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j_ung
May 28, 2008, 1:02 PM
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Sweet, I made the big time. Bottom of the fourth page -- thanks Happiegrrl! Now I have two fireworks shows to ogle.
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jsh
May 28, 2008, 1:06 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: As for the story, I'm still having problems envisioning it. I'm with Clausti, I'm having a hard time thinking of a spot where the girl would be in a complete hanging position, unable to get back to the rock.
What most people forget about The Move is that you don't make it -right- off the GT.
From the huge ledge, you first climb up a little face about 10 feet. Next, you traverse right 5-10 feet, and position yourself under The Move; it's overhanging here, and the rock you're standing on cuts away even more steeply underneath. This is where most leaders place some gear, and this (right before The Move), is where seconds clean that gear. Then you do The Move; at this point you're 15-20 feet above and right of the crowd on the ledge. After pulling The Move, you head leftward, back towards the main arete.
So, it's quite easy for a second to pull the gear, fail at The Move, and swing left into thin air. In addition, if the belayer hasn't positioned him/herself back at the cliff's edge (the trees are 20-30 feet back from the topout), it's notoriously hard to communicate.
This is, in fact, exactly what I saw on Saturday. My partner and I were rapping No Glow, about 500' to climber's left of High E. I very clearly saw a woman dangling in thin air, a few feet left of and below The Move. There was another person to her right, seemingly right at The Move but standing and facing her. I didn't hear much, but I do remember having heard her say "I know how to do it!" or somesuch.
By the time we got back to our packs, she was no longer hanging, and that's all I know.
(This post was edited by jsh on May 28, 2008, 1:08 PM)
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cracklover
May 28, 2008, 1:07 PM
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For those of you having trouble envisioning it, the scene described is something like this:
With the party of five on the big ledge 15 feet below the bottom hanging party.
GO
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nthusiastj
May 28, 2008, 1:07 PM
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Welcome to the Gunks!!!
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epoch
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May 28, 2008, 1:29 PM
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cracklover wrote: For those of you having trouble envisioning it, the scene described is something like this: With the party of five on the big ledge 15 feet below the bottom hanging party. GO
Gabe, you forgot the green and red arrows.
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happiegrrrl
May 28, 2008, 1:42 PM
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j_ung wrote: Sweet, I made the big time. Bottom of the fourth page -- thanks Happiegrrl! Now I have two fireworks shows to ogle.
AND a PTFTW here on rc..... If you're into that sort of thing, that is...
BTW - IS ANYONE else wishing GoClimb would have had the foresight to place this post in the General section? I mean... it would be so much more lively with the greater audience. (Maybe someone can pretend they know nothing and cross post in General, with something like "I heard a bout a bizarre situation last Saturday at the Gunks..."
And then someone else can say "Do a search, n00b. It's already being discussed (insert hyperlink).
Then - not one, nor two but THREE fireworks displays, just like the three barges in the East River.
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granite_grrl
May 28, 2008, 1:45 PM
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jsh wrote: After pulling The Move, you head leftward, back towards the main arete.
This is the part I was missing/forgetting. Its been a few years since I've done that pitch....thanks!
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clausti
May 28, 2008, 2:06 PM
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cracklover wrote: For those of you having trouble envisioning it, the scene described is something like this: With the party of five on the big ledge 15 feet below the bottom hanging party. GO
I can certainly see how she would have been dangling from that figure, but I don't see how she could have been pulled into the GT and not hurt herself. (looks really far away- she had to have been lower than that, right?)
(This post was edited by clausti on May 28, 2008, 2:07 PM)
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clausti
May 28, 2008, 2:09 PM
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j_ung wrote: Sweet, I made the big time. Bottom of the fourth page -- thanks Happiegrrl! Now I have two fireworks shows to ogle.
can i have a link to the other show?
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Gmburns2000
May 28, 2008, 2:20 PM
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clausti wrote: cracklover wrote: For those of you having trouble envisioning it, the scene described is something like this: With the party of five on the big ledge 15 feet below the bottom hanging party. GO I can certainly see how she would have been dangling from that figure, but I don't see how she could have been pulled into the GT and not hurt herself. (looks really far away- she had to have been lower than that, right?)
In the picture, the third climber is hanging just below a small roof. That roof is actually above a slab(ish) section that is the first part of the third pitch. This picture doesn't show that because the "slab" is on the other side of the arrete and underneath the roof. If she were hanging as the picture shows, one could have climbed up that first section to help her. It wouldn't have been that difficult.
However, I bet that the third climber is actually much lower than in this picture (mostly likely only drawn for perspective). I could see her midway between the third person in this picture and the lower ledge. That would have been quite an exposed section to hang from.
Of course, no one really knows what happened yet. It's all speculation.
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robbovius
May 28, 2008, 2:20 PM
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colatownkid wrote: seriously? this really happened? it sounds a hell of a lot like Vertical Limit to me...
or clint's rescue in "the Eiger Sanction"
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j_ung
May 28, 2008, 2:21 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: j_ung wrote: Sweet, I made the big time. Bottom of the fourth page -- thanks Happiegrrl! Now I have two fireworks shows to ogle. AND a PTFTW here on rc.
Well howdoyoulikethat? I didn't even notice.  
Here you go, Cla:
http://www.gunks.com/...37262/page/0/fpart/1
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epoch
Moderator
May 28, 2008, 2:22 PM
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Moved from I&A to General.
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jsh
May 28, 2008, 2:28 PM
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What I saw was pretty much exactly this. Her head was maybe a foot or two below the upper buttress.
clausti wrote: I can certainly see how she would have been dangling from that figure, but I don't see how she could have been pulled into the GT and not hurt herself.
Exactly. Thus, I have a new hypothesis.
From the GT at No Glow, I saw girl hanging, *and* a guy to her right (he was standing on the rock, facing her). This guy may have been the leader of the party of 5, who would have climbed up to and above her, set some gear at The Move, and gotten her to tie in to another of his ropes that went though the gear and down to the GT. Essentially, this would put her on lead from the GT, but hanging from The Move. Then what I heard - "I know how to do it!" would be her referring to knowing how to tie in.
Then the "1, 2, 3" could have been the 5 people on the GT, hauling her in/up on that end so she could un-tension her own rope, and untie from it. (I'm kind of doubting the people from Modern Times could differentiate webbing from a rope). Maybe that didn't work to un-tension her, so the next step was to cut her own line, while still on the line from below.
Just a thought... the party from below would have at least two ropes. Also, someone had to climb above her to set gear for her to hang/fall on - otherwise she would have factor 2'd past the GT, and we would have heard sirens.
(This post was edited by jsh on May 28, 2008, 2:30 PM)
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dynosore
May 28, 2008, 2:59 PM
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If they were able to get webbing/knife to her, why not give her a prussic loop or some slings to ascend with instead of cutting the rope???
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j_ung
May 28, 2008, 3:02 PM
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If that's what happened, then I might have a slightly higher opinion of the 5-person party's leader. (I say I "might" have a "slightly" higher opinion of that person, because, IMO, bringing a 5-person party up there is still a scorn-worthy offense.) Hell, in the same position, I wouldn't give a rat's ass about the other team's rope, either. I would just want them out of the way, ASAP. I might even enjoy watching the end of the stuck party's rope die a painful death.
Thank goodness nobody got hurt. None of this would be anywhere near as much fun.
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happiegrrrl
May 28, 2008, 3:13 PM
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....that would require not only the space person understanding and knowing how to prussik, but someone else out of....the remaining 7 climbers.... to know the technique.
Pretty amazing that, apparently, nobody did. But to be fair, maybe someone did suggest it and the screamer was too out of control to deal with it.
I look at GoClimb's arrow drawing and - am SO glad I was nowhere near that area. I thought, when reading the Gunks.com post, that I heard the screamer, but was wrong. The one I heard was on Sunday, and further west on the cliff. The imagery of a person dangling* like that and getting them onto the ledge as was described....makes me pretty queazy.
What freaks me out, and not just in this scenario, is how many people are willing to bring people out with them who don't have basic skills, in climbing NOR do they have the skills to assist those partners that they are are well aware cannot be responsible for themselves.
* Should this event be referred to as The Dangler, Direct Variation?....
(edit: Oops, I have been writing GoClimb, and it's Cracklover...I am getting senile).
(This post was edited by happiegrrrl on May 28, 2008, 3:15 PM)
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cracklover
May 28, 2008, 3:26 PM
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GoClimb is me on the other sites, but that moniker was taken when I got to rc.com. I don't mind. I really do love crack.
GO
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j_ung
May 28, 2008, 3:30 PM
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Who doesn't?
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on_belay_hombre
May 28, 2008, 3:35 PM
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Seems to have been an eventful day at the gunks on Saturday...
right around mid-afternoon a friend of mine following le teton fell against the massive dead tree in the gulley there near the first pitch belay and sent it hurtling down the cliff....by accident of course.
I was bringing a first timer up northern pillar at the same time...she asked 'does that kind of thing happen a lot??" after the massive falling log narrowly missed us by about 10 ft.
...heh...
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epoch
Moderator
May 28, 2008, 3:43 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: What freaks me out, and not just in this scenario, is how many people are willing to bring people out with them who don't have basic skills, in climbing NOR do they have the skills to assist those partners that they are are well aware cannot be responsible for themselves.
I, like j_ung, am enjoying the bench sittin on this little story here. I like that we can what-if this scenario to death, and yet there will still be another way to deal with it. High-E is known as the most classic 5.6 on the East coast - arguably anywhere - and it will forever attract new climbers, if only because it is only rated 5.6. Not everyone has the requisite skills to conduct self rescue. That's why rescue organizations exist.
I'm glad to read that no one was injured - except for maybe some pride. And all that resulted was a screaming, terrified, girl. Look back at the stuff you did when you were new to climbing? Now, was there at least one thing you did that you could have done better. Granted, this particular incident is at the far end of the spectrum, but I garantee that the three of them will be better because of it.
I doubt that we'll get a first-hand account of the situation.
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happiegrrrl
May 28, 2008, 4:24 PM
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Well, epoch....everybody does things differently, and I don't suggest people need do things my way. But I do think it's reasonable to expect a leader to understand exactly what a route has in store for someone who is new, if they are bringing them out. Maybe a climb with an intimidating, exposed and pumpy bit of climbing isn't the best choice.
When I was a newb fresh from the gym, I learned the concepts of things like prussiks, autoblocks, hauling and above all, sell-accountability, before I went outside.
My first outdoors climb was with guides, although it happened serendipitous;y and had not been my intent. Still, I am glad it happened that way.
When I went out as a newb, I made sure the people I was going with had real experience. I turned down an awful lot of offers from people who's experience I couldn't ascertain, being a girl and all. I listened to the stories of other girls finding themselves out with "5.10 leaders" who couldn't get off the deck on 5.7, and worse. I didn't want to be in that situation and I took it upon myself to learn as much as I could.
When I wanted to lead, I got my gear and practiced at ground school. I still am taking it slow, and ticking easy stuff to get the mileage before pushing higher grades. The numbers just aren't that important to me. And now I am starting to get out with people less experienced and so.....the routes are even easier that I lead.
Even so, it was always in my head that I was responsible for myself, and if my partner was extra capable that was a bonus, and a wonderful opportunity for me to learn, but I shouldn't count on it.
Of course, There was a lot I didn't know that I didn't know. As is the case still. But I can't say as of yet that I've ever found myself inexplicably in a bad situation that I don't know how to handle. I hope I never do.
Anyway - this is an interesting event, and I do wish there could be a first hand accounting. But mainly I'm here for the entertainment factor, and not to try to figure out the exact details and how things should have played.
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weatherm
May 28, 2008, 4:30 PM
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idiots. well, that's Darwinism for you. I would punch the leader guy in the nose for letting a screaming mimmy get a hold of something sharp. People panic they die... this is just another example... glad they didn't die though.
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