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majid_sabet
May 28, 2008, 4:41 PM
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troutboy wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: let me get this straight... the third was dangling and she CUT HER ROPE? I'm guessing that the webbing that was thrown to her was attached to an anchor, and that is what caught her after she cut the rope??? Nope, would never work. Any fall onto a static piece like webbing would cause serious injury, break the webbing, or destroy the anchor. The only way this scenario works is: 1) The "rescuers" can actually reach the victim (legs maybe) and pull her in, the webbing being only a secondary thing in case they blow the pull
2) The rescuers pull the victim inward toward the wall using the webbing just before she cuts the rope so that she drops onto the ledge and not outward into oblivion. rtwilli4 wrote: If they got a piece of webbing to the girl, why didn't they just pull her into the anchor/ledge or somewhere on the rock where she could climb to the anchor/ledge?? I can think of 2 reasons: 1) The crux move involves a traverse out an overhang, about 15 feet above the ledge. Quite conceivable she could fall and not be able to reach the rock or be able to be reached from the ledge. 2) She was cowtailed into the rope with another climber, probably not far above. It's possible there was not enough rope for her to use momentum to swing inward enough the reach the wall. I can think of several ways to overcome this problem, but the victims and "rescuers" obviously could not. rtwilli4 wrote: i've never been to the gunks but what the hell were 8 people doing climbing that close together anyways? is that normal? is it really that crowded there? how long is that route? Yes and yes (at least on High E). Route is 3 pitches, approx 225 feet. Climber would have been dangling about 180 feet in the air, with the ledge partially below and to her left. I'm sure we would all like to know exactly how this scenario played out, but one thing that could not have happened is that the webbing caught a direct fall (she walked away uninjured, apparently). TS
Did you made this up or you seen it in a movie ?
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WVUCLMBR
May 28, 2008, 4:46 PM
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Holy flippin shit Batman!!!! a accident/injury/rescue thread made it to the 3rd page before Majid chimed in?????
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majid_sabet
May 28, 2008, 5:05 PM
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WVUCLMBR wrote: Holy flippin shit Batman!!!! a accident/injury/rescue thread made it to the 3rd page before Majid chimed in?????
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Gmburns2000
May 28, 2008, 5:08 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: WVUCLMBR wrote: Holy flippin shit Batman!!!! a accident/injury/rescue thread made it to the 3rd page before Majid chimed in????? This is like bunch of loose skateboarder trying rock climbing on weekend. I am trying to figure out why in hell, the leader of the other group offered a knife to a n00b to cut her life line.
Maybe he didn't like her and wanted to shut her up. [shrugs]
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majid_sabet
May 28, 2008, 5:12 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: WVUCLMBR wrote: Holy flippin shit Batman!!!! a accident/injury/rescue thread made it to the 3rd page before Majid chimed in????? This is like bunch of loose skateboarder trying rock climbing on weekend. I am trying to figure out why in hell, the leader of the other group offered a knife to a n00b to cut her life line. Maybe he didn't like her and wanted to shut her up. [shrugs]
you see, three pages of post and yet, no one is asking why
1- A leader of the first party of three abandons his other two climber and went on his own
2- why the leader of the second party of 5 offered a knife to cut someone's life line.
These are some serious issues guys. Think about your fuc*ing leadership rules when you lead a team.
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Gmburns2000
May 28, 2008, 5:15 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: WVUCLMBR wrote: Holy flippin shit Batman!!!! a accident/injury/rescue thread made it to the 3rd page before Majid chimed in????? This is like bunch of loose skateboarder trying rock climbing on weekend. I am trying to figure out why in hell, the leader of the other group offered a knife to a n00b to cut her life line. Maybe he didn't like her and wanted to shut her up. [shrugs] you see, three pages of post and yet, no one is asking why 1- A leader of the first party of three abandons his other two climber and went on his own 2- why the leader of the second party of 5 offered a knife to cut someone's life line. These are some serious issues guys. Think about your fuc*ing leadership rules when you lead a team.
I haven't heard anything about the leader leaving the other two climbers, but again, my reading comprehension has been called into question, so I could've just missed it.
As for #2, I think several people have asked this question, too.
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j_ung
May 28, 2008, 5:20 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: you see, three pages of post and yet, no one is asking why 1- A leader of the first party of three abandons his other two climber and went on his own 2- why the leader of the second party of 5 offered a knife to cut someone's life line. These are some serious issues guys. Think about your fuc*ing leadership rules when you lead a team.
Here's another question: Why is it that, after three pages of us discussing those very questions, do think we haven't been?
(This post was edited by j_ung on May 28, 2008, 5:21 PM)
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WVUCLMBR
May 28, 2008, 5:27 PM
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I can't believe I missed his 1st post.....must be my brain auto-ignoring his BS.
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guccipiggy
May 28, 2008, 5:30 PM
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Everybody is asking why. Do we know what happened yet. Did anybody here witness the incident or are we all just guessing?
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miscmouse
May 28, 2008, 5:33 PM
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In regards to #1, i dont see how the leader of the first party of three abandoned his climbers. He must have been sitting up there with holding them on belay.
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majid_sabet
May 28, 2008, 5:34 PM
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WVUCLMBR wrote: I can't believe I missed his 1st post.....must be my brain auto-ignoring his BS.
You been missing my point ever since you came to RC.
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k.l.k
May 28, 2008, 5:35 PM
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epoch wrote: Granted, this particular incident is at the far end of the spectrum, but I garantee that the three of them will be better because of it.
What are you basing this on?
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majid_sabet
May 28, 2008, 5:45 PM
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miscmouse wrote: In regards to #1, i dont see how the leader of the first party of three abandoned his climbers. He must have been sitting up there with holding them on belay.
When you loose control of your leadership, sh*t begins to fly in every direction. A leader sitting on a ledge and not solving his problems is as good as abandoning the situation.
edit to add ;IMO, both leader fuc*ed up big time by jeopardizing the life of another inexperience climber.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 28, 2008, 5:48 PM)
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epoch
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May 28, 2008, 7:07 PM
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k.l.k wrote: epoch wrote: Granted, this particular incident is at the far end of the spectrum, but I garantee that the three of them will be better because of it. What are you basing this on?
As a general rule, people learn from thier mistakes. If they don't, then does it fit into the "Natural Selection" category?
It may be prudent to assume that the girl may be hesitant, if not reluctant to climb with the particular members of that party? We don't know details, nor the ensuing conversation that happened afterwards. All we can do is speculate.
My speculation is that at least 6 of the 8 involved will walk away with something from this situation. Hopefully all 8 of them will gain something from this experience, but that is assumption.
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saxfiend
May 28, 2008, 7:34 PM
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I can't help wondering why the leader of the three-person party didn't just lower the two seconds enough for someone in the five-person party to pull them back in and onto the GT ledge?
JL
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hafilax
May 28, 2008, 7:37 PM
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I bet an autoblocked ATC-guide was involved and that the leader didn't know how to release it to lower especially with 2 climbers on it.
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rtwilli4
May 28, 2008, 7:41 PM
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In reply to: I can't help wondering why the leader of the three-person party didn't just lower the two seconds enough for someone in the five-person party to pull them back in and onto the GT ledge?
I've never been there but after seeing the picture, I'm wondering the same thing. What the hell was the leader of the 3 person team doing? Why didn't he/she take charge and lower them both back down? Maybe it's just the picture (again I've never been there), but from the picture it looks like both climber #2 and climber #3 could have been lowered to the "GT Ledge."
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rtwilli4
May 28, 2008, 7:42 PM
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In reply to: I bet an autoblocked ATC-guide was involved and that the leader didn't know how to release it to lower especially with 2 climbers on it.
Maybe THAT's why :)
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saxfiend
May 28, 2008, 7:48 PM
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rtwilli4 wrote: In reply to: I bet an autoblocked ATC-guide was involved and that the leader didn't know how to release it to lower especially with 2 climbers on it. Maybe THAT's why :)
JL
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angry
May 28, 2008, 7:53 PM
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Personally, I would have rapped off the core strands of the prussic cord I use to attach my chalkbag.
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troutboy
May 28, 2008, 8:01 PM
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rtwilli4 wrote: I've never been there but after seeing the picture, I'm wondering the same thing. What the hell was the leader of the 3 person team doing? Why didn't he/she take charge and lower them both back down? Maybe it's just the picture (again I've never been there), but from the picture it looks like both climber #2 and climber #3 could have been lowered to the "GT Ledge."
2 issues here not obvious from the photo:
1) The cliff (after the crux move) is overhanging a bit and contributes to...
2) Communication from the crux to the top of the pitch being problematic, especially if the leader does not belay from the beginning of a short section of 3rd/4th class scrambling that leads to the actual cliff top and chooses to belay at the very top of the cliff instead.
Also, I cannot remember this for certain, but it's possible (due to the traversing nature of the climb prior to the crux) that a direct lower would result in someone missing the ledge and being lowered into space far enough away from the ledge to not be able to reach it. Perhaps someone who has done the route more recently can confirm/deny this.
Just possibles. It could truly be the leader just did not know how to lower using a reverso-type device.
TS
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jcrew
May 28, 2008, 8:08 PM
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sounds like the Eiger Sanction, where Clint has to cut the rope and get pulled into the train tunnel.
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jrathfon
May 28, 2008, 8:24 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: miscmouse wrote: In regards to #1, i dont see how the leader of the first party of three abandoned his climbers. He must have been sitting up there with holding them on belay. When you loose control of your leadership, sh*t begins to fly in every direction. A leader sitting on a ledge and not solving his problems is as good as abandoning the situation. edit to add ;IMO, both leader fuc*ed up big time by jeopardizing the life of another inexperience climber.
So if he didn't know how to lower with an auto-locking belay, and he didn't know to extend the anchor so he could communicate with his party, and none of them new how to instruct the girl how to prussik (which could have also been used to release tension to transfer onto the other rope in the previously discussed hypothetical rescue), then he should have escaped the belay and used the 2nd rope that he pulls out of his ass to lower an assist to the 3rd person. Then the 3rd person could prussik up the make believe rope with make believe knowledge of the required techniques?
I've been watching for a while, but I'll bite, and admit to mild foolishness from the past.
Last year my girlfriend and I decided to sqeeze in one more "moderate" climb to end the day. We had just finished Keep on Struttin and CCK Direct. We wanted two pitches of something like an 8, oooo Modern Times, 2 pitches, I had heard something about it being good. Sweet, OK, blast to the GT. Run it out to the top of the blocks and hit the roof, make a mini-anchor, crank the first roof, sling the tree, pop in a piece or two, hard mantle, and hit the top. I extended the anchor to the lip as it was windy and I wanted to hear my gf. Ok, on belay. She strides up, asks me "what did you do here?", "I pulled the roof, duh...", so she grunts and pulls it and is elated, she unslings the tree and then realizes the next move is kind of hard, she start's cussing and flinagling, what have you, says "here goes" and tries to traverse and falls, being pumped out. She swings and falls out into thin air, about 6 ft from the rock, 6 ft from the wall, and hundreds from the ground. I can't see her, and she's yelling "I can't get back on, blah, blah", I don't know what's going on, so I just wait and asume she'll figure it out. 10 minutes go by.... hmmm, it's windy, so I hadn't really tried to communicate, but decide it's about time to figure out what's up. I get back that she pendulumed off the route basically from where the tree was (the next piece was about 4 ft right, I had placed extra pro for the 2nd on traverse but figured 4 ft would be fine). She was dangling. I couldn't really here her and couldn't really relate anything to her. So I escaped the belay (I had used my rope for my safety), extended basically got over the lip, and made some contact. Still couldnt hear every word she was saying, but she could hear me fine. OK, take out a shoulder length sling (she'd been cleaning gear), OK now clip a sliing into the biner and hold the biner spine flush to the rope gate opening down, OK now warp the sling around rope and biner and clip through the biner each timing, essentially wrapping the sling around the rope and the spine of the biner. OK clip the sling into your belay loop, etc., etc, double shoulder-length, step into it, now repeat. 5 minutes later, WOW! I'm ascending... SWEET! says me, "now just don't climb into the last piece, leave slack", "wait, what?..." anyhow, with a little bachman knots, A0 and grunting she topped out an hour after falling. I had considered making a 2:1 and lowering it to her with the 100ft of rope I had, not requiring any teaching on the spot, but she handled it well. Moral of the story, I should have realized that big roof with a pumpy traverse was not the best route for my gf, but I knew the proper skills to fix the situation. That day prompted a day of instruction for my gf, in some self-rescue, more prussik setups, and some gear know-how. All in all we learned from it, and she was grateful I knew my stuff.
It was a similar situation, I got my partner in over her head, but never at any point did we consider severing our life line. I would have rather just let her hang and yelled or rapped down another party's rope to go get a rescue. Stupid risks are stupid, and waiting for a proper rescue is well worth your life.
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