how I got into climbing and freesoloing, both of which I still do a hell of a lot of. There is, however, a huge difference between doing something because you want to, because you're an obsessed climbing kid (my case) and doing it because you've been told by daddy that you will (raven's case).
So good luck beating people up, Bob Van Belle....I hope your health insurance is all paid up, cause running around threatening people and doing that kind of shit has a way of backfiring on you when you run into someone who's meaner than you and tough as hell, and who loves to fight.
In fact, by the looks of you, you could even get paid to take yourself over to the headquarters of the website Bumfights.com and perform....
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wonderwoman
May 18, 2005, 4:06 PM
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In reply to: Anyone with children who contributed to this thread: How would you enjoy a visit from the CPA because you posted something stupid on the internet?
No kidding! At first I had mixed feelings about this thread, but I think that people are taking serious actions without knowing all the facts. Having had foster sisters myself and having worked in a group home for kids and seeing the foster care system up close and personal, I am horrified at the idea of putting just any kid in the hands of social services without real valid cause. The fact is that kids sometimes die in foster care and are even sexually molested and physically abused by other kids in foster care or even by their foster parents. Foster care is a nightmare. If you want a dangerous and unstable place for children, foster care is a sure thing.
This all reminds me of when we took our daughter on the beehive trail in Acadia national park. She was 7 at the time and we were being gawked at by folks who normally don't hit the trail at all and considered the hike as dangerous. I vaguely remember someone asking us if this was 'safe' for her or if she was old enough. We said, yes it's safe. There are iron rungs all over the place and zero exposure. But I wonder if we were pegged as abusive or if someone went as far as to report us to the rangers.
I have a hard time judging these people without actually seeing the climb. It scares me to think that these kids may now be in real danger if they were not before. Not all foster families are angels. Some of them like the extra check and some of them are just predators who like to abuse children.
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jpdreamer
May 18, 2005, 4:27 PM
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My point in comparing it to the subway or the sidewalk is this: Is walking along a sidewalk dangerous? Of course! The kid has inately no sense of the danger, they may jump around, run into the street, they could make a lot of mistakes which could kill themselves. Consequently, no responsible parent would let their kid walk down a sidewalk alone, they need to provide adequate safety measures, so when the kid starts to jump off the curb the parent grabs them and sys "No! That's very dangerous Johnny, just look if that car had hit you you would be dead!" And so on. However, if the kid has walked down the sidewalk several times before and is careful, not jumping off the curb, looking both ways before crossing the street, etc, then they have learned how to mitigate the dangers in an unsafe environment and allowing them to do so alone, due to their experience, makes sense and is not endangerment even though they are in a situation where one wrong move could be fatal. People like to say even experienced rock climbers have slipped and fallen and died on 4th class terrain. Well every year experienced street crossers are hit by cars and sidewalk walkers trip and fall into traffic. My friend's brother was killed while crossing a street in downtown Chicago, so these risks are not eliminated.
Storm has said that Raven practiced the scramble with a rope on first and that this is in their backyard essentially. Thus, when introducing her to a risky situation he took measures so she could learn to be safe in an unsafe situation. Nemo talks about how while guiding people, such as urban San Fransiscoites, he always roped them up while tackling 4th class because of the dangers inherent. Good! They havn't leanrned how to be safe in that environment yet, they should be roped up! But it would be pretty rediculous if while at the street corner he said "Alright, now everyone hold hands and follow me while we cross the street. Now first look both ways, alright are we sure a cars are stopped? Okay, now we can cross, but stay with me!" Why? Because they have ample street crossing experience and know how to be safe while doing so. The dangers of an urban area are in their backyard, so to speak. Just like, according to the information presented, this scramble is to Raven.
The tone of the website is troubling, but there are numerous explainations for that, probably to promote this silly adrenalin thing. So, to say based on that without meeting and observing the parents in person, talking to their frineds and neighbors, etc. that the dad is a "David Koresh" type charachter is absurd.
Equally absurd is the notion that adrenalin loaded meat causes people to tense up in scarry situations. I mean deer just eat grass, and you don't see them diving out of the way when a car is bareling down, just tense up and freeze.
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oldcragrat
May 18, 2005, 4:31 PM
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After reading all 11 pages of this (I admit, with some shame), I'm reminded of something my wife and I witnessed while at the video store about a year ago. Some guy had run in to drop his movies off in the drop off slot. Another guy came in right behind him and said he worked for DHS (that's the CPS agency here in Or-y-gun). He even had his ID around his neck to prove it. Apparently, the 1st guy left his sleeping toddler in the car while he rushed in-something most of us with kids have done at least once. Anyway, DHS guy informed this man he had used his cell phone to call the cops, as what he'd done was illegal, and threatened to physically restrain him if he tried to leave befor the police arrived. We left just as the cops were arriving, so didn't see the outcome.
This thread has been very disturbing. I'm a father, and I've worked with at-risk kids in wilderness programs most of my adult life. I am a mandated reporter and I don't know what I'd do. I do know strange things happen when you don't have the whole story... :wtf:
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jt512
May 18, 2005, 5:03 PM
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In reply to: Anyone with children who contributed to this thread: How would you enjoy a visit from the CPA because you posted something stupid on the internet?
On the other hand, if you're stupid enough to post something on the internet that suggests that you are recklessly endangering your child's life, then you you shouldn't be too surprised if someone sees it and calls CPS.
-Jay
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bvb
May 18, 2005, 5:13 PM
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In reply to: Well...Now that Bob Van Belle is physically Threatening people in here
when i talk about getting up in someone's face, it means getting loud and verbal.
contacting the authorities over some flake's tilted photos on a website. please. between your post about me and you actions with the cops, you win my drama queen of the year award. congrats.
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yosemite
May 18, 2005, 5:50 PM
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Was Raven forced or manipulated into doing this climb? That, to me, is the 'crux' of the (non)issue. If she was coerced into being an unwilling pawn used to promote her Dad's DVD, that's a problem. If the climb is in her backyard and she has been romping up it since she was potty trained, no big deal.
We don't know the situation. We don't know if it's Class III or 5.whatever. We don't even know how steep or chossy it really is. We don't know jack.
But why should that keep us from judging others?
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blonde_loves_bolts
May 18, 2005, 5:50 PM
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In reply to: suck a dick, nebo. you're trying to blow all this s--- you started off as if it's part of your personal journey towards the light. meanwhile, you f--- with other people by firing off e-mails to the cops. i'm the father of an autistic 12 year old boy, and am WAY too familiar with people like you...safely on the sidelines, clueless, taking casual potshots at things you don't understand. stay out of flagstaff, b----. i ever see you, i'm gonna get right up in your face. asshole.
If that's not a physical threat, I'd rather not find out what is. Agree or disagree, but have enough respect to do it tastefully.
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micahmcguire
May 18, 2005, 5:58 PM
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bvb, I don't respond to threats or name-calling. I consider myself a mature adult, a professional in my field, and a level-headed individual. I see something that might or might not be a serious situation. To me, it looks like one misstep will send one of these kids to Davy Jones' Locker. I could be wrong. If there is nothing wrong with what these parents are doing, then CPS will find out for themselves. That is what they do. What it looks like to me however, and to many other people, is that these parents are needlessly risking the lives of their children on the advise, nay, insistance of their parents. If that is the case, then Storm and Jinjee do not deserve to keep their beautiful children. I would really feel terrible if I chose to do nothing, and one day saw in the news that "a young girl in CA plunged to her death today while freesoloing at the insistance of her father." Could anyone really live with themselves knowing that one measley phone call could have meant the difference between life and death for these kids...after it was too late??
Not to mention that in my job, I have a duty to report cases of suspected child abuse, neglect, or endangerment. This more than qualifies. BVB, I don't care what you call me or how you threaten me. Sticks and stones mate, and I'd looooooove to see you come up here to AK and start some shit. Go right ahead if you care so much. I'll be waiting waiting with bells on.
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couchwarrior
May 18, 2005, 6:08 PM
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I think it's time for an old-fashioned thread locking.
I doubt any of you keyboard gladiators will ever actually mix it up but I'd be willing to kick in $50 towards airfare or a motel room to make it happen so you can take your dick-measuring somewhere else. Maybe one of the mods can collect the $$$$.
I'm serious. Just let me know where to paypal my $50. I'm only contributing towards travel expenses for one of you he-men, though. No Emergicare invoices!
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yosemite
May 18, 2005, 6:14 PM
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In reply to: bvb, I don't respond to threats or name-calling. Blah, blah, blah. I'll be waiting waiting with bells on.
I think you just responded. :lol:
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mackavus
May 18, 2005, 6:16 PM
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In reply to: This whole f---ing thread makes me want to take a shower.
This whole fucking thread makes me want to masturbate, and then jiz all over my hands and mix it with mayonaise and then rub it on the grass and see if it attracts ants.
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wonderwoman
May 18, 2005, 6:17 PM
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In reply to: If there is nothing wrong with what these parents are doing, then CPS will find out for themselves. That is what they do.
I think your heart is in the right place and you're intentions are good. However, I think you have too much faith in the failing safety net of foster care. Once CPS comes in and physically takes your kids, it's not easy to get them back. They usually get split up according to gender, age and availability of beds.
I've knew a good 12 year old kid who had to spend a few nights in a jail cell (surrounded by real adult criminals) just because there was no beds open anywhere else. He wasn't a criminal, but was taken from his home because he was being abused in his foster home. I am not going to get into details here, but I've known kids that have permanent physical and emotional scars from short term stays in foster care. I think you have to ask yourself if the perceived risks you see in these pictures adequately measure up to the real risk of placing these kids in state custody.
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feanor007
May 18, 2005, 6:33 PM
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trust the over-litigous california people to screw somthing up.
there is a differance between encouraging some one to do something and forcing them.
nebo-> you've given your background, and from the topic title 'scolding' i don't think you intended the CPS to get involved, but i want to know your connection with storm. i can't believe you ramdomly saw this and decided to make it your first post. you both have long climbing histories in the same area, so i'm thinking you know each other and came to rc.com to get some evidence for an argument the two of you've been having
bvb-> amen
graniteboy-> i don't know what it's like where your from, but here in kentucky, you mess with someones family, and we don't take it very kindly. the whole family, bothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, and third cousins is gonna let ya know how they feel. so keep your crap over on the west coast.
flame away about how we are backwards hicks and what not, but at least we've got our honor
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jkornelis
May 18, 2005, 6:49 PM
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It must be official... Since I do Foster care, I must be an evil, child molesting, money hungry person. I get paid to put foster care kids into hard labor while I sit and surf the Internet for kiddie porn all day long. :roll:
Yes there are bad parents :shock: and yes there are bad foster care parents. :oops: Please do not put all of us in one category, that is the full extent of prejudice!
In fact I am in more debt because of MY children. I try all I can to help them develop into adults who will not make the same mistakes their parents made.
If you are not pleased with how some foster care homes are run... Open your home to these children, so they are not put in the few "bad" foster homes.
Please Flame me more because I extend love and care to those whose biological parents could not!!!
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md3
May 18, 2005, 7:05 PM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=45800
Storm shouldn't be advertising himself as a climbing instructor, but the reactions in this thread are offensive. He clearly cares about his family and hes out there doing things with them.
There were better options than reporting this to CPS.
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wonderwoman
May 18, 2005, 7:13 PM
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In reply to: It must be official... Since I do Foster care, I must be an evil, child molesting, money hungry person. I get paid to put foster care kids into hard labor while I sit and surf the Internet for kiddie porn all day long. :roll: Yes there are bad parents :shock: and yes there are bad foster care parents. :oops: Please do not put all of us in one category, that is the full extent of prejudice! In fact I am in more debt because of MY children. I try all I can to help them develop into adults who will not make the same mistakes their parents made. If you are not pleased with how some foster care homes are run... Open your home to these children, so they are not put in the few "bad" foster homes. Please Flame me more because I extend love and care to those whose biological parents could not!!!
Sorry that you took offense. I also grew up with foster-sisters in my house. My mom was always taking in stray cats and stray kids. My parents were very good to them. However, everytime a kid goes into foster care, it's a gamble because you don't know where they end up. They would be lucky to end up in your house, but unfortunately there is just no telling.
PS - The toenail crisis is under control. Thanks for you PM :D
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nebo
May 18, 2005, 7:22 PM
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Hi everyone,
Storm and I have had some very productive offline emails around this topic, which we are both watching closely. I want to give him kudos for his strength of character--not once has gotten hooked enough to launch counterattacks. Instead, he has very graciously taken the initiative to keep communication going with me. From my reading of his emails, I feel he and Jinjee have used this as an opportunity for dialogue, self-examination, learning, and growth. I admire that a great deal in person. I want to be more like that when I grow up.
Based on what he has written, I feel that my original concern has been addressed. If he and his family climb more in the future, I am confident that he and Jinjee both will thoughtfully consider all that has been written here, all sides of the arguments, and that whatever choice they then make will be influenced by what we have written.
Thank you everyone for your participation. I wish we could have done this with a little more light, a little less heat. But climbers climb with passion, and it spills over...
Storm, if you would like to post our most recent emails as postscript here, feel free to. It might be a welcomed closure for those who have given their time to this debate.
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nebo
May 18, 2005, 7:33 PM
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In reply to: suck a dick, nebo. you're trying to blow all this s--- you started off as if it's part of your personal journey towards the light. meanwhile, you f--- with other people by firing off e-mails to the cops. i'm the father of an autistic 12 year old boy, and am WAY too familiar with people like you...safely on the sidelines, clueless, taking casual potshots at things you don't understand. stay out of flagstaff, b----. i ever see you, i'm gonna get right up in your face. asshole.
Hi BVD, you have indicated that you didn't mean this as a threat. However, when I read it I certainly took it as one, as I imagine most people would. I can't say I feel threatened enough to stay out of flagstaff--that's a tad absurd. But it is certainly an unpleasant (and ineffective) way to communicate your opinion. Otherwise, thanks for your participation in this forum.
And by the way, yes, this and everything I do is part of my personal journey toward the light. Often through the fog.
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micahmcguire
May 18, 2005, 8:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If there is nothing wrong with what these parents are doing, then CPS will find out for themselves. That is what they do. I think your heart is in the right place and you're intentions are good. However, I think you have too much faith in the failing safety net of foster care. Once CPS comes in and physically takes your kids, it's not easy to get them back. They usually get split up according to gender, age and availability of beds. I've knew a good 12 year old kid who had to spend a few nights in a jail cell (surrounded by real adult criminals) just because there was no beds open anywhere else. He wasn't a criminal, but was taken from his home because he was being abused in his foster home. I am not going to get into details here, but I've known kids that have permanent physical and emotional scars from short term stays in foster care. I think you have to ask yourself if the perceived risks you see in these pictures adequately measure up to the real risk of placing these kids in state custody.
You are right, foster care can be hard on children. Certainly, in an ideal world, children should stay with their parents. However, in an ideal world, children should be able to trust their parents to keep them safe, prohibit unsafe behavior, and protect them from danger. None of the above is going on in this situation. In fact, in the case of these children, the parents are encouraging "laying their life on the line because it makes them a better person...."
Better to be in foster care (the majority of which is perfectly fine-not all foster parents are sexual predators or run sweat shops) than dead due to the irresponsibility of the biological parents.
I'm not backing down on this. CPS has been called and notified. The ball has been started rolling.
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bvb
May 18, 2005, 9:05 PM
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i had resolved to drop this and post no more, but i gotta say it, micah, you are such a monumental ass.
all i can imagine is that you are too young, and have experienced far too few of life's hard knocks, to have any real idea about what you are doing. at least i can take solace in the notion that if cps does "look into this", they will quickly dismiss it as an errant report from some knucklehead who spends way to much time on the internet.
wanna buy a bridge, micah?
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johnhemlock
May 18, 2005, 10:03 PM
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I visited Storm's website and all I saw was a nuclear family doing the best they can - loving parents and healthy, curious children. Perhaps the partially-hydrogenated, must see TV watching, Williams Sonoma nesting instinctive, small minded cubicle dwellers among us are bothered by something more than the photos?
I guess the only question I have of Storm is this:
Want to adopt a 36 year old man?
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micahmcguire
May 18, 2005, 10:27 PM
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In reply to: i had resolved to drop this and post no more, but i gotta say it, micah, you are such a monumental ass. all i can imagine is that you are too young, and have experienced far too few of life's hard knocks, to have any real idea about what you are doing. at least i can take solace in the notion that if cps does "look into this", they will quickly dismiss it as an errant report from some knucklehead who spends way to much time on the internet. wanna buy a bridge, micah?
I hope that CPS does dismiss it as nothing. I hope there is nothing. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Where there's no smoke, there's no fire. Hopefully this situation is under control. If not, it will be brought under control somehow.
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storm
May 18, 2005, 10:46 PM
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Storm's final post
I thought that I would put up a final post so as to bring a sense of closure
to this forum or my part in it anyway.
I would like to start off by saying that I do not do really high free climbs
with young people anymore. I did do it in the early eighties for five years
and I'm not apologizing for it. At the end of five years with no one so
much as breaking a finger nail I stopped. I have no intention of doing free
solo climbing anymore with my or anyone else's kids.
I do have every intention of doing the type of mental climbing/hiking with
my kids where it looks really steep but if you should by chance fall you
won't break any bones or get really hurt. I also plan on making films that
feature climbing scenes in them that look really steep. I will achieve this
by camera angles and special effects. The films that I'm making are not a
how to on rock climbing, the climbing featured in these films is part of the
story line.
Now I don't wish to condemn the whole rock climbing community because in the
last few days I have met some truly fine people. I have tried to read every
post and respond to every email. And I feel like I'm on pretty sure ground
when I say that some of you have totally crossed the line.
It is one thing to communicate with someone that you don't agree with what
they are doing. I can take that. For the five years that I did have my
school I took a lot of heat. But I really don't need the approval of the
group to validate me.
But I think that you totally cross the line when you don't get all of the
facts straight and then go and try to get someone's kids taken away. There
were many people in the forum who said that it looked like the kids were in
no danger it was just the camera angle. Which is what it was.
The thing that really disturbs me about this whole affair is the level of
rudeness. If I were still doing free climbing and I was attacked on that
level by a group of people it would just make me more determined to keep
doing it. I just don't give a fuck what other people think.
My position is that I'm neither for nor against people teaching solo
climbing to young people. Each situation is totally different and before I
could pass judgement I would have to meet all of the people involved see the
climbing site and get a real feeling for whether or not this is right.
But to make all of these judgements based on a website for a film, and then
try to contact child services and get people's kids taken away has left me
with such a level of disgust that I really haven't totally processed yet, it
is just too big.
So many of you come off as such self righteous, pompous assholes, filled
with such phony anger until it has really made Jinjee and I totally sick to
our stomachs.
Each of us comes to the mountain for a different reason and it is very
personal. Like the girl in Hawaii who had her arm bitten off by a shark.
Her Dad let her get back in the water; should he have his child taken away?
Or do we feel that we are seeing someone who has true courage
I called Child Protective Services and explained the situation to them and I told them that I would meet with them anytime if they had any questions about whether or not my kids were in any real danger. They are not going to take my kids away so now we all just need to move on.
I have no intention of ever being a part of the Rock Climbing Community. but I am going to include a lot of the posts and emails that I got, in the final film because I think that this is a huge issue that spills over into other facets of life. Some of the posts were so vicious as to be unbelievable. My kids were actually scared. Raven and Jome started packing knives and my four year girl kept asking if the Rock Climbers were coming to get us.
In parting I would like to once again say that I have met some really fine
people in this community and I'm going to close with an email that I got
from B.V.B.
all the best
storm
Hi Storm
i've been climbing for 35 years, and i'm totally in synch with how you are
raising your kids. i have an autistic boy, who learned to climb before he
could walk, and had him soloing 30' routes by the time he was 4 -- patagonia
even took a pic of him soloing and ran it in outside magazine.
without getting too much into ego crap, i am a "famous" climber (lots of
climbing and rock and ice magazine covers, free ascents of el cap, blah blah
blah)
point is -- in the unlikely event that you guys get any flak -- please feel
free to ask me for help. in addition to being a name-brand climber, i'm a
senior career park ranger with the National Park Service, yadda yadda
you people just follow your bliss. it gives me peace of mind knowing there
are still so many fellow travelers such as you and your family out there!
peace
out
bob van belle
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erisspirit
May 18, 2005, 11:02 PM
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I have avoiding posting at all because I thought this was all nonsense.
As I child I climbed many things just like in the photos. Remember the angle makes it look steeper than it is. I think people on this site over reacted without all the information, and calling CPS is something you do when you KNOW there is a problem, and not for a couple photos that were edited to make it look harder than it was. I am so tempted to hunt out the climb that all this is over.
Although I find their lifestyle a bit odd. I see a solid family unit... OMG TWO PARENTS!!! count them TWO. I think I have one friend other than myself that can brag that one.
Storm: you have lovely children and Ojai is a gorgeous area and I wish I had it as my backyard too
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pt
May 18, 2005, 11:24 PM
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My one post in this thread was in support of Storm, yet I am still embarrassed to be part of the RC.com community right now. I think Storm's final post is very eloquently written and should rightfully end the speculation and witch hunting.
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nebo
May 18, 2005, 11:30 PM
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I'm done too--this is my last viewing and post to this forum. Thanks all for participating.
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dingus
May 18, 2005, 11:37 PM
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In reply to: But to make all of these judgements based on a website for a film, and then try to contact child services and get people's kids taken away has left me with such a level of disgust that I really haven't totally processed yet, it is just too big.
You aren't the only one storm, but obviously the most affected.
To those of you who crossed the bounds of virtual opinion and attempted to project your remote opinions into the physical world of someone else's kids, I can only wish that some day you get as good as you have given.
And I mean that from the bottom of my heart.
DMT
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healyje
May 19, 2005, 12:38 AM
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In reply to: My position is that I'm neither for nor against people teaching solo climbing to young people.
Storm, while I heartily agree with many of your beliefs and goals, I'll close reiterating my personal belief that soloing is something that people of any age should discover and explore on their own terms and in their own time - that it is an inappropriate educational tool or "rite of passage" if for no other reason than preserving what might be one of the more simple and "pure" exercises in self awareness and personal responsibility a person can experience in today's increasingly complex and interconnected world...
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pru
May 19, 2005, 2:59 PM
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Storm, your family is absolutely beautiful and your lifestyle is enviable. As you may have guessed, rockclimbing.com is frequented primarily by people who are complete dumbasses. The fact that some of them crossed the line and took action that could have ripped your family apart is reprehensible. It seems to me that these people have no lives of their own. I'm very glad to hear that CPS isn't going to make a mistake here.
Peace to you and yours.
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graniteboy
May 19, 2005, 4:03 PM
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In reply to: My kids were actually scared. Raven and Jome started packing knives and my four year girl kept asking if the Rock Climbers were coming to get us.
Right....it's the Climbers who are the bad guys here....Funny that you would "share" all this stuff with the kids (with your own "interpretation", telling the kids that the climbers were coming to get them.....), and in the process, scare the hell out of them........your personality type is coming through loud and clear from that scared kids statement....David Koresh behaved in much the same way you are....scare the followers into believing that the bad guys and the apocalypse are coming to get them.....and that you're their only salvation....
You have, of course, turned this whole thing around in your own head to make yourself believe that you are the "victim" here...because, with your personality disorders, you cannot see beyond the confines of your own ego...what this is really about, and what we called the cops on you about, is your children's safety, which you habitually compromised and refuse to see.
I quit. You can talk to CPS and the D.A. when they show up, "storm", er...I mean Gerald. You belong in a mental institution, where you can't hurt your kids or screw their brains up anymore. But that's a pretty common occurrence for the L.A. area, enit???
Have fun chewing on twigs and lice... :lol: but don't pressure your kids and wife to solo anymore.
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crimpandgo
May 19, 2005, 4:25 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: My kids were actually scared. Raven and Jome started packing knives and my four year girl kept asking if the Rock Climbers were coming to get us. Right....it's the Climbers who are the bad guys here.... Funny that you would "share" all this stuff with the kids (with your own "interpretation", telling the kids that the climbers were coming to get them.....), and in the process, scare the hell out of them........your personality type is coming through loud and clear from that scared kids statement....David Koresh behaved in much the same way you are....scare the followers into believing that the bad guys and the apocalypse are coming to get them.....and that you're their only salvation.... You have, of course, turned this whole thing around in your own head to make yourself believe that you are the "victim" here...because, with your personality disorders, you cannot see beyond the confines of your own ego...what this is really about, and what we called the cops on you about, is your children's safety, which you habitually compromised and refuse to see. I quit. You can talk to CPS and the D.A. when they show up, "storm", er...I mean Gerald. You belong in a mental institution, where you can't hurt your kids or screw their brains up anymore. But that's a pretty common occurrence for the L.A. area, enit??? Have fun chewing on twigs and lice... :lol: but don't pressure your kids and wife to solo anymore.
I hate to tell you bro, but Storm is his kids only salvation.... Well besides his wife and Faith of course.... I tell my kids on a daily basis that family is the only people you can truely trust to be their when you need them the most. Friends come and go and folks like you, well, I think your posts speak for themselves.
Secondly, You assume that Storm "told" them about this stuff. Maybe they read it for themselves. Did you think of that? This is an open site you know. Your slandering can be read by all. I have kids at a similar age and I would have my kids read these posts and let them make their own decision about how they feel. I gaurantee you my kids would be horrified by what they have been reading. at age 11 they are perfectly capable of understanding what they think is right and wrong in this world and are very capable of forming their own opinions.
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elvislegs
May 19, 2005, 4:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: But to make all of these judgements based on a website for a film, and then try to contact child services and get people's kids taken away has left me with such a level of disgust that I really haven't totally processed yet, it is just too big. You aren't the only one storm, but obviously the most affected. To those of you who crossed the bounds of virtual opinion and attempted to project your remote opinions into the physical world of someone else's kids, I can only wish that some day you get as good as you have given. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart. DMT
word to that dingus.
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jammer
May 19, 2005, 5:13 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: But to make all of these judgements based on a website for a film, and then try to contact child services and get people's kids taken away has left me with such a level of disgust that I really haven't totally processed yet, it is just too big. You aren't the only one storm, but obviously the most affected. To those of you who crossed the bounds of virtual opinion and attempted to project your remote opinions into the physical world of someone else's kids, I can only wish that some day you get as good as you have given. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart. DMT word to that dingus.
Agree.
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corpse
May 19, 2005, 5:17 PM
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Stay at home moms have Days of Our Lives.
Climbers at work have rc.com :-)
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dynosore
May 19, 2005, 5:21 PM
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In reply to: I hate to tell you bro, but Storm is his kids only salvation.... Well besides his wife and Faith of course.... I tell my kids on a daily basis that family is the only people you can truely trust to be their when you need them the most. Friends come and go and folks like you, well, I think your posts speak for themselves.
Sounds like your trying to brainwash your kids. Tell that to kids whose parents abuse them. The best thing I ever did was get away from my family. I trust my few close friends infinitely more than my parents.....
What type of whack job calls himself "Storm" anyways :?: A legend in his own mind perhaps.
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jpdreamer
May 19, 2005, 5:32 PM
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I rather like the names Storm, Raven, and Jinji. Particularly Jinji. A hell of a lot better than Matilda anyway.
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micahmcguire
May 19, 2005, 5:43 PM
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"I hate to tell you bro, but Storm is his kids only salvation.... Well besides his wife and Faith of course.... I tell my kids on a daily basis that family is the only people you can truly trust to be their when you need them the most. Friends come and go and folks like you, well, I think your posts speak for themselves. "
And I hate to keep this fire burning, but I'm still going to have to call bullspit on this one. You telling your kids daily that they can trust their own family is fine, but not all families are trustworthy (obviously). Here in AK we recently prosecuted a couple of parents who were beating their children with rubber hoses, starving them, making them live in cages or tied to trees outside like dogs, and neglecting to give them much-needed medical care (I wonder when the last time Ravin et. al had proper medical, dental, optical, etc. check-ups? I know they were all born with just their mother and father present, which is quite needlessly risky in and of itself). These people were "family" for the children, but they were the last people in the world the children ought to trust.
In an ideal world, family should be what you said-people who will care for you no matter what and be there for you through thick and thin....but this is not always the case. And in the case of the Talifero family, I suspect that the parents cannot be trusted. I don't doubt that they love their kids. I don't doubt that they want to make their kids into what they perceive as being strong, healthy, and self-reliant people. But I doubt that they are using (or are capable of using) good judgement when it comes to taking unneccessary risks with their childrens lives.
I've heard alot of people equate the type of free-soloing that Gerald aka "Storm" (sheesh) is training his children to perform to obviously safer sports like toproped climbing, sailing (by the man himself), etc. The obvious difference here is that when you are free-soloing, one slip could very easily mean death. This is obviously not the case with the other "extreme" sports mentioned here. Even skydiving has a very low accident rate-and it is because of the use of proper equipment and training. Climbing is a sport that, in order to actually be "safe" requires equipment and training as well. To climb without this equipment and training is unsafe, just like walking on a high-line with no net is unsafe, or wandering around on the wing of a flying airplane is unsafe. People can still be good at doing these risky stunts, but that does not make them "safe." I still shake my head when I read those posts on this thread that actually have the gall to compare the dangers of soloing with those of toproped climbing. Are you smoking crack?? Of course soloing is much, much more dangerous. Geeze!
Perhaps as serious than the free-soloing is the fact that Gerald allowed Jijee's four children to be born without the presence of any medically trained personell. Fortunately for Jinjee and their kids, everything went fine. What if one of them had presented in a breech position? Would Gerald have known what to do? Would he have known what to do to prevent the aspiration of meconium should that have been a problem? What if the child were stillborn, would have have had the proper equipment to try and revive it? Did Gerald examine the placenta after it presented to make sure there weren't any problems with that? And what if his wife had begun bleeding uncontrollably, or needed a C-section to remove the child? What are his credentials? Would he have known what kind of complications, however unlikely, might arise? Would he have even let her seek professional treatment if it were required? Or would he have thought that she was faking it, just like Jinjee thought that Raven was faking her terror on that 7-story freesolo? Does he even have EMT or equivalent training? Jesus man! I can understand the hypothetical beauty of having such an intimate family moment at home instead of in a hospital, but not even to have a midwife or even an EMT present....sounds like he was playing the odds to me. That is recklessness, and for whose sake? Probably his own, to preserve his sense of "what is natural." Damn hippies.
And I don't buy it for a second when Gerald says "I don't teach my kids to free solo anymore, and haven't for five years." Bull-ass-crap. I saw recent pictures of your wife and daughter free-soloing. We all did. Your wife wrote that you have been training your children to climb without ropes since "before they could walk." And you don't teach kids to free-solo anymore? How can you expect me to believe that obvious lie? And what's with letting your kids "pack knives?" Are you encouraging them to resort to violence on your behalf when CPS shows up?
The more I hear, the more I feel these children are in imminent danger. Lets just hope they haven't been suckered into any suicide pacts or anything.
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corpse
May 19, 2005, 5:50 PM
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I think they have cool names too - but this is coming from a guy that named his daughter Paris.
Hey Storm, how about posting the original pics for some of these people. It would be interesting to see the actual terrain, undistorted. I know my kids have gone up some crappy loose 4th class stuff with me and without me.. Where a fall would have resulted in quite a few scrapes and bruises, or broken bones I suppose, if they rolled 50 feet down a pebble-laden choss pile.
I have never liked the idea of exploiting kids for a profit.. Instead of picking on someone that has different values as us, who may be exploiting their kids a bit, perhaps you should be picking on the corporations that are exploiting kids (making commercials) to sell crap to the other kids (Watching the tv). 2 pops a day and a couple twinkies, or vegan diet? I would think the vegan diet would leave you much healthier.. I can't stand veggie/vegan diets, as I'm a hardcore carnivore, but the fact is they are making positive choices there. Go on a witch hunt for moms that give their kids cold medicine to put em to bed sooner.
edit:
Yeah, packin knives is definitely spooky. Maybe the kids are packing because they don't trust dad can really protect them? Troubling for sure.. I agree with the one comment too - building fear in children can make the kids trust more out of, well, fear. Well, not "trust", just not question. And why would the kids think "climbers are coming to get us".
Storm just discovered the site not long ago, and I can't imagine his just letting his younger kids visit rc.com (he's so involved, right?). I wouldn't let my 11 or 8 yr old visit this site, too much adult stuff on here.
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nomorec4
May 19, 2005, 5:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: But to make all of these judgements based on a website for a film, and then try to contact child services and get people's kids taken away has left me with such a level of disgust that I really haven't totally processed yet, it is just too big. You aren't the only one storm, but obviously the most affected. To those of you who crossed the bounds of virtual opinion and attempted to project your remote opinions into the physical world of someone else's kids, I can only wish that some day you get as good as you have given. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart. DMT word to that dingus.
I'll give that statement a third.
What I did learn from all these self-righteous a-holes is that I mistakenly thought I was had loving, caring father who went out of his way to show and share with me the things that make life worth living. All my friends were infinitely jealous, as I rolled the dice in the name of fun. Skiing (w/o helmet) at 5, riding dirt bikes at 9 (no real protection other than helmet), driving a tractor at 10 on the farm, Longs Peak at 11(homestretch is a little dangerous by the standards were applying to Storm isn't it), water skiing, cliff diving, etc.............
Now I realize I was being abused and endangered :shock:
How far our country has fallen. :(
Storm,
I am sure that this experience has probably only solidified your feelings about what is wrong with our society. You are not alone here either. I commend you for keeping a civil tone and trying to reason with irrational busy bodies. Live your life! Love your family! Ignore the fools!
Good Day,
Sean
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pru
May 19, 2005, 6:17 PM
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In reply to: blah blah blah |
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kixrox
May 19, 2005, 6:28 PM
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graniteboy you are an idiot as is everyone else who is critical of this family.
how can you all sit in judgement based on pix on a website? calling child protective services on a loving family? what comes around idiots.......
Many Blessings to your family Storm.
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crimpandgo
May 19, 2005, 6:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I hate to tell you bro, but Storm is his kids only salvation.... Well besides his wife and Faith of course.... I tell my kids on a daily basis that family is the only people you can truely trust to be their when you need them the most. Friends come and go and folks like you, well, I think your posts speak for themselves. Sounds like your trying to brainwash your kids. Tell that to kids whose parents abuse them. The best thing I ever did was get away from my family. I trust my few close friends infinitely more than my parents..... What type of whack job calls himself "Storm" anyways :?: A legend in his own mind perhaps.
I am not brainwashing them. Its a simple fact in most normal everyday lives that your family unit is the foundation of our lives.
As I stated in previous posts and you have re-stated, there are obvious exceptions. Those exceptions need to be dealt with appropriately.
I simply contest that you cannot judge if this situation being debated falls into the exception category simply based on info you have seen via an internet site. If you react simply to what you read, than you equally contribute to the wrongdoings of our society as you are trying to protect against.
Last time I checked, our society was based on the idea that you were innocent until proven guilty. At least get personal/physical proof before slinging a man's name in the mud. And as other have said, remember what goes around comes around.
And lastly, who gives a F*ck what someone names themselves. I have come across some pretty freaky people in my time. Last time I checked they had pretty normal names. Matter of fact most of your really freaky people are known for "blending" into society really well. That is why they remain undetected for long period of times.
Don't judge a book by its cover. At least do your research and back your accusations up.
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taualum23
May 19, 2005, 7:20 PM
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Bungee jumping is a rite of passage?
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the_pirate
May 19, 2005, 7:24 PM
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In reply to: I tell my kids on a daily basis that family is the only people you can truely trust to be their when you need them the most.
That's what Cain said to Able.
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micahmcguire
May 19, 2005, 7:27 PM
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what if the pics showed the parents snorting cocaine near their kids? would that be enough to call the authorities? what if the pictures showed the kids being sexually exploited? would that be sufficient? These pictures, and the descriptions that go with them, indicate that theparents are placing their children in harm's way. This is wrong, wrong, wrong; I don't care how you were raised or how crappy your folks were. What if instead of free-soloing, they were encouraging their kids to run across highways through rush hour traffic to inmprove their courage and coordination? What would you apologists think then?
Like I have said a few times, if there is nothing bad going on, then the professionals in Ventura County whose job it is to investigate situations of possible child endangerment will decide that nothing requires their intervention. If that is the case, no skin off anyone's nose, no harm, no foul. I truly hope this is the case. However, if they do find evidence of wanton endangerment, and do find sufficient cause to place the children in protective custody, then thank goodness myself and others involved in this thread had the guts to do something instead of just watch from the sidelines. What if our actions result in the prevention of a child's death? Will we be justified then? What if we read in the paper tommorow about Raven falling to her death while doing one of these solos? Should we have done something when we could? I'm not going to wait until one of them dies to do something.
My point is, by referring this family to CPS, I have by no means garunteed that the family will be broken up. All I have done is to alert an agency whose job it is to FIND OUT FOR SURE. What is wrong with finding out for sure? If there's no smoke, there's no fire. One more time for clarification-
If there's no smoke, there's no fire.
I do not know for sure; I have merely stumbled upon suspicious evidence (and photos with descriptions are reasonable sources of suspicion) and passed that evidence along.
Regardless of how big an asshole you think I am by doing this, it is actually my job. As a paramedic, I am required by law to report suspected cases of child abuse, neglect, and endangerment. Its not my passion, I don't go on witch hunts to try and split up families, its not a hobby of mine-IT'S MY JOB! If I treat a child with burns that look like they were done with the butt of a cigarette, I make a report of it. If I find suspicious bruising on a child, I report it. If I find that a parent has been deliberately placing their child in a recklessly dangerous situation-including things as simple as not requiring their child to wear a seat belt while driving or life-jacket while boating, I am BOUND BY LAW TO REPORT IT! I don't physically break up the family, I simply pass along pertinant information.
If there is no reason to remove the children into protective custody, then they will not be removed. Trust that the professionals who work for CPS will do their job and ascertain this for themselves.
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bvb
May 19, 2005, 7:28 PM
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In reply to: Bungee jumping is a rite of passage?
dude, trust me, those guys ain't bungee jumping.
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micahmcguire
May 19, 2005, 7:42 PM
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that looks pretty rough on the ankles to me. I think I'll report it to my supervisor.....har har
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the_pirate
May 19, 2005, 7:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Bungee jumping is a rite of passage? dude, trust me, those guys ain't bungee jumping.
It's a piece of vine.
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dingus
May 19, 2005, 7:49 PM
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In reply to: I am BOUND BY LAW TO REPORT IT!
Where do you work and who is your supervisor.
Put your money where your mouth is big guy... You ready to stand up for you actions?
I'm serious, post up or get off the high horse.
DMT
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crimpandgo
May 19, 2005, 7:52 PM
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In reply to: what if the pics showed the parents snorting cocaine near their kids? would that be enough to call the authorities? what if the pictures showed the kids being sexually exploited? would that be sufficient? These pictures, and the descriptions that go with them, indicate that theparents are placing their children in harm's way. This is wrong, wrong, wrong; I don't care how you were raised or how crappy your folks were. Like I have said a few times, if there is nothing bad going on, then the professionals in Ventura County whose job it is to investigate situations of possible child endangerment will decide that nothing requires their intervention. If that is the case, no skin off anyone's nose, no harm, no foul. I truly hope this is the case. However, if they do find evidence of wanton endangerment, and do find sufficient cause to place the children in protective custody, then thank goodness myself and others involved in this thread had the guts to do something instead of just watch from the sidelines. What if our actions result in the prevention of a child's death? Will we be justified then? What if we read in the paper tommorow about Raven falling to her death while doing one of these solos? Should we have done something when we could? I'm not going to wait until one of them dies to do something. My point is, by referring this family to CPS, I have by no means garunteed that the family will be broken up. All I have done is to alert an agency whose job it is to FIND OUT FOR SURE. What is wrong with finding out for sure? If there's no smoke, there's no fire. One more time for clarification- If there's no smoke, there's no fire. I do not know for sure; I have merely stumbled upon suspicious evidence (and photos with descriptions are reasonable sources of suspicion) and passed that evidence along. Regardless of how big an asshole you think I am by doing this, it is actually my job. As a paramedic, I am required by law to report suspected cases of child abuse, neglect, and endangerment. Its not my passion, I don't go on witch hunts to try and split up families, its not a hobby of mine-IT'S MY JOB! If I treat a child with burns that look like they were done with the butt of a cigarette, I make a report of it. If I find suspicious bruising on a child, I report it. If I find that a parent has been deliberately placing their child in a recklessly dangerous situation-including things as simple as not requiring their child to wear a seat belt while driving or life-jacket while boating, I am BOUND BY LAW TO REPORT IT! I don't physically break up the family, I simply pass along pertinant information. If there is no reason to remove the children into protective custody, then they will not be removed. Trust that the professionals who work for CPS will do their job and ascertain this for themselves.
You are assuming that folks at the CPS are the best to judge whether is family situation if appropriate. The problem with our system is that folks get in the "loop" and it can be difficult to get back out. Even if nothing was done wrong in the first place. A friend of mine ended up in jail for a short time because he was mistaken for another person. After dealing with the situation, you quickly realize that the "system" is a slow moving process that does not often work in your favor and certainly doesn't really care if you are innocent. often times the prosecuting officer is more concerned with getting their name in the paper.
Make sure you know your facts before crying wolf, because once in the system. the person you are accusing often will have to prove their innocence instead of you proving their guilt. My experiences with jury's supports this feeling. People judge situations based on their past experiences and personal biases not necessarily on the facts at hand. This thread proves the point.
You asked if a picture of parents doing coke with their kids be enough to turn them in. ... The answer would be NO. The picture could be doctered, placed on the internet by another person. MAKE sure You have proof before you accuse someone of wrong doing. A vistit from the Law tends to stay with someone for a long time and can most assuradly ruin any chance they have of a normal life.
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amber
May 19, 2005, 7:52 PM
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okay, i havent read the whole damn thread, but from what i read blonde girl and bonger have both made excellent points. though, killclimbz sums it up best -
In reply to: I have to say that this thread has become more about us sticking our collective "noses" in some one else's business. The kid is defnitely doing a 4th class scramble and this guy is definitely a poser at best.
now, my .02 .. ;)
from what i can infer, this is most likely just a good ol fashioned, pachouli-wearin, no-meat-eatin, hemp-lovin, hippie-style california family. nbd there.
though, the hippiesque part of me wants to point out the moral injustice by sensationalizing a kid scrambling on some 4th class choss, or crumbly/rotten rock for material gain.
i've taken my share of risks, ignored my share of sound advice, endangered my own life, and not really known when to be scared of what. when i read the bit about raven not being scared, i remembered a terrible fall on my first 'real' aid climb. i wasnt too scared either, until i was dangling from a piece of rope that i couldnt hold onto, 500' off the deck. reality check.
then, i realized loud and clear why an old boyfriend had jumped my shit about my willingness to risk life and limb to feel alive. before shit hit the fan, i took his advice the wrong way and didnt appreciate his efforts to try and talk some sense through this thick skull of mine. since then, well, i have eaten my shit-sandwich and have backed off of adventure stuff until i feel more confident in assessing/dealing with the risks. i've also found more simple ways of rejoicing life. imho, sitting by a creek and meditating brings you just as close to that sense of spirituality - but i digress.
storm - think about our perspective. we are a community of people who thrive on risks. we study them in hopes to understand them so that we can protect ourselves from them as much as possible. we have lost our brethren to them.
in fact, i dont think it's possible to find a group who values nature or adventure moreso than the folks that post to this site. we're also egomaniacs and self-righteous at times - and we lose our tempers when we see someone doing something unnecessarily dangerous because we deeply understand how a single, small step at the wrong moment in time can cost a life.
from what has been posted, you have taken the simple task of scrambling around rock fields and altered camera angles to sensationalize something that you feel was completely safe for your child. sure, marketing folk play with camera angles all the time, just the way that they teach kids that marshmallows are a "fat free food" - is that really the kind of person who you are? is that the foundation that you want for your film, something which you proclaim is highlighting your lifestyle, the core of your being? sensationalizing, dramatizing, making things seem to be something that they're not?
we react harshly because, perhaps without intent, you are exploiting our lifestyle and arguably your daughter for personal gain, to make money off of a film, which, from what you've told us so far, isnt really about the good stuff, but is reconstituted with fillers and empty carbs, or tricky camera angles and half-hearted disclaimers, as the case may be.
[edited for spelling because i was lazy and didnt use preview]
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micahmcguire
May 19, 2005, 7:56 PM
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For now, Chugiak Volunteer Fire Department. I will hopefully begin at Anchorage Fire Department when they do their next round of tests.
Here are the statutes as they apply to Alaska Law
AS 47.17.020. Persons Required to Report.
(a) The following persons who, in the performance of their occupational duties, or with respect to (8) of this subsection, in the performance of their appointed duties, have reasonable cause to suspect that a child has suffered harm as a result of child abuse or neglect shall immediately report the harm to the nearest office of the department:
(1) practitioners of the healing arts; HEY-THAT'S ME!!!
(2) school teachers and school administrative staff members of public and private schools;
(3) peace officers and officers of the Department of Corrections;
(4) administrative officers of institutions;
(5) child care providers;
(6) paid employees of domestic violence and sexual assault programs, and crisis intervention and prevention programs as defined in AS 18.66.990;
(7) paid employees of an organization that provides counseling or treatment to individuals seeking to control their use of drugs or alcohol;
(8) members of a child fatality review team established under AS 12.65.015(e) or 12.65.120 or the multidisciplinary child protection team created under AS 47.14.300
etc.....
AK statute regarding protective injunctions:
AS 47.17.069. Protective Injunctions.
(a) A court may enjoin or limit a person from contact with a child if the attorney general establishes by a preponderance of the evidence that the person
(1) has sexually abused a child;
(2) has physically abused a child; or
(3) has engaged in conduct that constitutes a clear and present danger to the mental, emotional, or physical welfare of a child. HEY-THAT'S THEM!!!
(b) This section does not limit the authority of the attorney general or the court to act to protect a child.
happy dingus?:
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corpse
May 19, 2005, 7:57 PM
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In reply to: Bungee jumping is a rite of passage?
If the tower is made of sticks, I guess it is :)
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dingus
May 19, 2005, 8:00 PM
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In reply to: For now, Chugiak Volunteer Fire Department. happy dingus?:
Thanks Barney Fife. If I was the kind of dick to go after someone in the world for the incredibly stupid shit they post online, I would seek them out.
DMT
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alpinerock
May 19, 2005, 8:12 PM
Post #206 of 315
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In reply to: We never intended to put this out to the climbing community as a serious climb. One of our raw-vegan visitors who must also be a climber did that. Regarding camera angles check out the one on the front page of this very site today http://www.rockclimbing.com where the camera is actually upside down! It is not uncommon to take pictures at an angle especially during climbs. I think that people here are over-reacting because they don't realize that this is a diet website about a flim and not a climbing website about freestyling. Peace, Jinjee
Spoken like a true student of the master... i love taking pictures upside down! especially of freestyling!
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davidji
May 19, 2005, 8:16 PM
Post #207 of 315
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In reply to: (3) has engaged in conduct that constitutes a clear and present danger to the mental, emotional, or physical welfare of a child. HEY-THAT'S THEM!!!
How about a 2-second following distance? HEY-THAT'S EVEN MORE DANGEROUS, AND IT'S PROBABLY STILL MOST OF US.
People die out there on the roads. Shouldn't we start saving lives by siezing kids when parents don't drive safely? We could have an entire generation raised in group homes--and of course foster care, since foster parents often don't need to meet the same standards as the home the child was siezed from.
I think your judgement is flawed in applying the line I quoted to Storm's situation. All it takes is an overly-agressive case-worker with similarly flawed judgement, and you guys could really screw up someone's family.
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xclimber
May 19, 2005, 8:22 PM
Post #208 of 315
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In reply to: Today (May 16, 2004) an organization in Southern California posted some chilling photos. See: http://www.thegardendiet.com/images/climb The narrative with the photos describes the situation. They depict a young woman free-soloing a 70-foot near vertical rock wall, with her daughter, aged 10 or less, free soloing with her. The rock looks rotten and the route looks about 5.5 or so. The mom and little girl were encouraged to free-solo by the father/husband, a man named "storm" who leads seminars and retreats about raw food vegan diets. He apparently has been climbing for 25 years. He also has apparently positioned himself as something of a guru, passing this type of climb off as a mystical/spiritual event. To my mind, this is an outrageous example of child endangerment.
Maybe all climbing is too dangerous and it should be illegal... Where do you draw the line?
Ever heard of Cicada Jenerik? Should we arrest her parents? God Forbid.
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ctclimbz
May 19, 2005, 8:35 PM
Post #209 of 315
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Bungee jumping is a rite of passage? dude, trust me, those guys ain't bungee jumping. It's a piece of vine.
"From April to June land diving takes place on southern Pentecost Island. Men dive off bush timber platforms with flexible vines tied to their ankles in this religious and fertility rite. The divers' hair scrapes the earth at high speed to fertilise it and ensure a successful yam harvest. The government was compelled to cancel all land diving for a year in 1995 to allow the ceremony's cultural worth to be re-established after it had become swamped by tourists." - from Lonelyplanet.com
Think you're a badass? How about jumping off of a rickety tower with a flimsy vine, approximately the right length to keep you off the ground, tied to your ankles. Great pic BVB
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jt512
May 19, 2005, 8:44 PM
Post #210 of 315
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I thought I was reading a post by "Ambler" until I got to this line:
In reply to: then, i realized loud and clear why an old boyfriend...
In reply to: ...from what has been posted, you have taken the simple task of scrambling around rock fields and altered camera angles to sensationalize something that you feel was completely safe for your child. sure, marketing folk play with camera angles all the time, just the way that they teach kids that marshmallows are a "fat free food" - is that really the kind of person who you are? is that the foundation that you want for your film, something which you proclaim is highlighting your lifestyle, the core of your being? sensationalizing, dramatizing, making things seem to be something that they're not?
The father is a megalomaniac and a hypocrite; a self-ordained guru of nutrition, medicine, rock climbing, and Truth. But when it comes right down to it, he'll exploit his own loved ones to make a buck, and won't hesitate to lie about their accomplishments in the process. Coercing a child into free soloing chossy 4th or 5th class terrain is child endangerment (I was a sworn mandatory reporter in a previous job). When I saw the original pictures, my initial reaction was to contact a friend of mine who is both a rock climber and a well-known prosecuting attorney for CPS in a nearby county. In all likelihood, if she had deemed that action was warranted, she would have gotten Ventura Co. CPS to act. In the end, I didn't contact my friend because I realized that the angle of the climb was not honestly depicted, that it was unclear whether the children were actually being endangered or whether the father was just a lying windbag, and my mistrust of the judgment of CPS won out over my mistrust of the father, albeit by a hair.
-Jay
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pmyche
May 19, 2005, 9:41 PM
Post #211 of 315
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Sounds like a bunch of folks got trolled by a wannabe climber who pulled the oldest (and most cliche) climbing photo trick of all time.
"Regarding camera angles check out the one on the front page of this very site today http://www.rockclimbing.com where the camera is actually upside down! It is not uncommon to take pictures at an angle especially during climbs."
With no way to know what photo is being referenced above, I'll state: When one is viewing straight down, which way is "up?" In that case, "up" has no relationship to the framing of the photo--it's behind the photographer, so there's no way to accurately portray in that situation. The more horizontally (and more in line with the climbing surface) the subject is shot, the less this phenomenon occurs (read: the more one can tilt the camera to increase the apparent steepness of the climb).
In the case of the shots in question, it's paaainfully obvious (to me and some others) that this wanker tried to make it look steeper than it is. Though I haven't read every post here or the "article" in question, it seems this dood is overflowing with hyperbole. Good job generating publicity--you got me too!
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slcliffdiver
May 19, 2005, 9:41 PM
Post #212 of 315
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People had wildly differnt perspectives on how much danger the kids where in and fairly wildly different perspectives on how damaging calling cps would be. What I don't see is a lack of heart or concern on either side. I'll take people with heart every day over people who don't give a damn. I think it's easier to gain wisdom than heart.
I think alot of the anomosity and ill wishes between posters is somewhat misdirected.
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nedsurf
May 19, 2005, 9:46 PM
Post #213 of 315
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I've lived in Cali. for extended periods twice in my life. It is these type of people that eventually erode my love for the west coast and make me run back to the clogged cities of the north east where everyone hates each other.
I'm pretty sure that he is probably not a dedicated climber on this site, so I am not writing to anyone who falls for this crap. I wonder if this "guru" :roll: will start a cult. Cool-aid anyone. When will those california flower children learn to be skeptical of those purporting to know "the way"...sigh.
Well, off to take a subway seat from a cripple. I'm glad that east coast people know "the way".
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amber
May 19, 2005, 10:10 PM
Post #214 of 315
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In reply to:
I thought I was reading a post by "Ambler" until I got to this line:
In reply to: then, i realized loud and clear why an old boyfriend...
In reply to: The father is a megalomaniac and a hypocrite; a self-ordained guru of nutrition, medicine, rock climbing, and Truth. But ..
pfft, sounds like a regular ol' rc.com drama queen to me, but your words are much fancier.
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pmyche
May 19, 2005, 10:14 PM
Post #215 of 315
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Nedsurf...there are kooks of all description wherever you go, be it city, country, NE, SW. Keep your bullshit filter on full blast at all times, and enjoy the good eveywhere. Cheers...
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erisspirit
May 19, 2005, 10:30 PM
Post #216 of 315
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In reply to: I wonder if this "guru" :roll: will start a cult. Cool-aid anyone. When will those california flower children learn to be skeptical of those purporting to know "the way"...sigh. Well, off to take a subway seat from a cripple. I'm glad that east coast people know "the way".
The mass suicide Kool Aid cult (THE PEOPLE'S TEMPLE,
LED BY JAMES WARREN (JIM) JONES) was not Californian. :roll: they started in Indianapolis and later MOVED to California so uhhh don't blame Cali hippies on that one
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kixrox
May 19, 2005, 11:14 PM
Post #217 of 315
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the admins and sponsors of this site shoud be appalled that a thread here has resulted in the harrassment of an innocent loving family based upon skewed and convenient interpretations of postings on their site.
You are not a community.
this place is disgusting.
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bvb
May 19, 2005, 11:20 PM
Post #218 of 315
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In reply to: You are not a community. this place is disgusting. |
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pru
May 19, 2005, 11:30 PM
Post #219 of 315
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In reply to: the admins and sponsors of this site shoud be appalled that a thread here has resulted in the harrassment of an innocent loving family based upon skewed and convenient interpretations of postings on their site. You are not a community. this place is disgusting.
You people should be ashamed of your worthless selves.
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sa
May 20, 2005, 12:06 AM
Post #220 of 315
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I guess I'm what you folks would call a lurker. I've been on the site for less than a year but don't post much because, unless I'm looking for specific information, it's generally not worth my time.
Dingus, I have read your posts before. Sometimes I agree, sometimes not. This time, however, you have hit the nail square on the head. I, too, hope the people who are trying to destroy this family get what they deserve.
I am going home to take a shower, but I fear it will take a while to wash the stink of rc.com off of my hands.
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jv
May 20, 2005, 12:35 AM
Post #221 of 315
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In reply to: The father is a megalomaniac and a hypocrite; a self-ordained guru of nutrition, medicine, rock climbing, and Truth. But when it comes right down to it, he'll exploit his own loved ones to make a buck, and won't hesitate to lie about their accomplishments in the process. Coercing a child into free soloing chossy 4th or 5th class terrain is child endangerment (I was a sworn mandatory reporter in a previous job). When I saw the original pictures, my initial reaction was to contact a friend of mine who is both a rock climber and a well-known prosecuting attorney for CPS in a nearby county. In all likelihood, if she had deemed that action was warranted, she would have gotten Ventura Co. CPS to act. In the end, I didn't contact my friend because I realized that the angle of the climb was not honestly depicted, that it was unclear whether the children were actually being endangered or whether the father was just a lying windbag, and my mistrust of the judgment of CPS won out over my mistrust of the father, albeit by a hair. -Jay
Subjective
I agree with Jay's assessment, though I was not tempted to contact anyone. I think the first and last pictures, the only ones from the side, were deliberately tipped to make the angle look steeper purely to stroke dad's ego.
Objective
It occurred to me that from a legal standpoint, if the child falls and dies, the father, and perhaps both parents, could be prosecuted for negligent homicide/involuntary manslaughter. The pictures and text from the website would come in as evidence, blown up and displayed prominently for the jury to ponder. Whereas if she died while roped up, no criminal charges.
JV
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cintune
May 20, 2005, 1:00 AM
Post #222 of 315
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Good God, people. If the girl and her mom were sent ropeless up Half Dome, I'd be all for an intervention, but they weren't. The fact that "Storm" decided to tweak the reality by tilting his pics has certainly come round to bite him in the ass; it outs him as a poser, but not an imminent threat to his child. Getting the State involved positively reeks. The State has (or should have) its hands full with real cases of abuse. This incident, while perhaps not exactly commendable parenting, boils down to nothing more than a witch hunt. The overprotective meddlers on this site are skirting liability for defamation of character, in my opinion. If they have kids of their own, they should by all means do or not do whatever they think right, but if the original poster had had an ounce of decency and a genuine concern for the kid's well being, he should have contacted the parents directly with his concerns, like a man, and not splashed it all over this forum first in search of some kind of pathetic validation. Who's next?
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erawtica
May 20, 2005, 1:04 AM
Post #223 of 315
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I've met and stayed with Jinjee, Storm and the kids. The one thing I do know is that, life is dangerous. What they did compared to what most of you do with your kids? lmao
I truly wish I had them as parents when I was growing up. I LOVED the wilderness. I LOVED climbing trees, rocks, hills, etc. That's what kids "should" be doing ~ not eating junk food out of a box, dealing with their folk's neurosis', watching t.v. and living on computers and waiting until they are old enough to drive a car because they need some excitement in their lives.
Durng the weekend with the family, I saw Jinjee one month after having her son Adagio. She looked terrific. I met the other three kids all of whom are in great health.
Storm a megalomaniac? Oh my. You know not of what you speak. He was soooo laid back. IF you wanted to learn something new; IF you wanted to do something more, you got it. I will tell you what I saw ~ a loving, caring family who chose to live an alternative lifestyle where, if folk choose, they can see another way to live.
A healthy way to live. One that brings joy, self-esteem, gratitude and love.
Because someone doesn't know the "correct" terminology for something that makes them less-than proficient? Maybe this someone is out "doing" and not just on some board learning all the words to throw around to satisfy an ego.
Call child welfare or whatever they are called now. They'll laugh in your faces.
erawtica
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rgold
May 20, 2005, 1:26 AM
Post #224 of 315
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The question of the tilting of the photos has now been raised multiple times. I wondered about this before posting anything and made my own corrected versions. Since the subject keeps coming up, I decided, I hope not too unwisely, to post what I have. In each case, I have aligned the left edge of the frame with a group of trees. The trees used can no longer be seen in two of the pictures because of the cropping necessitated by the rotation. I have tried to select one or more big trees, not too close to the base. Trees on a hillside may tilt out a little; this would cause the depicted angles of the pictures here to be lower than they are in reality, but I think these results are a reasonable view of the real situation.
The top photograph is the lowest of the three, next highest is the lower left, and highest is the lower right.
Anyone who has read my posts knows that I strongly disapprove of both the coercion of the subjects into this endeavor and the reaction to call the cops.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=54500
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bvb
May 20, 2005, 1:51 AM
Post #225 of 315
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if any of you would like to see a corrected photo, you can see it right now, right here.
http://the-edg.net/rotated.jpg
LMFAO
the sad thing is that anyboby who actually climbs does not need to see a "corrected" photo to calculate the angle of the rock -- the can simply suss it by looking at the angle of dangle in the pics.
and notice how mom ain't even hanging on to anything -- she's pushing away from this 35 degree staircase with her palms.
when you guys get going, it's like lord of the flies around here.
i mean, fuck.
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corpse
May 20, 2005, 2:22 AM
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Well, a fall on that terrain from height, could certainly result in death.. If you tumble backwards and start to roll, it could have some bad effects... However, I know that I would take my kids on such terrain. As for the height I would go, I don't know. But I'm sure that it would be high enough to result in some major injury if we fell.. And it looks like mom is doing a good job of spotting her in that pic... If the girl slipped, it's reasonable to think the mom can help. Given the drama-king that hte dad seems to be, I'm sure he took a picture of the "rough terrain", with the easier climbinger before/after this pic.
I still think we all got bit by the biggest troll in rc.com history though. I think it was all staged to draw more traffic to his site, to support his way. He had (himself), friends, family, whatever, join in on the action. "Thats my story, and I'm stickin to it" hehe
It's the insane people you have to worry about, its the sane ones..
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erawtica
May 20, 2005, 2:35 AM
Post #227 of 315
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In reply to: I still think we all got bit by the biggest troll in rc.com history though. I think it was all staged to draw more traffic to his site, to support his way. He had (himself), friends, family, whatever, join in on the action. "Thats my story, and I'm stickin to it" hehe
Yeah, that's exactly what it is ~ a story you've just made up. You don't even know if Storm was aware of this site until this whole bs started.
erawtica
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rockitjeff
May 20, 2005, 3:03 AM
Post #228 of 315
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What I liked the most about the thread is when BVB wrote Storm
"i am a "famous" climber (lots of climbing and rock and ice magazine covers, free ascents of el cap, blah blah blah ..... in addition to being a name-brand climber, i'm a .. ranger .. yadda yadda "
yep. can't pick up a mag without seeing that guy's grill on the cover. or read his latest free ascent of what? El Nino? ... Lurking Fear? Maybe El Corazon?
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cliffhunger
May 20, 2005, 3:03 AM
Post #229 of 315
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I read the whole thread, phew...
(take a breath, long post again)
First, I'd like to clarify that the climbing community and RC.com are two very different things. The climbing community is mostly tolerant, open-minded and passionnate, with usually a good dose of common sense, things that prevent shit from spewing like it has in this thread.
RC.com is an internet website, arguably the place people looking for "rock climbing" on google end up at, plus a huge set of people who can sum their social skills in two words: internet and chat.
Then, a few actual climbers.
This topic was originally posted by someone who obviously had no idea how poor a means of communication the internet is.
"I have been reminded" says he, well your warning might have been at the cost of a family's well being.
Most of the people posting here view free soloing as dangerous because they absolutely have no idea what it is.
The free-solo debate could rage on and on, point is, people who haven't tried it shoud shut the fuck up, because they can not possibly begin to evaluate what the "risks" are. They aren't better off than non-climbers thinking falling on a roped climb will kill you (and believe me, lots of people do).
Someone who has free soloed should easily imagine that in the case of the photos & story debated here, it is very possible that Raven had zero chance of falling.
Then there are those who still view danger in this story because they have determined Storm to be manipulative, etc, and want to bring the cops on him using an obviously routine scramble as an excuse.
Puh-lease.
Being a self-professed spiritual ignorant, I did meet and read about lots of different questionnable characters (gurus, "enlightened ones", etc etc).
Have some common sense. It ain't the case here, obviously.
I mean, people jump on the guru bandwagon as soon as a cheezy quote about life or hippyesque or non-scientific terminology is used.
Get some proper communication skills and try to meet people instead of interpreting a few words on the internet and passing them through your own fears of being manipulated or corrupted. Strenghten yourself a bit mentally before you point fingers at others who obviously put more effort into it than you have.
Pressure? Coercion? Pfff. I didn't feel any while I was reading their article.
Now. About the article, which is mostly the only piece of information we have.
A point has been brought up by fiend a couple of times about the actual lack of information.
I shall further it with the fact that the common climbing lingo wasn't present, and that part of this family's belief system is shown through the article (which was the point).
There is hardly enough information to judge wether or not the situation was dangerous from ANYONE's point of view, although half the people here laughed at the very notion of danger being displayed there.
The fact that it was written by someone who is not talking about rock climbing and not talking rock climbing language only furthers the misunderstanding: people start to discedit and think that because someone doesn't talk like them, they cannot fathom the concept of safety while climbing, solo or not.
To those people, please realise that you aren't better because you read about climbing in a book and practiced a few times outside to the point that you talk the talk and walk the walk. Pathetic.
To Storm, Jinjee and your wonderful kids:
All of this sums up to one important thing. Using this story to convey information about your way of life didn't work well and could've had serious consequences for your family (and I'm not talking about falling).
It might be a powerful way to show a point in your belief system, but it most likely will be misinterpreted, as this thread has shown.
Even though you know through experience that mental challenges (on the rock or elsewhere) have good outcomes and are understood in a healthy way by the people who have gone through them (because their were under guidance), you have to see that what you will show on the net or on a dvd is very little compared to what the experience acutally is.
The remaining images and words conveyed to the audiance weren't enough to correctly represent the experience for a group of people (climbers) who are the closest to actually having a chance to grasp its true meaning.
You might have to weight in if using such media on your website or DVD will provoke an even worse response from non-climbers, however well presented it may be in the future.
I am glad to see you have put an extended disclaimer on the article, but I fear that it might not be enough, since you can't really convey the information properly on this poor media that is the internet. Don't have overconfidence in the state of the average american's common sense, I think more of them teach their kids how to use guns than teach them how to enjoy a day in the mountains.
That aside, had I had kids of my own, I would certainly take them scrambling, climbing and exploring, and discuss the mental aspects of it with them; I would also offer the few words of advise I can as a seasoned climber about difficult free soloing, and try to instill some common sense into them so they wouldn't make stupid decisions about it.
Like you most probably did.
Keep up the lovin' environment, and only good will come out of it in the end, it's that simple...
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cliffhunger
May 20, 2005, 3:59 AM
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One final thought.
Most of the reaction against your article came from looking at the pictures, and associating the climb to something far more dangerous than it really was.
This came to because the pictures were modified.
I don't think the drama factor is necessary in such a display, and the original footage and pictures might be more than enough to send your message, and avoid a lot of misinterpretation and problems at the same time.
If most people look at the footage and think they could do it too, without any real danger, they might relate even more to what you are trying to say and at the very least, not start panicking about it.
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bvb
May 20, 2005, 4:13 AM
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In reply to: What I liked the most about the thread is when BVB wrote Storm "i am a "famous" climber (lots of climbing and rock and ice magazine covers, free ascents of el cap, blah blah blah ..... in addition to being a name-brand climber, i'm a .. ranger .. yadda yadda " yep. can't pick up a mag without seeing that guy's grill on the cover. or read his latest free ascent of what? El Nino? ... Lurking Fear? Maybe El Corazon?
yeah, that was my favorite part to. i mean, storm is obviously such a badass mofo that i was desperate to impress him.
actually, i was simply trying to impress on him, in terms that he would understand, that i had the history, experience, background, and administrative gravitas to be a very effective advocate for him, should cps try anything odd, and that i was absolutely ready to drive to cali and take up the cause.
and as for you, young squire, i have scored the coveted trifecta of climbing magazine coverage:
--a greg epperson cover shot;
--a john sherman "contents" page feature photo;
--a brian baily two-page spread
so sukit, n00b. bow down, before the one you serve.
http://www.chromewaves.net/...johnnycashFinger.jpg
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zozo
May 20, 2005, 4:24 AM
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Trent Reznor's looking alot like Mr. Cash these days....May he Rest in Peace.
You wired me awake
And hit me with a hand of broken nails
You tied my lead and pulled my chain
To watch my blood begin to boil
But I’m gonna break
I’m gonna break my
I’m gonna break my rusty cage and run
Too cold to start a fire
I’m burning diesel burning dinosaur bones
I’ll take the river down to still water
And ride a pack of dogs
I’m gonna break
I’m gonna break my
I’m gonna break my rusty cage and run
Hits like a phillips head
Into my brain
It’s gonna be too dark
To sleep again
Cutting my teeth on bars
And rusty chains, I’m gonna break my
Rusty cage and run
When the forest burns
Along the road
Like god’s eyes
In my headlights
When the dogs are looking
For their bones
And it’s raining icepicks
On your steel shore
I’m gonna break
I’m gonna break my
I’m gonna break my rusty cage and run
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corpse
May 20, 2005, 2:04 PM
Post #233 of 315
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In reply to: In reply to: I still think we all got bit by the biggest troll in rc.com history though. I think it was all staged to draw more traffic to his site, to support his way. He had (himself), friends, family, whatever, join in on the action. "Thats my story, and I'm stickin to it" hehe Yeah, that's exactly what it is ~ a story you've just made up. You don't even know if Storm was aware of this site until this whole bs started. erawtica
storm did know of this site before the thread started. Go look at it his profile, he was on this site since April 2nd, so he was well aware of this site. To me, that was him doing a little homework.
Now, you and nego or whatever, you guys joined the site in order to create and participate this thread - which even further supports my conspiracy theory :)
20,530 hits so far in this thread - thats a fair amount of exposure. How many of us actually went to his site to see what it was about? I'm sure he got at least 500 hits on his site as a result of rc.com.
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amber
May 20, 2005, 2:35 PM
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/me bows down to bvb
/me refuses to give up meat to become a better climber, or a better person for that matter.
/me refuses to give up processed sugars - my kid would probably become seriously ill if he couldnt toast marshmallows on an open fire when we're camping.
/me agrees with corpse - we kick some serious ass when it comes to conspiracy theories. hey, maybe it's kodos!
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pmyche
May 20, 2005, 3:27 PM
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"if any of you would like to see a corrected photo, you can see it right now, right here.
http://the-edg.net/rotated.jpg
LMFAO..."
LMAO indeed. Why are all the trees now leaning to the right? This is hilarious... More!
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bvb
May 20, 2005, 3:46 PM
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not a problem, pmyche. here you go, courtesy of rgold.
In reply to: The question of the tilting of the photos has now been raised multiple times. I wondered about this before posting anything and made my own corrected versions. Since the subject keeps coming up, I decided, I hope not too unwisely, to post what I have. In each case, I have aligned the left edge of the frame with a group of trees. The trees used can no longer be seen in two of the pictures because of the cropping necessitated by the rotation. I have tried to select one or more big trees, not too close to the base. Trees on a hillside may tilt out a little; this would cause the depicted angles of the pictures here to be lower than they are in reality, but I think these results are a reasonable view of the real situation. The top photograph is the lowest of the three, next highest is the lower left, and highest is the lower right. Anyone who has read my posts knows that I strongly disapprove of both the coercion of the subjects into this endeavor and the reaction to call the cops. http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=54500 |
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mcfoley
May 20, 2005, 4:42 PM
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What a joke...that's like 3rd class.
The camera was rotated so the angle looks steep.
STUPID!!! LAME!!!
Storm is a TOOL!
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pru
May 20, 2005, 4:45 PM
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In reply to: What a joke...that's like 3rd class. The camera was rotated so the angle looks steep. STUPID!!! LAME!!! Storm is a TOOL! |
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pda2540
May 20, 2005, 5:16 PM
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micah - you wrote:
"Here are the statutes as they apply to Alaska Law
AS 47.17.020. Persons Required to Report.
(a) The following persons who, in the performance of their occupational duties, or with respect to (8) of this subsection, in the performance of their appointed duties, have reasonable cause to suspect that a child has suffered harm as a result of child abuse or neglect shall immediately report the harm to the nearest office of the department: "
Noting the phase "in the performance of their occupational duties . . . "
is trolling around on rc.com one of your occupational duties? I doubt firemen are supposed to troll climbing sites on the web as one of their duties. In fact, they could probably be turned in for doing so. Maybe we should call your employer to enquire. Oh wait, thats right, YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A JOB.
So how could this law possibly relate to you? I think it was written for actual professionals doing their actual job. Hopefully, they would have the judgement to know when (and when not) to intervene.
Corpse - you wrote "Well, a fall on that terrain from height, could certainly result in death"
A fall down the staircase in your home could (and many times has) also resulted in death. Can you believe we allow children, CHILDREN to climb them without any professionals around to certify and approve it? Want to start calling the police on everyone with a stairway in their home? Its a pretty long list.
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crimpandgo
May 20, 2005, 5:36 PM
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In reply to: I read the whole thread, phew... (take a breath, long post again) First, I'd like to clarify that the climbing community and RC.com are two very different things. The climbing community is mostly tolerant, open-minded and passionnate, with usually a good dose of common sense, things that prevent s--- from spewing like it has in this thread. RC.com is an internet website, arguably the place people looking for "rock climbing" on google end up at, plus a huge set of people who can sum their social skills in two words: internet and chat. Then, a few actual climbers. This topic was originally posted by someone who obviously had no idea how poor a means of communication the internet is. "I have been reminded" says he, well your warning might have been at the cost of a family's well being. Most of the people posting here view free soloing as dangerous because they absolutely have no idea what it is.
The free-solo debate could rage on and on, point is, people who haven't tried it shoud shut the f--- up, because they can not possibly begin to evaluate what the "risks" are. They aren't better off than non-climbers thinking falling on a roped climb will kill you (and believe me, lots of people do). Someone who has free soloed should easily imagine that in the case of the photos & story debated here, it is very possible that Raven had zero chance of falling. ......... Keep up the lovin' environment, and only good will come out of it in the end, it's that simple...
I haven't free soloed and don't plan to. I can say for sure it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the Soloing is in fact DANGEROUS. All forms of soloing is DANGEROUS. I can say for sure that no article I have read from anyone that does free-soloing has ever said it WASN'T dangerous. And to make a statement that there are climbs that may have ZERO chance of falling,, Well in my opinion you are simply nieve.
If you are going to call others ignorant, then please get your facts straight. SOLOING is DANGEROUS. If you are going to participate, make sure you accept the risks and assure that you are up to the task.
People that don't solo dont think its dangerous because they dont know better. They dont solo because they KNOW it is dangerous and choose not to do it because they dont accept the risk involve.
I personally don't care if you solo, but please don't tell me to shut the F*ck up because I don't solo. I don't have to solo to understand the risks involved. Maybe you should consider what you saying before you open your trap and degrade everyone on this site. You are no better than the folks that are screaming for CPS !
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pmyche
May 20, 2005, 8:28 PM
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Climbing is dangerous.
And you're all gonna die. No matter what kind of scaffolding you use.
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themullet
May 20, 2005, 8:55 PM
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In reply to: Hi everyone, While I appreciate everyone's concern I want to put your mind at ease. I am not some zombie going around doing everything my husband tells me to. .... . I know a lot of the climbers on here are emailing with Storm and getting into heated discussions and some are getting angered and have actually said that they are calling Child Protective Services right away. One thing I can almost assure you is that if my children are taken by CPS and placed in a foster home they will very likely become seriously ill. They have never had sugar, food with chemicals, processed food, packaged food, junk food, sodas, candy, dairy products, or meat of any kind including chicken or fish. Do any of you really think that our children would be better off in a foster home? Peace, Jinjee
The problem as I see it was not only the photos, it was the narrative that went along with them. In that narrative, it was clear that you were indeed a zombie. That is one of the main reasons why I called CPS.
And I think my concerns about your state are only solidified by your statement above. The very first thing you mention in relation to your kids being removed for their safety is the food your kids are going to get while not in your "care" and how it will make them sick. The food? This is insane. If my kids were in threat of being taken away, I would be making arguments about how the separation from thier parents is going to be devasting, that we do love them, okay maybe we made an error in judgement, sorry, anything to not take the kids away. Your first concern is that they are going to eat non-vegan food. Do you see how skewed your world is? This whole thing consumes your life (evidently). It is quite clear that you are a zombie. If anything, maybe this is a wake-up call for you, but I doubt you or your husband will see that.
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ricardol
May 20, 2005, 9:24 PM
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damm ..
.. this is why some people should not be allowed to breed
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themullet
May 20, 2005, 9:43 PM
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interesting that Storm edited Jinjee's dialouge and has removed the refernece to that day being a good day to die
Also interesting is that this image
http://www.thegardendiet.com/images/climb/rmt5.jpg
has not been rotated, 4th class or not, the next move is a big one for a person of such small stature; a fall would have had dire consequences...all in the name of a stupid film that is going nowhere...just watch the trailer at thie site, you'll understand
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elvislegs
May 20, 2005, 10:15 PM
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...
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wingnut
May 20, 2005, 10:35 PM
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:o :D
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themullet
May 20, 2005, 11:06 PM
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Yes; but that is not my thread.
I came here topost since most on this site appear to enjoy debate on this topic and feel prett passionate about the behaviours that were portrayed on the vegan site. Not too much in the way of discourse on my "home site" so I though I would join into the fray over here.
Belive me, I called CPS, pretty sure I was the first one to do so.
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erawtica
May 21, 2005, 12:46 AM
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Wow! Yikes! Aren't you just the MAN now?
[quote="themullet"]In reply to: Belive me, I called CPS, pretty sure I was the first one to do so. |
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themullet
May 21, 2005, 1:02 AM
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not claiming to be anything beyond a concerned person.
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becalm
May 21, 2005, 2:13 AM
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three points:
"fieldmouse" is quoted above as having written something that "themullet" wrote. fieldmouse is, i beleive, somewhat embarassed and critical of the way many rc.com regulars have behaved -- in this thread, and in their personal lives regarding this family.
"themullet" is a regular at b.com, with all that this fact implies, and has suddenly decided to register and post here. draw your own conclusions on this.
although i've been lurking on this topic, it has become extraordinarily clear that this site is dominated by people who have no tolerence for cultural diversity. as someone posted earlier -- this really has been a "lord of the flies" environment. you do not understand their lifestyle, so you choose to attack it. please, just climb into your SUV's and head for the local mexican resturant, have a few margaritas, and calm down.
the attack on this family, their counter-culture values and lifestyle, and the silly little "solo" climb, is repugnant. i've been sickened by much of this. micahmaguire, "themullet" aka "plasticmullet", "jt512" (oo, you climb 5,12 and just HAVE to let us know) -- you should all be ashamed of yourselves. you must lead small and tiny lives, that you would choose to take the actions you have.
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dingus
May 21, 2005, 2:48 AM
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In reply to: -- this really has been a "lord of the flies" environment.
I have to jump in at this point as this is the 2nd reference... its 'Lord of Flies' not Lord of THE flies.
Other than that, rock and roll brother!
DMT
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erawtica
May 21, 2005, 3:00 AM
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Amazon is selling "Lord of THE Flies".
In reply to: In reply to: -- this really has been a "lord of the flies" environment. I have to jump in at this point as this is the 2nd reference... its 'Lord of Flies' not Lord of THE flies. Other than that, rock and roll brother! DMT |
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jt512
May 21, 2005, 3:55 AM
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In reply to: "jt512" (oo, you climb 5,12 and just HAVE to let us know)
*chuckle* Personally, I don't think my redpoint level is anything to brag about, but it's always interesting to see who is insecure enough about their own climbing level to suggest that my username is a form of bragging.
-Jay
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becalm
May 21, 2005, 4:08 AM
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nice try, jt5.12. but the old redirection ploy is quite transparent and passe.
how many of us do you think you are fooling?
if you think i'm insecure about my "redpoint level", you are a bit off base.
more to the point, i'm wondering where you come off harassing these people. i take it you are not a vegan.
and i certainly do wonder about your choice of username. perhaps i;ll follow your lead and rename myself "becalm5.11dnohangdogginggearprotectedtrad", or words to that effect.
so back to the issue at hand...exactly what was it that compelled you to harass these innocents?
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jt512
May 21, 2005, 4:12 AM
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In reply to: how many of us do you think you are fooling?
You, for one. You're an idiot.
In reply to: more to the point, i'm wondering where you come off harassing these people.
Please show us exactly where I have harrassed Storm et al.
In reply to: i take it you are not a vegan.
You're right, I'm not. Now, please explain what that has to do with anything.
In reply to: "becalm5.11dnohangdogginggearprotectedtrad", or words to that effect.
Like I said. Insecure.
In reply to: so back to the issue at hand...exactly what was it that compelled you to harass these innocents?
Again, where have I harrassed anyone?
-Jay
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becalm
May 21, 2005, 4:21 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: how many of us do you think you are fooling? You, for one. You're an idiot. In reply to: more to the point, i'm wondering where you come off harassing these people. Please show us exactly where I have harrassed Storm et al. In reply to: i take it you are not a vegan. You're right, I'm not. Now, please explain what that has to do with anything. In reply to: "becalm5.11dnohangdogginggearprotectedtrad", or words to that effect. Like I said. Insecure. In reply to: so back to the issue at hand...exactly what was it that compelled you to harass these innocents? Again, where have I harrassed anyone? -Jay (aka jt FIVE TWELVE) gee whiz!!
you have underscored all my points far better than i could have dreamed of doing.
resolved. you truly are as self-assured in your worldview, and as judgemental of other people, as your posts in this thread have indicated.
glass houses, mr. 5.12, glass houses.
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jt512
May 21, 2005, 4:37 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: how many of us do you think you are fooling? You, for one. You're an idiot. In reply to: more to the point, i'm wondering where you come off harassing these people. Please show us exactly where I have harrassed Storm et al. In reply to: i take it you are not a vegan. You're right, I'm not. Now, please explain what that has to do with anything. In reply to: "becalm5.11dnohangdogginggearprotectedtrad", or words to that effect. Like I said. Insecure. In reply to: so back to the issue at hand...exactly what was it that compelled you to harass these innocents? Again, where have I harrassed anyone? -Jay (aka jt FIVE TWELVE) gee whiz!! you have underscored all my points far better than i could have dreamed of doing. resolved. you truly are as self-assured in your worldview, and as judgemental of other people, as your posts in this thread have indicated. glass houses, mr. 5.12, glass houses.
Becalm, you have evaded every question I have posed to you. First, you accused me of harassing Storm et al, but when challenged to point out where I harassed them, you failed to respond. I ask you again to show us where I have done that. If you cannot do so, we must conclude that your accusation was baseless.
Secondly, I asked you what in the hell my personal diet style had to do with anything relevant to this thread. Specifically, what is the logic underlying this apparent nonsequitur: "i'm wondering where you come off harassing these people. i take it you are not a vegan." I now ask you for the second time to explain what your second sentence has to do with your first. If you cannot explain the connection, we will be forced to conclude that there is none, and that they are essentially random sentences posted by someone incapable of clear thinking; that is, an idiot.
-Jay
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curt
May 21, 2005, 5:14 AM
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1) What are all of you b.com scum sucking bottom-feeders doing over here? Is your site down?
2) To rockitjeff, BVB is the real deal.
3) If you have to complain about this retarded story to someone, forget about CPS. Call Rumsfeld, the CIA, FBI and Homeland Security--if you want to get any attention. Protecting children through social services is sooooo passe.
Curt
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pru
May 21, 2005, 2:25 PM
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In reply to: 1) What are all of you b.com scum sucking bottom-feeders doing over here? Is your site down? |
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themullet
May 21, 2005, 3:55 PM
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In reply to: three points: "themullet" is a regular at b.com, with all that this fact implies, and has suddenly decided to register and post here. So what, I reponded that his assertion was indeed valid. My on-line B.COM personality has no bearing either on this topic, how I will interact with the RC.COM community now that I have discovered this forum, or how I feel in real-life. I have a very long history at B.COM that eventually lead to the plasticmullet, you not being part of that history or not knowing the avenues the plasticmullet persona traverssed is obvious. But it has no bearing on anything. you do not understand their lifestyle, so you choose to attack it. please, just climb into your SUV's and head for the local mexican resturant, have a few margaritas, and calm down. Talk about passee. It is not about lifestyle, It's about recognizing a potentially dangerous situation involving kids and informing authorities who are specialists in ascertaining the threat, that's it. It is a responsibility as an adult to inform authroities when one encounters a situation which may be harmful to children. Sitting back and doing nothing is inexcusable and/or the decision of a immature dolt.
With respect to attacking lifestyle, it appears that you are the one doing so by suggesting us well-to-do boulders and climbers ought to opt for jumping into our comfortable lives and let things roll. That I am well-off and happy participating in the American lifestyle has zero bearing on this situation, nor does the fact that the family in question is Vegan. It is those who do not understand the situation here that are getting cuaght up in lifestyle. i've been sickened by much of this. micahmaguire, "themullet" aka "plasticmullet", "jt512" (oo, you climb 5,12 and just HAVE to let us know) -- you should all be ashamed of yourselves. you must lead small and tiny lives, that you would choose to take the actions you have. My actions were meant to protect innocent children. You are the one whi should be ashamed, by standing back and doing nothing but scolding those of us who care enough to at least get this situation looked into by proper authorities. We must have made some sense to Storm, he deleted the refernce to today being a good day to die; even he understands the scenario described by his wife was one of true dire and extreme danger to his kids. At a minimum, it deserves a look into. It appears I lead a life much fuller than your's in that I can extend my love for people beyond the realm of myslef, something you seem to be unable to accomplish. |
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dingus
May 21, 2005, 4:22 PM
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In reply to: My actions were meant to protect innocent children. You are the one whi should be ashamed, by standing back and doing nothing but scolding those of us who care enough to at least get this situation looked into by proper authorities.
Maybe so, maybe not. Perhaps your actions were meant to make you feel better, feel proactive, and had little or nothing to do with children you don't and never will know.
But then again, maybe your motives were pure (if misguided).
Maybe this Storm dude endangered his kids needlessly. Maybe he didn't.
The truth is not discernable over the internet, if it is discernable at all.
But assuming that CPS are the 'proper' authorities to remedy this situation is a stretch. You and others put faith in a system that is often undeserving of it.
Maybe a scolding was exactly the thing Storm needed to hear. He certainly got an ear full, and if reports such as yours are to be believed, they had an impact. Perhaps mission accomplished.
All over some doctored climbing pics and accompanying self-aggrandizing writing. Whatever.
DMT
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cintune
May 21, 2005, 4:32 PM
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"Come out and fight! It is a good day to die!... Thank you for making me a human being. Thank you for helping me to become a warrior. Thank you for my victories and for my defeats. Thank you for my vision and the blindness in which I saw further... You make all things and direct them in their ways, oh Grandfather, and now you have decided the human beings will soon walk a road... that leads nowhere."
- Little Big Man
So much for originality. Great movie, though.
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rockitjeff
May 21, 2005, 6:12 PM
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yea........ the "this is a good day to die" is the funniest part of the whole farce..... let's see-- how will i die scrambling up 3rd class dirt? maybe rattlesnake bite... .
and yea curt. i know bobby V B is 'da man. i am an ol timey so cal..
just could not resist the jibe..he DID leave that one wide open (i was waiting for Kalcario to chime in
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bvb
May 22, 2005, 1:01 AM
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yeah, rockitjeff. i been expecting kalcario to burst through the doors any second. where the fuck is that tool? i need some new bait to troll with, i guess.
i mean, fuck.
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micahmcguire
May 22, 2005, 7:36 PM
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The topic as it applies to the Talifero family has been beaten to death, and I won't waste any more of your or my time explaining why I disapprove of their actions. However, I would like to address the alarming disrespect that some individuals are displaying towards volunteer prehospital care professionals.
Chugiak Volunteer Fire Department, like so many similar organizations around the country, are not made up of Barney Fife wannabe's with no real professional experience (thanks Dingus-you asshole). We are all fully trained, fully licensed, city-funded, EMTs, paramedics, and even a couple of emergency physicians who volunteer to extend the city of Anchorage's fire and EMS coverage to a more remote suburb of the city. We do this out of the goodness of our hearts, concern for our own neighborhoods, or even because we love the work! We are not just a bunch of idiot hillbillies who think we know something about first aid.
So comments like this one:
pda2540 "Oh wait, thats right, YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A JOB....
I think it was written for actual professionals doing their actual job."
are awfully short-sighted, and in fact quite rude. The only difference between the volunteers and the paid EMS workers is a pay check...and in some cases a whole hell of a lot of nobility. Remember that many of the EMS workers who service remote areas-including many climbing areas-are volunteers. Remember that a very large portion of the search and rescue organizations in this country, especially more remote places like Alaska for example, are comprised mostly if not solely by volunteers. So if you ever break your leg way out in the boonies, fall off a mountain, or need help or rescue by some other means, its likely you'll be thanking your lucky stars that there are people who are selfless and dedicated enough to volunteer large chunks of their time and effort to helping thankless assholes like yourselves.
Bashing someone for being a volunteer is really, really low.
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dingus
May 22, 2005, 9:30 PM
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In reply to: http://www.mayberry.com/interactive/floras/13a.jpgnip-it-in-the-bud-micahmcguire"]Chugiak Volunteer Fire Department, like so many similar organizations around the country, are not made up of Barney Fife wannabe's with no real professional experience (thanks Dingus-you asshole).
Actually I wasn't referring to your coworker volunteers, I'm sure they are stand up guys and gals. I was referring to Barney's propensity for sticking his bumbling nose in other people's business and then quoting volumes of regulations when challenged... in other words; you.
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/...arneyfife-bullet.jpg
But I hear you Barney, about those volunteer staffings. And quite clearly, sticking your nose in the business of a family 2000 miles away is your sworn duty.
http://www.mayberry.com/...ractive/floras/1.jpg
In reply to: Andy, I think he's one them thar Californicaters! It's our sworn duty, SWORN DUTY ANDY, to NIP-IT, IN-THE BUD!
Hahahahahahahahahahahhahaha!
DMT
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micahmcguire
May 22, 2005, 9:41 PM
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...a very mature response from a very mature individual no doubt.
thanks dingus, you really put me in my place. I'm glad you can make yourself feel superior by taking childish stabs at the efforts of others. Why don't you go read your post a few times and masturbate to your own sense of self-worth. Granted, you are labeling and criticizing me, a fellow 2000 miles away whom you know next to nothing about, for criticizing the well-revealed actions of other people 2000 miles away.
is the pot calling the kettle black? I think so.
Why is it, do you think, that you feel so compelled to insult? Does belittling people fullfill some deep-seated need to feed a sense self-idolization? I never spoke ill of your professional life, and I would ask that you grant me the same courtesy. Given that you have no idea how good or bad an EMS worker I am, and have never even met me, I feel your comments are absolutely baseless and really only serve to make you and your opinion all the more childish in my eyes.
All in all, you have no clue what kind of person I am, nor what level of dedication and professionalism I maintain in my work. This discussion has transcended way beyond the original issue of whether the Talifero family is being reckless or not. This has now become a (very) personal attack from one individual against another for reasons that have very little to do with the wellbeing of the said family. Why not just be civil and let the matter rest?
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rgold
May 22, 2005, 10:38 PM
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When the OP said a scolding was needed, he probably didn't anticipate that the result would be everyone scolding everyone about everything.
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bvb
May 22, 2005, 11:20 PM
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In reply to: When the OP said a scolding was needed, he probably didn't anticipate that the result would be everyone scolding everyone about everything.
werd, rg. good times.
i'd especially like to thank this barney for for some of the best toolery i've seen on the net in quite some time:
http://chugachpics.tripod.com/family/wed71.JPG
but, where's opie??
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micahmcguire
May 23, 2005, 12:13 AM
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yaaaawn. Is that the best you guys have got?
:roll:
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bvb
May 23, 2005, 2:32 AM
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In reply to: yaaaawn. Is that the best you guys have got? :roll:
well, yeah, it is. wildly creative humor and clever repartee and snappy retorts are pretty tough sledding when you're a burnt-out old alki living out of a bottle.
macallan 18 at the moment, btw. if you're going to swim in demon liquor, might as well make it the good stuff.
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valeberga
May 23, 2005, 3:16 AM
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I'm sure this has been said but since I don't have the time to read 20 pages of posts, don't tilt the photos, jackazz!.
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micahmcguire
May 23, 2005, 4:06 PM
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Abandoning the more reasonable methods of logistics and fact in lew of trading petty insults is a real tell-tale sign of the futility of your original position. As the bard says-if you've failed with your wits, start in with your fists.
Have a nice day gentlemen. I'm sure you feel mighty big.
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bvb
May 23, 2005, 4:44 PM
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In reply to: Abandoning the more reasonable methods of logistics and fact in lew of trading petty insults is a real tell-tale sign of the futility of your original position.
In reply to: bvb, I understand that you think you are a god among men. unfortunately, you are not. go drown yourself in a bottle my friend. Stupid-head booger-face. |
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sinshan
May 23, 2005, 5:12 PM
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I think maybe you all should just go get a room already :)
t.
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pheenixx
May 23, 2005, 5:26 PM
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In reply to: I think maybe you all should just go get a room already :) t.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha :lol: :lol: :lol:
Went climbing this weekend...- funny to see this pistol-whipping-pecker-pissing match still going on. It's been amusinging still entertaining even after the 15th page. ** Thanks to curt - bvb - dingus (funny barney stuff). **
jt512 ~ end game was well taken on def: idiot. (amazing how simple communication escapes most people)
Love you guys... :lol: Piss-on...!
In reply to: ...As the bard says-if you've failed with your wits, start in with your fists....
I thought the quote was ..."If you've failed with your wits, then start with your tits.... :lol:
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bvb
May 23, 2005, 7:37 PM
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In reply to: I think maybe you all should just go get a room already.
ok, but only if you're buyin', barney's wife makes it a threesome, :wink: and we get to ride there on the short bus.
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micahmcguire
May 23, 2005, 8:07 PM
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wow, of all the lines to cross, you had to cross that one.
I'll see you in hell my friend,
good day
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gunksgoer
May 23, 2005, 8:12 PM
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I cant believe theres 19 pages of this drivel...
Why doesnt someone just start an rc.com circle-jerk forum?
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cintune
May 23, 2005, 8:20 PM
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Hey Micah, you're being mocked because you're self-righteous, and if you keep on being self-righteous, you'll keep on getting mocked. A lot of people agree with your stance on the original issue of this post, and a lot of people don't. Nothing much more you can do about that, but you could decide to stop being such an easy target. Lighten up or walk away, but you really can't win from the position you've gotten yourself into. Just some impartial advice. Live to fight another day, dude.
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slablizard
May 23, 2005, 9:47 PM
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You must be sick.
Or a criminal.
Or both.
What and who made you think you have the right to even think about deciding who has the right to raise kids or not? WHO??
If Storm did what he did with his daughter BE VERY SURE that he knew what he was doing, that's his daughter there, do you think he cares about her or not? And her mom's was right beside her. You know what? That girl will be able to keep her head cool in a scary or dangerous situation, and that is a very good thing, despite the risk she ( MIGHT BE ) exposed climbing that 4th class ramp, that she probably did a zillion times roped.
"Raising children should not be a right, it should be a privilege" Sure, and who would decide whoi has this privilege? You?
Youwant to do something? GO down in the streets, in a crack house and start saving people that are really in danger, but noooo it's a lot easier to be another keyborad warrior! What a dickhead.
You know, you made me realize that one should be more careful sharing stories here, this place is a nest of dickheads well hidden bethween the good people, anmd in this nation the dickheads like you are far too much valued to be harmless.
Have a nice day.
I can't believe this.
"I've just referred Storm and Jinjee to the Child Protective Services office in their area. I hope they lose their children to the state."
Unreal. I hope I never meet you dude while I boulder at Diablo with my kids. And no we don't use a rope either.
In reply to: I've just referred Storm and Jinjee to the Child Protective Services office in their area. I hope they lose their children to the state. It would certainly be the best thing for them. How can they even call themselves "parents" when they force their children to risk their lives in pursuit of their father's sport? Raising children should not be a right, it should be a privilege. I hope they lose that privilege. |
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pheenixx
May 23, 2005, 9:55 PM
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In reply to: I'll see you in hell my friend...
wow, I guess that proclaimes that you'll be there... 8^) :D
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lidosis
May 23, 2005, 10:19 PM
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I noticed the trees to immediatly and began durning by laptop sideways and stuff to see the right angles, how lame, yeah I used to climb around rock like that when I was young too.
Nothing wrong with that.
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crimpandgo
May 23, 2005, 10:31 PM
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In reply to: You must be sick. Or a criminal. Or both. What and who made you think you have the right to even think about deciding who has the right to raise kids or not? WHO?? If Storm did what he did with his daughter BE VERY SURE that he knew what he was doing, that's his daughter there, do you think he cares about her or not? And her mom's was right beside her. You know what? That girl will be able to keep her head cool in a scary or dangerous situation, and that is a very good thing, despite the risk she ( MIGHT BE ) exposed climbing that 4th class ramp, that she probably did a zillion times roped. "Raising children should not be a right, it should be a privilege" Sure, and who would decide whoi has this privilege? You? Youwant to do something? GO down in the streets, in a crack house and start saving people that are really in danger, but noooo it's a lot easier to be another keyborad warrior! What a dickhead. You know, you made me realize that one should be more careful sharing stories here, this place is a nest of dickheads well hidden bethween the good people, anmd in this nation the dickheads like you are far too much valued to be harmless. Have a nice day. I can't believe this. "I've just referred Storm and Jinjee to the Child Protective Services office in their area. I hope they lose their children to the state." Unreal. I hope I never meet you dude while I boulder at Diablo with my kids. And no we don't use a rope either. In reply to: I've just referred Storm and Jinjee to the Child Protective Services office in their area. I hope they lose their children to the state. It would certainly be the best thing for them. How can they even call themselves "parents" when they force their children to risk their lives in pursuit of their father's sport? Raising children should not be a right, it should be a privilege. I hope they lose that privilege.
Well now, hold on there... I am sure any interviews the CPS has with parents reveals a story that the parents "thought" they were helping the child. I truely doubt too many came to the interview saying "yeah, I know I was endangering them"..
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chuffer
May 23, 2005, 10:44 PM
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I just have to say that this is one of the most startling threads that I've ever read on RC.com. When read alongside of the thread about the "unsafe" guide in Red Rocks and a few others it's easy to see an emerging trend in this community. When did so many RC.commers become so self righteous? Why do so many members feel they have the right to pass judgement on those they've never met based on an internet posting and maybe a webpage or two?
Are people really so bored that they are no longer satisfied with the flame wars and pissing contests among themselves? When did it become acceptable to seek out entirely new targets outside of this website and bring them in for public execution? Seriously, this has gone way past name calling. Phoning CPS on complete strangers? You've never even laid eyes on these people! You certainly don't have any real firsthand knowledge of their lives or their situations. That poor girl could be the happiest person alive for all you know. Has this Micah dude even considered how traumatic this could be for those kids? Even if they didn't get yanked out of their homes and shoved unceremoniously into the foster system it would still be an unsettling experience. Don't you think someone closer to the family such as a teacher, doctor, neighbor etc would have already brought in CPS if there were any real problems?
It's obvious to me that Barney (as Dingus has so aptly named him) is very young (I'm guessing around 19 or 20) and definitely has no children of his own. If he did he would know that nothing in the world could be more important to a parent than the well being of their child. I can't imagine that anyone with kids would ever call CPS on someone without damned solid firsthand information that it was absolutely necessary. I can tell you that many people outside of the climbing community (including my sister-in-law) looking in believe it is madness for me to take my two children top roping. I've even had relatives sit me down intervention style and tell me that I had no business climbing myself with a family to consider. My point is that the view from the inside looking out is often very different than the view from the outside looking in.
All of this nonsense about getting some guide fired based on heresay or getting someones kids taken away based on an overblown trumped up website is disgusting. If Barney wants to have his flame war with Dingus then so be it. After all, Dingus came here to participate willingly. Storm, however, is just trying to live his life and didn't ask you for your opinion.
Jeremy
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slablizard
May 23, 2005, 10:48 PM
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I agree.
But bethween someone judging a situation out of a picture on a web site and a parent, I believe the parent, since I am a parent myself.
I am not saying we should all let our kids free solo, I am saying that if he and mom where both there I believe the situation was as safe as climbing can be. I regularly go to Diablo scrambling up rocks not that much easier than the ones in the picture, the kids love it, we just climb up and down together.
The kids are growing up thinking as the outdoor as a comon place to be, not a dangerous one.
If I tell this to some other families parents they look at me like a mad man, since they grew up considering the outdoor "dangerous" threfore they never let thir kids get dirty, not to mention climbing unroped. Of course their convcept of "sport" is to watch soccer on the tv.
I often see at Diablo too families and groups setting TR on stuff I regularly "free solo" with my kids ( 6 and 8 ). 3rd class ramps
Danger is subjective, I agree, but trying to ruin somene's life like that, is criminal. Especially if you don't have the facts right, and I doubt that guy has, since he wasn't there.
In reply to: Well now, hold on there... I am sure any interviews the CPS has with parents reveals a story that the parents "thought" they were helping the child. I truely doubt too many came to the interview saying "yeah, I know I was endangering them".. |
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nomorec4
May 23, 2005, 10:55 PM
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In reply to: wow, of all the lines to cross, you had to cross that one. I'll see you in hell my friend, good day
You my friend are the one who crossed the ultimate line, and now are the target of some of the funniest, most well deserved ridicule I have ever witnessed on the net. Sit back and enjoy it, because we sure the hell are.
Sean
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graniteboy
May 23, 2005, 10:58 PM
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WOW!!!!
20 pages later, and you guys ae still going OFF on this thing....might as well do my part.....
Hey: BVB: Does your new buddy "Storm" know that your B.com personal page uses a picture Of the KLAN getting together to hold a "meeting" er....Lynching?????
I bet STORM would be glad as HELL to have YOU drop by for dinner to discuss the child safety thing if he knew what the hell you were about....I'm sure that whole KLAN thing would bring you two together as Brothers. What a true friend and champion of lame assed causes you are.
Ja, Mon. I am I .
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crimpandgo
May 23, 2005, 11:04 PM
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In reply to: I agree. But bethween someone judging a situation out of a picture on a web site and a parent, I believe the parent, since I am a parent myself. I am not saying we should all let our kids free solo, I am saying that if he and mom where both there I believe the situation was as safe as climbing can be. I regularly go to Diablo scrambling up rocks not that much easier than the ones in the picture, the kids love it, we just climb up and down together. The kids are growing up thinking as the outdoor as a comon place to be, not a dangerous one. If I tell this to some other families parents they look at me like a mad man, since they grew up considering the outdoor "dangerous" threfore they never let thir kids get dirty, not to mention climbing unroped. Of course their convcept of "sport" is to watch soccer on the tv. I often see at Diablo too families and groups setting TR on stuff I regularly "free solo" with my kids ( 6 and 8 ). 3rd class ramps Danger is subjective, I agree, but trying to ruin somene's life like that, is criminal. Especially if you don't have the facts right, and I doubt that guy has, since he wasn't there. In reply to: Well now, hold on there... I am sure any interviews the CPS has with parents reveals a story that the parents "thought" they were helping the child. I truely doubt too many came to the interview saying "yeah, I know I was endangering them"..
Slab,
Nor worries. I agree with your thinking. I just think its ironic with how many deranged people there are out there that actually think they are doing "right" by their kids. Some are products of an abusive upbringing, some are just a little deranged and learned it all on thier own. Some believe they have been contacted by a higher being and are doing what they were told.
I believe this fact is what makes this subject so heated (or at least part of it). You can't assume the parent is actually doing what is best because you are seeing it through your own subjective viewpoint. What one person thinks is acceptable may in fact not be acceptable to a society as a whole. That is why there needs to uniform guidelines to judge each situation against. These uniform guidelines are only as good as the caseworkers that are employed to "judge" the families against.
and thus lies the real problem. You can make uniform guidelines, but it always comes down to a subjective caseworkers subjective judgement what becomes of the situation. if the case is clear cut there usually isn't muchy problem. If the case is not clearcut, the results could depend on subjective evaluations.
I am rambling so I will stop now :)
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bvb
May 23, 2005, 11:25 PM
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In reply to: WOW!!!! 20 pages later, and you guys ae still going OFF on this thing....might as well do my part..... Hey: BVB: Does your new buddy "Storm" know that your B.com personal page uses a picture Of the KLAN getting together to hold a "meeting" er.... Lynching????? I bet STORM would be glad as HELL to have YOU drop by for dinner to discuss the child safety thing if he knew what the hell you were about....I'm sure that whole KLAN thing would bring you two together as Brothers. What a true friend and champion of lame assed causes you are. Ja, Mon. I am I .
pffffft. more toolage from the granitecock.
fyi, dipshit, it's commom for b.commers to hack into others' accounts and change all the settings. that photo is a leftover from my last hack attack, like, a year ago. never noticed it before.
but now that you point it out....i find it ever so fascinating that you should bring up the issue of "lynching" so vehemently, given your position on the issue this thread has been exploring. freudian slip on your part, eh?
granite boy and micahmcguire...twins, seperated at birth? or just a couple of fucking tools?
one of us...one of us...one of us...one of us...one of us...one of us...one of us...
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graniteboy
May 24, 2005, 12:14 AM
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Hey.....No problem.
Just figgered your new playmate Storm would wanna check in on your webpage to see what a pally pal you really are. .....
Are you spending so much time drunk off your ass on cheap Vodka at the NPS office that you haven't checked your B.com personal page to see the lynching pics? I'm sure your new girlfriend Storm will appreciate them.
I'll send him the link, pronto.
Lil Bobby Van, his cheap Alcohol "habit", and his Lynch Mob Pics...... Wooohooooo!!!!!!
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chuffer
May 24, 2005, 12:21 AM
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In reply to: I'm sure your new girlfriend Storm will appreciate them. I'll send him the link, pronto.
I'd say you're not one to call names in the discrimination department. You're obviously a homophobe.
Jeremy
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cintune
May 24, 2005, 12:55 AM
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In reply to: granite boy and micahmcguire...twins, seperated at birth? or just a couple of fucking tools?
I can't find the little boxes we're supposed to click on to vote.
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bvb
May 24, 2005, 1:06 AM
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In reply to: Hey.....No problem. Just figgered your new playmate Storm would wanna check in on your webpage to see what a pally pal you really are. ..... Are you spending so much time drunk off your ass on cheap Vodka at the NPS office that you haven't checked your B.com personal page to see the lynching pics? I'm sure your new girlfriend Storm will appreciate them. I'll send him the link, pronto. Lil Bobby Van, his cheap Alcohol "habit", and his Lynch Mob Pics...... Wooohooooo!!!!!!
one of us...one of us...one of us....one of us...one of us....one of us...
one of us...one of us...one of us....one of us...one of us....one of us...
one of us...one of us...one of us....one of us...one of us....one of us...
one of us...one of us...one of us....one of us...one of us....one of us...
one of us...one of us...one of us....one of us...one of us....one of us...
one of us...one of us...one of us....one of us...one of us....one of us...
one of us...one of us...one of us....one of us...one of us....one of us...
one of us...one of us...one of us....one of us...one of us....one of us...
still a tool, granitejoy. you go, girl.
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bvb
May 24, 2005, 6:55 AM
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In reply to: Hey.....No problem. Are you spending so much time drunk off your ass on cheap Vodka at the NPS office
apparently, not half a much time as you spend spinning lies in your little cube at the fourth-tier uni in reno, beooootch.
your profile: Climbing: abt 30 years worth, mostly trad, free soloing, and alpine climbing. I climb; Walls (big and small) to alaskan monsters to bouldering to trees. I like other climbers who are not egocentric, and who know when to shut the hell up and listen to the voice of experience. I'm a biologist for money and for love. I climb things from 5.2 to about 12b/c. and ice up to WI 5-6. And trees up to abt sequoia 6. And alaska climbing to about PDS (pretty damned scary; alaska grades mean nothing, it's all abt the weather). But I only solo 10d, so I'm not a REAL hardman.
ok, here's the weird thing. you and i, if your profile is even remotely correct, are contemporaries. but i've never even fucking heard of you, rosamond. nor has anybody i know, and my circle of friends is considerable. big ice guy, eh? none of my lee vining or june lake or canadian ice buddies has heard of you. saw yabo solo ebgb's, eh? i bouldered with john a bunch, and lived in josh during that whole time....don't think i ever met you. big wall rat, eh? hmmm...survey says: "never heard of 'em." next: checked in with the olympia and seattle alaska crowd: nyet.
so, my question, chris, is this: are you a tool? or just a fucking liar? serve up the cred, 'cause you're bigtime, homestyle. i'm dying to hear it.
lame tool reply in 10...9...8....7...6....
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graniteboy
May 24, 2005, 10:15 PM
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No...HERE's the deal.
Yes, I've been climbing as long as my profile states, and yes, it's correct.
You and I are from the same chronological cohort. Funny how two people can grow up in the same climbing community...one grows up and does something with his life, while the other continues to clean toilets for NPS till retirement sets in.
No, I did not "See" Yabo solo EBGBs. I just was pretty damned sure he had done so. More than once. I didn't spend alot of time around Yabo after I got to know him a little......he was screwed up in the head, and I tend to avoid those folks after I see their crazy assed behaviour. They get people killed. Like that night screamer on triple direct. If I remember right it was that colorado guy called Rob with him. But yabo WAS a force. No denying it. I bet we agree on that. that's the only thing.
And Yes, You spend alot more time doing self promotion and hanging out with the "Clique" than I do. Maybe that's why you don't know me.
I think it's Delerium Tremens-olicious that you seem to think that you'd know everyone my age who climbs at my level, which I consider to be pretty much "advanced intermediate" by todays standards....maybe you think WI5 or moderate 12s are some sort of big deal?? WOOOHOOOOO!!! too funny....my side is hurting...gotta go.
So, Bob.....Have a drink on me. Then another....then another...then another. You know the drill. You're an expert. Don't mind the liver spots.
And if you get around to confronting your "perpetrator" from those ugly childhood experiences....you'll feel alot better about yourself. It wasn't your fault...he held you down and gave you candy.
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bvb
May 24, 2005, 10:50 PM
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"I think it's Delerium Tremens-olicious that you seem to think that you'd know everyone my age who climbs at my level..."
dude, maybe your reading comprehension needs a tune-up...it's not that i don't know you, it's that nobody knows you, but you spray like a fucking firehose in your profile.....
gotcha, sukker.
http://www.downundermarlincharters.com/...s/bigmarlinfront.jpg
pwned.
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graniteboy
May 25, 2005, 10:35 PM
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Welllll....let's Seee here.....One of us recently described himself as a "brand name climber" and a "famous climber"....and that someone wasn't me. Perhaps the reason your B.com wanker buddies don't know me is because I avoid (like the plague) that little self absorbed "Clique" that you seem to revel in.
Anyway, back to the point: Famous in your own mind, maybe...at least what little is left of it after all of that cheap ass albertson's Vodka...eh??
Have a drink on me, then another, then another..you know the drill.....you're "famous" drinker, er..."climber".
Why is it that you remind me soooo much of the late but not so great Darryl Hatton....last time I saw him alive (which was a looong time ago), Mr Largo was giving him shit and telling him not to drink so much.......didn't Hatton off himself??? Perhaps you'll follow in his "famous" footsteps.....
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pheenixx
May 25, 2005, 11:04 PM
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In reply to: Why is it that you remind me soooo much of the late but not so great Darryl Hatton....last time I saw him alive (which was a looong time ago), Mr Largo was giving him s--- and telling him not to drink so much...
Wasn't he in that "Mermaid" movie also..?? :lol:
Gee - perhaps there should be a "Men's Room" (I know this idea has been visited before) --
or a forum called "Pissing Party". Really guys.. 8^)
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bvb
May 26, 2005, 3:05 AM
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In reply to: Welllll....let's Seee here..... One of us recently described himself as a " brand name climber" and a " famous climber"....and that someone wasn't me.
darryl was killed falling out of a tree while trying to rescue a cat, you halfwitted moronic tool.
pwned again, teh granitecock keeps digging deeper.
http://movies.monstrous.com/...Movie_Monster_12.jpg
one of us...one of us...one of us...one of us....
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fiend
May 26, 2005, 5:11 AM
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I have a purely selfish reason for this thread to not continue...
I haven't read anything that's happened since somewhere around page 14 but I have to look at the damn thread every time I do an egosearch.
Can you start a new thread or something?
Thanks :D
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bvb
May 26, 2005, 7:06 AM
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In reply to: I haven't read anything that's happened since somewhere around page 14 but I have to look at the damn thread every time I do an egosearch.
talk to teh granitetool. i'm only in it for the booze.
http://www.0friction.com/...riction_pic_7636.jpg
pffffffffffffffffffffft
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graniteboy
May 26, 2005, 3:21 PM
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Yoooo Hoooo!!!
Bobby......Now...hasn't this been FUN???
I've pretty much been just trying to keep this ridiculous thread going as long as possible...
We're up to what....21 pages now?
And don't forget when you're in Truckee to drop by so that you can (as you say) "get all up in my face and shit". We're all so scared of you in here....
Upshot: Hatton actually Jumped.
So should you.
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bvb
May 26, 2005, 4:43 PM
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In reply to: Upshot: Hatton actually Jumped.
page 22, here we come....
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graniteboy
May 27, 2005, 3:20 PM
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Yeah...maybe Hatton's pals will come a gunnin for me.
I suspect we can get 30 pages out of this one.
Do you think their guns will be Kalashnokovs, or more like derringers??? Cause kalsahnos I like, but derringers....OOOOOH they're so SnEAKY!!!!
And who really gives a damn?
At any rate, I heard that CPS dropped by the Talifero home, and forced the kids to eat cheeseburgers and beef jerky. They're pulling harder than ever. Raven just sent Astroman. Actually, as it turns out, Raven was 18 years old all along, just stunted from lack of protein. SO all this was apparently for naught. But that's no reason to stop posting inane, angry, threatening statements in here, Eh? So Fire away.
And remind me, I've forgotten how to make those cool colored fonts
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bvb
May 28, 2005, 6:28 AM
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In reply to: Yeah...maybe Hatton's pals will come a gunnin for me. I suspect we can get 30 pages out of this one. Do you think their guns will be Kalashnokovs, or more like derringers??? Cause kalsahnos I like, but derringers....OOOOOH they're so SnEAKY!!!! And who really gives a damn? At any rate, I heard that CPS dropped by the Talifero home, and forced the kids to eat cheeseburgers and beef jerky. They're pulling harder than ever. Raven just sent Astroman. Actually, as it turns out, Raven was 18 years old all along, just stunted from lack of protein. SO all this was apparently for naught. But that's no reason to stop posting inane, angry, threatening statements in here, Eh? So Fire away. And remind me, I've forgotten how to make those cool colored fonts
ever the tool. carry on, granitecock.
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blondgecko
Moderator
May 28, 2005, 6:39 AM
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In reply to: ..., granitecock.
Me, I'd take that as a compliment.
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macherry
May 28, 2005, 1:46 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Upshot: Hatton actually Jumped. i won't have to get all up in your face if darryl's freinds get to you first. page 22, here we come....
nice one graniteboy
you know nothing
:roll:
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erawtica
May 28, 2005, 11:10 PM
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Well, hasn't this deteriorated nicely. lmao
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bvb
May 30, 2005, 4:25 AM
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hell, it had nowhere to go but down from the first post.
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erawtica
May 30, 2005, 1:47 PM
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Actually, thought it started down as far as it could go. Ah well! Humans (ummm, yeah, o.k.) never cease to amaze me.
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