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olderic
Jun 6, 2008, 1:57 PM
Post #176 of 228
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happiegrrrl wrote: Well....I guess he meant from post #2 then....heheheh Yup. 2 is the new 1.
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cracklover
Jun 6, 2008, 5:21 PM
Post #178 of 228
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olderic wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: Well....I guess he meant from post #2 then....heheheh Yup. 2 is the new 1. Actually, I don't think the speculation started until around post 22 (troutboy's post). This was well after several folks who were nearby offered their experiences. But I appreciate everyone's posts, as they helped keep the thread rolling until the guy who actually had something useful to add happened to notice and report back. Oh, and it's been entertaining! ;) Cheers, GO
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leemouse
Jul 2, 2008, 5:51 PM
Post #179 of 228
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So, just a comment on the Gunks/WV comparisons, and a little story along with it. I'm a Gunks local and I just got back from a weekend climbing at Seneca and it was REMARKABLE. Friday I think I saw one other party the entire day (coming up as I was rapping off). I've pretty much given up on climbing at the Gunks on weekends as a result of the complete freakshows that seem to occur all the time (although I've not witnessed anything like this High E episode, thank God). But, unfortunately, we don't seem to have a complete monopoly on idiots. I climbed Ecstasy on Saturday in a party of three - one guide (I'm not back to leading yet since my daughter was born), a friend who doesn't have a lot of multi-pitch experience, and me. Since my friend was very nervous about cleaning anchors, I was the third. I was at the second (hanging) belay on the route while my friend climbed the third and final pitch, and she was struggling a bit at the crux. So I had plenty of time to watch a party coming up below me on Muscle Beach, which I understand is a 5.11. The guy at the anchor is belaying up a woman second. The first thing I notice is that he's got the rope in his lap at the hanging belay and it's giving him some trouble, and he keeps TAKING BOTH HIS HANDS OFF THE BELAY to fix it. As she joins him at the belay, I notice that she's got a rental helmet on, which strikes me as odd - if you're a 5.11 trad climber I just would assume you own your own helmet. But perhaps she forgot. . . He starts up the next pitch and basically climbs 30 feet up without placing a single piece of gear. And she's belaying him right from her harness, no directional above her at all (he's not even clipped into the anchor). So I'm getting kind of sketched out just watching him. Finally he clips an old piton (!) and keeps on going until he's directly over my head. At this point, with no other gear but the piton for 40+ feet, he starts to get shaky, saying to his belayer "uh oh, watch me here." I am meanwhile freaking out at the thought that if he comes off he's going to land in my lap OR go whizzing by me, and hoping that if he does the pin will hold the fall so that he doesn't wind up taking a 100-footer directly onto his belay. I bascially extend myself as far as I can get from anchor so that he won't land on me. FINALLY he places a piece of gear and climbs on. Whew. Two minutes later I hear him say, kind of conversationally, "rock." A second later (when he sees that the rock the guy has kicked off is the size of a grapefruit), my party's leader yells "ROCK ROCK ROCK!" just in time for me to duck into the alcove and have it miss me by a few feet. He managed to kick off another big rock as he's topping out, but luckily by this time I was on the route and not directly under him. I was so angry by the time I topped out that I couldn't even speak - I just untied and walked up the trail away from the scene. The amazing thing is that our leader actually told the guy that he needed to be a little more careful about kicking off debris, especially when he's above another party, and that he should apologize to me. The guy wouldn't meet his eyes and never said boo to me when I walked back over to rap off. So, here's a guy, clearly climbs hard, but is gonna get himself or someone else killed if he continues to climb that way. Luckily I think that's an exception at Seneca. I'm already planning a trip back next month. Gas prices be damned.
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epoch
Moderator
Jul 4, 2008, 1:27 AM
Post #181 of 228
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Sorry about that folks.... (if you have to ask...)
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stymingersfink
Jul 4, 2008, 5:42 AM
Post #182 of 228
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Registered: Aug 12, 2003
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epoch wrote: Sorry about that folks.... (if you have to ask...) I should say! tried to find a mod when it first showed up... you guys must'a all been out climbing or somethin!
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sungam
Jul 4, 2008, 9:19 AM
Post #183 of 228
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epoch wrote: Sorry about that folks.... (if you have to ask...) I have to ask...
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stymingersfink
Jul 4, 2008, 3:58 PM
Post #184 of 228
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sungam wrote: epoch wrote: Sorry about that folks.... (if you have to ask...) I have to ask... then you have either a very short memory, or it's irrelevant.
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sungam
Jul 4, 2008, 4:16 PM
Post #185 of 228
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Well I... wait, what?
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hyhuu
Jul 9, 2008, 2:07 PM
Post #186 of 228
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Registered: Jul 25, 2001
Posts: 492
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That guy was me. I apologize I made you felt uncomfortable or I was being rude that day. I was definitely in a bad mood and sure acting like a jerk. Your leader endless babbling didn't help either. That said, let's get some facts straight. First, the route I was on is Sixth Sense, not Muscle Beach and yes I've been on Muscle Beach before (a much better climb with cleaner rocks). Sixth Sense goes to the left of Estacy on the third pitch so at no time I was directly above you. You can check with you leader or the guide book. Second, I wasn't having trouble with the rope. Hanging belay is uncomfortable, I was just trying to get more comfortable by shifting around. Yes I took my hands of the belay but it is an autolock, perhaps you've heard of such device? Third, I didn't place any gear for the first 30 ft because THERE IS NO PLACE to place one. There is a reason why the piton is there in the first place. Beside, the climbing is no harder than 5.5 in that section. Fourth, I wasn't getting shaky. Again, the climbing there isn't harder than 5.5. I called my belayer for attention because of the loose rocks I encountered. And one piece did come off but it was a tiny one. I did yelled along with your leader. Fifth, your party above took up the entire belaying ledge above and didn't offer me some space so I was forced to belay on a slope filled with bushes and trees. That's where I accidentally dislodge a pebble (not big rock) probably from the bush. There is no big rock up there anywhere on that ledge. As long as we get those facts straightened, you are welcome to call me idiot or whatever name you see fit. However, I do sincerely apologize. If I see you again at Seneca, I will apologize in person. I've been climbing at Seneca for a number of years and I have one warning. Rock falls at Seneca happen quite often as some of the ledges above are filled with pebbles and the rocks are exfolliating, especially on routes that aren't climbed often. I've gotten my share as a receiver over the years. If you climb there often, you'll come across the same thing too, especially on a crowded day. One other question: How can you stand your guide constant babbling? Even at 10 ft away, his chattering gave me a headache. hyhuu
leemouse wrote: So, just a comment on the Gunks/WV comparisons, and a little story along with it. I'm a Gunks local and I just got back from a weekend climbing at Seneca and it was REMARKABLE. Friday I think I saw one other party the entire day (coming up as I was rapping off). I've pretty much given up on climbing at the Gunks on weekends as a result of the complete freakshows that seem to occur all the time (although I've not witnessed anything like this High E episode, thank God). But, unfortunately, we don't seem to have a complete monopoly on idiots. I climbed Ecstasy on Saturday in a party of three - one guide (I'm not back to leading yet since my daughter was born), a friend who doesn't have a lot of multi-pitch experience, and me. Since my friend was very nervous about cleaning anchors, I was the third. I was at the second (hanging) belay on the route while my friend climbed the third and final pitch, and she was struggling a bit at the crux. So I had plenty of time to watch a party coming up below me on Muscle Beach, which I understand is a 5.11. The guy at the anchor is belaying up a woman second. The first thing I notice is that he's got the rope in his lap at the hanging belay and it's giving him some trouble, and he keeps TAKING BOTH HIS HANDS OFF THE BELAY to fix it. As she joins him at the belay, I notice that she's got a rental helmet on, which strikes me as odd - if you're a 5.11 trad climber I just would assume you own your own helmet. But perhaps she forgot. . . He starts up the next pitch and basically climbs 30 feet up without placing a single piece of gear. And she's belaying him right from her harness, no directional above her at all (he's not even clipped into the anchor). So I'm getting kind of sketched out just watching him. Finally he clips an old piton (!) and keeps on going until he's directly over my head. At this point, with no other gear but the piton for 40+ feet, he starts to get shaky, saying to his belayer "uh oh, watch me here." I am meanwhile freaking out at the thought that if he comes off he's going to land in my lap OR go whizzing by me, and hoping that if he does the pin will hold the fall so that he doesn't wind up taking a 100-footer directly onto his belay. I bascially extend myself as far as I can get from anchor so that he won't land on me. FINALLY he places a piece of gear and climbs on. Whew. Two minutes later I hear him say, kind of conversationally, "rock." A second later (when he sees that the rock the guy has kicked off is the size of a grapefruit), my party's leader yells "ROCK ROCK ROCK!" just in time for me to duck into the alcove and have it miss me by a few feet. He managed to kick off another big rock as he's topping out, but luckily by this time I was on the route and not directly under him. I was so angry by the time I topped out that I couldn't even speak - I just untied and walked up the trail away from the scene. The amazing thing is that our leader actually told the guy that he needed to be a little more careful about kicking off debris, especially when he's above another party, and that he should apologize to me. The guy wouldn't meet his eyes and never said boo to me when I walked back over to rap off. So, here's a guy, clearly climbs hard, but is gonna get himself or someone else killed if he continues to climb that way. Luckily I think that's an exception at Seneca. I'm already planning a trip back next month. Gas prices be damned.
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Gmburns2000
Jul 9, 2008, 2:20 PM
Post #187 of 228
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Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
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Wow, and I thought this popcorn went stale. Funny what butter can do to soften the oldness. chew, chew, crunch, crunch Edit: fixed a typo
(This post was edited by Gmburns2000 on Jul 9, 2008, 2:20 PM)
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markc
Jul 9, 2008, 2:39 PM
Post #188 of 228
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Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
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Gmburns2000 wrote: Wow, and I thought this popcorn went stale. Funny what butter can do to soften the oldness. chew, chew, crunch, crunch It's always fun when someone starts talking shit on the internet, only to find that they're not as anonymous as they hoped.
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notapplicable
Jul 9, 2008, 3:39 PM
Post #189 of 228
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Registered: Aug 31, 2006
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hyhuu wrote: That guy was me. I apologize I made you felt uncomfortable or I was being rude that day. I was definitely in a bad mood and sure acting like a jerk. Your leader endless babbling didn't help either. That said, let's get some facts straight. First, the route I was on is Sixth Sense, not Muscle Beach and yes I've been on Muscle Beach before (a much better climb with cleaner rocks). Sixth Sense goes to the left of Estacy on the third pitch so at no time I was directly above you. You can check with you leader or the guide book. Second, I wasn't having trouble with the rope. Hanging belay is uncomfortable, I was just trying to get more comfortable by shifting around. Yes I took my hands of the belay but it is an autolock, perhaps you've heard of such device? Third, I didn't place any gear for the first 30 ft because THERE IS NO PLACE to place one. There is a reason why the piton is there in the first place. Beside, the climbing is no harder than 5.5 in that section. Fourth, I wasn't getting shaky. Again, the climbing there isn't harder than 5.5. I called my belayer for attention because of the loose rocks I encountered. And one piece did come off but it was a tiny one. I did yelled along with your leader. Fifth, your party above took up the entire belaying ledge above and didn't offer me some space so I was forced to belay on a slope filled with bushes and trees. That's where I accidentally dislodge a pebble (not big rock) probably from the bush. There is no big rock up there anywhere on that ledge. As long as we get those facts straightened, you are welcome to call me idiot or whatever name you see fit. However, I do sincerely apologize. If I see you again at Seneca, I will apologize in person. I've been climbing at Seneca for a number of years and I have one warning. Rock falls at Seneca happen quite often as some of the ledges above are filled with pebbles and the rocks are exfolliating, especially on routes that aren't climbed often. I've gotten my share as a receiver over the years. If you climb there often, you'll come across the same thing too, especially on a crowded day. One other question: How can you stand your guide constant babbling? Even at 10 ft away, his chattering gave me a headache. hyhuu leemouse wrote: So, just a comment on the Gunks/WV comparisons, and a little story along with it. I'm a Gunks local and I just got back from a weekend climbing at Seneca and it was REMARKABLE. Friday I think I saw one other party the entire day (coming up as I was rapping off). I've pretty much given up on climbing at the Gunks on weekends as a result of the complete freakshows that seem to occur all the time (although I've not witnessed anything like this High E episode, thank God). But, unfortunately, we don't seem to have a complete monopoly on idiots. I climbed Ecstasy on Saturday in a party of three - one guide (I'm not back to leading yet since my daughter was born), a friend who doesn't have a lot of multi-pitch experience, and me. Since my friend was very nervous about cleaning anchors, I was the third. I was at the second (hanging) belay on the route while my friend climbed the third and final pitch, and she was struggling a bit at the crux. So I had plenty of time to watch a party coming up below me on Muscle Beach, which I understand is a 5.11. The guy at the anchor is belaying up a woman second. The first thing I notice is that he's got the rope in his lap at the hanging belay and it's giving him some trouble, and he keeps TAKING BOTH HIS HANDS OFF THE BELAY to fix it. As she joins him at the belay, I notice that she's got a rental helmet on, which strikes me as odd - if you're a 5.11 trad climber I just would assume you own your own helmet. But perhaps she forgot. . . He starts up the next pitch and basically climbs 30 feet up without placing a single piece of gear. And she's belaying him right from her harness, no directional above her at all (he's not even clipped into the anchor). So I'm getting kind of sketched out just watching him. Finally he clips an old piton (!) and keeps on going until he's directly over my head. At this point, with no other gear but the piton for 40+ feet, he starts to get shaky, saying to his belayer "uh oh, watch me here." I am meanwhile freaking out at the thought that if he comes off he's going to land in my lap OR go whizzing by me, and hoping that if he does the pin will hold the fall so that he doesn't wind up taking a 100-footer directly onto his belay. I bascially extend myself as far as I can get from anchor so that he won't land on me. FINALLY he places a piece of gear and climbs on. Whew. Two minutes later I hear him say, kind of conversationally, "rock." A second later (when he sees that the rock the guy has kicked off is the size of a grapefruit), my party's leader yells "ROCK ROCK ROCK!" just in time for me to duck into the alcove and have it miss me by a few feet. He managed to kick off another big rock as he's topping out, but luckily by this time I was on the route and not directly under him. I was so angry by the time I topped out that I couldn't even speak - I just untied and walked up the trail away from the scene. The amazing thing is that our leader actually told the guy that he needed to be a little more careful about kicking off debris, especially when he's above another party, and that he should apologize to me. The guy wouldn't meet his eyes and never said boo to me when I walked back over to rap off. So, here's a guy, clearly climbs hard, but is gonna get himself or someone else killed if he continues to climb that way. Luckily I think that's an exception at Seneca. I'm already planning a trip back next month. Gas prices be damned. Dont lie, you were trying to kill yourself, your partner and their whole party. We know its true.
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dingus
Jul 9, 2008, 3:44 PM
Post #190 of 228
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Registered: Dec 16, 2002
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saxfiend wrote: I can't help wondering why the leader of the three-person party didn't just lower the two seconds enough for someone in the five-person party to pull them back in and onto the GT ledge? JL Was this ever answered? I immediately wondered - why not treat the two stuck climbers like stuffed sacks of shit? If they Party of Five (sounds like a TV show) could toss her a friggin long sling, why couldn't they have reeled her in as she and her worthless 2nd were lowered off? Vertical Limit dhude!!!111 DMT
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camhead
Jul 9, 2008, 3:47 PM
Post #191 of 228
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dingus wrote: saxfiend wrote: I can't help wondering why the leader of the three-person party didn't just lower the two seconds enough for someone in the five-person party to pull them back in and onto the GT ledge? JL Was this ever answered? I immediately wondered - why not treat the two stuck climbers like stuffed sacks of shit? If they Party of Five (sounds like a TV show) could toss her a friggin long sling, why couldn't they have reeled her in as she and her worthless 2nd were lowered off? Vertical Limit dhude!!!111 DMT I think that was covered already. There was a stuck autoblocking belay device that the leader at the top did not know how to release.
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dingus
Jul 9, 2008, 4:14 PM
Post #192 of 228
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camhead wrote: dingus wrote: saxfiend wrote: I can't help wondering why the leader of the three-person party didn't just lower the two seconds enough for someone in the five-person party to pull them back in and onto the GT ledge? JL Was this ever answered? I immediately wondered - why not treat the two stuck climbers like stuffed sacks of shit? If they Party of Five (sounds like a TV show) could toss her a friggin long sling, why couldn't they have reeled her in as she and her worthless 2nd were lowered off? Vertical Limit dhude!!!111 DMT I think that was covered already. There was a stuck autoblocking belay device that the leader at the top did not know how to release. Ah thanks. I came upon The Post that described the sitch. There is a lesson here for the more sober to ponder, imo.... when we get into some bad situation, we climbers, we humans, we can be come severely tunnel-visioned due to stress and compartmentalized thinking. I've seen this behavior on wall climbs and doubtless exhibited it myself more than once ... we are about to blow apart at the seams and to cope we tend to compartmentalize; focus on the specific task at hand to the exclusion of all else. This helps us 'eat an elephant' one bite at a time but also shields us, sometimes utterly blocks out, all other possibilities, all other considerations. Sounds like many folk got tunnel visioned that day - spiraling down the rabbit-hole of bad decisions. When sober folk examine the 'decision chain' of an accident we sometimes ponder things with slack jawed wonder...' how could that have gotten to the position of CUTTING THE ROPE!' Those of us standing back here look at that one decision as an act of madness.... when in fact an entire series of small craziness led to it. The lesson, imo, for us all to ponder, each in our own contexts and experiences, is how to remain calm and open to the greater possibilities whan all about us are losing their shit! I've had shit happen, I bet most experienced climbers have, where I started down that spiral rabbit hole of getting myself to the brink of a very bad decision. Ole Arno speaks of this subject in his mental exercise stuff for leaders to consider - how to be mentally open and calm. Just something to think about. Cheers DMT ps. Cutting the rope.... sheesh! Sounds dramatic.
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saxfiend
Jul 9, 2008, 5:00 PM
Post #193 of 228
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dingus wrote: The lesson, imo, for us all to ponder, each in our own contexts and experiences, is how to remain calm and open to the greater possibilities whan all about us are losing their shit! Great post, Dingus. Like you said, the mental game Arno talks about applies to more than just getting up the rock. This is also a good wake-up call for me that it's been far too long since I took a self-rescue course or reviewed what I learned in that course. JL
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dingus
Jul 9, 2008, 6:41 PM
Post #194 of 228
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jsh wrote: Once she's fallen, scared, and helpless, it is 100% someone else's responsibility to make sure she gets to the ground safely and calmly. Well I don't agree with this damsel-in-distress analysis at all. Whatever happened to the notion of self-sufficiency. Wny not let her and her partners dangle in their reality-bath for a while? Let the fear wash over and through... maybe cleanse them a bit? I'm serious.... this '100% someone else's responsibility' notion just astounds me. Like someone eventually could have sauntered up to the top and showed the leas doofus how to work his belay device? Really, so the woman dangling on the rope suffers a panic attack - so what? I bet it'd teach her a valuable lesson.... DMT
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rob6118
Jul 9, 2008, 6:59 PM
Post #195 of 228
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Same reason why a new climber can't possibly figure out a FEFT knot and tie a reasonably sound TR anchor w/o paying a guide 400-500 bucks.
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sungam
Jul 9, 2008, 8:05 PM
Post #196 of 228
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Registered: Jun 24, 2004
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dead on dmt. Her saftey is almost all down to her, checking that her partner is being safe, that she'll be able to recover from any situation ETC. wether or not she knew this, and how to make sure of these things...
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notapplicable
Jul 9, 2008, 8:18 PM
Post #197 of 228
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dingus wrote: jsh wrote: Once she's fallen, scared, and helpless, it is 100% someone else's responsibility to make sure she gets to the ground safely and calmly. Well I don't agree with this damsel-in-distress analysis at all. Whatever happened to the notion of self-sufficiency. Wny not let her and her partners dangle in their reality-bath for a while? Let the fear wash over and through... maybe cleanse them a bit? I'm serious.... this '100% someone else's responsibility' notion just astounds me. Like someone eventually could have sauntered up to the top and showed the leas doofus how to work his belay device? Really, so the woman dangling on the rope suffers a panic attack - so what? I bet it'd teach her a valuable lesson.... DMT Dude, your missing the whole point. Screaming lady and her tard friends were jamming up the primo classic route in the area. Had to get that bitch out the way quick like, so they could get the congo line moving again. Bitch was holding up the show.
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zeke_sf
Jul 9, 2008, 8:35 PM
Post #198 of 228
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notapplicable wrote: dingus wrote: jsh wrote: Once she's fallen, scared, and helpless, it is 100% someone else's responsibility to make sure she gets to the ground safely and calmly. Well I don't agree with this damsel-in-distress analysis at all. Whatever happened to the notion of self-sufficiency. Wny not let her and her partners dangle in their reality-bath for a while? Let the fear wash over and through... maybe cleanse them a bit? I'm serious.... this '100% someone else's responsibility' notion just astounds me. Like someone eventually could have sauntered up to the top and showed the leas doofus how to work his belay device? Really, so the woman dangling on the rope suffers a panic attack - so what? I bet it'd teach her a valuable lesson.... DMT Dude, your missing the whole point. Screaming lady and her tard friends were jamming up the primo classic route in the area. Had to get that bitch out the way quick like, so they could get the congo line moving again. Bitch was holding up the show. It's a tough call. You both have two good POVs. But who is right? Hard to say, hard to say... When it comes down to it though, you really have to admire the following party for not only getting rid of the screamer (who, no doubt, would have had further issues anyway) but also for getting a little rope-cutting retribution in to boot.
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macherry
Jul 9, 2008, 9:35 PM
Post #199 of 228
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notapplicable wrote: dingus wrote: jsh wrote: Once she's fallen, scared, and helpless, it is 100% someone else's responsibility to make sure she gets to the ground safely and calmly. Well I don't agree with this damsel-in-distress analysis at all. Whatever happened to the notion of self-sufficiency. Wny not let her and her partners dangle in their reality-bath for a while? Let the fear wash over and through... maybe cleanse them a bit? I'm serious.... this '100% someone else's responsibility' notion just astounds me. Like someone eventually could have sauntered up to the top and showed the leas doofus how to work his belay device? Really, so the woman dangling on the rope suffers a panic attack - so what? I bet it'd teach her a valuable lesson.... DMT Dude, your missing the whole point. Screaming lady and her tard friends were jamming up the primo classic route in the area. Had to get that bitch out the way quick like, so they could get the congo line moving again. Bitch was holding up the show. bitch.............someone has issues
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notapplicable
Jul 9, 2008, 10:43 PM
Post #200 of 228
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macherry wrote: notapplicable wrote: dingus wrote: jsh wrote: Once she's fallen, scared, and helpless, it is 100% someone else's responsibility to make sure she gets to the ground safely and calmly. Well I don't agree with this damsel-in-distress analysis at all. Whatever happened to the notion of self-sufficiency. Wny not let her and her partners dangle in their reality-bath for a while? Let the fear wash over and through... maybe cleanse them a bit? I'm serious.... this '100% someone else's responsibility' notion just astounds me. Like someone eventually could have sauntered up to the top and showed the leas doofus how to work his belay device? Really, so the woman dangling on the rope suffers a panic attack - so what? I bet it'd teach her a valuable lesson.... DMT Dude, your missing the whole point. Screaming lady and her tard friends were jamming up the primo classic route in the area. Had to get that bitch out the way quick like, so they could get the congo line moving again. Bitch was holding up the show. bitch.............someone has issues
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